UDP is evidently not an LSE

[Christy B]

I think UDP is LSE.

[Slacker]

that's cos your Ne polr wants to be certain. that's the explanation you are looking for - certain and clear explanations that are easy to use in logic.

Being weak in a function does not always mean PoLR

[Joy]

yes, but you see, i KNOW his type is I(S)TJ.

He has the lab results to prove it!

[zenbrat]

I'm too lazy to search, but UDP once posted a topic about becoming colder (in his presentation and interaction) when good relationships are lacking in his life. No one seemed to know what he meant, but I have an LSE around who exhibits this same behavior...I understood what he meant.

This would be be indicative of Fi seeking. Dominant Te is searching for the system or process for doing something. Fi dominants are skilled in the "maintenance of personal relations" and aspiration to "humanism and kindness". Fi dominants provide LSE's with the system/process (method?) for 'loving kindness', by example.

Also, LSE is known for "aggravation of the relations", so Fi doms further provide the method and practice for maintaining harmonious relations.

Fi seems to be best absorbed by LSE from IEE (activity) or EII (dual). The Ne/Fi combo seems to be best suited for intuiting and satisfying LSE's dual seeking needs. The Se/Fi types can provide Fi but Se is too aggressive (read critical, acquisitive), which sort of lowers the frequency of the Fi transfer.

I looked up some old posts from UDP, which seemed a bit more Ti (and even Ni) but I think it was general restraint while feeling out the audience and receptiveness while considering new information. Once he became more familiar with socionics, his confidence manifested in a more natural presentation of his type/personality.

[Joy]

This would be be indicative of Fi seeking. Dominant Te is searching for the system or process for doing something. Fi dominants are skilled in the "maintenance of personal relations" and aspiration to "humanism and kindness". Fi dominants provide LSE's with the system/process (method?) for 'loving kindness', by example.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but this doesn't sound like an accurate description of Te.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[zenbrat]

Upon further consideration... I could type Ezra as LSI. He struggles with Ne/Ni, evidenced by his inability to easily groke out personalities through intuitive observation. Everything is functional, lacking correct "gut feeling" assessments. He is also extremely agitated when this is brought to his attention (polr?).

While ISTJs are capable of rapid and dogged information processing and number crunching, they often have difficulty with or simply dismiss abstract concepts without immediate concrete applications.

Unfortunately, I typically encounter him in a defensive stance, so it's difficult to get a clear Beta vs Delta vibe from him while he's taking himself so seriously. I'd have to see him in his natural state, in the absence of challenge or conflict.

[zenbrat]

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but this doesn't sound like an accurate description of Te.

I was not describing Te. I was trying to describe Fi seeking behavior by LSE.

[UDP]

My suggestion is that you may have the wrong impression about Fi-leading types. And of LSEs. I think some examples of LSEs to consider would be Bruce Willis and perhaps also Tommy Lee Jones. Personable, and down-to-earth. Generally seeming quite approachable, they don't give quite the hardass impression that you characterize yourself as.

Well...

ADMINISTRATOR
Logical subtype is efficient, dry in the contact, it is correct, has a strict form, it is unapproachable. It is not inclined to the jokes, it is serious, restrained. It is usually laconic, but if it flares up, it is difficult to stop it. It is straight-line in the behavior and the conversation. It can manifest sharpness in the judgments, because of what it has many ethical problems. There is another extreme - can keep silent, and then, kopya of offence, it will for long avoid contact.
Beskompromissen is obstinate. Sometimes it attempts to arrange collocutor to itself by intimate or sincere intonations in the voice. This makes, if most is located to the frankness, either he wants to obtain some information or service. It is reserved, over-anxious and distrustful. It does not love to speak about feelings. It prefers to be occupied by anything useful and to lead everything to the end. It is constantly stressed, to it difficult to be discharged, to be weakened. It is subjected to the unexpected flashes of anger. It is forged in the motions.

... there is Meged's Te subtype description of LSE.


As for being a hardass, I can give off that impression at times, but I really am not. Just let me have my moderately quiet relaxing places, away from drama, and I'm fine. Also, whether you believe it or not, I am an 8w9 - or if it is more palatable, just a typical guy - and I don't particularly like looking weak, so coming off as a hardass sometimes is easier. Yet, every time I go to church, this man's 3-4 year old little daughter goes out of her way to hold my hand during the our father. So my response is, I just don't like coming off as a softy, and as such, being a "hardass" is easier, particularly when I don't have relationships I can trust or count on around me. (Also, sp/sx/so).

What calms me down is people I can trust, not warm pleasant emotions or provoking emotional reactions from my harsh stances on things so as to test for emotional reaction.


Also, part of my frustration in general comes from some things people say about me, or when they start coming up with ideas that make sense to them, yet have absolutely no base in my reality - mostly some comments about me preferring Se+Fe type dramatics -- see Beta's "Group dynamics" thread. You are basically telling me that I am secretly yearning for something I have disdained and avoided my whole life, and something no one who knows me - close friends or family, would say "yeah, that's UDP's way", or "yeah, that is what UDP is looking for", or "yeah, that is how UDP acts when he is with his good friends", etc. And yet, so long as it makes sense from the perspective of the person saying it, it must be true or have relevance - and then when I don't agree with them, apparently it means this or that. The bottom line here is that some things people are saying are just so untrue and "not me" that it bothers me, so I get angry at their assertions. It is like someone claiming you did something that, in reality, you did not do.

I was paraphrasing from your own words. My memory is good, but not good enough that I remember each post verbatim. You have talked in the past about how you could never be with a T type because you need what "only an F-type" can provide. That you were unable of bringing that to a relationship yourself. It might be better for you to explain what you meant yourself.

Posts where you have spoken about yourself, here, there, all over the forum. Perhaps you can speak of why specifically "an F-type" is the best match for you.

Primarily because I just do not and never had sincere interest in people, not like how F types seem to have. They are really connected to people, they really care about people.

I have always felt like I am insufficient at really... bonding or developing relationships with people. I have come to realize that everyone is waiting for me to start talking to them, basically, so I don't mind starting up things. Basically, all of the people, save for two ENTjs, that I talk to from the forum, I have pursued myself. I am quite sure that if I don't initiate things, no one will actually talk to me. So it seems my only way to deal with my inability to relate well to people is just keep pursuing people.

So yeah, I know I need an F type because I know I need someone who is better with people. Like, someone who will remind me when to be nice or things like that. Or to not get angry, or calm me down so I don't do something stupid or damaging to other people. Or to bring be back from getting inhuman or too focused on whatever it is I am doing at the time. Someone who can look after the ethical side of things because I know I have a tendency to overlook it or get caught up in other things.

And, from a gut perspective, F types seem less threatening, some of them anyways. T types seem too heady or detached, as in, not compassionate. I know I lack compassion and empathy in some ways, so, having two people like that, or someone just like me in a relationship would be terrible and unbalanced. In general, also, I am more attracted to how F types act, I think they are cuter, more feminine.

[mimisor]

poor maybe? That would explain why it took you so long to find your true identity, UDP

[UDP]

pm

[Danielle]

I'm reluctant to contribute because my grasp of Socionics is overall pretty much in the beginning stages. But while I may not know Socionics well enough to discuss the functions in depth, I do know how I relate to people, how they impress upon me, and how they compare to other people.

That said, I don't think UDP is an LSI. That would mean he is a Ti-dominant. To me, when they state things, they don't say them as nicely and tolerantly as UDP does. Please note, when I use the words "nice" and "tolerant", I'm not saying anything about the character of the other person, just how they come across to me. It's more about me than about them. Ti-people state things as if they are very sure, and as if things are simple, as if they are "duh". I hate that. Te-dominant people explain things, perhaps over-explain sometimes. They are not usually as concise as Ti-people. Ti-ego types all come across to me as speaking with an "edge", especially when they are making an argument. To me, SLEs have a "dangerous edge", like they could hurt somebody. ILEs have a haughty edge, they'll tell you that you're stupid or what you like is stupid (I have seen them do this quite a few times). LIIs, I don't know, he's not closed enough.

UDP has a preference for seriousness that seems to fit in well with Delta but I don't associate this with Betas. I don't know what was going with the recent dispute, but that is not typical of the way UDP interacts on this forum. If it were typical, if he were constantly involved in dust-ups and dramatic conflagrations (and there is NO SHORTAGE of those here), then I could see it. But he isn't. Yet he is also very active. I don't believe that someone who is a highly active participant could hide this "true Beta nature" for so long. Especially since unlike some, I don't believe that UDP hides. Actually, I think he displays a high level of openness and honesty.

I also recently had a conversation with him and the LSE-elements did not seem forced or unnatural. He also had a habit of adapting his responses to me and I could understand his way of explaining things. One of the difficulties I've had with learning Socionics is that there are too many Ti explanations of things, which consist of really concise, sciency, definition-like explanations. Lots of lingo and assumptions that I cannot follow. I like examples and a more open type of explanation. UDP explains things like that to me. His most recent post in this thread is another example of that. Also, he talks about himself frequently. He relates things back to himself quite a bit rather than "theory talk". I don't know what that is in relation to Socionics.

[Blaze]

I'm reluctant to contribute because my grasp of Socionics is overall pretty much in the beginning stages. But while I may not know Socionics well enough to discuss the functions in depth, I do know how I relate to people, how they impress upon me, and how they compare to other people.

That said, I don't think UDP is an LSI. That would mean he is a Ti-dominant. To me, when they state things, they don't say them as nicely and tolerantly as UDP does. Please note, when I use the words "nice" and "tolerant", I'm not saying anything about the character of the other person, just how they come across to me. It's more about me than about them. Ti-people state things as if they are very sure, and as if things are simple, as if they are "duh". I hate that. Te-dominant people explain things, perhaps over-explain sometimes. They are not usually as concise as Ti-people. Ti-ego types all come across to me as speaking with an "edge", especially when they are making an argument. To me, SLEs have a "dangerous edge", like they could hurt somebody. ILEs have a haughty edge, they'll tell you that you're stupid or what you like is stupid (I have seen them do this quite a few times). LIIs, I don't know, he's not closed enough.

UDP has a preference for seriousness that seems to fit in well with Delta but I don't associate this with Betas. I don't know what was going with the recent dispute, but that is not typical of the way UDP interacts on this forum. If it were typical, if he were constantly involved in dust-ups and dramatic conflagrations (and there is NO SHORTAGE of those here), then I could see it. But he isn't. Yet he is also very active. I don't believe that someone who is a highly active participant could hide this "true Beta nature" for so long. Especially since unlike some, I don't believe that UDP hides. Actually, I think he displays a high level of openness and honesty.

I also recently had a conversation with him and the LSE-elements did not seem forced or unnatural. He also had a habit of adapting his responses to me and I could understand his way of explaining things. One of the difficulties I've had with learning Socionics is that there are too many Ti explanations of things, which consist of really concise, sciency, definition-like explanations. Lots of lingo and assumptions that I cannot follow. I like examples and a more open type of explanation. UDP explains things like that to me. His most recent post in this thread is another example of that. Also, he talks about himself frequently. He relates things back to himself quite a bit rather than "theory talk". I don't know what that is in relation to Socionics.

well, this is a rather convincing post. we may all have to re-evaluate.

[Ezra]

The point is, UDP should never be relied upon for any kind of perspective because he's liable to make shit up so it fits with what he wants to be heard by others. So don't even bother with him.

No, I don't think he makes shit up as such. He only changed his type once.

the way UDP proposes he is of a type and welcomes arguments against it, where factual data on his behavior is gathered, to me suggests Te.

He doesn't so much welcome argument as invite people to rip into him by intiating a 'debate' with a sarcastic or cutting comment about someone else's aptitude in socionics.

you're an LSI.

What's you evidence for this?

if you're not LSI then Khamelion is not an ESFP as your Cognitive Processes data matches so well.

That's based on - what I consider to be - a poorly constructed test, with six questions for each function.

I also think that in this community, Beta is described as being a lot more immature than most Betas actually are (or than they are most of the time).

Maybe we need to get some Betas to write Beta quadra descriptions?

Joy, this is a fantastic idea. First though, let me crawl out of my hovel and go and meet some people.

yes, but you see, i KNOW his type is I(S)TJ.

I know I'm SLE. You do not have access to my cognitive processes (in all their complexity), nor do you understand my many motivations for carrying out a variety of actions.

On top of this, you don't even know what functions you use, let alone your type, so how can you possibly expect to recognise functional usage in others?

Upon further consideration... I could type Ezra as LSI. He struggles with Ne/Ni, evidenced by his inability to easily groke out personalities through intuitive observation. Everything is functional, lacking correct "gut feeling" assessments. He is also extremely agitated when this is brought to his attention (polr?). Unfortunately, I typically encounter him in a defensive stance, so it's difficult to get a clear Beta vs Delta vibe from him while he's taking himself so seriously. I'd have to see him in his natural state, in the absence of challenge or conflict.

My natural state is challenge and conflict.

[zenbrat]

My natural state is challenge and conflict.

A constant state of agitation is pretty typical of LSE. LSI's are far more relaxed, even in the presence of challenge and conflict. I agree with Expat's typing of the Leonidas character from 300 as ISTj - hard resistence only appears when he's directly challenged, otherwise he's chill. LSE's tend to maintain a state of ready and actually create conflict via ever-present, low-level anger (albeit unintentionally).

[Ezra]

A constant state of agitation is pretty typical of LSE. LSI's are far more relaxed, even in the presence of challenge and conflict. I agree with Expat's typing of the Leonidas character from 300 as ISTj - hard resistence only appears when he's directly challenged, otherwise he's chill. LSE's tend to maintain a state of ready and actually create conflict via ever-present, low-level anger (albeit unintentionally).

I didn't say that is my state. I just said that my natural state is confrontation. Actually, the way you've just described the LSI sounds a lot like me come to think of it. It's like a behind-the-scenes readiness. You remember the 8w9 descriptions, zenbrat, about the sleeping volcano? That essentially resonates with me.

[Gilly]

well, this is a rather convincing post. we may all have to re-evaluate.

lol

[Ezra]

maybe it's an Se inviting for simultaneous action or action function of perhaps + block, of child origin if to consider it's playfulness in calling. a grownup block would not perhaps be playful as a starter. maybe not though, it's just a semi-chaotic presumption. anyway, ENTJ or ENFJ?
i'd say his orientation towards people and having people as basically the "immersion world" dominates over objective businesses, dealings, work and money-making, so i'd currently, personally can say his type from this alone is ENFJ.

You truly think he is Fe-leading? Can you compare him to Kristiina? Or the new girl? Or onetreehilluver? Can you (because it is generally possible to for mirrors) see any of him in any of the IEIs on this forum? I think not.

Besides, I don't understand your reasoning. You need to decide firstly on Fe/Ti or Te/Fi, which you've clearly not done, because you seem to think both Te (LIE) and Fe (EIE) dominance are possibilities for UDP.

[Ms. Kensington]

why does dee need to decide the base function first to type someone? from the post you quoted seems like he's thinking from all the impressions he's gathered there is creative Ni and then from the rest of his impressions it seems that there aren't the markers of a Te dominant to him, so he's going with the other option with Ni creative, which would be ENFj.

About Fi doms... my experience with them is emotionally charged but that is probably because i am an Ti/Fe type and I feel a lot of tension if there is no Fe expression of feelings. I don't think that the Fi types I have talked with just say what is bothering them when i push them to tell me what's wrong. I have experience with an INFj, ISFj, and ESFp. I have indirect experience with an ENFp. That's the huge mark of an Fi type. They will withdraw when something's the matter with the relationship. I don't think they use emotional language less than Fe types, but they will take facts at face value when discussing the issue.

[implied]

all threads are bumped for good reasons!

[Kristiina]

ewwwww UDP is not LSI. His approach to life is very odd to me and not in a good way. Plus he's not consistent. Changed his type a couple of times and his entire world changed. T/F program makes sense, but definitely more Ni-PoLR than anything else.

[Ezra]

why are the Ti-leading types the most popular alternatives to LSE for him?

Because of the way his whole world changed when his type did. His entire perspective on life suddenly went from consistent with LII to 'consistent' with LSE. Ti types are great at getting the consistency right. I bet he worked really hard to maintain his image of LSE, unlike how cringeworthily unsuccessful he has been to pull of a sexual 8w9. Or is it self-preservationist? I can't remember. It doesn't fit any how.

[Kristiina]

Because of the way his whole world changed when his type did. His entire perspective on life suddenly went from consistent with LII to 'consistent' with LSE. Ti types are great at getting the consistency right. I bet he worked really hard to maintain his image of LSE, unlike how cringeworthily unsuccessful he has been to pull of a sexual 8w9. Or is it self-preservationist? I can't remember. It doesn't fit any how.

does not exclude ESTj

[Ezra]

does not exclude ESTj

No, you're right, it doesn't. I have more of a bone to pick with him over 8w9 than I do over LSE.

[Kristiina]

hahaha, good, I'd tell you to forget about enneagram in a socionics forum, but - oh well - if it keeps you distracted from convincing UDP that he's LSI, you should focus all your attention to that 8w9 typing.

[Joy]

why are the Ti-leading types the most popular alternatives to LSE for him?

Because for a while now he's seemed ST, and I think most people think he's clearly a rational type.

[Joy]

(Oh yeah, and some people think he's LII, probably because it seemed to make sense back when he thought he was LII.)

[Ezra]

hahaha, good, I'd tell you to forget about enneagram in a socionics forum, but - oh well - if it keeps you distracted from convincing UDP that he's LSI, you should focus all your attention to that 8w9 typing.

The Enneagram is interesting to talk about, especially with individuals who aren't a part of EIDB.

My problems with UDP revolve around what I believe to be complete and utter pretense on his behalf. Pretense is something I despise, unless it's acted out with a touch of irony.

[Ms. Kensington]

ewwwww UDP is not LSI. His approach to life is very odd to me and not in a good way. Plus he's not consistent. Changed his type a couple of times and his entire world changed. T/F program makes sense, but definitely more Ni-PoLR than anything else.

lol

this may not be helpful but UDP reminds me a little of Raine Maida of Our Lady Peace



second from right





i don't think they are the same type though.. i had loosely thought Raine was an ENFp. Strangely he is looking ENFj or ISFj in the last pic. but in motion, enfp.

[Ezra]

Don't type UDP based on those pictures. However, I do agree with you; I see some resemblance there.

Can I just say that this thread is an old one, and it makes me look very dogmatic. The latest one on UDP has actually given some more interesting results.