Sorry, but this is just the kind of thing that makes an ENTp run away screaming.
Sorry, but this is just the kind of thing that makes an ENTp run away screaming.
maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
go ask the frog what the scorpion knows
ILE have no weak.
D-SEI 9w1
This is me and my dual being scientific together
There good fun, and fun to be around, but you always get that feeling you can never be sure that they mean what they say, and also that its just a matter of time before they get bored with you and move on to someone or something else.
Its the sort of thing that stops them developing real friends, and I don't understand that.
maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
go ask the frog what the scorpion knows
Okay, it is very very simple. Fi POLR means that Fi takes the least precedence in one's thinking. ENTp's do not readily evaluate the morals of what they are doing. I have seen ENTp's do things that are immoral and not even realize it, such as convincing other people to do something upon jumping to some half-assed conclusion.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
--Theodore Roosevelt
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
-- Mark Twain
"Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
-- Confucius
I don't think ENTps ignore morals. Rather, the ENTps I've known tend to develop their internal ethical systems to which they compare their actions. So while ENTps generally try to act ethical by their own standards, they don't think about the fact that their moral system is different than that of society, which causes them to unwittingly act in ways that others see as unethical. This is different than just ignoring ethics altogether.
The flip side of this ethical independence is that because ENTps tend to develop their own internal moral codes and remain oblivious, indifferent, more even contemptuous towards the ethical code of society at large, they are more easily able to modify their ethical code to justify unethical behavior in their own eyes ... to some extent, that is.
delta nf (?) ... 4w5 (?)
I disagree.
Everyone knows their society's version of right and wrong, however, it is one's own choice to follow the moral code.
Maybe some types are more likely to follow these ethical standards because they never question whether it makes sense to them.
Ethical standards are just opinions.
If something seems right to me, and I can back it up with logic, then it is right.
maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
go ask the frog what the scorpion knows
Ok, it's not that they don't know that what they're doing doesn't fit in with society's ethical standards. It's that they really don't care. I agree 100% with what you're saying about society's moral standards and logically questioning the supposed dichotomy between "right" and "wrong" -- but I think ENTps sometimes don't see how other people will react to this independence of thought and can end up in sticky situations because of it.
Mind you, I'm not saying this ethical independence is bad. Personally, I think if everyone could logically conclude the right thing to do on a situational basis, the world would be a lot better off.
Maybe this is just me + the other ENTps I have known. It seems type-related though.
delta nf (?) ... 4w5 (?)
Lefty
ENFJ
"I'm Sick of Old Men Dreaming Up Wars for Young Men To Die In," George McGovern.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
--Theodore Roosevelt
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
-- Mark Twain
"Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
-- Confucius
Don't necessarily view this as a weakness in myself. I constantly evaluate the morals of the things I do to the point where it makes me very sad and somewhat depresses me. Like I'll constantly tell people rediculously immoral ways of getting out of situations... but I'll never let them go through with it, and I'll pseudo get angry at anyone who takes my somewhat sarcastic 'ridiculous' advice at face value.
Suomea
I find myself having to reassure that I understand what people say quite often. As if it were not first described in a straight forward logical way, I would have to ask for clarification.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
--Theodore Roosevelt
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
-- Mark Twain
"Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
-- Confucius
pretty sure they're immortal.
I have a dental cavity. It can kill you.
And four infected wisdom teeth.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
I have total mastery over sensory domain. For example: I fell down two times today while walking. I have amazingly good reflexes though that appear from nowhere in crisis without that it would have been at least 4 and possibly ended up in much worse condition.
While I look (at least) intellectually confident person, I have huge problems establishing it IRL. OTOH I'm so scattered that I don't give out lot of confidence in maintenance (which is true).
Connecting to people. That's a freaking challenge. It's not a two way street it's one way. While many may consider me nice, entertaining and pleasant it's still one way.
The front can be very deceiving. People don't see it at first the second time they are totally baffled.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
ILEs have difficulty producing a product even though they usually know what needs to be done and how to generally do it, and may have produced the initial ideas; when it comes to actual implementation, things frequently go off the rails. They're so distractible but often blame others or unforeseen circumstances (certainly not themselves) for their distractions, and then try to get others to do the leg work that they should have been doing all along. The organizations that they run are somewhat like ships without rudders so the people on the oars have to really pull together.
a.k.a. I/O
Last edited by Rebelondeck; 03-31-2017 at 01:27 PM.
I don't look upon these limitations in processing as impairments that prevent people from being productive or doing things; humankind is far more resilient than that and workarounds are usually found. However, all people have to keep in check certain aspects of themselves; otherwise, things will go off the rails. I'm socially awkward in an LII-ish sort of way but my job forces me to meet with countless numbers of people on a daily basis; if I hid in my office, like is my natural tendency, my career would be over. I have seen many examples where types have succumbed to their type-limitations not having found their workarounds; and, indeed, all types do need to compensate albeit differently - the primary key to a solution is to first acknowledge the limitation.
a.k.a. I/O
The legwork part is largely Fi PoLR combined with Si.When logic rules then making relational connections is largely seen as unethical procedure. At least to me it is. Playing favorites is really disgusting. Universally applied logical high horse. Atmosphere and such is kind of important, though which is Fe part.
So many times heard things like: That's great improvement.
Second time: Wow.
Third time: Do something about it, or I will.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
yeah.
I have thought out several systems in my head. Sometimes when I start the required expertise goes beyond my skills so it is easy to drop...
This guy was successful version of ILE (although he married ESI)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spede_Pasanen
Well not among critics (ILIs)
Last edited by The Reality Denialist; 04-03-2017 at 05:17 PM.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
Well once someone in authority position offered their help. I lashed out very intensely because I saw it as really unfair regarding rest of the world and turned it down immediately.
I don't actually know how to turn this around. At least I'm not corrupt like some valuers.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
I've found that the N-types seem to focus a lot on unfairness but the aspect that kills a lot of relationships and careers is how one reacts to it. It's the preachers against the unfairness that seem to lose over the ones that take advantage of it. Many IXE are shunned as too idealistic for a world that demands pragmatic adherence to party lines. At a retirement luncheon, the guest of honour said: "To be successful around here, you have to be blind; if one is not blind, you have to act blind; and if you act blind long enough, you become blind." I think the retiree was a N-type but a practical one because he survived.......
a.k.a. I/O
I noted that when one works in government and government-funded institutions, selective blindness to unfairness is absolutely necessary for ones survival. Most civil servants have an added complication to their work; high-level politics from elected officials trickles down to the lowest level; and this is why these institutions become so inefficient.
a.k.a. I/O
My ILE cp6 professor for media change gets caught up in finding opportunities to criticize and distrust a lot, spotting Ti inaccuracies (which is superb!) but not seeing the brighter side. He can make jokes that nobody finds funny, which ruins the popularity he could otherwise have because he's competent and upbeat. He's only semi-good at bonding with people, his seminar has low attendance rates. Because of his `paranoid´ character, people judge him and are missing out on some seriously good content. He has problems keeping up with his appearance and health, he is dramatic and hectic.
it's hard to pinpoint weaknesses in ILEs because Ne (spotting what's missing) and Ti (detached analysis) grant them the ability to analyze themselves objectively and nail down any and all perceived weaknesses in themselves. they usually employ "smoke and mirrors" tactics to conceal their weaknesses. if concealing them doesn't work, they find a way to spin their weaknesses into strengths, ergo "owning" them.
prone to debilitating depression if they lack proper socialization + creative and intellectual outlets
boredom is equivalent to death. where others may seek out help from friends and family in trying times, ILEs rarely, if ever, do. they will isolate themselves, inadvertently burning bridges along the way, and their capacity for self-care will drop down to zero. cue mental and physical illnesses.
weakness in volitional sensing & excessive pride resulting in unrealized dreams and goals
they're disinclined from using force to get what they want so, if they find something (or someone) they want, they have to utilize indirect methods (tricks, hints, and deceit, albeit not necessarily malicious in nature) and patiently wait it out, but, if that doesn't work, they have one of two options:
a. reluctantly use force, which throws them into an uncomfortable state of agitation, and beat themselves up for it afterwards
b. sit back and do nothing, feel "cheated" because it's not in their nature to selflessly give w/o any return, feel agitated and resentful
emotionally manipulative, occasionally abusive
when they're in an unhealthy state, they will cry, guilt-trip, blackmail, all that jazz (see: 5 y/o throwing a temper tantrum)
social pariahs
they want nothing more than to be liked and admired by others, but their strong sense of self (autonomy) & deeply ingrained set of principles may obstruct their ability to do so effectively. imagine living in a country where everyone except you can speak the native language. no one understands you, and, on top of that, there are strict laws in place prohibiting everything that you are and aspire to be. so, it's like that... but worse.
that'll do for now. they're beautiful, mysterious wells of endless potential and bullshit. they're some of my favorite people, but, without a consistent source of inspiration and the right type of caring, their devil-may-care attitude will whittle down until eventually they're shells of their former selves.
Last edited by wasp; 04-07-2017 at 11:54 AM.
ENTp's have a tendency to mis-value thoughts and objects that occur in reality. They may either overestimate or underestimate an obstacle when achieving whatever goal.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
--Theodore Roosevelt
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
-- Mark Twain
"Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
-- Confucius
When is it going to click that you are Beta ST?