Results 1 to 23 of 23

Thread: why information aspects are valuable in understanding information elements

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE
    Posts
    24,507
    Mentioned
    60 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default why information aspects are valuable in understanding information elements

    It's impossible to separate one information element from all of the others when one is using it, so it's extremely difficult impossible to define it in and of itself.
    SEE

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

  2. #2
    Ezra's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    9,168
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    What's the difference between an Information Aspect and an Information Element?

  3. #3
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE
    Posts
    24,507
    Mentioned
    60 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I was just thinking "maybe I should put the definitions of information element and information aspect in my sig".

    Information Element: A mental process. Something someone does. Something that's either strong or weak in a person. Something valued or unvalued by a person. A person perceiving or understanding something.

    Information Aspect: Something which could be perceived or understood. Conversations about of Information Aspects discuss an aspect in and of itself, free from the perspective of any individual and outside of mental processes.
    SEE

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

  4. #4
    Exodus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    8,397
    Mentioned
    325 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Well, this thread has made one new point: there is no good example of the difference, which is because there isn't one.

  5. #5
    Rick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Former USSR (global nomad)
    TIM
    IEE
    Posts
    2,050
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Information aspects are what is perceived by psychic functions.

    Maybe information aspects are irrelevant to introverts... That's why Augusta found them necessary, and Jung did not.

    They are also irrelevant to most of socionics, but become relevant when applying socionics ideas to anything outside the psyche and psychology.

    You can avoid them in most cases by speaking of "manifestations of psychic functions" rather than "information aspects." In many cases this is more correct.

    But if you say, for instance, "he's producing lots of Fe," you can't call this "Fe" a "function." A function is a mental/psychic entity.

    Maybe I'm splitting hairs from thehotelambush's perspective, but if this is the case, then please provide an alternate Ti system that is consistent and better than the existing one

    Note: I am using the Jungian word "function" these days rather than "IM element." It turns out this is what is used in socionic journal publications rather than Augusta's original terminology.
    It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.

  6. #6
    Exodus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    8,397
    Mentioned
    325 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick View Post
    Information aspects are what is perceived by psychic functions.

    Maybe information aspects are irrelevant to introverts... That's why Augusta found them necessary, and Jung did not.
    Good point - except I would say it's information "elements" that are unnecessary. Aspects go in functions and produce type. It doesn't get much simpler than that. Creating another name for an aspect-in-a-function makes it seem like it's a totally different thing when it's really not.

  7. #7
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE
    Posts
    24,507
    Mentioned
    60 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic View Post
    Joy, why not just information elements the subjective form of functions, and information aspects the objective form? Seems to condense it pretty well.
    I had considered that, but thought it may cause argument and confusion. I suppose everything does though in this crowd.

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Good point - except I would say it's information "elements" that are unnecessary. Aspects go in functions and produce type. It doesn't get much simpler than that. Creating another name for an aspect-in-a-function makes it seem like it's a totally different thing when it's really not.
    I agree. While information aspects are technically a consequence of information elements because they're defined by the existence of human perception, it is true that an "information element" is nothing more than an aspect-in-a-function. It's good to give it a name though. That way you can talk about it without making it specific to a certain type (though... perhaps it ought to be?).
    SEE

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

  8. #8
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE
    Posts
    24,507
    Mentioned
    60 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    It's impossible to separate one information element from all of the others when one is using it, so it's extremely difficult impossible to define it in and of itself.
    For example, try to give an example of how you use an information element without using information from any other information element in your description.
    SEE

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

  9. #9
    Ezra's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    9,168
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Half understood. Examples of IM Elements (Information Elements, correct?) are Se, Te, Fi and Ni.

    What is an example of an Information Aspect?

  10. #10
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE
    Posts
    24,507
    Mentioned
    60 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Half understood. Examples of IM Elements (Information Elements, correct?) are Se, Te, Fi and Ni.

    What is an example of an Information Aspect?


    I'm not asking for a list of information elements, I'm asking for descriptions of each.

    (As far as whether IM Element are information elements, I don't know for certain. I don't like to use the terms interchangeably. Translation issues make it difficult to know for certain. I think Rick said they're the same, but when I was reading translations of things Augusta wrote, it sounded like IM Element was used interchangeably with both information element and information aspect. So yeah, I don't know.)
    SEE

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

  11. #11
    Snomunegot munenori2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Kansas
    TIM
    Introvert sp/sx
    Posts
    7,742
    Mentioned
    34 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Half understood. Examples of IM Elements (Information Elements, correct?) are Se, Te, Fi and Ni.

    What is an example of an Information Aspect?
    Would these most generally be objects and fields? What is actually perceived by the person? Joy's description of it being "free from the perspective of any individual and outside of mental processes" makes me think that it might just be objects, or maybe objective fields. Where do subjective fields fit into the big picture?
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

  12. #12
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE
    Posts
    24,507
    Mentioned
    60 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Would these most generally be objects and fields? What is actually perceived by the person? Joy's description of it being "free from the perspective of any individual and outside of mental processes" makes me think that it might just be objects, or maybe objective fields. Where do subjective fields fit into the big picture?
    If I understand what you're saying, this is a question that I've wondered as well. If I tried to really get into it right now, I'd just ramble a whole lot. I'll come back to this. For now I'll just say yes and no.
    SEE

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

  13. #13
    liveandletlive's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Posts
    1,290
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    hmmmm so could an example for my Se be...

    Aspect: Being aware of the current fads and trends in fashion.

    Element: Using this awareness in creating outfits and my wardrobe thinking about what would flatter me and also what is "in" at the moment.

    ????
    ESFp-Fi sub
    6w7 sx/so/sp

  14. #14
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,858
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    i believe this statement is as false as diamonds current low cost.
    Seconded.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •