Te and watching out for others
Have you noticed this to be true? I used to attribute it to Si, yet recently i've changed my mind since I've not found this common with alphas. I've had both ILI and LIE sorta watch out for me, ask me what kind of deals i'm getting from various places/people (employment or else) and alert me if they felt it to be not great or else tell me if they found it a-ok.
Have you noticed/experienced this? To me it's important to have this in my life.
I can't speak from experience, but I'd imagine Si would still be the 'momfriend' when it comes to caring. Really, caring and its meaning fit Si-egos too well.
Te is another kind of caring though. It's caring about you the same way that a superior in a company would care about its employees, and that is in the "Don't mess up, here's what you have to do in order to keep your job and have success in the workplace." sense. ILIs and LIEs that care and watch out for you still seem somewhat cold to me. It's like a general watching after his troops, not like a mother taking care of her child.
“I want the following word: splendor, splendor is fruit in all its succulence, fruit without sadness. I want vast distances. My savage intuition of myself.”
― Clarice Lispector
ILI's and LIE's spend a lot of time watching out for future threats in the environment, and set a pretty low priority on their own comfort and health.
We're the guys who will bust our asses to get the villagers to abandon their comfortable homes and move to some new place where they will have to rebuild, because YOU ARE ALL LIVING UNDER AN ACTIVE VOLCANO, CAN'T YOU SEE THAT, AND SACRIFICING VIRGINS IS NOT AN EFFECTIVE STRATEGY FOR LONG TERM SURVIVAL.
I've worked with people before who just want to maximize success today, mostly by going with what is presently working and not rocking the boat. Contrarily, I've always focused on how the company (whether I owned it or not) was going to make money next year, ever since I understood how companies compete and make money and survive in the long run (which was sometime in my second or third year of working).
I think Te is cognizant of the need to create value otherwise there's very little reason to associate. that value can be in the form of emotional bonds and other intangibles,but the idea is there has to be some value of some kind or people go their separate ways. in this sense Te types very much want to provide value to people they in turn value and receive value from, and this often manifests in pragmatic concern and advice, because that is the form of value they are good at finding and creating. in other words, they exude Te in the presence of people they value and you know they value them because they choose to associate, Te is their natural way of giving back, i.e. reciprocity. it flows from care in the most general sense
I agree with you, yeah, something about this sounds true. Could you expend on why?Originally Posted by Bertrand
well I think the more rational the Te type is the more they operate with the goal in mind, and an idea of how much they're willing to sacrifice to achieve it. at least with gammas anway, so a precondition to associating with someone is an idea of the value of the time expenditure in doing so. thus if they're even talking to you it insinuates a valuation has been placed and motivated them, this is in some sense just the logical side to Fi, which is to say it is the logical consequence of an introverted ethical stance toward a thing: "should." so if they view the world this way they naturally expect others to act similarly thus if they view someone as worth talking to, it creates the implication that they in turn need to provide something of value for the other person, to draw them in, to make it worthwhile from their side. this is a relationship where people mutually support one another. cynically it could be viewed as an exchange, but its not binding, its more freely undertaken and more structured in terms of utility to each individual then also to both as a whole. when you describe it in cold terms it sounds kind of weird, but its just the logical view of the situation. there is an ethical romantic side to it as well, but that side is excluded if you want a purely logical description. I think I had to realize this about Te types is they sound really lizardman if you don't keep in mind logical description of the world in terms of case and work and aim is really dry. kind of ferengi like. but on the other hand if you look to what they actually do then you see the human side of it, and I think that's understood within gamma, but looks weird from the outside, whereas like in beta they really like to put lipstick on everything or whatnot. I actually think your question is very deep and this is a very surface level answer but it has to do with extroverted logic as valued organizing principle in viewing the world, which the way I think about it is the strong valued judging function in the quadra is how that quadra naturally thinks in terms of causality. so like shared narratives make sense within quadra because everyone is implicitly on the same page as to how cause and effect works, and this is why they can understand eachother without extra effort. but other quadras naturally view cause and effect differently so this is the basis of so much misunderstanding
in short Fi views the world in terms of individual reciprocity ("how would I feel if that happened to me--what would I want were I in that person's shoes, etc") so if you view the world in terms of time and other resources weighed against costs of doing anything and everything, as soon as you want to deal with someone you know in order to get whatever it is you want you need to make it worthwhile for them. so you need to bring some value otherwise why would the other person bother. in this sense they focus on doing exactly that because otherwise they kind of know they're going to end up alone and unless theyre ok with that (I know some ILI who actually go the other way and just say its not worth it, and live mostly solitary lives), they focus on creating value because they recognize that as the causal principle that governs their future stretching forth from their past. in other words value shapes the causal pathway into the future and so they try to direct it to go where they want via creating and leveraging value. this is the more Ni/Se side of things, whereas in delta it becomes more collectivist in that individual wants are weighed more in light of how it effects everyone and that feeds back into the cost benefit analysis, so you get this kind of moralizing where they tend to be more likely to talk about how its not ok to want some things because of how it effects the ecosystem etc, this focus on the bigger picture I think leads to relaxation of initiative and so on
Disgusting. That just makes me feel like being used while the person is smugly blind to it and the person is getting 100% and me 0% while all the time saying that its 50/50. Yep, Te is definitely my polr.
@Bertrand that's a great post. I've also noticed what you are describing and that's why in Gamma the NTs are full of advice one way or another they try to add value that way to the interaction. One thing I'm not reconciling is this idea of Delta being collectivist - it seems strange for an aristocratic quadra (?) but maybe somewhere in the readings of Ti description of aristocracy i've got the concept mixed up. Are you attributing that collectivism to Ne/Si? It would be a bit strange - i recall a big contributor here once saying that Ne and Si are the most individualist (selfish??) functions. What do you make of that?
Te is about constant collaboration with anyone and everyone and anything that works, or could, and anything that can be built, or done.
well, aristocracy has connotations of the few elevating themselves above the rest, which in turn implies a kind of egotism and therefore individualism, but I think what socionics means by aristocracy is more "vertical communication" as a consequence of sensing + logic being blocked together. what this means is both beta and delta are more aware of disparity in status vis-a-vis their interlocutor so like it influences their ITR. strat talks about this in terms of beta "complex of the six" and delta "complex of clipped wings" both are complexes revolving around vertical communication (i.e.: hierarchically aware). in beta its more tinged with Se and Ti/Fe is the most hierarchical function, so they're afraid of being sent out or executed, whereas in delta its subdued but still there and colored by Ne, so it becomes more about elevating yourself spiritually over people, talking to them as if "from a height" i.e.: somewhat condescendingly, because of your own ideas on self development. people can probably see that in me to some extent.
victor "el diablo" gulenko has a bunch of good articles on the topic, but keep in mind he's model G
https://socioniks.net/article/?id=165
https://socioniks.net/article/?id=19
https://socioniks.net/article/?id=27
Se/Ne diverge both in terms of beta v delta i.e. aristocrats, and then gamma v delta i.e. objectivists (Fi/Te), so its complex to say exactly how "collectivism" spins out exactly, but its something like democracy is not exactly collectivism: its fundamentally premised on one man one vote, so there's a kind of individualism at the center of it. whereas "collectivism" has connotations of the individual being subordinated to the needs of the group, so it can actually be anti democratic, even fascist, if the collective demands it. this is one of those things where we assume democracy is collectivistic because of how well we've been told it functions for the benefit of all, but in political theory language its actually individualistic with things like communism being "real collectivism".. I think Ne/Si is more hedonistic than Se/Ni and sometimes that gets conflated with individualism too, because Fi has a certain individualistic bent you can see how delta is a blend that doesn't tilt strongly one way
most democratic: alpha (in the socionics sense, alpha is pre-democratic by historical analogy: family based, but this is actually the most "democratic" in a psychological rather than political sense--borders on anarchy--peaceful native american tribes and various island cultures)
most aristocratic (collectivist): beta (feudalistic/monarchistic/theocratic/idealogical, which is really just secular theocracy)
leans democratic: gamma (classical liberalism, industrial revolution through the present in US--China has been transforming into a gamma society this century)
leans aristocratic: delta (socialist federations by historical analogy--Switzerland, Norway)
delta is more muted because the aristocratic elements are tempered by respect for individuals via Fi and heightened awareness to the outer situation (Ne), rather than emphasizing pure power, so its sort of a moderate collectivism. its like the socialist scandinavian countries, not north korea
Last edited by Bertrand; 03-17-2018 at 01:37 AM.
Good point, but i think those are rather alpha, tho not meaning to divert the focus of the conversation lol. What do you make of alpha notion of democracy?
I think of alpha as being the most psychologically and ethically naive to evil quadra and I don't think europe is really there yet because of their proximity to the horrors of the 20th century, although I do think it could be coming and maybe some countries have one foot in. I think development is way slower than people suspect, such that gamma still has life in it yet and delta could go on for God knows how long (in the US and Europe). I think the best example of alpha societies are ones that predate development into beta societies, not ones that have already turned over from delta... its tempting to think just like how there's all 16 types represented here that theres all 4 quadra represented on the contemporary world stage, but I don't think that's really true. I don't think a predominantly alpha europe could withstand fundamentalist Islam and other aggressive forces (Russia too). There may be pockets in there somewhere, but it would be like a Wes Anderson movie where its a relatively ensconced group of eccentrics. that's just my opinion though, I'm sure it could stand to be better informed. im no expert on europe
lo freaking el
so true Islam would slaughter an alpha nation.
Yes. My Te-Si boss is like that...it's actually good if you have no idea of what to do with your life or you want some advice from them which helps.
However as for me, i kinda not like being observed and shit. I mean, i think it's not a big deal i guess..
My only problem is that sometimes i do stuffs that's against their own standards.
You know, Te-si don't like inconsistentencies tbh. I'm a living inconsistency so having around a Te-si is not good for me.
I quit my job to be a hobo - that's something a Te-si user would never understand.
This is the fall back career for IEEs.
No. I will be back. I need to have a life. Not just toxic work.
I already developed skills. So, i can return back.
I've noticed that LIEs in particular do what you're describing. I still think you're IEI btw Delilah. If Te is your polr then your need for it to be supplemented in your life is highest of all.
Good for you, @idontgiveaf. When you don’t like work, quit. You can always get a better job, especially if the one you have sucks. Whenever I found myself regretting the time I spent at work for too many days, I knew it was time to improve my life.
I recognize the specific behavior you're talking about as Te/Ni but "watching out for others" would be the Ni part. The Te part is helping people with resource management (aka getting bargains) and practical things. Strong Ni and Ne are more associated with putting things into a bigger picture that might not be obvious to a casual consumer. Arguably it will also have an element of Se if it means being aware of the power dynamics of the situation (like, that guy was obviously trying to rip you off and you shouldn't fall for it).
I don't know a lot of Gamma NTs but I definitely get a lot of advice from Delta STs. They seem to want to make sure I'm making wise decisions and not getting ripped off or taken advantage of.
7w6 9w1 2w3 sx/? RLUAI(rl|U|ai)
If you turn around it, its a Fi valuing Te type so the expression would be with the Te.
U gonna regret that shit
Yes that's true. It's like wasting your life to be miserable.
Having a job is not the solution or it doesn't make you a complete person
Learning to get out of bullshit makes me a healthy person i am.
I never regret quitting jobs.
And I'm gonna be a hobo. Traveling around which excites me
I was thinking of this just the other day. It used to be that I would actually consider it a favour done to someone if i extended them the exclusivity of a one-on-one interaction. Well not so much a favour rather than i'd honestly feel upset if they didn't reciprocate in the same fashion. To me that was a lot of value on my part placed on the other individual even if the factor of time (like time invested in the person) didn't cross my mind as an investment per se (i guess that's the Te part of things). I've enjoyed your posts on this thread
I know LSE who does what I describe too, so it does include delta STs imo and experiences. Good luck with everything
IMO you idealize the alpha quadra. You seem to have created a vision for it, but based on what? On alpha literature certainly, since most socionics comes to us from alpha. It's typical for alpha to blow their own horn.
Drawing from experience, i can say alpha people i've known in real life seem far removed from this idealized notion you have espoused. I have ESE landlady, a very quarrelsome individual, has gotten into fights with me various times and for reasons that she shouldn't since I'm well in my rights as tenant. Very meddling. I know LII who works in retail and she is not exactly the smartest person in the room either, even if literature makes it out to be LIIs are all rocket scientists. I dunno, just saying that you seem to have created a notion of alpha that doesn't well match with experience.
Of course, those countries we speak off could very well be something else (type-quadra-function-wise), yet it wouldn't be for the reasons you list. cheers
true, I can see how it reads that way, but internally I don't feel like I idealize them. I actually think maybe I look down on them a bit, so maybe me trying hard not to be condescending swings too far in the opposite direction of being too fawning or idealistic. I think of alpha as childlike in the purest sense. like alpha is hopelessly naive, even the really smart ones, it just manifests in different ways. its like they don't have any pathos, which is some sense the goal, but you have to be aware of whats worth fretting over to begin with, and its like they just skip to be happy without actually perceiving the threat to begin with, which is sort of like cheating. its like how Nietzsche says no on praises the dog with no teeth for not biting. perhaps this is why beta swings so far in the other direction, to prove the point about teeth, and also because its highly effective is corralling alpha into whatever structure beta wants. like many administrators, mid level managers of all kinds, preachers, etc all seem like betas just focused on bullying and extracting value from alphas and its like alphas just feel grateful for being allowed to associate with them because they view them as cool or desirable on some level. i dunno, the whole dynamic is weird. in the end I feel like the truth is distributed across all 16 perspectives, and each one gives up something to gain something else. I would not choose alpha for myself, because it feels like they ignore most of the meaning of life in order to extract certain benefits that while useful to the collective make them very much like fat cows oblivious to their fate. that said I like alphas because we need all types to provide an overall context for every other type and I do think they're sincerely happy so I think maybe there's some deep truth to reincarnation where its like they're in a certain phase where they're just mostly happy and oblivious and good for them, because there's enough suffering to go around. I feel like alpha is where people go on vacation in the death and rebirth cycle before they end up back in the shit. in that sense there's a hedonistic ideal in there, but I can recognize it lacks something as well
I feel like if I idealize any quadra its gamma because I see them doing the hard work of turning things over from beta, and it requires a shitload of sacrifice and effort to resist and overcome such an entrenched and dogmatic mentality. I have a LIE instructor and you can see he likes when I say stuff but he's working on fundamentally different problems psychologically, so when I throw out ideas, I feel like he gets the same sense of I get with alpha, which is Im cutting to the end without doing the work in the middle. you can tell that to turn things over from beta you have to in some sense be willing to beat them at their own game, but because I benefit from being on the far side of beta, I can fundamentally ignore that step, and its a very difficult step I'm privileged to ignore because I couldn't be so imaginative and spacey if I were responsible for that. in that sense I think LIE both envies and looks down on me. I can see the truth of that though and respect them very much
@Bertrand imo it's possible to do quite a bit of damage even without awareness of evil, so to speak, as you say for alpha.
yeah totally, like mad scientists or gossipy busybodies. but its something less dignified than evil its more like negligence or recklessness rather than intentional.
ignorance is bliss, maybe there's something deeply evil to that proposition. it does seem pernicious sort of like cypher in the matrix
Last edited by Bertrand; 03-21-2018 at 04:56 AM.
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