it depends on the arguement, what it's about, if i know anything about it, and who i can egg on safely. usually i'll take a side and egg people on. i like doing that. otherwise i'll speak my side of it, until they either agree, cave in, or give up - until i win, one way or the other.Originally Posted by admin
For all of you INTJs and INTPs out there, what do you do when people start argueing?? I for one shut the hell up and get out of there. POLRin action.
-Jimmy INTJ
Damnit, STOP REVIVING MY OLD TOPICS!!!
Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)
Cone, do you say this because you believe your old writings to be wrong?
It would piss me off too. Strange INTp thing? I don't like when old things get brought up.Cone, do you say this because you believe your old writings to be wrong?
Poor Cone.
Yes, very much so.Cone, do you say this because you believe your old writings to be wrong?
Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)
INTp & INTj: hidden agenda confusion
INTj hidden agenda stems from, Si, and is described as being concerned with being healthy and left at that in pretty much all socionics material. But
INTp's hidden agenda stems from, Fi, and is described as the desire to love. I wonder if INTjs could appear to have the hidden agenda "to love" when in actuality, what they deeply desire is the physical comfort that tends to accompany romantic relationships. I've read a few socionics articles that offer the hidden agenda as a means of settling type disputes but I think this method is just as uncertain in the case of INTj and INTp.
I(N)Tj
Re: INTp & INTj: hidden agenda confusion
If you aren't healthy, you're going to be experiencing all sorts of unwanted sensations.INTj hidden agenda stems from
INTJs are always looking for a conclusion to something. An end. The INTp always looks to the horizon, which they hope goes on forever.INTp's hidden agenda stems from
There is no way Bill is an INTp or INTj. Most likely an ENFp or ENTp.
The easiest way for me to determine if I am INTp or INTj is to focus on NiTe or TiNe. Does T support N or does N support T. NiTe seems to be extremely logical on first impressions, but the more you get to know them, the more you see the N. TiNes seem odd at first (maybe weird), but, the more you get to know them, the more logical they seem.
I still don't get the difference.
socionics will take me a long time.
It's some very bizarre puzzle. To my type, I want to make it more clear. I cannot believe that the visual symbols and descriptions in socionics (and all the cross-referencing) can't be simpler and more intuitive.
I wonder if things might be clearer if we look into the aspect (+ and - ) descriptions.
Here's INTj's hidden agenda:
(my summary) sensuality, comfort, aesthetics. health as comfort(how I feel)+Si
* the ability to feel the physical properties of the objects of the nearest environment.
* tendency toward the cosiness and the skill it to create in the limited space.
* the skill to surround itself by beautiful things.
* aesthetics and the accordion of object, ergonomics of object.
* tendency toward the satisfaction of its physical needs (sibaritstvo), the skill to avoid discomfort.
* memory to the personal physical sensations, the ability to reproduce them.
* orientation to the information about the close surrounding space, obtained through the well developed sensory organs, directed toward the pleasant sensations, weakening, enjoyment, pleasure.
* tendency toward the tactile contact: the sensitivity of touchs.
* health as the collection of the sensations of body.
and
my summary the capability(not necessarily the action of) defending ones group and their interests, the ability to recognize authority systems, not sure about 'health as a public institute'-Se
* the estimation of the external (form, physical force) and volitional qualities of man, in the context of the capability of the latter for leadership and control.
* the skill to defend the collective interests: piercing power, persistence, confidence in itself.
* the assertion of its interests due to the collective: collective interests prevail and overgrow into the personal.
* the skill to mobilize the large groups of people for achieving of the goal presented: exactingness, control, volitional pressure from top to bottom, the power methods of achievement of the objective.
* the assumption of power, leadership: offensive tactics - attack, aggression, attack, initiative.
* marginal importance to the possession of atributikoy authority.
* the skill to estimate the arrangement of forces of the opposing groups: subordination to the external superior forces (collaboration), the destruction of weak.
* the clear sensation of space around itself and objects, the sensation of the influence of space on the objects.
* capability for overcoming of elements.
* health as public institute.
and here is INTp's hidden agenda:
(my summary) to understand others and society's morals, to understand relations between people, taking polar views of morals and expressing them, belonging to a group-Fi
* the moral estimation of behavior and judgments of people as societies.
* the skill to understand, to estimate interrelations between the people in the groups, the associations, the society.
* the rules of behavior, accepted in the association, society.
* the estimation of the social relations: the open expression of its views on them.
* manipulation on the relations between the people in the groups, the skill to erect deep multipass intrigue in the association, using any psychological distances, to create and to impose its moral standards.
* tendency toward the rigid morals with the polar views - hatred- love, confidence- suspiciousness, mercy- ostracism, good- evil and so forth, etc.
* a feeling of debt, responsibility with respect to of group, organization, association, society, in which there is membership.
* generally - the relation between the people in the society, general human ethical rituals, the morals of society.
and this
(my summary) affecting the mood and feelings(not ethics) of the current group and individuals (that one sucked)+Fe
* understanding the emotional state of individual person, influence on his mood.
* the skill to force man emotionally to be opened, to appear its feelings: the skill to find individual approach to the man, to play "on the necessary strings" the showers through the manifestation of its positive emotions.
* the open expression of its emotions, the demonstration of its feelings, epatazh, tendency toward the theatricality in the chamber situation.
* sensitiveness, drops in the moods, fervency in the local situations; - the animation of different objects of custom (?).
* the creation of the emotional atmosphere in the small association (forcing of situation, enthusiasm, emotional lift): control of the emotional background of small group, directed toward the creation of happiness, merriment, enthusiasm, optimism, generally good mood.
* tendency toward recitations, artistic taste for "its" (entire spectrum of intonations, expressive pauses, significant views, rich mimicry).
* personal emotions, its mood, its passion, personal artistic taste and artistic taste of one concrete actor, its nervousness, power engineering its the nearest environment.
[/b]
Re: INTp & INTj: hidden agenda confusion
Thank you, metaiwan.
this is confusing. Maybe this INTj feels confused by her Ne.
also, this would answer why INTjs seem hedonistic sometimes.
Hah, sounds like me. I'm forever getting pissed when I don't understand things of that nature.(my summary) to understand others and society's morals, to understand relations between people, taking polar views of morals and expressing them, belonging to a group
This is so true. INTps are happy with who they are. I could notice this in one former classmate. He had this chillout attitude all the time. I am never content with myself or my work and also appear more inflexible.
I suppose this would go for all j/p
j types are more strict and oriented to self-improvement
p types have a more relaxed approach
yes, that's true also from my observations. INTps talk a lot in a relaxed way, and are not afraid of being misunderstoodObviously, you've never seen an INTp in his natural environment. They go completely crazy. In fact, when an INTp is having alot of fun, they tend to become very extroverted, even if there are strangers around.
What is this? The piss Cone off thread? Stop posting in it. Poor Cone.
I am generally never content with something I do... I still think that I suck at chess and can not play the guitar very well, even though respected people have complemented me on both of them. I have noticed that j types are more likely to purchase self-improvement books.This is so true. INTps are happy with who they are. I could notice this in one former classmate. He had this chillout attitude all the time. I am never content with myself or my work and also appear more inflexible.
I suppose this would go for all j/p
j types are more strict and oriented to self-improvement
p types have a more relaxed approach
One of the reasons I hate this thread is that the date it was written was March 2, 2005, the day after I joined this forum. In fact, I started writing it the night of the day I joined. It just seems WAY too soon to start writing such an integral part of the forum.
Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)
So what? Cone so anxious to share his knowledge..
not that's a bad thing or anything..
No, it might just mean that he's an[
So what? Cone so anxious to share his knowledge..
not that's a bad thing or anything..
instead of
Yeah, but I didn't have much knowledge before that.
Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)
INTp/INTj acid test
INTp
-Sees the future as something gradual, piece-after-piece.
-Tend to predict the near future.
INTj
-Sees the future as a "lump". Tends not to breakdown the future into pieces. Rather than see a future possibility as a gradual development of events, INTj's only see the possible end result.
-Tend to predict the distant future.
That works.
Re: INTp/INTj acid test
Yeah, when Josh was all fucked up he had this dream that was like, 10 years long and seemed to pass in real time. He saw a very detailed account of the end of the world and his involvement.
Re: INTp/INTj acid test
i can't speak for the intp. however i do see things as a lump, however, i also break it down. and i would see ALL the possible results, or atleast as many as i can generate. but in order to generate possibilities, it has to be broken down.
Re: INTp/INTj acid test
What do you mean by breaking down the possibilities?
What I was talking about was that intjs do not look into the future by seeing it as a gradual development of events. They just see an end result.
That was me.
When I said possibilities, I meant with regards to the prediction of the future.
It works for me. I always picture my 50th birthday and imagine what my life is like. I imagine how to get there but generally I have one huge goal.
EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
E3 (probably 3w4)
Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!
Old blog: http://firsttimeinusa.blogspot.com/
New blog: http://having-a-kid.blogspot.com/
Re: INTp/INTj acid test
we do, but then we reverse engineer it into blocks of information. because what good is seeing the cake, without knowing how to make it?What do you mean by breaking down the possibilities?
What I was talking about was that intjs do not look into the future by seeing it as a gradual development of events. They just see an end result.
Yes, I see what you're saying.
...however, that's not what I'm talking about.
hm, i do the second thing. in fact, usually see several possible end results, and sometimes have a strong gut feeling about a few or one of them. especially when it's a feeling of impending doom. (why is it i never get a strong gut feeling of impending pleasant outcomes?) i don't see the steps, i tend to work those out later - but that's a conscious effort, as opposed to the more spontaneous 'sight'.
Yes...this works for me. It's usually when I'm working on problems though...I think of a logical path, then visualize 'end results' for that path, if I don't like that picture, I make a new logical path, until I am satisfied with the end results picture.
Also, INTps tend to predict the near future, while INTjs tend to predict the distant future.
INTp v INTj
INTj
Eager (Fe) to do something intellectual (Ti).
Not eager to do something productive (Fe suppresses Te).
Observant of small details (Si) in the surroundings, rather than being observant of the whole surroundings (Ne suppresses Se). Has doubts (Ne) and seeks to remove doubts by finding evidences (Si). The void of the “unknown” is filled by the use of rational arguments (Ti).
Not attentive to relationships with people, and as a safeguard is over-actively over-friendly and under-conflicting when it comes to people (Ti suppresses Fi).
Attentive to health (Si), but under actively (passively and inadequately). Welcomes those who looks after their health.
Ideal sexual activity consists of tender touches and caresses, emotion and passion.
Mentally intense.
Reading style: not reading every word and sentence somewhat hurriedly.
Writing style: lifeless and robotic
Speaking tone: informal and somewhat high pitch
Listening: daydreams during a conversation
Posture: slouching
Intuition: detached from the present reality
INTp
Crystal clear observation of his whole surroundings (Se). Is doubtless dues to excellent observation and reliance on that observation (Se). The void of the “unknown” is filled with what he believes (Ni).
Does productive (Te) things calmly (Ni).
Not attentive to health, therefore over-actively over-thorough in hygiene (Ni suppresses Si)
Attentive to relationships (Fi), but under-actively (passively and inadequately). People may get the impression that the INTp doesn’t care about them (which is untrue). Welcomes those who help them maintain stable relationships.
Ideal sexual activity is very dynamic and characterized by acrobatic behaviour of the partners. Lead by the partner for having sex, without resistance. Willingly submit to the partners control.
Mentally tranquil.
Reading style: reading every word and sentence calmly.
Writing style: somewhat edgy and with flair, down to earth
Speaking tone: seriousness and somewhat low pitch
Listening: attentive
Posture: more or less upright
Intuition: attached to the present reality
The stuff in bold for INTj is what works for me.
Eager (Fe) to do something intellectual (Ti).
Not eager to do something productive (Fe suppresses Te).
Observant of small details (Si) in the surroundings, rather than being observant of the whole surroundings (Ne suppresses Se). Has doubts (Ne) and seeks to remove doubts by finding evidences (Si). The void of the “unknown” is filled by the use of rational arguments (Ti).
Not attentive to relationships with people, and as a safeguard is over-actively over-friendly and under-conflicting when it comes to people (Ti suppresses Fi).
Attentive to health (Si), but under actively (passively and inadequately). Welcomes those who looks after their health.
Ideal sexual activity consists of tender touches and caresses, emotion and passion.
Mentally intense.
Reading style: not reading every word and sentence somewhat hurriedly.
Writing style: lifeless and robotic
Speaking tone: informal and somewhat high pitch
Listening: daydreams during a conversation I'm very sorry to everyone in my life because when you talk I'm not really listening
Posture: slouching
Intuition: detached from the present reality
Of the things that arn't in bold, they work when they are a mix of the corresponding things in INTp
All Hail The Flying Spaghetti Monster
as you will be able to see in another thread, a purely functional comparison of the INTj and INTp is inadequate.
I would be INTj based on these definitions.
But there are a number of threads that cast doubt on this interpretation.
The Socionics definition ofcan be a bit confusing and counter-intuitive.
INTjs are often described in Socionics as people who tend to be very decided about things, and who have a sort of warrior mentality, fighting for their own conception of "justice."
I'm not sure the description of INTjs as slouched over, daydreaming, skipping-over-words-to-get-the-big-picture, etc., fits with the way a lot of Socionists see that type.
"INTjs are often described in Socionics as people who tend to be very decided about things, and who have a sort of warrior mentality, fighting for their own conception of "justice." "
No they are not. Is it not commonly conceived that INTjs---the entire alpha quadra---do not even have the balls to stand up for such justice and thus lay such a responsibility upon the betas? Isn't that pretty fundamental and thus indicative of the case being otherwise than what you stated?
"I'm not sure the description of INTjs as slouched over, daydreaming, skipping-over-words-to-get-the-big-picture, etc., fits with the way a lot of Socionists see that type."
You think so? Yeah, probably not, but Socionists are often wrong.
"To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"
"Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."
so are people on messageboards.
asd
The difference is, my statement had a point, yours was directed at boosting yourself up and feeling good about perceiving how you made another one of those "fools" look like an idiot.
That is the difference between discussion(which most people at this board like to practice) and your blatantly idiotic one liners that serve no purpose.
"To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"
"Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
