This is a paper I'm working on for my graduation project for school, so it is apt to be incomplete and apt to change. Any input from you guys will be greatly appreciated. I need more INTjs and INTps to examine, especially INTjs.
This post was originally meant as a response for Tanzhe's INTj or INTp question, but I decided to give it its own topic. So, I will write this as though I'm answering Tanzhe's question.
I've been through this dilemma with myself plenty of times before, and I came out with INTp, I guess making me the second INTp in here next to Labyrinth. I'll try to clear up some inconsistencies here, and maybe we can see if we can figure out your type. With myself being an INTp and my cousins being INTj and ISTj, I should be able to make some valid judgements on some of your points. Just hold on while I bring up the topic window...so much stuff to sort through...
Let me start out with an interesting observation I have noticed that definitely helped me out. A person of one type may imagine that he is characteristic of his beneficiary. In other words, an INTj may think he is an ISTp, and he may often come up with this type on MBTI tests (MBTI ISTJ.) For instance, my INTj cousin consistently came up with MBTI ISTJ on such and such internet tests. Also, I, for a while, thought that I might be an INFj, of course when I actually made friends with an INFj, he found it easy to get excited around me, whereas I found it difficult to excited around him. I find him a bit boring, as what he likes I can't stand (of course he sees this and constantly tries to convert me to his world, and this classically characterizes a Relation of Benefit.) Another example can be found with my mom; when I first tried to determine her type, she described the MBTI INTP type as being most accurate, even though she was eventually typed as an INFp (INFp > INTj). So, a person would have troubles sifting out his type between his Quasi-Identical and Beneficiary type. Thus, an INTj would be confused between INTj, INTp, and ISTp, as you seem to be, and an INTp would be confused between INTp, INTj, and INFj, as I have been. An ISTp would be confused between ISTp, ISTj, and ISFj, which haven't come up here. Also, did you ever look at the internet type statistics? ISTps are the least represented of the types on the internet, so the chances of an ISTp appearing on a web forum are pretty slim. Plus, ISTps often act like know-it-alls even when they don't know anything about what's being discussed, so the last thing an ISTp would be doing is doubting his type. From this information, I can pretty sure that you are an INTj, but you are probably still not convinced.
About Introverted Complexity No. 47: you asked a question of what the 'spiritual self' is. Maybe I can answer this by using what my INFj friend said about it. He often describes the whole spiritual/physical balance as a balance between order and chaos. For instance, if half of his day has been sitting in a well-ordered environment such as school (order), then he can't wait to get home and do something unordered, like listen to hard rock and roll, go to a party, or do something very physical (chaos). Thus, the 'spiritual self' is simply the ordered, systematic part of yourself, where the 'physical self' is simply the chaotic, energetic part of yourself. Here's another example from the MBTI INTP profile found at www.intp.org/intprofile.html:
Although I highly disagree with some of the theoretical material on that site, the behaviors are quite accurate. As you can see, this spiritual/physical balance also applies to things like music and art. On the opposite end, INTps tend to be imperceptive of this balance. They live life in a more relaxed mode, often residing in a spiritual state mostly, with occasional physical outbursts, although they are quick to return to that spiritual, ordered state. They feel no need to balance the two.INTPs are often drawn to dissonance. Indeed, they may even thoroughly strive for dissonant sound worlds. When in such moods, consonant harmonies, especially of the three-chord-melody variety, are dismissed as boring and uninspired. If an INTP is forced to listen to simple harmonic music for a while, he usually can't wait to feel the relief provided by a few minutes of pure dissonance.
For an INTp, he often feels a need to balance the intellectual/emotional self. In his intellectual pursuits, he often comes to a point where he begins to want to add the human factor into the equation. Here's a problem I often have: in my English classes, whenever I have to write something creative (as a journal, some types of essays, or poems), I often strive to add that deep, emotional factor to my creation that seemingly comes so easily to an INFj, or in this case, my ENFj friend. I start out with an emotional idea, but as I finish the paper, I find that it has that unmistakable essence of intellectualism. I become very envious of my ENFj friend whenever he can use so well the perfect mixture of metaphors and deeply-felt emotions in his writing, and then I stand up and read my overly-intellectual poem/essay/journal and get such praises as "very scientific" or "You're a pretty smart intellectual." And this intensely irks an INTp. He absolutely hates to be praised for how smart or intellectual he is; he would much rather be praised for his depth of emotionality. This directly corresponds with Introverted Feeling being the Estimative Function or Hidden Agenda of an INTp. On the other hand, INTjs are imperceptive of this intellectual/emotional balance. They live life in a systematic mode, where emotions tend to come out in occasional outbursts. They then consciously try to inject intellectualism into their emotions, thereby repressing them further. One thing my INTj cousin instantly said about himself when I tried to find out his personality type was, "I hide my emotions." It was something he was absolutely sure of, as though he saw emotions as plagues of the mind. An INTp, although he may recognize that he tends to hide his emotions, will never directly say, "I hide my emotions." Ironically, however, the INTj shows more emotion than the INTp. INTjs tend to cry more than INTps, although it could just be my cousin.
Here's a little INTp uncovered for pax's question on how you would react to a statement like, "Hey! I see you love her!":
INTp is admiring a girl from afar when his friend notices him.
Friend: Who are you staring at?
INTp: (surprised) Huh? What are you talking about? Noone!
Friend: You were looking at that girl! You like her, don't you?
INTp: What? No! I mean...shut up! Go away! I didn't say anything like that!
Friend: Come on, you know you like her.
INTp: No!!! I mean, just, just shut up and leave me alone! Ok, geez!
The INTp then stands up and hurriedly leaves, lest his friend probe any deeper into this subject.
Notice how the INTp becomes extremely defensive. He doesn't want to say, "Yes, I like her," yet he doesn't want to say, "No, I hate her!" Thus, the only thing he can do is leave the situation. He then will try to avoid his friend, but if he does happen to come into contact with him, he becomes extremely tense, hoping that his friend had forgotten about the situation.
Wanna know an easy way to completely incapacitate an INTp? Publicly announce his feelings toward someone, especially his feelings of love for another. He will instantly back down, running for the nearest corner to hide in. You can also get a previously unemotional INTp to cry by doing this. Of course, he will hate you intensely, but don't worry, it's not like he will seek you out for a fight. Admitting opinions of hate is just as bad as admitting opinions of love.
And here's something very strange that I've just noticed about myself. I like talking about my weaknesses. The more weaknesses I have, the better I feel about myself. Extremely strange. I think it may have something to do with INTps being in the Gamma Quadrable, the Death-Rebirth Struggle, BPM III. This idea sounds very masochistic in a way, and isn't sadomasochism an idea in BPM III? Maybe you guys can figure this out. Labyrinth, have you ever felt this way?
And also, I seem to like it when others reveal their weaknesses. It's kind of like a group sympathy.
Anyway, the -- axis as the PoLR -- Estimative Function axis for INTps is absolute hell. As stated above, INTps hate it when their is revealed in any way, yet they enjoy praise for being "deep". But on the other side of the axis, takes, perhaps, an even worse beating. is all about how others feel about you. This function surrounds such things as criticisms and opinions. This leads INTps to be extremely shy, especially during their school days. They are very sensitive to how others feel about their ideas, motives, behaviors, likes and dislikes, etc. They hate criticisms about anything they do, thus they try never to criticize others (of course, that attitude can drastically change once the INTp gets to really, really know you.) They never seem to hold grudges for very long, as they hate hating people, which directly corresponds with the hidden agenda, "to love." Conversely, my INTj and ISTj cousins never seem to drop anything. If you do one thing they don't like, they'll sit there and moan about it for hours. Also, INTps hate when others criticize another person.
Another problem for INTps is that they never know exactly what others think of them. They are very sensitive about this. For instance, say an INTp is walking down a hall, and he passes a girl he really likes. If, say, the girl doesn't look over to him when he looks at her, he instantly assumes that she hates him and wants nothing to do with him. Irrational, I know. He continues to dwell on this insignificant detail, fighting off thoughts of worthlessness, hopelessness, and whatnot. Of course, this can easily be alleviated. Just by simply showing an INTp a simple gesture that you think he's an ok guy, you can instantly lighten his mood, even if he hated you before. An INTp's moods are extremely variable.
The funny thing is, INTps may have such a big problem with that they think at first that their hidden agenda is "to be loved," as in the ENTp. The big marked difference between ENTps and INTps, however, is that INTps tend to keep a huge psychological distance between people at first, so much that it may take years to get an INTp to come out of his shell, whereas the ENTp never knows how to keep the right psychological distance between himself and another, loving you one day and ignoring you the next.
I'm not really sure of how the -- axis works in an INTj; maybe some of you INTjs can elaborate on this? And also, I'm sorry if I dwelled too much on the INTp's behaviors, but you know, I know myself way, way better than I know others. But that's where you guys come in.
Anyway, let me try and explain some of Tanzhe noticed behaviors.
Any type can have low self-esteem (look at me!) It's just that INTjs lack self-confidence in their abilities, where INTps know exactly if they can or can't do something.Low self-esteem.
I pride myself and am often amazed by my predictive abilities and foresight. In fact, that's how I approach most problems. I try to predict what will happen as the situation unfolds, and from there I can make decisions. It really helps in business applications.Lack of ‘predictive ability and foresight.’
I'm an atheist, but that's mostly because of influences from my INFp mother (although she still believes in 'a' god, just not the Christian's god. It's very important for INFps to believe in something, way more than INTps, for if they don't, they tend to fall into Nihilistic and Existentialistic ideas and often feel very lost and lonely. This is a big thing for types from the Beta Quadrable, the Cosmic Engulfment with No Exit, BPM II.) And on spirituality: I explained this somewhere above.Lack of religiousness - although this may be subject to change and I know that religion does not equal spirituality - please clarify on that.
You shouldn't. Here's an easy way to spot someone with that hidden agenda. They often have an obsession with petting and loving up pets. They will pet and cuddle an animal so much, that it causes the pet to get annoyed and run away. But that doesn't stop them. They run after it, trying to catch it and love it up again, often in a rough manner. I've often been yelled at by my ISFj dad for bothering the cat too much. They often feel hurt if the pet doesn't want to cuddle with them.I don’t identify with the hidden agenda ‘to love.’
INTps tend to be like that, until they get a taste of power. Then nothing is negotiable with them. No ideals compromised, no plans adjusted, nothing. They often try to seize complete power over a problem, so that they can push it to completion exactly how they want it. Also, INTps usually have an obsession with being the best at something. They often get extremely annoyed when they come in second in something they know they're good at. And if something doesn't seem to want to work for an INTp, they react in the natural male way: force it in until it does. And INTps tend to be quite temperamental and aggressive.Not assertive at all. I could see Se as a place of least resistance.
For INTjs, they are often sensitive of their abilities and physical strength. They hate to be criticized in this area. Thus, it tends to be that INTjs hate gym class. Those shy, quiet types that seem to do nothing and can't throw a dodgeball are probably either INTjs or INFjs.
Doesn't any logical type feel that way?I do not understand what others think of me.
INTjs have more self-control than INTps. They get mad alot less than INTps. It just so happens that INTps tend to lack self-control and self-discipline. INTps are often happy with who they are, thus they have little or no interest in self-improvement.I am not quite certain about the self-control of an INTj and INTp.
Obviously, you've never seen an INTp in his natural environment. They go completely crazy. In fact, when an INTp is having alot of fun, they tend to become very extroverted, even if there are strangers around.As for self-control, I asked the person that I knew and he said that I had an appearance of self-control - not getting excited or jumping for joy. I am not sure whether that is an INTp trait.
Some marked differences in INTjs and INTps:
- INTps love to explain things to people, even to people that don't really care about what the INTp is talking about. INTjs on the other hand have a hard time explaining things, thus they are usually private about their interests.
- INTjs usually depend on theoretical facts when they discuss things. INTps depend on real-life examples.
Keep adding to this list, folks!
That's all I'm going to type for now. I still have 'miles to go', so don't think I've finished my dissertation. Any opinions or criticisms will be greatly appreciated (or so I say.)
Oh, and Tanzhe, I would definitely venture to say that you are a clear-cut INTj. An easy way to spot an INTj is that he keeps doubting his type through pages and pages of questions and theories. Yet, other INTjs are the only ones present who try to answer the question, so, the INTj never really knows what he is.
Your Quasi-Identical INTp friend,