IEIs/INFps and push-pull relationships

[Creepy-female]

-poof-

[PotatoSpirit]

You guys keep bashing the beta p duality, and that bothers my Ti system. Make it work and shut up :-P

[Expat]

Maybe the bashing is part of how and why it works?

[UDP]

It sounds like something I would not go for at all, and would prefer to keep as far away from me in how I act and function in relationships as possible - so it very well may point to you being my opposite. That might sound weird or like I am pointing out a negative thing and saying "hah I'd never do that!", but there is more to it than that.

My advice would be rational, and although I spent lots of time talking to ISFps about it, it just seems to be more a mood stabilizer and focuser - it takes a long time for them to do anything (from my point of view).


If I was to suggest anything, I would say you have to get to a point where it is significantly disadvantageous for you to be without the person, and then realize how much you need them/want them, and try to remember it. That seems to have played a part in how the ISFp did things in the past. There is something irrational there I do not understand. But try, with your abilities of discernment and intellect, to figure out if the person really is worth it in the long run before you push yourself emotionally to that point.

I have absolutely no idea if that will work or solve anything though - I have no experience with the beta irrational dual couple.

Good luck.




PS: Maybe it would be "the opposite" of whatever I would do?
In that case, some sort of extremely consistent, day by day, extremely straight line, extremely direct, not too emotional - - the opposite of that. I suppose there is something to realizing what is natural for you, even it seems strange. I am still learning what is natural for me, honestly. But when you find it and accept it as part of who you are, "This is me", or "this is my way; this is just how I go about relationships" - when you get to see for yourself what that really is, it makes the process easier, IMO.

[Blaze]

I was reading a blurb about the sexual subtype of 4s at enneagram central..........and came across this.

I love you while you are absent, but up close I notice you have a lot of faults.
But as soon as you go, I begin to idealize you and get in touch with the really deep feelings I have for you. Please come back and torture me again.

It's kind of scary, how accurate this is for me. Gaaah. I talked to Herzy about this, and she said that if you're trying to get together with an ESTp, it's better to try and be more consistent, to be friendly though you're going through the disallusionment phase.

But I'm soo bad at being consistent. I need some help. I work myself up into a frenzy of illusions. I dream and fantasize and think of all sorts of possibilities about the person. Then I fall hard when I start noticing the flaws. I did this exact thing tonight when I was with my ESTp. In one evening, I go from idolization to disallusionment, and now the idolization is starting again, once the guy is actually absent. What the heck? How pathetic is that? IEIs, any words of wisdom?

i have noticed this phenomenon with infp man, just happened yesterday as a matter of fact. i confronted him on it the other day, "wtf, you love me, you want to be with me the rest of your life, now you're not so sure, you might move to florida. wait a minute, we're moving forward, no wait we're slowing down." make up your effing mind!

i guess it's important to look at the overall trend rather than the details along the way. because the trend is moving forward and getting closer. LOL that's the key to it, the trend. when the infp is in the moment with you there's all kinds of little things that throw off their trend analysis, then they go home and think, line everything up into their view of how things are playing out over time, and they start to feel warm and fuzzy again.

so what do i do? point out inconsistencies, boldly confront, laugh about it, tell him i love him and c'mon already. and yes, herzy is right, i'd like him to be more consistent. don't think it's gonna happen though. the Ni vortex is waaaay too powerful.....

[aka-kitsune]

Maybe the bashing is part of how and why it works?

And maybe it doesn't always work for everyone. I haven't seen any good reason to pursue a dual relationship to the exclusivity of any other types. You're attracted to whomever you find attractive.

I find the notion of duals like "arranged marriages" and predetermined choice simply irritates me.
So, bleh.

[Blaze]

what are your expectations? have you discussed them with him?

[ScarlettLux]

This sounds a bit odd. Is this SLE your boyfriend or just a potential boyfriend? Heh. I have never known SLEs to by "depressed and shy" in any way really!

[zenbrat]

I dunno... Maybe learn to appreciate those so-called "flaws"? Or at least put them into better perspective of the person as a whole? I think it's kind of unfair to expect your partner to fit an impossible ideal, when we've all got flaws ourselves. There's a certain charm in unkempt hair, awkward table manners, and lasciviousness. That said, if the perceived flaws seem to be dominating your perception of this individual, that's when you might start thinking about moving on. Being a messy eater is one thing. Being abusive or a drain of your energy and resources is another. I think a lot of the time when I start feeling fickle or inconstant, it's my intuition telling me something's wrong and I need to get out of the relationship. But you'll have to figure out yourself whether you're unfairly expecting the impossible out of the person, or whether you realistically just aren't happy with the relationship.

Yep. Exactly.

[FDG]

Nobody in the right mind will be okay with a relationship where the other pushes-pulls, simply because it can't go on forever.

[redbaron]

This sounds a bit odd. Is this SLE your boyfriend or just a potential boyfriend? Heh. I have never known SLEs to by "depressed and shy" in any way really!

Well he's not quiet around his friends! He's really loud and hyper and funny. But around me, he's just really shy.........

that's cause he likes you.

[redbaron]

Nobody in the right mind will be okay with a relationship where the other pushes-pulls, simply because it can't go on forever.

I think some irrational types are okay with some level of push-pulling in a relationship even when fully committed. It's like a kind of cyclical thing where you're close for awhile and then you take some time to yourself. I can see a relationship where that would be acceptable to me. (my husband isn't like that at all, he's pretty even-keeled) But then again, maybe I'm not in my right mind!

[sigma]

I dream and fantasize and think of all sorts of possibilities about the person. Then I fall hard when I start noticing the flaws.

You're looking at the wrong part of the whole deal...
Don't look at his faults and think "WTF?"... look at his faults and think "How can I improve this? How can I fix this? How would I help him without him noticing?"
Use the power of your imagination to cook up interesting interactions that get you closer to a worthy goal. Like making him better.

This is not particularly easy but it is so worth it when you realize that you've done your part.

[Blaze]

You're looking at the wrong part of the whole deal...
Don't look at his faults and think "WTF?"... look at his faults and think "How can I improve this? How can I fix this? How would I help him without him noticing?"
Use the power of your imagination to cook up interesting interactions that get you closer to a worthy goal. Like making him better.

This is not particularly easy but it is so worth it when you realize that you've done your part.

i'm surprised to hear you say this because from what i know and understand, men absolutely do not want you to try to change them. i'm sure women would not either, although we tend to be a tad more flexible about behavior.

i think it's more about changing how you look at things and how much importance you place on different aspects of people's personalities. like maybe what you think is important isn't really all that important in the larger scheme of things or in the larger view of who that person is. like, is the fact that this person keeps leaving their shoes lying all around the house something i can overlook or something that's a big hill for me to die on in this relationship? stupid example, but the point is there.

tolerance is important, but so is not settling for somebody that isn't really fitting enough of the bill for you.

[sigma]

i'm surprised to hear you say this because from what i know and understand, men absolutely do not want you to try to change them.

At the level of understanding I am now I would love a woman's help in changing myself.
But... than again... most of the people I know are bears... and bears don't like to have their hibernation disturbed.

[redbaron]

i'm surprised to hear you say this because from what i know and understand, men absolutely do not want you to try to change them. i'm sure women would not either, although we tend to be a tad more flexible about behavior.

i think it's more about changing how you look at things and how much importance you place on different aspects of people's personalities. like maybe what you think is important isn't really all that important in the larger scheme of things or in the larger view of who that person is. like, is the fact that this person keeps leaving their shoes lying all around the house something i can overlook or something that's a big hill for me to die on in this relationship? stupid example, but the point is there.

tolerance is important, but so is not settling for somebody that isn't really fitting enough of the bill for you.

(hm, not sure how to bold things with this new format) Anyway, I agree with Sunshine on the "men don't want to be changed" thing. I think that if you go into a relationship thinking about how you're going to change him (or her) you're headed for trouble. Just my two cents.

[sigma]

think that if you go into a relationship thinking about how you're going to change him (or her) you're headed for trouble. Just my two cents.

I agree to a degree... BUT it depends on the kind of change you're trying...
If you think creatively how you can change a person from what he/she is into a better version of themselves and act... that change has a chance...

If, on the other hand, you try to transform the other person into something he/she is not... than yes, you are heading for trouble...

[sigma]

Hm... honestly, I would hate this. I don't want to be in a relationship with someone who has an agenda and wants to try and turn me into their definition of "better." I honestly just want someone who accepts me, warts and all, and I'm willing to do the same if on a deeper level, everything just "clicks."

Ok... imagine that you are a big fat guy and "she" wants to see you in better shape... so she tries to find new, creative ways in which you get a better work-out... more exercise.

Now, I know that some people would prefer the comfort of their couch, looking at a football game with a big bowl of chips in their lap... BUT I would love a chick that would whip me into shape.

[Wittmont]

[sigma]

But I'm NOT a fat guy who needs to be whipped into shape. And even if I was, that is what a personal trainer is for - not a girlfriend. I'm perfectly capable of getting myself to the gym and capable of pursuing my own goals. When I'm in a relationship, I want someone who experiences me in the present, as opposed to someone who is concentrated on some projected "ideal" me. In other words, "Take me as I am, and come as you are. We'll have fun together."

Now that's not to say, by being with someone who is really confident in themselves and goes at life like a sledgehammer might not have a positive indirect influence on me... but if they're consciously concentrated on "improving" me... that's a major turn-off.

Not primary concern... but willingness... I mean... I don't need a control freak with an agenda... only someone to whom I can say... "Feel free to pour ice-cold on me if I don't jump out of bed as I said I would" and be sure that she will do it... for my sake.

[FDG]

Ok... imagine that you are a big fat guy and "she" wants to see you in better shape... so she tries to find new, creative ways in which you get a better work-out... more exercise.

No way. I get mad when I'm expected to change my personality. I'm me with my defects and if I want to change them, I can do it - if she needs something "better", she can go find it somewhere else.

[sigma]

No way. I get mad when I'm expected to change my personality. I'm me with my defects and if I want to change them, I can do it - if she needs something "better", she can go find it somewhere else.

I'm not talking about personality change... but about personal development... a better you.

You are totally justified to want someone to accept you as you are... BUT I find it hard to be with a status quo preserver and this is not due to my personality but rather due to my view on life...

[FDG]

I'm not talking about personality change... but about personal development... a better you.

You are totally justified to want someone to accept you as you are... BUT I find it hard to be with a status quo preserver and this is not due to my personality but rather due to my view on life...

I'm into personal development myself, I never needed a push from the outside. If somebody pushes me from the outside, that means she's pushing in a different direction, that's why I'd hate it.

If, say, I were to be depressed and she were trying to lift me out it that would be welcomed. However I have the drive to better myself without anybody placing an expectations to reach a particular goal (that she has set).