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Thread: SLI-LIE Supervision Relations (ISTp and ENTj)

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I don't know the point of this discussion. If we discuss about a LIE which is so Ni that the strenght of his Te is indistinguishable from the strenght of his Fe, then it's not very surprising that he may not be very careful with technical specifications and duration of tasks. If we talk about a LIE with sufficiently strong Te, then it's probably a mistyping.
    Well, if a "LIE" seems to focus more on Fe than on Te, then the chances are that he's not a LIE. That's the point many people here seem to be missing; and such people should reconsider the criteria they are using to type someone as "LIE". A "LIE" who has Fe>Te is, by definition, not a LIE.

    As for the "extreme Ni LIE" thingy, as long as they remain LIEs, they still - by definition - focus more on Te and Fe. Now, if to see that is difficult, then the problem lies with the competence of those who have problems seeing whether he prefers Te or Fe.
    Last edited by Expat; 05-27-2009 at 05:21 PM. Reason: Typos
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
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    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    Which is the basic skill of sales and marketing - which is something Ryu referred to with regard to "his" LIE.
    Of course I can't speak for Ryu but maybe what he's referring to is a different style of marketing?
    As a general comment on this thread, the basic argument of quite a few people here (not ifmd95, I am just going on with the reasoning) seems to be the ancient "I know some LIEs who are like this-and-that etc". Personally I am very skeptical of such arguments (obviously not only with regard to LIEs), especially when used to dismiss other arguments made with base from model A implications. Just because some people (Grek0, Cyclops, Ryu) have typed some other people as LIEs, it does not follow that the latter are necessarily LIEs.

    In other words, I am puzzled at how they are so confident of their typings, even when it goes against the logic of model A. It should at least give them something to think.
    I don't follow you. As far as I can recall I haven't posted a disagreement or dismissed any of the posters views on this thread, nor am I aware of having said anything which contradicts model A (maybe others have), if I have, please point it out, it's possible i'm wrong or I haven't explained myself properly.

    In regards to using actual examples of people i've typed as LIE (for instance), I can understand your skepticism if it is along the lines of.. you (Expat or others) can't personally verify it etc. For myself i'm quite happy to use and for others to use real life examples, without it socionics becomes less relevant and applicable, at least for me, it's just discussing stuff on a forum really. I would say observing the types irl and discussing this is useful to me.

    Of course if someone was to talk about a type which was in clear violation of how that type should behave, then I would probably query it, with a view to learning about the type or correcting the error (however it transpired). Perhaps that is what your inferring, that they are removed from how LIE's actually are? But in regards to skepticism, there's always the risk of error, and it can be difficult to check things, but what else can we do while being in such a wide-spread community as this little forum?

    Edit: something else which may be relevant, how others of a different type view a certain type may be different to how an identical would view them. I suppose it's interesting to see how other types view each other, whether it's right or wrong (usually there is a different slant of 'perception', but with discussion one would still expect it to be able to be tied in with model A, if said typings are correct). As an ILE I know once said, something along the lines of: it's not quite 16 types when there are different cameras/lenses looking at the same thing.
    Last edited by Cyclops; 05-27-2009 at 01:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    And if This is the guy's weakness. . . don't you see how that doesn't fit LIE? No concern for Fi-related things? No awareness of Te-related things? How the heck is that an LIE?
    Perhaps how I worded things is confusing you. Obviously I would not say an LIE has "no awareness of Te related" things.

    What I said was...
    "The problem is that he has no concern or even awareness of how his actions actually affect other people, and he's not aware of the time it takes to do the real, actual work of things"

    That doesn't mean "He doesn't value Te". A more specific way of saying things, perhaps, is that he is clueless about the details and practical aspects of what he talks about. (To me). He's good at planning and arranging, but he is terrible at managing things that are critical to success of programs. He hopes to just assign plans for other people to follow, and hopes that they will do well in them. (ETA Also, from my perspective, "real, actual work" involves Te+Si things, and the person didn't have much consideration for Si). I saw him as basically unwilling to do any legwork that he didn't see as immediately beneficial for him or his image; so in fact, he was extremely focused on Te, but imo, he was unhealthy in that he was so ego-focused that he wasn't able to see how his efforts to make himself look good got in the way of things. Not look good in a "Fe-sense", but in a "Te-sense" of opportunities, resume building, connections, etc).

    That is what I was talking about for "actual work". He's overly optimistic about the success of such things.

    The person struck me much more focused (too much so) on the long term impact of things - plans, ideas, scheming and positioning, and was in fact obsessed with such. You could say he was 'obsessed' with Te and Ni. Fe was his tool that he developed to help him in this way, although he's not very good with it despite the polish he tries to put on it. He's concerned about Fi as he gets very nervous about Fi issues as he deals with them extremely awkwardly.

    If I was to say anything needed to happen, I'd say the person I was talking about needed his dual to straighten him out some -- help him tone down his obvious over-focus on Fe, and give him some Fi/IJ stability in terms of people, and finally give him help with Se practicality.


    PS: you should be able to tell that I don't think much of the person. This doesn't affect my typing of the person, however - and it's even more a point of why I am making a big deal about how he was LIE, and not just an EIE in 'the opposing quadra'. It's more about a 'bad person' who is an LIE (LIE E3), than someone being an LIE that I don't like. What I'm describing is an unhealthy LIE E3, that's all. I've been around other LIEs who are different this, in terms of both enneagram and health, and they are different. But I do not think the person is "Fe>Te".
    Last edited by UDP; 05-29-2009 at 04:12 AM.
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

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    Knowing two LIE-Ni who are both E3 (3w4 so/sp and 3w2 sp/so), I can't say either of them sound the way Ryu is describing his LIE to be. Both are quite open to being corrected on their factual knowledge. It's not because they're more eminently reasonable than most people (by virtue of being LIE or something) or that their always correct (definitely not the case, as I've corrected them more than once) -- but this is an area of confidence for them. It doesn't hurt their ego to be corrected, they consider my points on merits and then bolster their own position, unless I convince them otherwise, which they've always been perfectly happy to acknowledge if that is the case.

    To an LII (or other Ne-valuing person), an LIE might seem more 'obstinate' about their 'credibility'? Sometimes its a matter of a different threshold before which someone will entertain a position as legitimate or actively revise their own and Se-valuers tend to have a higher threshold, irrespective of Fe/Ti/Te/Fi.

    On the other hand, if you were to critique the LIE's manner of presentation - ouch. They both puff themselves up a great deal about 'showmanship' and 'selling the product', but it's clearly where they are the least confident. Maybe this is what Ryu means? It's where they focus a lot of their conscious efforts, and they sort of try to 'deconstruct' things like charm, or charisma, and package it into a 3-step process. I find them very alien when they do that; they're very mechanical about all that jazz. It's possible that where a non-E3 LIE might either care less about their presentation and affect on others, or be more openly insecure, an E3 LIE is simply more overtly focused on the 'superficial' aspects of Fe: basically making an impression. And the do it via Te rather than actual Fe, which is why I feel like they're sometimes wielding blunt instruments in a glassware shop. They don't focus on what is going on 'underneath', they focus entirely on the words -- and so they miss their cues and seem bizarrely off-tune and really really fake, like a deaf man trying to sing.
    Last edited by unefille; 05-29-2009 at 06:16 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    Don't talk down to me.
    I'm not talking down to you.
    You continue to say (and show how) the man is Ni and Fe-focused, but have yet to show how he has any ability whatsoever in Te.
    Because I took it for granted. You doubt that he's LIE, but I'm coming from the standpoint that this person is already LIE. Think about it.

    If you want to interpret everything I said as him being Fe focused - but that's your interpretation of things. Diana's thoughts. My thoughts are that he's using Fe as a tool, and he's absolutely, clearly, undoubtedly Te dominant, because all his Fe actions are subordinate to his Te goals. Fe never, ever, ever is used without the consent of Te. This is why he is LIE. If I've not expressed that clearly, or I've made it sound like he is really Fe dominant, then my words were wrong.


    What "Fi issues" is he concerned with? You already earlier said that he was unconcerned with Fi matters.

    I think you've mistyped him, and this is probably why:

    imo, in striving to be "objective" you're being less so.
    Right... Here's what I think: you only saw me commenting about Fe and Ni and you disregarded my remark about him being LIE. So you assumed you knew better than I did, and because I didn't present you with a full list of how this person is clearly Te leading and clearly LIE, it furthered your thinking that I don't know anything about what I'm talking about and the person is EIE.

    I obviously have dislike for the person, so your comment about being "objective" is out of place. I don't like the person but that doesn't affect my analysis of the situation, particularly in terms of socionics.

    As for his Fi issues, he gets very insecure and acts reallllly weird when he thinks people are not liking him or think poorly of his character. He tries to be light and positive when this happens, but his attempts at Fe really start to tank. His Fe is so polished because he's not very secure about it, but it's very shotty - tricks and gimmicks. It's nothing like a real Fe dominant. He's looking for an ESI to calm him down and get him to stop all of that stuff. Also, particularly in terms of Fi, he gets very nervous when you make any question about him being on bad terms with someone, particualrly someone he thinks of as valuable. He tries to send personalized notes to 'help maintain' relationships with people, especially if he's worried about them falling apart. It's a lot of typical "EJ effort" expended, but he realizes that he has no control over how other people feel about him or think about him, he doesn't see himself as in charge of ethics or relationships in any way (in terms of his subconscious). All he can do is put forth effort. He's absolutely not F in ego.
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

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    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    Knowing two LIE-Ni who are both E3 (3w4 so/sp and 3w2 sp/so), I can't say either of them sound the way Ryu is describing his LIE to be. Both are quite open to being corrected on their factual knowledge.
    Where did I say the person I'm talking about is not open to being corrected on factual knowledge?

    Wha?

    n the other hand, if you were to critique their manner of presentation - ouch. They both puff themselves up a great deal about 'showmanship' and 'selling the product', but it's clearly where they are the least confident. Maybe this is what Ryu means?
    How people are getting things other than that, I don't know.

    It's where they focus a lot of their conscious efforts, and they sort of try to 'deconstruct' things like charm, or charisma, and package it into a 3-step process. I find them very alien when they do that; they're very mechanical about all that jazz.
    Right....... that's just what I said...........................


    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu
    Some LIEs do try to use Fe as a tool, and that's what happened in the above example I gave. His Fe was terrible, imo, but because he polished some things enough, it worked on other people, at times. He tries very hard at 'appearing successful', and how he presents himself to other people - some have said he's charismatic.
    ...
    He's said "life is sales", and he will use whatever tactic to try to sell himself or whatever he's doing - such as exploiting morality or trying to woo the opposite sex. Although he'd never ever label it as such - save for when he's trying to get you to see his way and as a 'joke'.
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Who's the hot girl in your avatar UDP?
    I've been wondering that too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    Where did I say the person I'm talking about is not open to being corrected on factual knowledge?

    Wha?

    How people are getting things other than that, I don't know.

    Right....... that's just what I said...........................
    You quoted Grek0 in agreement and that was what he was essentially saying. That was the post that Diana said sounded more like an EIE and you disagreed with her. That's how I think your original post was open to being read anyway.
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    I don't know all types, but those types I know, I know them very well

    And I certainly know an ENTj when I interact with one, let alone been a friend of one for years.

    Ryu, your description of their focus on self-marketing and how it is perceived by people who get to observe them for sufficient time, was spot on.

    Now what yo described may apply to other types as well. It may even apply MORE to some types, than it does to ENTjs. And ENFjs might be one of those types. I don't know ENFjs enough to comment on that. But I can tell you it most certainly applies to ENTjs
    INTJ [mbti]
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    I think the self-marketing is somehow more obvious in ENTj's than some other types.

    I suppose ENTj's care more about career advancement than the company or the employees or such, something to do with Te and their Se HA. In contrast to ENFj's, the Se HA is still there, but it's effect is tempered a little with them being ethical types, caring about others and the group and such and such.

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    Default ENTjs, what annoys you about ISTps!

    Any rants/info would be appreciated.

    Is it that we are not aggressive enough? Not kind/caring enough?
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    Default LIE-SLI interaction

    Do you know any couples in this supervision relation? Possibly male SLI, female LIE? Would it explain LIE being sort of "scared" of being themselves and walking on egg-shells around the other person? Have you seen LIE act this way in front of certain types or is it ntr at all? I find it interesting cause I think it's the first time I ever saw LIE fearing judgement, it's weird to observe. I'm not sure of the male's type, introverted sensor is all I have, although doesn't seem to be ESI as brilliantly hits it off with ILE. Doesn't seem SEI either - more rigid. I'm left with LSI and SLI and somehow SLI seems more probable...
    Have you observed similar interactions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by aisa View Post
    Do you know any couples in this supervision relation? Possibly male SLI, female LIE? Would it explain LIE being sort of "scared" of being themselves and walking on egg-shells around the other person? Have you seen LIE act this way in front of certain types or is it ntr at all? I find it interesting cause I think it's the first time I ever saw LIE fearing judgement, it's weird to observe. I'm not sure of the male's type, introverted sensor is all I have, although doesn't seem to be ESI as brilliantly hits it off with ILE. Doesn't seem SEI either - more rigid. I'm left with LSI and SLI and somehow SLI seems more probable...
    Have you observed similar interactions?
    One of my very good friends is SLI and one of my very good friends is LIE (I used to work with him)

    SLI is quiet and witty; LIE is boisterous and sometimes outrageous, and he never stops talking (he's also extremely smart)

    One time I invited LIE over to hang out with me, SLI, and some other people

    The next day at work LIE was complaining about how he felt like SLI was "silently judging him" the entire time

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenneth Chesney View Post
    One of my very good friends is SLI and one of my very good friends is LIE (I used to work with him)

    SLI is quiet and witty; LIE is boisterous and sometimes outrageous, and he never stops talking (he's also extremely smart)

    One time I invited LIE over to hang out with me, SLI, and some other people

    The next day at work LIE was complaining about how he felt like SLI was "silently judging him" the entire time
    yeah, sounds very similar to my observations. It's quite weird to see LIE subdued tbh as it's such an energetic person usually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aisa View Post
    yeah, sounds very similar to my observations. It's quite weird to see LIE subdued tbh as it's such an energetic person usually.
    I agree; this guy went from mile-a-minute talking to somber, uneasy silence

    supervision has that "deadening" or "dampening" effect

    I've decided to make a habit of "staring down" any LII I come across; the goal is to make them feel awkward and uneasy

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    Man, I could write a book.

    My father is SLI, I married (and divorced) an SLI, and our son is SLI.

    But to summarize, Supervision is not the best relationship. It can vary from genuinely helpful and constructive to intolerable, depending, I think, on the respective subtypes of the people involved. In my own case, my ex-wife and my subtypes (Te) were favorably matched, but it still wasn't enough in the long run.

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    My experience with LIE's has been positive. My senior at work is an LIE. I consider him quite brilliant and envy his energy, quick thinking, and ingenuity. He'll sleep like 3 hours and go the whole day drinking an energy drink/cup of coffee seemingly every hour when there's major stuff going on but I can't criticize him for it as I do the same thing, just with far more agony, despair, and regret while he doesn't seem to mind. Never seems to have any issues with me either, considers me hardworking and reliable as he's communicated to me and is always trying to convince me of his next big marketing scheme he has going on which I patiently listen to. Really can't see how an SLI would make an LIE uncomfortable personally, at least more so than how we would make any other type uncomfortable.

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    In the wheelhouse of one, the other is often incompetent so the potential for disagreements and or misunderstandings is high. If roles are well defined and don't overlap as in some work situations, these two types can get along quite well. When the performance of one impacts the perceived reputation and or success of the other, these relationships can develop significant divisions; they rarely have similar perceptions, priorities, approaches, or measures of success so there will be tugs of war. This doesn't bode well for such things as the raising of a family - one may even look for reasons to be away from home.

    EDIT: The main source of rifts is the LIE's seeming grandiose expectations placed on others versus the practical, get-it-done approach of the SLI. Arguments seems to revolve around different perceptions of expediency and what's-good-enough.

    a.k.a. I/O
    Last edited by Rebelondeck; 12-23-2020 at 02:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aisa View Post
    Do you know any couples in this supervision relation? Possibly male SLI, female LIE? Would it explain LIE being sort of "scared" of being themselves and walking on egg-shells around the other person? Have you seen LIE act this way in front of certain types or is it ntr at all? I find it interesting cause I think it's the first time I ever saw LIE fearing judgement, it's weird to observe. I'm not sure of the male's type, introverted sensor is all I have, although doesn't seem to be ESI as brilliantly hits it off with ILE. Doesn't seem SEI either - more rigid. I'm left with LSI and SLI and somehow SLI seems more probable...
    Have you observed similar interactions?
    I don't think I'm scared of being myself around SLI's.
    but I do realise I kinda want to prove something to them. Strange.
    But I notice this thing happens to my supervisee IEI's as well. My IEI friend/colleague kinda admires me and always wants to do her best and prove something to me. I'm close to SLI's and IEI's, supervision relationships are not the best, but depend on the persons, they're not that bad.

    I agree with this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    I have known one SLI guy my entire life (our mothers were, and remained, best friends). He's 6 months older than I.
    I think he thinks I can't really take care of myself physically and that I should see that as a major concern, but he doesn't really talk about it -- this is perceived more on occasion remarks to "encourage" me or "warn" me in those areas, as in "don't forget to wear a tie for that job interview" (as if I had never done it before) or "well done!" when we are playing soccer together with his kid and a bunch of other kids, and I do something exceptionally skillful.
    The one that I bolded "I think he thinks I can't really take care of myself physically and that I should see that as a major concern" does ring a bell. Currently seeing an SLI and I don't get it he's constantly worried about me being too tired, too busy, etc. I didn't experience this with an SLE, LSI, even ESI, they actually adore me "wow she can do that" something like that.

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    And guess what,
    just this afternoon I told my IEI colleague to take day off next week and I can cover for her because I think she's too tired.

    Just things that "supervisors" do I guess.

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    I was standing at the edge of my property, talking to my next door neighbor. He's a broker and we're both LIEs, although he's a bit more "normal LIE" than I am. I'm LIE-1Te and he's LIE-0, I'd say. He's married to a wonderful EII and he's having a bit of trouble meshing with her, but that's a topic for another thread.

    Anyway, he looked over my shoulder and said "Here comes your ex-wife."

    I turned around and saw her coming towards us. She was quite a distance away. She's SLI, by the way.

    "Why does she still come around?", he asked, as if staying in contact with someone you were married to once was something he'd never ever do.

    "Because she loves me and she wants something", I said. And laughed.

    "She and I are almost perfect matches. Equal intelligence, equal attractiveness, equal height, equal earning power, equal world-views, everything. We only broke up because she's my Supervisor and got tired of being married to an idiot."

    "She's right over there. I think she can hear you." He looked incredibly uncomfortable.

    "So what? It's not like she hasn't heard this before." I turned towards her. "Hi, Helen."

    "Hi, Adam. Hi, Zach," she replied. "I see you've been parking cars."

    I spoke for both of us. "Yep. Been making money." Zach was looking terrified. He did not want to be privy to what we might say to each other. I don't know what he expected. Maybe he's broken up with some insane GFs, IDK. But my ex and I are completely at ease with each other and can't really offend each other. As I said, we were nearly perfect matches, except for the Supervision part of things.

    "Adam, I was walking by and saw you and I wondered if you could give me a ride home", she said. I gave Zach a look that said "And there it is."

    "Sure. Just let me put some things away first. I'll let you two talk." And I walked away from my charming SLI ex and my terrified LIE neighbor and left them to sort out their ITR.

    When I returned, a few minutes later with the car keys, Zach was smiling and was genuinely engaged in an obviously interesting conversation. My SLI ex is extremely smart, gracious, and can be very charming. He was obviously experiencing Supervision, where he just naturally admired the hell out of his Supervisor.

    "What are you guys talking about?", I asked.

    She said "We were just talking about how hard it is to quit smoking." Her Si to his Si-PoLR.

    "Yeah. You tried seven times. It was hell." Hell on me, that is.

    "But I succeeded. Now I don't even like the smell of cigarettes."

    "OK, let's go. Zach doesn't have all day. Later, Zach." He was looking slightly dazed and in love, like he'd never met any woman like her before. Lol. I got her out of there before she could dissuade him of that idea.


    I have to admit, I got along pretty well with her. Maybe because we are both -Te subtypes and have similar backgrounds. I also know that she's the deadest of dead ends.

    Now I'm looking for an ESI whom I can click with as well. In both directions. They are so hard to find.

    "Where, oh where, is my Own True Love?"
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 10-23-2021 at 08:41 PM.

  24. #64
    PinKDiGiT18's Avatar
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    @Adam Strange

    Some of your posts regarding your ex-wife sound a touch as though you are still in love with her. Is that an accurate assessment?

    I ask as I am, unfortunately, still not over my supervisor ex myself.

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    Adam Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinKDiGiT18 View Post
    @Adam Strange

    Some of your posts regarding your ex-wife sound a touch as though you are still in love with her. Is that an accurate assessment?

    I ask as I am, unfortunately, still not over my supervisor ex myself.
    @PinKDiGiT18, am I still in love with my ex? I'd say No. I mean, I get along with her pretty well and I usually like her, but I'd never in a million years consider living with her again or getting back together again.

    We were friends for a long time before we slept together and that kind of means (to me, anyway) that the basis of our relationship is friendship and understanding. But I only see her about five times a year now, and I'm fine with that. If I spend more than about fifteen minutes with her, I start to remember all the bad that our marriage evolved to have, and that's definitely not good.

    I remember when, late in our marriage when she had moved out and I was still thinking I was married to her and was trying to get her back, a woman I was having lunch with asked me if I WANTED her back.
    Well, because I had been married for a long time, there are certain questions that you don't ask yourself in a long term marriage, and that had been one of them, but when she opened the question, I realized that the last few years of our marriage had not been good at all, and that I really DIDN'T want her back.
    I filed for divorce shortly after that conversation.

    Don't mistake my like for her for love. Liking and loving are not on the same axis, meaning that loving is not just liking x 10, it's something completely different. Like the direction Up and the color Red. You can like someone you don't love, and you can love someone you don't like. With my ex, it's the former.

    As for you not being "over" your Supervisor ex, I wouldn't worry about it. It takes about four years to really get someone out of your system to the point where, rather than hating them, you don't care about them much at all.

    That "four years" statement is for long term relationships. For short-term relationships, it's more like one year to get in, and one year to get out. This is actually why I've tried to develop my VI abilities. I'm hoping that a good ESI will be better than my ex, but I don't have 100 years in which to try out fifty ESIs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    ...... I'm hoping that a good ESI will be better than my ex, but I don't have 100 years in which to try out fifty ESIs.
    "Better" as a person? "Better" to agree with or support you? "Better" to understand you? "Better" to tolerate your idiosyncrasies? The most well-meaning LIE may be asking too much of even a saint-worthy ESI. Duality won't likely be a vehicle with all the options that one could ever desire.

    a.k.a. I/O

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