Enneagram type 8w9 for LIE/ENTj and LSE/ESTj

[UDP]

In your opinion, how would an 8w9 LIE differ from an 8w9 LSE?
This is not about me, this is simply about the difference.
You can also differentiate between any other 8w9 + socionics type, if you'd like.


I am curious to see what so many people see in 8w9

[Ezra]

The only description of an 8w9 on the net is here:

Eight With a 9 Wing

Healthy Eights with a 9 wing often have an aura of preternatural calm, like they haven't had a self-doubt in decades. Take their authority for granted - queen or king of all they survey. May be gentle, kind-hearted, quieter. Often nurturing, protective parents; steady, supportive friends. Informal and unpretentious, patient, laconic, generally somewhat introverted. Sometimes a dry or ironic sense of humor. May have an aura of implicit, simmering anger rather like a sleeping volcano. Slow to erupt but when they do it's sudden and explosive. When entranced, the 9 wing brings an Eight a kind of callous numbness. They can be oblivious to the force of their anger until after they've hurt someone. Calmly dominating, colder; may have an indifference to softer emotions. If very unhealthy, they can be mean without remorse or aggressive in the service of stupid ends. Paranoid plotting, muddled thinking, moral laziness. Can be vengeful in ill-conceived ways, abuse those they love, don't know when to quit.

Real-Life Eights With a 9 Wing: Edward Asner, Johnny Cash, Fidel Castro, Ty Cobb, Michael Douglas, Milton Erickson, Linda Fiorentino, Geronimo, John Huston, Evel Knievel, Lee Marvin, Golda Meir, Robert Mitchum, Dixy Lee Ray, Mickey Rourke, Marge Schott.

Movie Eights With a 9 Wing: Robert De Niro, The Mission; Clint Eastwood, White Hunter, Black Heart; Rutger Hauer, Ladyhawke; Judd Hirsch, Ordinary People; William Hurt, The Doctor; Shirley MacLaine, Used People; Lee Marvin, Gorky Park; Jack Palance, City Slickers; Gena Rowlands, Gloria; John Wayne, The Shootist.

The difference between an 8w9 LIE and an 8w9 LSE is that the former is an LIE while the latter is an LSE.

[UDP]

[Expat]

I am curious to see what so many people see in 8w9

Is your question, "why so many LIEs, as well as UDP, take 8w9 as their enneatype?"

To me the answer is that 8w9 is a "diluted" form of 8, and especially 8w7 which is more like a "jock" kind of Se EP.

And why 8 for LIE? Simply because of the focus on independence and freedom from control by others, which 8 profiles say it's the actual 8 motivation -- a drive to control others more in order to remain in ultimate control of oneself. This is consistent with being Te EJ: a drive to steer their own external reality ie to remain in control.

But if you want an explanation as to the source of the confusion, with Ezra having one narrow interpretation of 8 which clashes with LIEs being 8s -- it's simple.

The enneagram types are very strongly influenced by Jung's types. Jung himself did not associate "power" or "control" etc with Extraverted Sensing -- that was Augustas own (very correct imo) personal contribution. The Extraverted Sensing type of Jung is more like a fun-seeker.

The drive to control the external environment, power, in Jung is reather seen in his Extraverted Thinking type, which is a mix of many logical extraverts and not just a little of LSI.

The concept of enneagram 8 is largely influenced by Jung's Extraverted Thinking type, but with added focus on the "control" and "domination" bit that makes it resemble Socionics Se a lot.

That is why this discussion, raised by Ezra, is futile. He interprets 8 from the point of view of Se, not realizing that there is a Te side to it as well- as in Te EJ, not as in Te enneagram 5.

LIEs recognize the Te EJ aspect and a bit of Se, while also thinking that 8 puts too much weight on it.

That is why this discussion, and Ezra's repeated assertions that LIEs can't be 8s so they have to be some other enneatype, is extremly tiresome. It will end when he finally accepts that the enneagram is an incomplete system.

[Gilly]

I don't see how you can separate Te from EJ temperament as a whole in terms of this general concept of "control" as you relate it to Te. It even talks about controlling people; much more Fe than Te.

[UDP]

That is all very good, thank you.

He interprets 8 from the point of view of Se, not realizing that there is a Te side to it as well- as in Te EJ, not as in Te enneagram 5.

I agree that E8 and LIE is not incompatible. I believe one of my professors is one, in fact - an LIE Te 8w9. (He in fact looks remarkably similar to Expat)

[misutii]

this is the description from "Wisdom of the Enneagram":

THE EIGHT WITH A NINE WING: THE BEAR
Average: These people seem to have a dual nature, manifesting themselves differently in different areas of their lives. For instance, they can be warm and affectionate at home but highly determined and aggressive at work. People of this subtype generally like to live quietly and unobtrusively, preferring to control their affairs from behind the scenes. They also tend to speak slowly and to be highly attuned to the nonverbal cues and body language of others- friendly while secretly sizing people up. Strategic and watchful, they almost dare others to underestimate them. Eights of this subtype can be stubborn, impassive, and quietly menacing. When they lose their tempers, the explosion comes suddenly and violently, and then is gone.

[Ezra]

To me the answer is that 8w9 is a "diluted" form of 8, and especially 8w7 which is more like a "jock" kind of Se EP.

Only the stupid ones. I'm not. Joy isn't. 8w7s are also clearer thinkers.

The enneagram types are very strongly influenced by Jung's types. Jung himself did not associate "power" or "control" etc with Extraverted Sensing -- that was Augustas own (very correct imo) personal contribution. The Extraverted Sensing type of Jung is more like a fun-seeker.

The drive to control the external environment, power, in Jung is reather seen in his Extraverted Thinking type, which is a mix of many logical extraverts and not just a little of LSI.

The concept of enneagram 8 is largely influenced by Jung's Extraverted Thinking type, but with added focus on the "control" and "domination" bit that makes it resemble Socionics Se a lot.

This is why I am ESTJ in MBTT, but not in socionics. But Jung's Te is different to Augusta's. Jung's Te is like socionics' Se. So what's the difference between socionics and MBTT Te? That's what I want to know. If there isn't one, why can't I be LSE or LIE in socionics? Because I definitely am not a Se MBTT type.

LIEs recognize the Te EJ aspect and a bit of Se, while also thinking that 8 puts too much weight on it.

This is what makes me think the 8w7 can't be an LIE, but the 8w9 can. They are more gentle people, and will probably not like their aggression as much i.e. LSE 8w9. Yeah, this is a point worth noting, UDP. LSEs don't approve of their aggression, whereas LIEs think it's appropriate sometimes.

[Ezra]

this is the description from "Wisdom of the Enneagram":

THE EIGHT WITH A NINE WING: THE BEAR
Average: These people seem to have a dual nature, manifesting themselves differently in different areas of their lives. For instance, they can be warm and affectionate at home but highly determined and aggressive at work. People of this subtype generally like to live quietly and unobtrusively, preferring to control their affairs from behind the scenes. They also tend to speak slowly and to be highly attuned to the nonverbal cues and body language of others- friendly while secretly sizing people up. Strategic and watchful, they almost dare others to underestimate them. Eights of this subtype can be stubborn, impassive, and quietly menacing. When they lose their tempers, the explosion comes suddenly and violently, and then is gone.

Yeah, that's a quality resource that, but I don't have a copy on me sadly.

[Expat]

To me the answer is that 8w9 is a "diluted" form of 8, and especially 8w7 which is more like a "jock" kind of Se EP.

Only the stupid ones. I'm not. Joy isn't. 8w7s are also clearer thinkers.

Ok, fair enough. I should have said "when compared to the 8w9".

This is why I am ESTJ in MBTT, but not in socionics. But Jung's Te is different to Augusta's. Jung's Te is like socionics' Se. So what's the difference between socionics and MBTT Te? That's what I want to know. If there isn't one, why can't I be LSE or LIE in socionics? Because I definitely am not a Se MBTT type.

This is closer to what I think, but a bit simplistic. I think there are overlaps. I think Jung's Extraverted Thinking type has more than a little LSI and SLE in it, but also a lot of Te. So it's mixed.

LIEs recognize the Te EJ aspect and a bit of Se, while also thinking that 8 puts too much weight on it.

This is what makes me think the 8w7 can't be an LIE, but the 8w9 can. They are more gentle people, and will probably not like their aggression as much i.e. LSE 8w9. Yeah, this is a point worth noting, UDP. LSEs don't approve of their aggression, whereas LIEs think it's appropriate sometimes.

I just thought of something else. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to associate 8 with "gut", which would be similar to irrationality. Now if true, of course LIEs wouldn't be 8s. They would be more like 1s - by default.

In my opinion, what happens is this. You are really a SLE and you see yourself as 8. So if you use yourself as reference point, then of course, from your point of view, types that are (1) rational, (2) do not focus primarily on Se and (3) have Fi insecurities "can't" be 8s, because all of that goes against you and so - assuming you are the 8 benchmark - of course LIEs couldn't be 8s.

The question, then, is how your perception of what an 8 necessarily is is not skewed by your own self-perception. I suggest you take a broader view of this.

But of course, IF we were to agree that no member of the "gut" triad can be a socionics rational, then obviously LIEs can't be 8s and 1s would be the next best choice. But I would still say that 1 is not a good understanding of LIEs since 1 is so much more clearly IJ.

[Ezra]

I just thought of something else. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to associate 8 with "gut", which would be similar to irrationality. Now if true, of course LIEs wouldn't be 8s. They would be more like 1s - by default.

You've just given me a thought. Yes, I think that is a good point, although it is not where I'm coming from. 8s are, by definition, gut people, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're 'irrational' as such. Otherwise it would make no sense when it came down to typing 8s in MBTT as most commonly ESTJs, ENTJs and INTJs.

In my opinion, what happens is this. You are really a SLE and you see yourself as 8. So if you use yourself as reference point, then of course, from your point of view, types that are (1) rational, (2) do not focus primarily on Se and (3) have Fi insecurities "can't" be 8s, because all of that goes against you and so - assuming you are the 8 benchmark - of course LIEs couldn't be 8s.

The question, then, is how your perception of what an 8 necessarily is is not skewed by your own self-perception. I suggest you take a broader view of this.

But of course, IF we were to agree that no member of the "gut" triad can be a socionics rational, then obviously LIEs can't be 8s and 1s would be the next best choice. But I would still say that 1 is not a good understanding of LIEs since 1 is so much more clearly IJ.

Here, you are wrong. I feel like you're doubting my ability to reason objectively. That is not actually what I thought. I know what I am, and I know others can be different. I've experimented and come out as INTJ, ENTJ, ESTJ, ENTP, LSI and SLE in MBTT, Keirsey and socionics. They are all possible types for the 8, and they're all common types for the 8. I tend to disregard anything beyond my own experience by nature. Because I haven't really come out as LIE, it doesn't seem right to me. It seems foreign.

By the way, I agree with what you say about the 1 and IJ. Their lives are defined by rules, boundaries and laws. This is quite IJish.

[Expat]

Here, you are wrong. I feel like you're doubting my ability to reason objectively.

No. Rather I was thinking of this:

I tend to disregard anything beyond my own experience by nature.

Precisely.

[Ezra]

Here, you are wrong. I feel like you're doubting my ability to reason objectively.

No. Rather I was thinking of this:

I tend to disregard anything beyond my own experience by nature.

Precisely.

Okay, fair enough.

[Ezra]

Another thing about the 8 is this. They're by nature aristocratic. They sceptical to new ideas, and don't trust people straight away. It's not something I personally am, but I think that's because I'm healthier. But a welcoming 8 with open arms to new ideas and theories etc? I don't know about that.