Friends as lovers

[P-chan]

From another topic:

I will soon be celebrating my 20th anniversary with the man who did steal my heart in a very sneaking and insidious way - by first becoming one of my best friends. No pushing, no pressure, just my friend and then my lover and then my husband.

I've also heard that if a man is the best friend of a woman, he may actually have a harder time becoming her lover than other men who don't know her.

The poster quoted above is INTJ and thus obviously not a typical person, though.

Thoughts on when being a friend is an advantage or disadvantage in becoming a lover?

[XcaliburGirl]

I am now closer to 50 than I am to 40, and I will soon be celebrating my 20th anniversary with the man who did steal my heart in a very sneaking and insidious way - by first becoming one of my best friends. No pushing, no pressure, just my friend and then my lover and then my husband. He is, BTW, an ISFP, and as you can imagine there have been a lot of opportunities for misunderstandings down through the years. Against all odds he is still my best friend and if anything I love him more today than I did twenty years ago.

Sounds a little familiar.
I've been dating my ISFp for 2 weeks. Started out as friends, with me very worried about him because it was obvious he had a crush on me, but I wasn't (at the time) attracted to him, though he was very quickly becoming my best friend. He has that happy-go-lucky ISFp demeanor and I thought it was cute, but not what I was looking for. Only after I gave him the "just friends" speech and became comfortable hanging out alone w/ him and talking to him about everthing, did I realize the deeper, sexier, mature side of him (though he denies it exists, he says he's 27 going on 4). Things are moving along rather quickly, partially because a lot of the supposedly difficult steps happened before we started dating. Already met parents and siblings. Already talked about all the important stuff: goals, dreams, jobs, money, religion, love, marriage, kids, life in general. Everything's very comfortable and honest. Of course, this is my first real relationship, so I can't really compare it w/ anything. For what it's worth.

[discojoe]

Of course, this is my first real relationship, so I can't really compare it w/ anything. For what it's worth.

n00b

[Creepy-fry]

I am now closer to 50 than I am to 40, and I will soon be celebrating my 20th anniversary with the man who did steal my heart in a very sneaking and insidious way - by first becoming one of my best friends. No pushing, no pressure, just my friend and then my lover and then my husband. He is, BTW, an ISFP, and as you can imagine there have been a lot of opportunities for misunderstandings down through the years. Against all odds he is still my best friend and if anything I love him more today than I did twenty years ago.

Sounds a little familiar.
I've been dating my ISFp for 2 weeks. Started out as friends, with me very worried about him because it was obvious he had a crush on me, but I wasn't (at the time) attracted to him, though he was very quickly becoming my best friend. He has that happy-go-lucky ISFp demeanor and I thought it was cute, but not what I was looking for. Only after I gave him the "just friends" speech and became comfortable hanging out alone w/ him and talking to him about everthing, did I realize the deeper, sexier, mature side of him (though he denies it exists, he says he's 27 going on 4). Things are moving along rather quickly, partially because a lot of the supposedly difficult steps happened before we started dating. Already met parents and siblings. Already talked about all the important stuff: goals, dreams, jobs, money, religion, love, marriage, kids, life in general. Everything's very comfortable and honest. Of course, this is my first real relationship, so I can't really compare it w/ anything. For what it's worth.

you kidding me, thats ur first relationship? and you give him the "lets just be friend speach" too? are you a super model? but it can't be, because super model usually has alot of relationship. why didn't you open yourelf and get into the relationship more often?

[alex]

From another topic:
The poster quoted above is INTJ and thus obviously not a typical person, though.

haha, the way that is said is just great.

Becoming good friends is my strategy. I tried it 4 years ago w/ an ISTj.. didn't work but I attribute that 'failure' to other factors. I remember at the time that I was very happy with the 'cleanness' and ideality of the friend->lover transition. Of course it never got anywhere close to lover, but not being rejected after confessing my feelings made me feel good enough -- for a time, heh.

I'm currently in the ~same limbo area with an ESFj. There seems to be more development this time though, so here's hoping it works out.

ps, Dear Fry,
For some reason your advice really bothers me.. I guess because however logical it is, 'dating' just makes me really sad and discussing the merits of it pisses me off.

[FDG]

Sounds alien to me. If I want a person as a lover, I am straight. If she wants to be just friends, I cut contact.
However, my lover is obviously a friend, a very good friend, too. But first of all a lover.

[Waddlesworth]

Well there is this ISFp I have known for about four years now. She is going to move in with me as my roommate but we both discussed the possibility of starting to have feelings. She said that if she did she would have to leave although it was okay if I wanted to strut around in the nude. Part of me totally agrees with her but another part of me is suspicious, as though we both know that things are going to happen between the two of us.

Last week I layed in her bed next to her and she started doing this puppy dog thing like putting her face in my face, very up close and personal. she was incessant with it and it made me very awkward so i sorta layed there like "uhh" which didn't seem to bother her. then she proceeded to tell me she used to do that with her ex-boyfriend.

a couple of people told me she was testing me, to see if it was okay for her to move in. I'm not sure.

Any comments

[P-chan]

She is going to move in with me as my roommate but we both discussed the possibility of starting to have feelings. She said that if she did she would have to leave

Why would she have to leave?

[Waddlesworth]

I don't know. I think she just says that as sort of a cover for it. can't really give you an answer to that.

[Creepy-msk]

yeah would it be so bad to have more feelings for her? if you want to avoid all that find another roomie.

[Creepy-Guest]

This whole room mate thing. I'm in a relationship with an INTJ female and she's talked about ending some relationship because the guy seems detached. She didn't want a room mate, she wanted a relationship. If I act "attached" she seems to pull away. What's that about? If you want someone involved (not detached) then how are they supposed to act? Emotional attachment seems to be out of the question. I feel like I'm in a relationship with Mr. Spock from Star Trek sometimes.

[Angel von Himmel]

Being friends with a girl will guarantee you a relationship, but it will not guarantee you sex!

[Creepy-heathiep]

Of course, this is my first real relationship, so I can't really compare it w/ anything. For what it's worth.

n00b

^5

[Joy]

This thread friggin irritates me. That said...

P-chan, I think that it's possible for some of the best relationships to come from friiendships, but it's a really touchy thing. Getting into a relationship involves all sorts of risks even when you barely know a person. If you're friends, you have much much more to lose. I have totally hot friends that I would never date because I value their friendship too much. (Like Ishy! She's someone I anticipate a very long friendship with. Even if she lived near me and we were both single, I totally think of her like a sister and value her friendship way too much to risk having it messed up by romantic feelings.)

Alicia, that sounds wonderful. msk, you are correct. As for the rest of you... Waddles, perhaps she needs to feel safe? Don't try for anything else right now. Just see how things naturally progress. FDG, what's wrong with being friends with a woman? Your statement makes it sound like you have very little respect for women. Heath, am I mistunderstanding or are you saying that you've have 5 relationships? Fry, you have a point about being open but you should not make generalizations about attractive women or assume that just because dating at a young age is typical means it's right for everyone. I see absolutely nothing wrong with waiting until adulthood to date. rmcnew, I'm sorry, you're wrong. Maybe that's how some people view it, but it is not the reality of male-female friendships. And on that note...

Of course it never got anywhere close to lover, but not being rejected after confessing my feelings made me feel good enough -- for a time, heh.

It's sad, but true. That's how things often work. I am not a typical females by any means... but... I think what I'm about to say is true of most females. Being friends with men is tricky (sucks for me because I get along better with males than females). It often ends just like you described... one person (usually the male for whatever reason) developes feelings and then confesses them, the other person is not interested in being more than friends but doesn't wish to end the friendship and tries to act the same, and then the one with the feelings loses interest in the friendship. Speaking from the perspective of both sides of this, it hurts to be the one who just wants to be friends more than the one who developes feelings. At least for me. From the perspective of the one with the feelings, a friend who doesn't treat me differently is a very valuable friend, for their attitude shows that I am as valuable or more valuable for my friendship than for anything else. But I dunno, I guess there are a lot of people who wouldn't be as appreciative of that.

I guess what I'm saying is that a true friendship is quite comparable to a relationship. It takes time to build and is based on many factors. There has to be trust, and losing a good friend can hurt as much as losing a relationship. Relationships, however, at least in the early stages, can begin and end in the blink of an eye, and there are A LOT of things that can go wrong. Moving a close friendship to a relationship is MUCH more complicated and risky than just hooking up with that guy who you met last weekend. Who cares if you end up not talking to that guy?

[Creepy-]

FDG, what's wrong with being friends with a woman? Your statement makes it sound like you have very little respect for women.

What I meant was:

I don't want to be FIRST friends with a girl that I want as lover. It's not because I don't value friendships, but because I can't see the point of a relationship in which parties have such different goals - it is just a way to further misunderstanding and pain. With girls I want as friends, there is no problem whatsoever.

[Creepy-]

FDG, what's wrong with being friends with a woman? Your statement makes it sound like you have very little respect for women.

What I meant was:

I don't want to be FIRST friends with a girl that I want as lover. It's not because I don't value friendships, but because I can't see the point of a relationship in which parties have such different goals - it is just a way to further misunderstanding and pain. With girls I want as friends, there is no problem whatsoever. Actually, my best friend is an ENFP women.

[Creepy-]

Being friends with men is tricky (sucks for me because I get along better with males than females). It often ends just like you described... one person (usually the male for whatever reason) developes feelings and then confesses them, the other person is not interested in being more than friends but doesn't wish to end the friendship and tries to act the same, and then the one with the feelings loses interest in the friendship. Speaking from the perspective of both sides of this, it hurts to be the one who just wants to be friends more than the one who developes feelings.

So true, Joy.

Waddles:

Part of me totally agrees with her but another part of me is suspicious, as though we both know that things are going to happen between the two of us.

I think you could very well be right on the money here.

Given the situation, living in close quarters with each other, I can't imagine that something wouldn't happen. One if you is going to start liking the other if one or both of you don't already.

I'll play this out a little in my head here. I'm not saying any of this will be the truth, I'm just thinking about what it could mean if I was in the same or similar situation. This is just me, I know nothing about your ISFp friend.

The fact that she put her face in yours obviously means she's already fairly close to you and comfortable with you. Yeah, she may be testing. She probably wanted to see what your reaction would be (I read a lot into facial expression) and if you would do something in return. She may already have hopes that something will happen but is just saying that she'd have to leave because she's not completely sure where you stand on things, hence, the "test". My experience with the ENTp I know is that he's rarely ever straightforward with exactly how he feels, and often I wonder if he even knows exactly how he feels (I have no idea how you are) but she might not be completely straightforward with her own feelings if you're not straigtforward with yours because she doesn't want to get hurt/be rejected/lose the friendship.

Did she say what her reasons were for having to leave if she started to develop feelings for you? It seems unfair somehow. Like, its ok for you to have feelings for her, but it's not ok for her to have feelings for you. It's almost like it's some sort of manipulation. Perhaps it's a way to get you to confess your feelings, if you have any. It seems like kind of a trap.

Of course she could really mean what she said about leaving if she ever has feelings for you. I don't want to steer you wrong, these are just things that came to my mind and it doesn't make it the truth, I just thought I'd offer some things for you to consider.

[Ms. Kensington]

FDG, what's wrong with being friends with a woman? Your statement makes it sound like you have very little respect for women.

What I meant was:

I don't want to be FIRST friends with a girl that I want as lover. It's not because I don't value friendships, but because I can't see the point of a relationship in which parties have such different goals - it is just a way to further misunderstanding and pain. With girls I want as friends, there is no problem whatsoever. Actually, my best friend is an ENFP women.

yah i think he was just being ENTj

[Elizabeth]

That last guest with the long post was me.

[Waddlesworth]

Waddles:

Part of me totally agrees with her but another part of me is suspicious, as though we both know that things are going to happen between the two of us.

I think you could very well be right on the money here.

Given the situation, living in close quarters with each other, I can't imagine that something wouldn't happen. One if you is going to start liking the other if one or both of you don't already.

I'll play this out a little in my head here. I'm not saying any of this will be the truth, I'm just thinking about what it could mean if I was in the same or similar situation. This is just me, I know nothing about your ISFp friend.

The fact that she put her face in yours obviously means she's already fairly close to you and comfortable with you. Yeah, she may be testing. She probably wanted to see what your reaction would be (I read a lot into facial expression) and if you would do something in return. She may already have hopes that something will happen but is just saying that she'd have to leave because she's not completely sure where you stand on things, hence, the "test". My experience with the ENTp I know is that he's rarely ever straightforward with exactly how he feels, and often I wonder if he even knows exactly how he feels (I have no idea how you are) but she might not be completely straightforward with her own feelings if you're not straigtforward with yours because she doesn't want to get hurt/be rejected/lose the friendship.

Did she say what her reasons were for having to leave if she started to develop feelings for you? It seems unfair somehow. Like, its ok for you to have feelings for her, but it's not ok for her to have feelings for you. It's almost like it's some sort of manipulation. Perhaps it's a way to get you to confess your feelings, if you have any. It seems like kind of a trap.

Of course she could really mean what she said about leaving if she ever has feelings for you. I don't want to steer you wrong, these are just things that came to my mind and it doesn't make it the truth, I just thought I'd offer some things for you to consider.

Wow, thanks for the input. I have had similar thoughts about this.

It is also true for me to have trouble knowing exactly how I really feel about someone. I fear commitment because I am not sure if my feelings are true or if i just want something physical or whatever. I just am not sure and this makes me uncomfortable.

Sometimes I sense manipulation, but then I think it's just wishful thinking on my part. I can never really know what I am imagining and what is real in this regard. But I have had similar suspicions towards the actions you have noted. just last night her story changed as well. instead of saying she'd leave she said she would spend less time around. And I did some testing as well and even brought up the point that if I started having feelings I would be hurt because the feelings might not be returned, and that this could cause serious problems. She then said that she was afraid if we got together it would ruin the friendship and i corrected her by saying "woah, wait! who ever said anything about us getting together?" so i see what you mean by manipulation. Its sort of like she is skillfully dropping tiny hints in both directions. she tries to make me feel like im not exactly her type, then she turns around and admits or says something else that insinuates the contrary. It just don't want to deal with it.

I know she is my dual and our interaction is very good. i am very much at peace being around her, as she is with me. but i worry that perhaps one of us(im worrying this will be me) will wind up falling in love and the feelings won't be mutual. then a whole world of hurting can arise. One of us will want to bring people over or go on dates or want to talk about their love lives. it just seems like problems.

She is a best friend and she needs the room so i can't say no. its just a very crummy situation. could turn out good, but i don't know. I have noticed that when i mention other girls she seems to be less interested or stand-offish. she isn't as encouraging for me to date as though she's got dibs. then again, i could be imagining.

[Creepy-msk]

if you have such worries and she is a best friend then you must say no, maybe?

or let her crash until she can find another place. you'll both survive.

also would be the better option if you DO want to try dating her!

[Joy]

FDG, what's wrong with being friends with a woman? Your statement makes it sound like you have very little respect for women.

What I meant was:

I don't want to be FIRST friends with a girl that I want as lover. It's not because I don't value friendships, but because I can't see the point of a relationship in which parties have such different goals - it is just a way to further misunderstanding and pain. With girls I want as friends, there is no problem whatsoever. Actually, my best friend is an ENFP women.

fair enough

[Kirana]

well, for INTJs, in order for the girl to seriously consider you as a lover is if you are also a friend. anything less will lead to lots of hesitation and doubt. i personally cannot imagine having a relationship with someone who is not also a friend. either the guy is simultaneously lover and friend from the start, or friend first, and becomes lover. no one who is not considered a friend would ever get to the stage of lover - he is a stranger, he doesn't know me, and i can't generate enough trust with such a person to reach relationship status.

although, i do have a truly platonic relationship with a friend since high school and even though we're fast friends we're simply not attracted to each other. i know that's rare.

[Elizabeth]

Waddles:

Hm, it seems like you're both in some sort of emotional stand off and neither of you wants to budge because you're waiting for the other to say something. There's testing from both sides and you both keep talking about this subject so it's more than likely not resolved and there's at least some tension I'm guessing. The tension, if it does exist, will probably remain until some firm lines are drawn because it seems as though neither of you are willing to say to the other that absolutely nothing is going to happen and you don't want it to happen, or the opposite, that you want something to happen.

I would definitely put a lot of thought into letting her live with you. If this tension is real and you don't resolve it, it could poison your relationship...even if you are duals. It seems almost inevitable that one or the other of you is going to form some sort of emotional attachment. It sounds to me like it's there already to some extent. From my point of view, repeat...from my point of view, he only way I can see this turning out to be good is if the two of you do form a relationship. I guess there is a very slight possibility that neither of you have feelings now and never will and things will be fine, but I just don't think that will be the case. I think some lines and boundaries need to be drawn if you do decide to live together, that way there's no grey area.

I could add more concerning what I think about the interaction between the two of you, but I don't want to steer you the wrong way. I don't know how closely what I've said here resembles the truth. I've based it on what the situations would mean to me and some experiences I've had personally, but it's also assumption.

I hope you get things worked out!