IM elements & quadras

[liveandletlive]

In one of the threads in general discussion we were talking about methods to figure out your type and I brought up reading about the different IM elements. Some people said that this method can be more confusing than helpful to newcomers, and I understand that, but to you guys who know the theory, when you read about your type and your quadra's IM elements (in the ego and id blocks of model a, obviously) do you feel like they make sense to you or that those are how you deal with information and decisions? The only reason I ask this is because I feel this way with my IM elements, but because us gammas are known as the "pragmatists" it could just be that those IM elements make sense in a counterintuitive, common sense kinda way. What do you guys think? It would be good to know if this helps to identify type for future tests, interviews, etc. for determing others' types.

[Logos]

In one of the threads in general discussion we were talking about methods to figure out your type and I brought up reading about the different IM elements. Some people said that this method can be more confusing than helpful to newcomers, and I understand that, but to you guys who know the theory, when you read about your type and your quadra's IM elements (in the ego and id blocks of model a, obviously) do you feel like they make sense to you or that those are how you deal with information and decisions? The only reason I ask this is because I feel this way with my IM elements, but because us gammas are known as the "pragmatists" it could just be that those IM elements make sense in a counterintuitive, common sense kinda way. What do you guys think? It would be good to know if this helps to identify type for future tests, interviews, etc. for determing others' types.

No, the pragmatists are the STs. There are no Gamma "pragmatists."

[liveandletlive]

In one of the threads in general discussion we were talking about methods to figure out your type and I brought up reading about the different IM elements. Some people said that this method can be more confusing than helpful to newcomers, and I understand that, but to you guys who know the theory, when you read about your type and your quadra's IM elements (in the ego and id blocks of model a, obviously) do you feel like they make sense to you or that those are how you deal with information and decisions? The only reason I ask this is because I feel this way with my IM elements, but because us gammas are known as the "pragmatists" it could just be that those IM elements make sense in a counterintuitive, common sense kinda way. What do you guys think? It would be good to know if this helps to identify type for future tests, interviews, etc. for determing others' types.

No, the pragmatists are the STs. There are no Gamma "pragmatists."

First of all, umm NO http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Gamma_Quadra.

Second of all, you should be aware that there are no universally agreed upon references to types, quadras, whatever in socionics, so yeah... open your mind up a little- or are you one of your self-called pragmatists?

Third of all, thanks for answering the real point of this post

[Exodus]

IM elements are not counter-intuitive at all. They're actually very obvious, general parts of life.

Take Te vs. Ti: whenever you have to make a choice between the most practical option (Te) and the theoretically correct one (Ti). (roughly theory vs. practice)
Or Se vs. Si: wearing high heels and looking good but hurting your feet (Se over Si), or wearing flip-flops and looking like a bum but feeling comfortable (Si over Se)?

[Logos]

In one of the threads in general discussion we were talking about methods to figure out your type and I brought up reading about the different IM elements. Some people said that this method can be more confusing than helpful to newcomers, and I understand that, but to you guys who know the theory, when you read about your type and your quadra's IM elements (in the ego and id blocks of model a, obviously) do you feel like they make sense to you or that those are how you deal with information and decisions? The only reason I ask this is because I feel this way with my IM elements, but because us gammas are known as the "pragmatists" it could just be that those IM elements make sense in a counterintuitive, common sense kinda way. What do you guys think? It would be good to know if this helps to identify type for future tests, interviews, etc. for determing others' types.

No, the pragmatists are the STs. There are no Gamma "pragmatists."

First of all, umm NO http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Gamma_Quadra.

No where on the Gamma Quadra page are the pragmatism or pragmatists on the page except as a separate link for Pragmatists Club at the bottom of the page.

http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...of_pragmatists

Second of all, you should be aware that there are no universally agreed upon references to types, quadras, whatever in socionics, so yeah... open your mind up a little- or are you one of your self-called pragmatists?

Third of all, thanks for answering the real point of this post

What on earth are you talking about? Nothing of what you said made a lick of sense.

[Exodus]

That's just quadra values, of course, but the other pairings are equally noticeable.

[liveandletlive]

In one of the threads in general discussion we were talking about methods to figure out your type and I brought up reading about the different IM elements. Some people said that this method can be more confusing than helpful to newcomers, and I understand that, but to you guys who know the theory, when you read about your type and your quadra's IM elements (in the ego and id blocks of model a, obviously) do you feel like they make sense to you or that those are how you deal with information and decisions? The only reason I ask this is because I feel this way with my IM elements, but because us gammas are known as the "pragmatists" it could just be that those IM elements make sense in a counterintuitive, common sense kinda way. What do you guys think? It would be good to know if this helps to identify type for future tests, interviews, etc. for determing others' types.

No, the pragmatists are the STs. There are no Gamma "pragmatists."

First of all, umm NO http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Gamma_Quadra.

No where on the Gamma Quadra page are the pragmatism or pragmatists on the page except as a separate link for Pragmatists Club at the bottom of the page.

http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...of_pragmatists

This may be true, but I have read about gammas being known as the pragmatists- don't care enough to look for it

Second of all, you should be aware that there are no universally agreed upon references to types, quadras, whatever in socionics, so yeah... open your mind up a little- or are you one of your self-called pragmatists?

Third of all, thanks for answering the real point of this post

What on earth are you talking about? Nothing of what you said made a lick of sense.

OK- so all the socionists in the world don't all sit down and agree on certain names to refer to/call concepts in socionics. For instance, for me, I've been called "the politician," or "the amabassador", or "the performer" and I'm sure there are several other names to refer to my type out there that I haven't even seen. This is also what happened with the whole gamma-naming issue. Thus, please do not dwell on such minute details such as what a concept is called in socionics because the end justifys the means.

[liveandletlive]

IM elements are not counter-intuitive at all. They're actually very obvious, general parts of life.

Take Te vs. Ti: whenever you have to make a choice between the most practical option (Te) and the theoretically correct one (Ti). (roughly theory vs. practice)
Or Se vs. Si: wearing high heels and looking good but hurting your feet (Se over Si), or wearing flip-flops and looking like a bum but feeling comfortable (Si over Se)?

I agree- thanks for supporting my argument

[Jonathan]

One thing that makes IM Elements (and quadras) more complicated is that people have a natural tendency to describe them in ways that are skewed toward those elements they personally identify with.

Typically, people who consider themselves to value X over Y will describe them in such a way that one would seemingly have to be a fool to prefer Y over X.

I think that may be the biggest source of definitional disputes on this forum.

[munenori2]

One thing that makes IM Elements (and quadras) more complicated is that people have a natural tendency to describe them in ways that are skewed toward those elements they personally identify with.

Typically, people who consider themselves to value X over Y will describe them in such a way that one would seemingly have to be a fool to prefer Y over X.

I think that may be the biggest source of definitional disputes on this forum.

Maybe we should all print this off and hang it on our wall.

You know, first rule of Fight Club and all that.

[Blaze]

IM elements are not counter-intuitive at all. They're actually very obvious, general parts of life.

Take Te vs. Ti: whenever you have to make a choice between the most practical option (Te) and the theoretically correct one (Ti). (roughly theory vs. practice)
Or Se vs. Si: wearing high heels and looking good but hurting your feet (Se over Si), or wearing flip-flops and looking like a bum but feeling comfortable (Si over Se)?

ahem. regarding shoes. (is there anything in life more important than shoes, ladies??) i go for comfort, functionality, and beauty. they must meet all those criteria in order to obtain a slot in my closet.

*k back to socionics now*

[Creepy-bg]

I blew out one of my flip flops and had to go back to wearing shoes. I'm pissed

[Blaze]

I blew out one of my flip flops and had to go back to wearing shoes. I'm pissed

what kinda shoes? you like?

[Creepy-bg]

I blew out one of my flip flops and had to go back to wearing shoes. I'm pissed

what kinda shoes? you like?

#1 black ones.

#2. I guess.... they're shoes, what's to like or not like about them?

[Blaze]

I blew out one of my flip flops and had to go back to wearing shoes. I'm pissed

what kinda shoes? you like?

#1 black ones.

#2. I guess.... they're shoes, what's to like or not like about them?

are you kidding? i could go on and one about shoes. black ones, brown ones, red, green, blue....high heels, mid heels, low heels, flats. boots, booties, high heeled and low, pumps, sandals ahhhh so many options and they never get too small if you happen to gain a little weight.

i own about 60 pair i think.

[Creepy-bg]

I blew out one of my flip flops and had to go back to wearing shoes. I'm pissed

what kinda shoes? you like?

#1 black ones.

#2. I guess.... they're shoes, what's to like or not like about them?

are you kidding? i could go on and one about shoes. black ones, brown ones, red, green, blue....high heels, mid heels, low heels, flats. boots, booties, high heeled and low, pumps, sandals ahhhh so many options and they never get too small if you happen to gain a little weight.

i own about 60 pair i think.

I own one (and even that's one too many )

[Blaze]

i knew you were gonna say that....you need a woman dude.

[Creepy-bg]

lol... yeah i do

[liveandletlive]

I blew out one of my flip flops and had to go back to wearing shoes. I'm pissed

what kinda shoes? you like?

#1 black ones.

#2. I guess.... they're shoes, what's to like or not like about them?

are you kidding? i could go on and one about shoes. black ones, brown ones, red, green, blue....high heels, mid heels, low heels, flats. boots, booties, high heeled and low, pumps, sandals ahhhh so many options and they never get too small if you happen to gain a little weight.

i own about 60 pair i think.

haha i as well have a serious footwear addiction. This was a great example of vs. btw. My feet have so many cuts, scars, and calluses from wearing the highest, most uncomfortable shoes in the world, but that look cute. I'll even buy my shoes a couple sizes smaller even though the pain can be sometimes described as excruciating just so my feet look smaller and therefore cuter... I'm sick in the head.

[Exodus]

Ouch.

[liveandletlive]

Ouch.

you're telling me... but no pain, no gain!

[Quirk Satellite Div.]

Ouch.

you're telling me... but no pain, no gain!

Any gain besides perceiving yourself as cute?

[liveandletlive]

Ouch.

you're telling me... but no pain, no gain!

Any gain besides perceiving yourself as cute?

haha well i guess- others perceiving me as cute (in my head), and feeling confident... somehow in my head those 2 things > the ability to walk during or after wearing them, gross feet, and more money for cabs...

[Blaze]

I blew out one of my flip flops and had to go back to wearing shoes. I'm pissed

what kinda shoes? you like?

#1 black ones.

#2. I guess.... they're shoes, what's to like or not like about them?

are you kidding? i could go on and one about shoes. black ones, brown ones, red, green, blue....high heels, mid heels, low heels, flats. boots, booties, high heeled and low, pumps, sandals ahhhh so many options and they never get too small if you happen to gain a little weight.

i own about 60 pair i think.

haha i as well have a serious footwear addiction. This was a great example of vs. btw. My feet have so many cuts, scars, and calluses from wearing the highest, most uncomfortable shoes in the world, but that look cute. I'll even buy my shoes a couple sizes smaller even though the pain can be sometimes described as excruciating just so my feet look smaller and therefore cuter... I'm sick in the head.

i used to endure the pain of good looking ill fitting shoes when younger....now you really don't have to....they make them so well.

*looks at watch* i better get my ass to DSW pronto.

[Jonathan]

Seriously, I don't think wearing uncomfortable shoes because they look good is a good test of being Se-valuing.

First of all, it's more of a male/female thing, related mainly to high heels. I don't think Se guys would wear uncomfortable shoes because of looks.

Secondly, if there is a type-related aspect to it, it's probably more being Se as opposed to being Se-valuing. I just don't think someone focused on Ni wants to be distracted by uncomfortable clothes that might make him more aware of his surroundings.

As to whether Ti vs. Te is well-described as "theory vs. practice," the problem there is that "theory vs. practice" also sounds like S vs. N. I think that in comparing a Beta ST to a Gamma NT, the Beta ST will seem to better represent "practice," whereas the Gamma NT will seem more theoretical.

[Creepy-bg]

I'll even buy my shoes a couple sizes smaller even though the pain can be sometimes described as excruciating just so my feet look smaller and therefore cuter...

people actually care about this?

and if it's a high shoe isn't it going to look big anyway?

I own one (and even that's one too many )

wow you even have me beat. i own three: a pair for jogging, a pair for class, and a pair for work.

but i might have some flip-flops around here somewhere too from when i was in the dorms and had to use a third-worldish community shower...

RIP@ my flip flops

[liveandletlive]

I'll even buy my shoes a couple sizes smaller even though the pain can be sometimes described as excruciating just so my feet look smaller and therefore cuter...

people actually care about this?

and if it's a high shoe isn't it going to look big anyway?

I own one (and even that's one too many )

wow you even have me beat. i own three: a pair for jogging, a pair for class, and a pair for work.

but i might have some flip-flops around here somewhere too from when i was in the dorms and had to use a third-worldish community shower...

RIP@ my flip flops

omg i no... i wish i could go back to the last day i was able to wear flip-flops and cherish every second of it.

[liveandletlive]

Seriously, I don't think wearing uncomfortable shoes because they look good is a good test of being Se-valuing.

First of all, it's more of a male/female thing, related mainly to high heels. I don't think Se guys would wear uncomfortable shoes because of looks.

Secondly, if there is a type-related aspect to it, it's probably more being Se as opposed to being Se-valuing. I just don't think someone focused on Ni wants to be distracted by uncomfortable clothes that might make him more aware of his surroundings.

As to whether Ti vs. Te is well-described as "theory vs. practice," the problem there is that "theory vs. practice" also sounds like S vs. N. I think that in comparing a Beta ST to a Gamma NT, the Beta ST will seem to better represent "practice," whereas the Gamma NT will seem more theoretical.

The whole gender thing is sooooo off it couldn't be more off. My ESFp guy friend where's alligator skin dress shoes and my ISTp girl friend goes to bars and clubs in jeans, sneakers, and a t-shirt. i understand where you're coming from but yeah... a little sexist there- i prefer to be typist if u ask me :wink: wow that was lame lol anyways...

I also see where you're coming from on the whole thing but in terms of types valuing , when they do use their S, in terms of dressing- the details, making an impression... the potential is there. Just because it's weak though it's rarely used so maybe that's where you're coming from. If this doesn't make sense try to picture an ILI's idea of dressing up vs. an LII's idea of dressing up... u dig?

the whole theory vs. practice could also work with p vs. j in that us p's will be like- yay that's a great idea, we should definitely do that someday... and never does it. and the j type responding to the p person- sure, when and where?

[aestrivex]

I also see where you're coming from on the whole thing but in terms of types valuing , when they do use their S, in terms of dressing- the details, making an impression... the potential is there. Just because it's weak though it's rarely used so maybe that's where you're coming from. If this doesn't make sense try to picture an ILI's idea of dressing up vs. an LII's idea of dressing up... u dig?

not remotely. i resent it when i have to get dressed up. i don't find any purpose to it and at all and i don't think i look terribly good when i do it, mostly because i do it not to look good but rather for the express purpose that somebody mandates that i have to dress a certain way. at every instance in my life where i've dressed up in a suit and tie, this has been the reason.


i've made some lifestyle choices also that don't exactly lend themselves to looking good; rather, many of them probably just make me look bizarre. but i'm never sure how much anybody actually cares; very few people around me seem to, or show that they do, anyway.

[Jonathan]

Seriously, I don't think wearing uncomfortable shoes because they look good is a good test of being Se-valuing.

First of all, it's more of a male/female thing, related mainly to high heels. I don't think Se guys would wear uncomfortable shoes because of looks.

Secondly, if there is a type-related aspect to it, it's probably more being Se as opposed to being Se-valuing. I just don't think someone focused on Ni wants to be distracted by uncomfortable clothes that might make him more aware of his surroundings.

As to whether Ti vs. Te is well-described as "theory vs. practice," the problem there is that "theory vs. practice" also sounds like S vs. N. I think that in comparing a Beta ST to a Gamma NT, the Beta ST will seem to better represent "practice," whereas the Gamma NT will seem more theoretical.

The whole gender thing is sooooo off it couldn't be more off. My ESFp guy friend where's alligator skin dress shoes and my ISTp girl friend goes to bars and clubs in jeans, sneakers, and a t-shirt. i understand where you're coming from but yeah... a little sexist there- i prefer to be typist if u ask me :wink: wow that was lame lol anyways...

I also see where you're coming from on the whole thing but in terms of types valuing , when they do use their S, in terms of dressing- the details, making an impression... the potential is there. Just because it's weak though it's rarely used so maybe that's where you're coming from. If this doesn't make sense try to picture an ILI's idea of dressing up vs. an LII's idea of dressing up... u dig?

the whole theory vs. practice could also work with p vs. j in that us p's will be like- yay that's a great idea, we should definitely do that someday... and never does it. and the j type responding to the p person- sure, when and where?

Okay, you're probably right about the gender thing. I don't know too much about styles, and I guess there are guys who are much more into that sort of thing. Still, I suspect the "active" jeans/sneakers/t-shirt look, while often associated with ISps, is actually sort of "in" these days, and there are people who seem to be Se types who also wear that style.

As to "an ILI's idea of dressing up vs. an LII's idea of dressing up," what's the difference? Do you think you can really detect a noticeable difference?

For me, dressing up means wearing a sportcoat and tie. However, the button under the tie can only *appear* to be closed because I can't have anything tight around my neck.

How would a typical ILI or LII idea of dressing up be any different from that?

[aestrivex]

How would a typical ILI or LII idea of dressing up be any different from that?

read mine. i don't know how much it actually differs from your view of what it means to be dressed up however.

[Shazaam]

KAKA ATTACK!!!!

http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/na/arch...___193326c.jpg



Sorry. I just had to post that.

[Ezra]

do you feel like they make sense to you or that those are how you deal with information and decisions?

Absolutely. Descriptions mean jack shit when you understand where your actions are coming from.

The only reason I ask this is because I feel this way with my IM elements, but because us gammas are known as the "pragmatists" it could just be that those IM elements make sense in a counterintuitive, common sense kinda way.

That's a stupid label. Pragmatists is the name of the club of STs. Also, ILIs are hardly pragmatic people. No, Gammas are a mix of Researchers and Socials.

What do you guys think? It would be good to know if this helps to identify type for future tests, interviews, etc. for determing others' types.

IM elements are the best way of determining types. I don't know the difference between IM elements and functions really, except that functions come in twos, and IM elements are just explanations of each function e.g. a person is a composition of two functions, not two IM elements. I don't know why.

[Jarno]

IM elements are the best way of determining types. I don't know the difference between IM elements and functions really, except that functions come in twos, and IM elements are just explanations of each function e.g. a person is a composition of two functions, not two IM elements. I don't know why.

Information Elements are parts of reality. (e.g. Se, Ni etc)

Functions are the names of the positions of the Information Elements in model A. (e.g. leading function, creative function etc.)

[liveandletlive]

How would a typical ILI or LII idea of dressing up be any different from that?

read mine. i don't know how much it actually differs from your view of what it means to be dressed up however.

A lot of the LIIs dudes i no dress somewhat preppy, but not really going for the preppy look, more that it's traditional, and neat... sounds like they would be ESE's dual right? One of my ILIs is so random in his clothing- it's just like whatever he picked up off the floor... but he really likes his t-shirt that says SLACKER right across the chest haha...The ILIs i no are all so different in their own style; another one of my good ILI friends is actually going to FIT. Of course you guys don't like to dress up... ure NT for god's sake- u let us SFs worry about that! So think of it this way in terms of style, clothes, appearance... how would an ESFj dress their LII significant other vs. how an ESFp would dress their ILI significant other? i'll let u guys answer, then i'll go

[drd252]

How would a typical ILI or LII idea of dressing up be any different from that?

read mine. i don't know how much it actually differs from your view of what it means to be dressed up however.

A lot of the LIIs dudes i no dress somewhat preppy, but not really going for the preppy look, more that it's traditional, and neat... sounds like they would be ESE's dual right? One of my ILIs is so random in his clothing- it's just like whatever he picked up off the floor... but he really likes his t-shirt that says SLACKER right across the chest haha...The ILIs i no are all so different in their own style; another one of my good ILI friends is actually going to FIT. Of course you guys don't like to dress up... ure NT for god's sake- u let us SFs worry about that! So think of it this way in terms of style, clothes, appearance... how would an ESFj dress their LII significant other vs. how an ESFp would dress their ILI significant other? i'll let u guys answer, then i'll go

I don't think I'd "let" anyone dress me, especially an ESFp. An ESFp would probably want me to wear more colors and be "flashy" with accessories like a watch, or at least be less uniform. I only wear black or gray Dickie's, black socks, and most of my shirts are black (or black and gray, most button-down); I have one plaid blue shirt, two black t-shirts, and one red t-shirt. I used to wear ties daily (thin, vintage ties), but I didn't consider it dressing up (although everyone else did).

That being said, I agree that ESFj/INTj couples would dress more professionally/preppy/businesslike. While ESFp/INTp couples would dress more eccentrically/oddly yet still maintain a sense of sophistication and sharpness.

[aestrivex]

thanks for posting, drd. somehow you got off of my ignore list. i hate it when that happens, and i'm glad i caught it before i had to read something truly stupid.

[Ezra]

IM elements are the best way of determining types. I don't know the difference between IM elements and functions really, except that functions come in twos, and IM elements are just explanations of each function e.g. a person is a composition of two functions, not two IM elements. I don't know why.

Information Elements are parts of reality. (e.g. Se, Ni etc)

Functions are the names of the positions of the Information Elements in model A. (e.g. leading function, creative function etc.)

Cheers for clearing that up mate.

[Exodus]

Seriously, I don't think wearing uncomfortable shoes because they look good is a good test of being Se-valuing.

First of all, it's more of a male/female thing, related mainly to high heels. I don't think Se guys would wear uncomfortable shoes because of looks.

Secondly, if there is a type-related aspect to it, it's probably more being Se as opposed to being Se-valuing. I just don't think someone focused on Ni wants to be distracted by uncomfortable clothes that might make him more aware of his surroundings.

True, it is vastly more applicable to Se-leading types.