Debate between Beta and Delta

[Animal]

If I'm any other type but INFp, I'm ISFp, so I guess it could very well be Si-related.

But to explain what I meant by the Lao Tzu quote (wtf? since when does Taoism become reason to get all huffy?): I did not mean Beta's do not know what they are talking about and thus should not speak (at least not any more so than any other quadra). I just meant that this is where I think Ne- and Te-valuing types are coming from when they "backtrack" or when they (to all appearances) refuse to take sides. I've been in discussions with ISTjs countless times about topics and they just don't know when to fucking give it up. Which is admirable but also irritating.

Of course, by all means, HAVE the balls to stick by your convictions if you really feel you're right. More power to you. God knows it's not easy getting people to exercise sanity. But it takes just as much strength to know when to have the humility to concede a point.

And as for "going against the group I myself should fit into"... what the Hell? Where the fuck did you get the idea that kow-towing to group-mentality was what Fe was about? That's a stereotype and misconception about Beta, and congrats, you just bought into it. Since when do you get to speak for all of Beta quadra as a "group" anyway? Dissenting opinions are allowed in Beta, as they are within any other quadra. I've got no problem sticking it to my ESTp roomate or giving my ENFj friend a piece of my mind when they deserve it.

And for the record: "relating to" is not synonymous with "agreeing with." Most of us don't agree with our identicals a lot of the time, but we understand where they are coming from.

These defensive, reactionary politics do none of us good. It only fuels the already existing stereotypes... and the very fucking same misunderstandingss that Socionics was CREATED to AVOID.

[Animal]

And honestly, I don't get why people get so upset about the anti-Beta atmosphere on this forum. I think it's perfectly understandible. Take a walk outside and look around. We fucking OWN the world. ENFjs, INFps, ISTjs, ESTps - these people are musicians, atheletes, religious and political leaders, artists, poets, journalists, actors, and a good many archtypal figures in literature and on TV/movies. We're nowhere close to being "villified" by most people - actually quite the opposite. I think most people would have pretty positive things to say about most of the Beta's that they know. It's just that people come here and this may well be one of the few venues they feel comfortable airing out their dirty laundry.

[Blaze]

The reason we can turn it off and on like that is because, well, we get angry, then in 5 minutes it just passes... I can't really explain it. Trust me when I say that when it seems like we've let it go too easily, it is because we can let go very easily! It's not a ploy

That's . When I get upset or angry, my husband says, " ." Except he spells it, "Relax. It isn't a big deal." He lets it go, and he helps me let it go. No fighting! Such bliss!!

this sounds like EP-IP interaction in general. infp man and i do the same thing.

[Blaze]

Although I think this thread is very conflict oriented, I think the main issue is totally correct. I keep seeing delta NFs back down from discussions and quietly frown at my opinions. It annoys me sometimes. And they pick safe topics, which seem a bit like a waste of time - noting is really said there. Beta is a force of change and being proud of voicing your opinion!

it's the same old Fe/Ti vs Fi/Te stuff.

I think it's far more complicated than that (do you think an SEE is going to back down like that?).

why exactly? i see this as being pretty straightforward.

[UDP]

There are people like Bono, who see rock and roll as a way to change the world for the better. That's great. I was just listening to PRIDE (In the name of love) again.

And,

These defensive, reactionary politics do none of us good. It only fuels the already existing stereotypes... and the very fucking same misunderstandingss that Socionics was CREATED to AVOID.

......my point is not that betas are terrible, no. You can find negative examples of deltas as well. But when you say things like this,

So really, people can be so full of shit, sometimes.
I say this mostly because your kind of talk profanes socionics - you are using normative terms on something that is purely positive (the economics use of those terms).

[force my hand]

I can understand the conflict that has been constructed here between ENFj and ENFp, most likely because I identify with Delta over Beta. If you're operating on a Ti/Fe sort of deal, you know the truth and you want everyone else to know it. On the other hand, if it's Te/Fi that rules you, you know the truth and find it a waste of time to explain it to someone who should already know better.

:wink:

[Expat]

Isn't it rather the case that Betas want to be respected (or even adored) by the group, so they are quick to perceive anything less than a "we all think Betas are the greatest!" atmosphere as being "anti-Beta"?

EDIT: agreeing with what Baby said, "respected by the group" is not the same as "always agreeing with the group".

[Expat]

And for the record: "relating to" is not synonymous with "agreeing with." Most of us don't agree with our identicals a lot of the time, but we understand where they are coming from.

Excellent point.

And honestly, I don't get why people get so upset about the anti-Beta atmosphere on this forum. I think it's perfectly understandible. Take a walk outside and look around. We fucking OWN the world. ENFjs, INFps, ISTjs, ESTps - these people are musicians, atheletes, religious and political leaders, artists, poets, journalists, actors, and a good many archtypal figures in literature and on TV/movies.

You don't necessarily "own" the world, but you think you should, and that's what's annoying

We're nowhere close to being "villified" by most people - actually quite the opposite. I think most people would have pretty positive things to say about most of the Beta's that they know. It's just that people come here and this may well be one of the few venues they feel comfortable airing out their dirty laundry.

It's far more complicated than that.

[Kristiina]

If I'm any other type but INFp, I'm ISFp, so I guess it could very well be Si-related.

But to explain what I meant by the Lao Tzu quote (wtf? since when does Taoism become reason to get all huffy?): I did not mean Beta's do not know what they are talking about and thus should not speak (at least not any more so than any other quadra). I just meant that this is where I think Ne- and Te-valuing types are coming from when they "backtrack" or when they (to all appearances) refuse to take sides. I've been in discussions with ISTjs countless times about topics and they just don't know when to fucking give it up. Which is admirable but also irritating.

You did take the other side in this discussion (anti-beta), but it's totally bullshit for you to do it by slightly nudging the discussion in their favor by adding some stupid quote that you didn't even elaborate on. If you have something to say, then say it, don't quote some old dude and then act all defencive when someone actually notices it. I didn't mean you shouldn't say anything aganst beta, but I do hate the way you nudged the discussion in stead of really saying what you think.

Did you really honestly think that when you post a quote like that, people are going to think "oh, he must have meant it from the Te/Ne POV." Or that anyone would understand it the same way as you did? And anyway, if you meant that this explains the Ne/Te valuing point of view, then it DOES mean that it represents how Betas don't even know what they are talking about, because that's the only way it would make sense in this thread. And you just did the EXACT ENFp thing that was described in the first post. You say something, then it gets argues with and you say: oh I didn't really mean it that way, I just meant that "this is where I think Ne- and Te-valuing types are coming from /--/ when they refuse to take sides.". WTF! Why do you put those words in THEIR mouths now?! Why did you retreat from what YOU said?

And BTW, I very rarely understand where you're coming from.

[Animal]

Props to JTDW for spotting it before I did, lol.

You did take the other side in this discussion (anti-beta), but it's totally bullshit for you to do it by slightly nudging the discussion in their favor by adding some stupid quote that you didn't even elaborate on. If you have something to say, then say it, don't quote some old dude and then act all defencive when someone actually notices it. I didn't mean you shouldn't say anything aganst beta, but I do hate the way you nudged the discussion in stead of really saying what you think.

Did you really honestly think that when you post a quote like that, people are going to think "oh, he must have meant it from the Te/Ne POV." Or that anyone would understand it the same way as you did? And anyway, if you meant that this explains the Ne/Te valuing point of view, then it DOES mean that it represents how Betas don't even know what they are talking about, because that's the only way it would make sense in this thread. And you just did the EXACT ENFp thing that was described in the first post. You say something, then it gets argues with and you say: oh I didn't really mean it that way, I just meant that "this is where I think Ne- and Te-valuing types are coming from /--/ when they refuse to take sides.". WTF! Why do you put those words in THEIR mouths now?! Why did you retreat from what YOU said?

And BTW, I very rarely understand where you're coming from.

Interestingly enough "Lao Tzu" actually means "Old Dude" in Ancient Chinese.

Anyway, I don't think I took an "anti-Beta" position in the slightest. If "anti-Beta" means being open-minded and having an affinity for cryptic scripture, so be it. But I don't think that's what Beta is about. I didn't "retreat" or "backtrack" - I clarified. Big difference. All I was saying is that there are some topics and subject on which the very approach you're denigrating might be warranted and just voicing an already-formed opinion might work against you, and that even Beta types know this. I was indeed saying what I actually thought, albeit through a quote; and a pretty well-known and recognizable quote for anyone who's delved into Chinese philosophy.

It almost seems like you're getting angry at me just because I disagreed with you. I led (or "nudged" as you put it) the discussion in a direction that you, personally, didn't like. There's nothing inherently anti-Beta in anything I said. If anything, my points were pro-Socion. I don't understand why anyone, with any knowledge of Socionics, would want to view people on such divisive terms. It's insanity. If all you can see is "Delta NFs cave in at the threat of pressure" you've learned jackshit from this theory. Why the fuck are you here if you aren't willing to step outside yourself and LEARN from the theory? Why the fuck are you here if all you're going to do is enact stereotypes and misconceptions that other people have of you?

God knows enough people come to this forum just to bitch and moan and bitch and moan and gripe and bitc and moan some more. There's no reason for me or you or anyone else to compound the problem.

EDIT: Blaze worded it better than I did. (See below.)

I can always understand where you're coming from, Kristiina, but unfortunately I think you've got a lot to learn Socionics-wise... like a LOT of people here. I think your understanding of Socionics is stymied by your inability to step outside the labels that OTHER people place on you. Yes, ****** was an ENFj - and a very notable one. As despicable as he was a human being, he was an extremely methodical and successful strategist who mobilized Post-Weimar Germany beautifully and horrifically. He could read his people like a book. But you need to learn not to take his mention so personally; ****** is exemplary of the power of Fe/Ni, albeit channeled towards an unwholesome direction. ****** does not represent you or any other ENFj, however. Consequently, the complaints and Fe-bashing that people have on this forum are representative only of the negative experiences people have personally had; it's got nothing to do with you or me or any other Fe-type.

[Blaze]

i would think delta NF's would see that argumentation would not lead anywhere and could be unimportant in the larger scheme of things. they're going to be more focused on the relationship...so if they think that coming on too strong about something is going to damage the relationship (infj) or expend too much of their energy for what the relationship means to them (enfp) then they'll back off. so i think this could be the Fi related stuff. in other words, if enfp doesn't invest a lot in a relationship with you, then they won't bother to fight. with infj, they'll accept the relationship for what it is, but will try to improve it, and their perception could be that fighting will not improve it, so they won't take stuff on.

with Ne, anything is possible and there are many different "truths" and sides to things. so arguments can be made to propose or support anything. i guess this is how Ne "spins" stuff. Ne dominants wouldn't see it as spin, since we really can see all these sides or possibilities. Ne just isn't as focused on the golden Se rule of reaching one's objective irregardless of obstacles, since objectives can change on the dime of seeing a new and interesting aspect of something. Ne is kinda like, "it's the trip, man, the best part of the trip, the part i really like". rather than there's where i want to be.

so these two, NeFi, this combination is going to be pretty flexible and not all that willing to mix it up so to speak.

now if you add some Ti instead of Fi a la alpha NT, then you get somebody who's less concerned about relationship and more willing to mix it up in a fight. but we are not as forceful as the beta ST's. just by way of contrast.

[Animal]

And honestly, I don't get why people get so upset about the anti-Beta atmosphere on this forum. I think it's perfectly understandible. Take a walk outside and look around. We fucking OWN the world. ENFjs, INFps, ISTjs, ESTps - these people are musicians, athletes, religious and political leaders, artists, poets, journalists, actors, and a good many archtypal figures in literature and on TV/movies.

You don't necessarily "own" the world, but you think you should, and that's what's annoying

We are what we is. But yes, if the way certain conflicting-types in my life are any indication of how Beta's imposing tendencies make other quadra's feel, I think it's understandable.

[Animal]

You could possibly arrange it like this:

Beta
Alpha = Gamma
Delta

though each would be qualitatively different. I do think it's very largely .

That sounds about right... although in some settings I might switch Alpha with Delta? Seems like ESTjs and ENFps are everywhere in administration/bureaucracy.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[xyz]

Wow. Talk about egos.. :/

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[xyz]

Not you, the fact that Betas really believe they are god's gift to the world.
<ahem>

You could possibly arrange it like this:


Beta
Alpha = Gamma
Delta


though each would be qualitatively different. I do think it's very largely .

That sounds about right... although in some settings I might switch Alpha with Delta? Seems like ESTjs and ENFps are everywhere in administration/bureaucracy.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[xyz]

Most confrontational can still equate to big egos.
Ie, the "I'm right, you need to agree with me because I know i'm right" flow.

[Suomea]

You could possibly arrange it like this:

Beta
Alpha = Gamma
Delta

though each would be qualitatively different. I do think it's very largely :Se:.

??????????????????????

Not sure what this refers to............

[xyz]

Apperently we're all confused

[Creepy-bg]

You could possibly arrange it like this:

Beta
Alpha = Gamma
Delta

though each would be qualitatively different. I do think it's very largely .

??????????????????????

Not sure what this refers to............

it's a chart of which quadras are best. Obviously it goes from left to right with alpha being the best, beta and delta tied at 2nd, and gamma pulling up the rear at 4th

[Blaze]

I'd say alpha is closer to delta than gamma. And it's because of the alpha SFs, and this:

with Ne, anything is possible and there are many different "truths" and sides to things. so arguments can be made to propose or support anything. i guess this is how Ne "spins" stuff. Ne dominants wouldn't see it as spin, since we really can see all these sides or possibilities. Ne just isn't as focused on the golden Se rule of reaching one's objective irregardless of obstacles, since objectives can change on the dime of seeing a new and interesting aspect of something. Ne is kinda like, "it's the trip, man, the best part of the trip, the part i really like". rather than there's where i want to be.

my read on that little hierarchy is that beta likes to be obviously large and in charge (aristocracy) while both alpha and gamma are democratic. delta is also aristocratic, but puts itself in the so-called "one down" position of serving others (humanitarian ideals; servant leadership, etc).

but you are right in that Ne is a value in both quadras...in alpha we like to invent things though. in delta, they're more concerned with people possibilities.

[Blaze]

You could possibly arrange it like this:

Beta
Alpha = Gamma
Delta

though each would be qualitatively different. I do think it's very largely .

??????????????????????

Not sure what this refers to............

it's a chart of which quadras are best. Obviously it goes from left to right with alpha being the best, beta and delta tied at 2nd, and gamma pulling up the rear at 4th

LOL

[Animal]

Now there's nothing wrong with a little ego. Unless, of course, you're wrong.

No I don't think Beta is "God's gift to the Socion" <- that's the sort of politics we're trying to avoid. I just don't think there's quite as much anti-Beta sentiment outside the forum as within it, though. We get a filtered/distorted picture here. The "we own the world" comment might be better put subtly: "We're not really the evil, combative, emotionally manipulative tyrants we're made out to be here. In fact, we're quite successful in the circles we put up a stake in."

[xyz]

Now there's nothing wrong with a little ego. Unless, of course, you're wrong.

Damn straight

[Suomea]

To edit this a little...... "We're not all the evil, combative, emotionally manipulative tyrants we're made out to be here. In fact, some of us are quite successful in the circles we put up a stake in."

As for people liking Betas............ eh, it's really a mixed bag. Some are quite successful.....others, not so much.

[Animal]

You hate me, don't you, Suomea? And to think I gave you the best years of my life and bore you seventeen children. *runs away weeping*

[olduser]

I can see why people get bad vibes from beta. From my experience they do not go out of their way to be socially pleasant, and in groups they can be very unapproachable if the person approaching lacks self-confidence.

[Animal]

I think I'm pretty approachable.. at least not outright intimidating. I've experienced cliquishness, though. I do know how annoying it is to feel like you're on the outside looking in; it's annoying, but once you get past the initial bumps and make contact people usually are open to expanding their "group." Unless, of course, they are asshats. Which is often the case, but not always.

[lefty]

Delta

Betas tend to regard Delta types as noncommittal in their unwillingness to support goals decided in a group, lack of drive, and ethical self-righteousness. Rather than back group efforts that require vision and concentration of effort, Delta types prefer to just work on personal projects.

...

Deltas tend to see Beta types as people who "dream big" and always want to turn things into grandiose endeavors, yet can't manage day-to-day affairs effectively. Also, Beta types seem unwilling to consider things from the point of view of others, which gives them a streak of meanness and cruelty.

http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Quadras

HEY LISTEN UP QUICK
YOU'RE A RETARD

The gammas are the ones who are lead by the feildmarshal (obviously a war-like quadrant). And Deltas are the ones that dangerously softline on issues and skip over valid analysis of them, because its too complex for them. To imply that examples of Betas are Mao, George W. Bush, or ****** is fucking absurd! Get out of my topic!

BUSH IS AN EXAMPLE OF an LSE, not a BETA!!

DEAL WITH PEOPLE HAVING OTHER OPINIONS THAN YOUR OWN - THIS IS THE REAL WORLD.
****** IS TYPED AS an EIE LAST I HEARD, and ON THE FORUM PEOPLE AGREED MAO WAS BETA ST - SO SUCK ON THAT.


[/betaspeak]


I swear, talking to betas sometimes is like talking to dogs. It does not matter what you say at all, just the tone of your voice.
You didn't even read what I wrote, which is not surprising, because it doesn't make you look good.

......my point is not that betas are terrible, no. You can find negative examples of deltas as well. But when you say things like this,

So really, people can be so full of shit, sometimes.
I say this mostly because your kind of talk profanes socionics - you are using normative terms on something that is purely positive (the economics use of those terms).

No, you see, I dont like you and I dont give a flying fuck about the contents of your post, because i already could tell you're a fucking jerk. And you are. So stick it.

[lefty]

Although I think this thread is very conflict oriented, I think the main issue is totally correct. I keep seeing delta NFs back down from discussions and quietly frown at my opinions. It annoys me sometimes. And they pick safe topics, which seem a bit like a waste of time - noting is really said there. Beta is a force of change and being proud of voicing your opinion!

In that case, I officially declare myself Beta.

Generally it's Ne. It is frustrating when people just keep pounding on with their opinion and refuse to consider alternatives or real life application. That would be
the conflict. It has nothing to do with not wanting change.

I think you want to deconstruct ideas so that the least amount of effort has to be applied to solutions. Delas are a bunch of self righteous, suffocating, space cadets that are lacking in terms of ethics and actions. A enfp delta will make sure you're kissing people's asses so they dont have to focus on their own work or negative attributes, istps are cave men and women, infjs are flakey, and estjs are pathological manipulators. i think, personally, delta has outlived its usefullness and that we're obviously coming into a time, with environmental concerns, that is the time of betas.

[Kim]

i think, personally, delta has outlived its usefullness and that we're obviously coming into a time, with environmental concerns, that is the time of betas.

Well, good luck battling that out with tcaud.

[Creepy-bg]

i think, personally, delta has outlived its usefullness and that we're obviously coming into a time, with environmental concerns, that is the time of betas.

Well, good luck battling that out with tcaud.

[Bardia]

I can see why people get bad vibes from beta. From my experience they do not go out of their way to be socially pleasant, and in groups they can be very unapproachable if the person approaching lacks self-confidence.

The funny thing is, even though I am a betan, I often experienced being left out, so to speak, because of this exact behavior when other betas form a group. I love beta because I am not constantly being given advice or demeaned because of what I am, but on the other hand, betas sometimes piss me off because they form their little cliques that I am on the far fringed at best because I don't see why the only times they (not just beta, but in most of my cases) will truly acknowledge my existence is if I take the initiative every damn time. Screw them, I say.

But all in all, I think people are putting a little too much emphasis on quadra as to the percieved high and mighty mindset that betas are suppossed to initially have. Maybe I misread, but I really cannot relate.

People are people, the rest (quadra, whatever) is subjective.

I despise the clique aspect of beta and having to initiate the friendship all the times (I have had to stop being friends with one ISTj because it seemed one sided and not even like a friendship). That and their desire to be your superior all the time. Hahaha this doesnt seemed biased at all does it . It's just my own experiences.

EDIT: I am not trying to bash beta; I am just stating my opinion of experience with some betas. I have had problems with Gammas and Deltas too (surprisingly not alpha, at least not yet). With this said, I am not forming a group or taking sides in this apparent Beta v Gamma/Delta war.

[olduser]

heh, my work relationships with beta are really seamless. I can be sort of authoritative naturally, i've noticed at work that people always track what has been done and inform me, and whenever i approach someone they start telling me what work they've done and waht's left to be completed because I usually will not rest until everything is done. Things at work are always smooth when i am around.

[ScarlettLux]

So heath, you've accepted your Betazoid qualities?

[lefty]

i think, personally, delta has outlived its usefullness and that we're obviously coming into a time, with environmental concerns, that is the time of betas.

Well, good luck battling that out with tcaud.

good luck to your children, if you have any, battling out the future with people who try to pretend problems don't exist.

[Megan]

And honestly, I don't get why people get so upset about the anti-Beta atmosphere on this forum. I think it's perfectly understandible. Take a walk outside and look around. We fucking OWN the world. ENFjs, INFps, ISTjs, ESTps - these people are musicians, atheletes, religious and political leaders, artists, poets, journalists, actors, and a good many archtypal figures in literature and on TV/movies. We're nowhere close to being "villified" by most people - actually quite the opposite. I think most people would have pretty positive things to say about most of the Beta's that they know. It's just that people come here and this may well be one of the few venues they feel comfortable airing out their dirty laundry.

Baby, I think both you and Kriistina have quite valid and interesting points. However, I do not think that betas own the world...poets especially are not that revered these days . It is probably more the gamma/delta guys in the world's financial centers that "own" the world and are largely in control of the media, entertainment businesses etc which betas take part in. Even if betas did own the world that would probably not give a good enough reason for the way some people here continue to spread half lies, projections and what not on beta. I think Kriistina just wants the forum to reflect a more realistic (not necessarily purely positive)understanding of beta and a better understanding of what betas actually value rather than what non betas think they value. Like the group behavior thing, people might see some rather closed distrustful beta groups in real life and do not really comprehend the rationale behind the formation of these groups and just reach rather crude conclusions about them.


IMO, betas here are not in a cohesive group like some of the people from quadras who seem rather bonded more together. If one should say for example that gammas do not care about people outside their own families/circles and have no problems exploiting people who they are not close or bonded to through things like slavery and child labor for economic gain and maximization of profits or that they are greedy, vengeful and lacking global empathy, most likely a little group of gammas (usually the same group of people it often seems) would quickly emerge to declare the opinion wrong or even just to clarify their rationale for the behavior it they think a part of the complaint is justified. The betas here "fight back" unsupported individually or alone rather than together most times. I do not know if that is good or bad it seems courageous and probably indicates a certain kind of strength but I think it probably makes the whole "fight back" thing if that is what most betas are interested in doing rather less effective.

[lefty]

.

IMO, betas here are not in a cohesive group like some of the people from quadras who seem rather bonded more together. .... I do not know if that is good or bad it seems courageous and probably indicates a certain kind of strength but I think it probably makes the whole "fight back" thing if that is what most betas are interested in doing rather less effective.[/quote]

yeah we're not cheerleaders or gurus...we get shit done and the time of betas will slap everyone in the face when the environmental imperative, which all betas have anticipated, comes to the forefront.