How does Extraverted Intuition (polr) manifest in an LSI/ISTj?

[ConcreteButterfly]

Ne polr >
- very difficult to see a situation from another person's perspective and to understand "hidden content" (influences from someone's background, psychological factors, even cultural ones), inability to grasp the context surrounding a current situation (either as distinct stages in a development or exactly as one event led to another, cause and effect chain in its very process, which is closer to Ni); hard to read a person in all their essence and potential (which Delta NFs are quite good at), judges people mainly by what's very explicit or by body language and confidence levels

- the future is something they sense they don't have control over - it will just unfold; they master the present, but they cannot easily tell where stuff is coming from and where it's gonna go and what should be done in order to make sure stuff goes the right way; bad at estimating "long-term potential" in relationships or other endeavors, more tactical than strategic, they're masters at pushing for fast success, not so much maneuvering for some potential progress you see over one year ahead. They may not understand why you're taking on a new kind of work when apparently you haven't been making a shitload of money in your first 2 months, cannot realize how a resource can be exploited gradually, juts cause you found a good niche and you see how you're gonna build your skills and your client base slowly, but surely.

- can seem selfish in following their interests , since Ne polr means waiting patiently and when you have the opportunity pushing for your own causes, not understanding another's point of view and stuff.

- don't like changes, have their own routines, which is super-fine if it works for them and they don't get bored; however, need external help to change a less-than-ideal state they're in, because they're bad at perceiving latent potential

- hate randomness, expect predictability, are confused by sudden changes and turns of decisions, will strive to stabilize things in a state they can control; if they can't , they'd rather be out of it

This is excellent. How does it differ from Ne suggestive, though? Wouldn't Ne suggestive have the same difficulties predicting the future, changes in routine, reading "hidden content" etc. ? I guess as a suggestive function, you'd be more open to randomness and changes..?

[Amber]

This is excellent. How does it differ from Ne suggestive, though? Wouldn't Ne suggestive have the same difficulties predicting the future, changes in routine, reading "hidden content" etc. ? I guess as a suggestive function, you'd be more open to randomness and changes..?

I think people are prone to have some difficulties with both their suggestive and polr. But, while they may not be able to provide to their environment / act on the suggestive by themselves (at least not as much as an Ego type would), they are very aware of that type of info. They don't ignore it, but rather they seek to understand stuff that comes via those functions. They enjoy discussions on related topics and get interested and involved when someone appears to know more about it (even on a practical level) than them. That's why theoretically people are easy to convince / manipulate via their Super-Id block ... for good or bad.

The bottom line in the example you asked about is that you're dealing with a Rational/Irrational dichotomy at the same time. So definitely a Ne-seeking is more open to randomness because as an irrational type they're not big fans of structure and plans, but prefer to take things as they come. SEI and SLI like stuff that could make them see things from new perspectives, discover unexpected sides of an issue, juggling ideas for the hell of it, and brainstorming. LSI as a rational type doesn't welcome such things, they want to avoid the unexpected and to bend reality to their beliefs and their will as much as they can. They are loyal to their patterns and routines - even more than ESI, because those "rules" have to make perfect sense to them, it's not only a matter of what feels right or of being honest to yourself.

[Amber]

...I like randomness.

These Ne PoLr descriptions, man.

U'r not LSI. And you seem to use a shitload of Se with little conceptualized Fi and almost no Ni. Besides, you probably have a 7 wing, I've never caught sight of any interest in knowledge from you.

[blackburry]

U'r not LSI. And you seem to use a shitload of Se with little conceptualized Fi and almost no Ni. Besides, you probably have a 7 wing, I've never caught sight of any interest in knowledge from you.

Sup cray

[Amber]

Sup cray

you think and speak like a scientist, E5 for sure. I guess it was a quote from Robert Rogers.

[aisa]

I haven't read through the whole thread, but when I think of my LSI friend one thing that stands out is how fixed she becomes on one thing and can't see alternatives - she actually said she has to decide to do and focus on one thing, otherwise she feels kind of lost and doesn't know what to do. To quote her: "I know I have to do this first, maybe next that. I know I should do both simultaneously, but I can't do a bit of this and a bit of that." (even when situation calls for it) Seems like sth related to her Ne-PoLR.

[Amber]

I haven't read through the whole thread, but when I think of my LSI friend one thing that stands out is how fixed she becomes on one thing and can't see alternatives - she actually said she has to decide to do and focus on one thing, otherwise she feels kind of lost and doesn't know what to do. To quote her: "I know I have to do this first, maybe next that. I know I should do both simultaneously, but I can't do a bit of this and a bit of that." (even when situation calls for it) Seems like sth related to her Ne-PoLR.

I recognize this. I didn't blame it on the polr, I thought it's Ti "priorities tunnel vision" (logically established ones, immediate objective demands received via Se). I've seen LSI simply lose sight of other things while in a different country and absorbing the new setting and work they had to get involved in. Other tasks or problems (although important) were just left on hold and just placed into the folder "I'll think or decide about that later". I for one would have focused not only on the present, but also prepared stuff for the future. But well ... this sometimes makes me feel like I can get stuck between a rock and a hard place, because it can happen that I pay too much attention to something I want to achieve in several months and this can make me lose track of other details that should be dealt with today.

[aisa]

I recognize this. I didn't blame it on the polr, I thought it's Ti "priorities tunnel vision" (logically established ones, immediate objective demands received via Se). I've seen LSI simply lose sight of other things while in a different country and absorbing the new setting and work they had to get involved in. Other tasks or problems (although important) were just left on hold and just placed into the folder "I'll think or decide about that later". I for one would have focused not only on the present, but also prepared stuff for the future. But well ... this sometimes makes me feel like I can get stuck between a rock and a hard place, because it can happen that I pay too much attention to something I want to achieve in several months and this can make me lose track of other details that should be dealt with today.

hmm... I associated it with Ne-PoLR, because my ESI dad made a very similar complaint recently. They share Se (and it "blocks" Ne if I recall correctly) so basically Ne-PoLR would be a "consequence" of Se-creative?
The way it was phrased was in both cases a complaint made by them that they wish they could juggle multiple options, but they "have to" choose one in order to act.
My ESI dad is recently in the process of "learning" to juggle at least a bit cause he recognises that it hinders his performance if he fails to do so (leaves him without a "back-up" plan or focusing on one thing that doesn't have a guaranteed outcome when he could (and logically should) focus on trying a few things simultaneously and then seeing which one "works" applying his focus to this one thing.
My LSI friend is in a situation when she took up a new endeavour and as it is a "start-up" the situation calls for a bit of juggling and doing a few things simultaneously in order to shorten the first most difficult period. She recognises this and complained that she wishes she could work like this, but she can't act on multiple things, she has an inherent need to do one thing, otherwise she just gets stuck and won't do anything.

Those two situations seem quite similar in two different people who share half of their functions and the Ne-PoLR.
I could blame it on Ti in LSI, but can't blame it on Ti in ESI, that's why my thoughts sail towards their PoLR. What do you think?

[Amber]

hmm... I associated it with Ne-PoLR, because my ESI dad made a very similar complaint recently. They share Se (and it "blocks" Ne if I recall correctly) so basically Ne-PoLR would be a "consequence" of Se-creative?
The way it was phrased was in both cases a complaint made by them that they wish they could juggle multiple options, but they "have to" choose one in order to act.
My ESI dad is recently in the process of "learning" to juggle at least a bit cause he recognises that it hinders his performance if he fails to do so (leaves him without a "back-up" plan or focusing on one thing that doesn't have a guaranteed outcome when he could (and logically should) focus on trying a few things simultaneously and then seeing which one "works" applying his focus to this one thing.
My LSI friend is in a situation when she took up a new endeavour and as it is a "start-up" the situation calls for a bit of juggling and doing a few things simultaneously in order to shorten the first most difficult period. She recognises this and complained that she wishes she could work like this, but she can't act on multiple things, she has an inherent need to do one thing, otherwise she just gets stuck and won't do anything.

Those two situations seem quite similar in two different people who share half of their functions and the Ne-PoLR.
I could blame it on Ti in LSI, but can't blame it on Ti in ESI, that's why my thoughts sail towards their PoLR. What do you think?

Maybe it's a mixed influence of the polr and Ti prioritizing. The ESIs I know worry a bit more about the future (sometimes without enough grounds) ... probably because they estimate situations in a more subjective way.

[RedMarquee]

ILE here, I work with an LSI. He despises me, so I'll run down how this PoLR looks to me.

Coworker likes to set up little systems, he has all these rules, and structures and algorithms to do things at our job. Set up all the materials, then start processing. I of course, am very in the moment, my methodology is that unless it's more efficient, grab the materials while doing the processing as need be. He will attempt to get me to set up the materials for him, I'm guessing this is . I don't like his methods, I think they are narrow minded, not robust enough for all possible situations, and strict routines cause me boredom. So of course I don't do it, and wing it as I go, and that further infuriates him. As much of my communication is , I can't talk to this person about my day, he can't follow the conversations because I jump to and fro very fast. He often gets stuck up in unimportant/small details when I'm trying to describe the whole story. From my view when he describes stuff it is amazingly boring, and one dimensional I truthfully feel that this individual isn't prepared for the chaos that is life. If me not setting up a rack correctly is sending this guy into panic attacks, how the hell is he going to handle major changes caused by the course of life. How can he handle getting fired? Or a change of management? This is just work. How can he handle someone he loves moving away? Or unexpected bills? To me LSI and ESI for that matter, are much to rigid and at the same time, not robust enough to handle the very thing that makes life vibrant and amazing for me, change.

You guys are robots to me.

[lemontrees]

Lolol.

So I saw that @RedMarquee had responded to this thread, and when I clicked on it my first thought was "hmmm do you work with one or something? "

Anyway, I don't think they are robots at all, although I can understand the frustration of being pushed away during conversation! LSI's I've known have been witty, brilliant, and kind of subversively humorous and wonderful. And they have this kind of slightly rebellious nature to them while also having this passion for life.

I do think that the Ne PoLR can show up (for me) in having a very set opinion on something via Ti and Se and sort of just... ignoring the framework of how that opinion could be different in more open circumstances... it's like they decide to stick to one facet of something rather than make it open-ended. But I can see how this could be very helpful when trying to push specific visions to completion, which makes sense given that LSI's I have known have been deeply-feeling sort of people, ultimately. Plus they are sooo competent, I don't see how they would be unable to deal with life lol.

[FDG]

How can he handle getting fired? Or a change of management? This is just work. How can he handle someone he loves moving away? Or unexpected bills?

you'd be surprised - they deal with it on a case by case basis, looking exactly at what happens in that moment without preparing in advance.

[lemontrees]

How can he handle getting fired? Or a change of management? This is just work. How can he handle someone he loves moving away? Or unexpected bills? .

and honestly, I think any fairly well-balanced human should be able to deal with these things. no one function is the be-all end-all- you don't need Ne to get through life.

[The Reality Denialist]

In general the reasons behind similar actions may vary greatly.
For example of eating same kinds of foods. You may try to predict and minimize negative sensations. As a kid after being very open to various foods but later I became very scared of certain foods which had negative impact on me. So let's categorize them in advance. Suggestive need for comfort.
Not finishing college. You may have very bad people skills and therefore very low career prospects. You may not give lots of importance for personal success over some other things. I tend to repel against that kind of stuff. Seems kind of repulsive to go after that. It is like self destructive process, but meh.

[Dionysius]

I've never thought about it. You're right.

In fact I'm between LSI and ILE. This conservative behavior against changes in sensations and comfort is probably related to Suggestive Si. "Being afraid of getting out of my comfort zone". This quote might have to do with Si. My girlfriend, my bestfriend, another friend and even my mother - I showed the descriptions for her (lol) - type me as ILE-Ti, while another friend types me as ILE-Ne. Whatever subtype I may be, I think your claim makes complete sense. I'm really an ILE afraid of changes due to Si. Maybe that's why LIEs (ENTjs) are considered the most dynamic types, open to changes, because they have really strong uncounscious Ne, and a very weak and unvalued Si, so they don't care about comfort zone.

About the college thing, it's not that I have bad people skills, I just don't have interest in people or in building a career, being slave to someone. I work in the trade market, very individualistic and with good returns. I don't need anyone to approve my tasks, only myself.

ILE-Ti is a type that tends towards the LSI, because of Ne-Fe weakened and Ti-Se boosted, so maybe that's why I look like an LSI but I'm not. (I have been typed in the internet as Beta ST)

[Muddy]

My brother is LSI and to me his Ne polr seems to manifest as "living in box". He almost never generates ideas for new activities and it is always up to me or my family to convince him to do something he isn't familiar with. Without someone else to make plans (Ni creative) he will literally just stay home and never do anything else. Another manifestation of Ne polr I observe in him is his stinginess with money which stems from his fear of being unable to make unexpected payments. Lastly in regards to his Ne polr is how I feel I must always act in a way that he is familiar with or else he will get mad and criticize me for "acting strange". It should be noted that he likes goofing around sometimes and acting silly (Fe seeking), but sudden deviation in someone's character annoys him and makes him paranoid. In such situations he will use his Se creative and try to force them to settle down.

[Aylen]

My brother is LSI and to me his Ne polr seems to manifest as "living in box". He almost never generates ideas for new activities and it is always up to me or my family to convince him to do something he isn't familiar with. Without someone else to make plans (Ni creative) he will literally just stay home and never do anything else. Another manifestation of Ne polr I observe in him is his stinginess with money which stems from his fear of being unable to make unexpected payments. Lastly in regards to his Ne polr is how I feel I must always act in a way that he is familiar with or else he will get mad and criticize me for "acting strange". It should be noted that he likes goofing around sometimes and acting silly (Fe seeking), but sudden deviation in someone's character annoys him and makes him paranoid.

I think of my LSI mom as a miser. I have had to leave extra tips when we went out to restaurants and she would get annoyed about it. She gets estimates for work to be done and she looks at the person with this scowl that seems to encourage them to lower their price. I think they just know she won't budge on what she has in mind. It has worked for her. She has no problem telling someone, "no" straight up and not even haggling over it. She also had a thing for paying all of a bill at once instead of payment plans. If she can't afford it she won't buy it.

I have had to smooth over issues she has had with people in the service industry and contractors many times. I am sure some would have walked out on the job if I hadn't. She is very rigid and will make someone do everything they said they would even if something changes and it is close to impossible for the contract to be completed. I wish I could be more like that sometimes but I have also had to gently and calmly explain to her why it was not possible to do what they said. If I do that she can bend a little but still doesn't like it.

[Sol]

suspiciously

[Beautiful sky]

I'll give you an example.

I did some bookkeeping work for my brother in law and he tells my sister. "yeah, the computer does the calculations for her" as in I'm not capable of doing simple math (?). I took this offensively because he considers my math (American math) to be somehow substandard to his math (Russian system). We both have math training so I don't know why he has to feel like I'm not good enough. It hurt my feelings but I'm not a joking type. I just went to the kitchen and quietly reflected. I used my that brings me understanding and compassion I justifies what he said as him not considering my feelings (devaluing Fi), asserting his superiority over me (Beta Se/Ti), him not finding that American math could be just as good, and other things I am using Ne. Preserve our good relations, leave it alone Fi. Ne is the object that allows me to see past the object and understand human essence. Thus I'm not like him, inconsiderate, meant to assert hierarchy and dominance. I felt bad for his short statement without much insight. It's common I guess for Se types to look for the weakness in others. After having said this the feeling of compassion overcomes him because I'm doing it for FREE and says "I trust her."

Does this help?
@Sol i guess you're right

My brother is LSI and to me his Ne polr seems to manifest as "living in box". He almost never generates ideas for new activities and it is always up to me or my family to convince him to do something he isn't familiar with. Without someone else to make plans (Ni creative) he will literally just stay home and never do anything else. Another manifestation of Ne polr I observe in him is his stinginess with money which stems from his fear of being unable to make unexpected payments. Lastly in regards to his Ne polr is how I feel I must always act in a way that he is familiar with or else he will get mad and criticize me for "acting strange". It should be noted that he likes goofing around sometimes and acting silly (Fe seeking), but sudden deviation in someone's character annoys him and makes him paranoid. In such situations he will use his Se creative and try to force them to settle down.

Yes I get this a lot with my brother in law

[Jeremy8419]

Lack of traditional creativity. Tunnel vision. Failure to recognize or weigh possibilities. Inability and lack of desire to try new concepts, especially when not logically explained. Potentials and possibilities used as base for reverse information flow come from only those already experienced directly. Severe unease in situations of open-ended possibilities without structure. Severe unease at trying to choose from hypothetical possible choices where outcome is not previously known.

[The Reality Denialist]

What bothers me is that every conclusion seems to have some sort of laser focus which can be very off. Ni-HA combined with Ti base and it is based on observable concrete Si data with very little penetration.

This is how I supervise it. This can be manifested further in Se heavy behaviors which makes me bit upset.

[Aylen]

Lolol.

So I saw that @RedMarquee had responded to this thread, and when I clicked on it my first thought was "hmmm do you work with one or something? "

Anyway, I don't think they are robots at all, although I can understand the frustration of being pushed away during conversation! LSI's I've known have been witty, brilliant, and kind of subversively humorous and wonderful. And they have this kind of slightly rebellious nature to them while also having this passion for life.

I do think that the Ne PoLR can show up (for me) in having a very set opinion on something via Ti and Se and sort of just... ignoring the framework of how that opinion could be different in more open circumstances... it's like they decide to stick to one facet of something rather than make it open-ended. But I can see how this could be very helpful when trying to push specific visions to completion, which makes sense given that LSI's I have known have been deeply-feeling sort of people, ultimately. Plus they are sooo competent, I don't see how they would be unable to deal with life lol.

My mom has dealt with life straight on and has been a bit of a go-getter. Ne polr has not been a disability to reaching her goals. She is one of the hardest workers I have ever known. An immigrant who was not afraid of getting her hands dirty to show her family that she was competent and independent enough to take care of my middle sister and me on her own. When she moved to the US they all said she would fail and return home. She didn't. She is a no-nonsense type but able to loosen up and have fun in the right atmosphere. I have to say I admire her more and more as I get older. I took so much for granted growing up. I pushed her to the edge of emotional breakdown with my defiance but somehow we are closer for it now. She is actually very soft in the middle with a hard exterior.

[bolong]

My mom has dealt with life straight on and has been a bit of a go-getter. Ne polr has not been a disability to reaching her goals. She is one of the hardest workers I have ever known. An immigrant who was not afraid of getting her hands dirty to show her family that she was competent and independent enough to take care of my middle sister and me on her own. When she moved to the US they all said she would fail and return home. She didn't. She is a no-nonsense type but able to loosen up and have fun in the right atmosphere. I have to say I admire her more and more as I get older. I took so much for granted growing up. I pushed her to the edge of emotional breakdown with my defiance but somehow we are closer for it now. She is actually very soft in the middle with a hard exterior.

I completely agree with @lemontrees about their wit and rebelliousness, but in particular the subversive humor. They are hilarious.

But I can understand how it would be different with a parent, and also a female.. being LSI lends itself particularly well to being male imo. "miserly" is new to me though, I consider my EIE father as incredibly miserly, whereas my LSI partner is extravagant with money. Again it might come down to being a parent.

Also my partner is a Se subtype, so when he gets into tunnel vision mode I am usually aghast at the amount of resources he throws into achieving his goal (this could be an example of Ne-polr, he doesn't see other ways to accomplish his goal; whereas Ne is all about compensating for the lack of material resources).

[Aylen]

I completely agree with @lemontrees about their wit and rebelliousness, but in particular the subversive humor. They are hilarious.

But I can understand how it would be different with a parent, and also a female.. being LSI lends itself particularly well to being male imo. "miserly" is new to me though, I consider my EIE father as incredibly miserly, whereas my LSI partner is extravagant with money. Again it might come down to being a parent.

Also my partner is a Se subtype, so when he gets into tunnel vision mode I am usually aghast at the amount of resources he throws into achieving his goal (this could be an example of Ne-polr, he doesn't see other ways to accomplish his goal; whereas Ne is all about compensating for the lack of material resources).

Before my mom had kids she spent money extravagantly and was spoiled by my grandfather who had to do it behind my grandmother's back. Then her first husband, my bio-dad, (EIE) had her living way below the standard she was used to (I'm talking dirt floor house, rocks for a yard, according to my American aunt but it is not something my mom talks about) so she jumped at the chance to move our whole family to the US to make a better life for my sister and me. "My bio dad hated it here (for very personal reasons) and moved back. He was sure she could not make it on her own and she would run back to him. Everyone thought she couldn't do it. She proved them all wrong. She never had to work until she came to the US but she was stronger on her own. She worked hard to the surprise of her family and my bio-dad. She never looked back after that choice was made.

[bolong]

Before my mom had kids she spent money extravagantly and was spoiled by my grandfather who had to do it behind my grandmother's back. Then her first husband, my bio-dad, (EIE) had her living way below the standard she was used to (I'm talking dirt floor house, rocks for a yard, according to my American aunt but it is not something my mom talks about) so she jumped at the chance to move our whole family to the US to make a better life for my sister and me. "My bio dad hated it here (for very personal reasons) and moved back. He was sure she could not make it on her own and she would run back to him. Everyone thought she couldn't do it. She proved them all wrong. She never had to work until she came to the US but she was stronger on her own. She worked hard to the surprise of her family and my bio-dad. She never looked back after that choice was made.

I do love about LSIs that they just don't let you down, they don't disappoint the people they love, they do what they say they'll do

And I think it's tough being a foreign EIE male in America, my dad is one and he perceives everything as a blow to his ego

[karas]

[Beautiful sky]

Bump

[Sol]

For weak nonvalued functions is most applied simplifications.
Ne - not evident traits of objects and situations.

The said below should be similar for all 4 Se, including Ps.
Si types are predisposed to same problems. But those are lesser expressed as these types are better controled by external norms for Ne, have higher interest to be good there and higher wish to fit norms there.

Se types easier assign a not evident trait by surface marks. alike "He's bad because <some color of socks>"
The mentioned higher suspicion - is an example of this. Anything unusual inspires in them higher suspicion, as it's new and so harder to interpret it, what is behind and to expect.
Meanwhile they can be blind to real (but not evident) bad traits by same surface reasons: "He's honest man because has a cat"

A variant of behavior for Se types (weak nonvalued Ne and valued Ni) can be superstitions, which should replace by surface traits a complex not evident content. Alike "if you knock a wood, then no problems will be".

An example of a simplification is overgeneralization. If human A1 has a trait (some evident) and does B, then if human A2 has same trait so he does that B too. While the link between A and B can be small or to absent. Add to this higher suspicion and you may get alike: "One human before made a photo here and I'm sure it's FBI agent. I see a smartphone at you, so you are FBI agent".

Problems with weak, especially weak nonvalued, functions arise in case of stress, negative emotions, negative expectation, fatigue - in a state of danger and lack of resources. There Jung types accentuates. The body reduces the quality of work of what is weak and more resources go to strong sides which are more efficient. So simplification issues become more expressed.

Se matches with Fi and Ti.
To get bad suspicions is easier from Fi-Se when they have negative emotions.
From Ti-Se - when they see not fiting to rules, common standards.

[fjoerd]

EIIs seem open-minded on the surface, but are internally judgmental assholes. with LSIs, the reverse is true IME.

Lmao, I can see truth in this. LSIs can look shockingly rigid and rejecting at first, but often times they're actually charmingly unassuming when it comes to matters they haven't made up their mind yet, and are very open to new facts and evidence. If their hopes are up, I can see how they can get disappointed rather quickly when the big visionary intuitor just cannot deliver nor facts nor evidence and later turns out to be wrong too.