Si/Ni/Fi/Ti and Systems

[Gilly]

A life-support machine is a system, but it doesn't particularly classify things.

You're right, a life-support machine does not possess a psyche.

Neither does a system. But both the system and the life-support machine exist.

OMFG

Please review the difference between an information aspect and an information element.

Why don't you explain, Joy, and show us how it's applicable to this situation?

[Joy]

Information elements are mental processes. They are "the psychic modules that perceive, process, and produce corresponding information aspects".

Information aspects are properties of reality that exist independent from psyche. These aspects of reality are, however, defined by the fact that humans perceive and process specific types information from a given situation or thing. (This is why the description of information elements says that they produce corresponding information aspects.)


This gets into the chicken and the egg and the tree that falls in the forest with no one around to hear it, but the simplest way to look at it for the purposes of communicating effectively is that information elements refer to mental processes and information aspects are aspects of reality that are in that moment being discussed/understood separately from mental processes or and independent of a particular human's perspective.

Interestingly, information aspects can also exist independently from other information aspects, but information elements cannot work independently of each other.

I have to go now and therefore cannot explain "how it's applicable to this situation" atm.

[Minde]

Where did that definition come from?

It came from a widget on my dashboard, which in turn is kindly provided by Oxford's American Dictionaries.

In all of these definitions, including Minde's, they're either describing Ti/Fi or they're a static perspective of something dynamic.

"Static perspective" ... As in, my opinion doesn't count?

[inumbra]

Hmm... semantics it is.

The weather on Earth is a dynamic system--all of Earth's processes together as a whole could be called a dynamic system. Dynamic systems are chaotic. If you create a computer simulation of a dynamic system, every time you run it, it will do something different. You can't translate it into a static system--it will not be bound like that.

The classification of lifeforms on Earth is a static system.

I don't care if Ni and Si are called systems, as long as there is a distinction made between what kind of systems we're talking about. If Ni and Si are systems, they are definitely not the same sort of systems that Ti and Fi are. They would be more like the weather example.

Also, if you watch a dynamic system running from the outside... you might think "this is a dynamic system."

But if you are the dynamic system, experiencing it from the inside as it runs. You may just simply think that it "is." You can flow with it, and all you experience of it (by itself) is the flow. The moment you start thinking of what you're experiencing as a system, however, you're using Ti (or maybe Fi).

Ugh. I think this debate boils down to semantics and vantage points.

[Joy]

In all of these definitions, including Minde's, they're either describing Ti/Fi or they're a static perspective of something dynamic.

"Static perspective" ... As in, my opinion doesn't count?

That's not what I was saying at all. Everyone is going to look at situations through the "colored glasses" of their own type (read my first post). I'm not saying that it should work differently.

[MysticSonic]

Classic example of arguing about definitions rather than concepts.

Stupid.

[Joy]

Information elements are mental processes. They are "the psychic modules that perceive, process, and produce corresponding information aspects".

Information aspects are properties of reality that exist independent from psyche. These aspects of reality are, however, defined by the fact that humans perceive and process specific types information from a given situation or thing. (This is why the description of information elements says that they produce corresponding information aspects.)


This gets into the chicken and the egg and the tree that falls in the forest with no one around to hear it, but the simplest way to look at it for the purposes of communicating effectively is that information elements refer to mental processes and information aspects are aspects of reality that are in that moment being discussed/understood separately from mental processes or and independent of a particular human's perspective.

Interestingly, information aspects can also exist independently from other information aspects, but information elements cannot work independently of each other.

I have to go now and therefore cannot explain "how it's applicable to this situation" atm.

Basically, I was talking about my understanding of the information aspects Si and Ti. Other people were arguing based on their understanding of the information elements Si and Ti. It's not possible for clear communication to take place under such circumstances.

For everything and situation that exists, there are 8 different aspects of it, or 8 different ways it could be viewed. Most of what I said in this thread (and most threads in General unless a specific type or function is mentioned) was referencing information aspects. Basically, I'm not talking about something that someone is seeing or thinking. Mentioning that a machine or a mechanic cannot understand Ti or systemize/categorize makes no sense when talking about information aspects because information aspects are free of someone/something perceiving or understanding them. (Not to mention the fact that there's no one who doesn't see/use Ti is some way, shape, or form.)

[Joy]

Classic example of arguing about definitions rather than concepts.

Stupid.

It is impossible to communicate effectively if people are talking about two different things as if they're the same thing.

[MysticSonic]

"It is impossible to communicate effectively if you're talking about two different things as if they're the same thing."

Yeah.

[Subteigh]

Joy, you have this assumption that systems can only ever be static - when someone says that systems can be dynamic, you say that is not what you mean by a system. But, systems can be dynamic.

[Joy]

If you read the definitions of "system", they generally describe a whole made up of interconnected parts. "System" is a noun... A system is a thing. That is why I argue that systems are not Si or Ni (they may use their Si or Ni knowledge with Ti or Fi and other information elements together to build/understand systems though). Si and Ni are not things or states of being.

[Subteigh]

If you read the definitions of "system", they generally describe a whole made up of interconnected parts. "System" is a noun... A system is a thing. That is why I argue that systems are not Si or Ni (they may use their Si or Ni knowledge with Ti or Fi and other information elements together to build/understand systems though). Si and Ni are not things or states of being.

Why is a 'thermodynamic system' a system then? It's a system because it tries to maintain equilibrium amongst its collective whole.

[Joy]

If you read the definitions of "system", they generally describe a whole made up of interconnected parts. "System" is a noun... A system is a thing. That is why I argue that systems are not Si or Ni (they may use their Si or Ni knowledge with Ti or Fi and other information elements together to build/understand systems though). Si and Ni are not things or states of being.

Why is a 'thermodynamic system' a system then? It's a system because it tries to maintain equilibrium amongst its collective whole.

Warmth transferring to cool is not a system. However, a system may be created using the knowledge that this happens (perhaps a better way to explain it would be that it can be understood as a system). It's Ti derived from Si.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_dynamics

This, on the other hand, appears to be Ni and/or Te derived from Ti.

[Subteigh]

Warmth transferring to cool is not a system.

Of course it's a system - if it works as a collective whole, it is a system.

System (from Latin systēma, in turn from Greek σύστημα systēma) is a set of interacting or interdependent entities, real or abstract, forming an integrated whole.

There are natural and man-made (designed) systems. Man-made systems normally have a certain purpose, objectives. They are “designed to work as a coherent entity”. Natural systems may not have an apparent objective.

[Subteigh]

it's not, but it's transferring IN the system.

How is a thermodynamic system not a system? Chemical reactions in the atmosphere would be an example of a system too - there isn't any classification there either, they just react, with environmental factors aiding or hindering reactions.

[Subteigh]

if we have two objects moving towards one another and that are going to hit each other, there is a system because a system is a collage of interacting components basically. the transfer of energy that is going to happen is not actually a system but rather a process that will happen in it. joy said "Warmth transferring to cool is not a system." and she meant the transfer, not the system in which it happens.

Heat counts as an abstract entity. If it wasn't a system, then the Laws of Thermodynamics wouldn't be laws.

[Joy]

if we have two objects moving towards one another and that are going to hit each other, there is a system because a system is a collage of interacting components basically. the transfer of energy that is going to happen is not actually a system but rather a process that will happen in it. joy said "Warmth transferring to cool is not a system." and she meant the transfer, not the system in which it happens.

Heat counts as an abstract entity. If it wasn't a system, then the Laws of Thermodynamics wouldn't be laws.

The Laws of Thermodynamics are the Ti aspect of reality which concern temperature.

[Subteigh]

if we have two objects moving towards one another and that are going to hit each other, there is a system because a system is a collage of interacting components basically. the transfer of energy that is going to happen is not actually a system but rather a process that will happen in it. joy said "Warmth transferring to cool is not a system." and she meant the transfer, not the system in which it happens.

Heat counts as an abstract entity. If it wasn't a system, then the Laws of Thermodynamics wouldn't be laws.

The Laws of Thermodynamics are the Ti aspect of reality which concern temperature.

Thermodynamics always occurs in a system...that's all there is to it, as it t'were.

[Joy]

Warmth transferring to cool is not a system.

Of course it's a system - if it works as a collective whole, it is a system.

System (from Latin systēma, in turn from Greek σύστημα systēma) is a set of interacting or interdependent entities, real or abstract, forming an integrated whole.

There are natural and man-made (designed) systems. Man-made systems normally have a certain purpose, objectives. They are “designed to work as a coherent entity”. Natural systems may not have an apparent objective.

Again, this is a noun.

(btw, heat is readily observable and measurable... I don't think of it as being abstract at all. )

[Joy]

if we have two objects moving towards one another and that are going to hit each other, there is a system because a system is a collage of interacting components basically. the transfer of energy that is going to happen is not actually a system but rather a process that will happen in it. joy said "Warmth transferring to cool is not a system." and she meant the transfer, not the system in which it happens.

Heat counts as an abstract entity. If it wasn't a system, then the Laws of Thermodynamics wouldn't be laws.

The Laws of Thermodynamics are the Ti aspect of reality which concern temperature.

Thermodynamics always occurs in a system...that's all there is to it, as it t'were.

And Ti is present in everything. As is every other aspect of reality.

[Subteigh]

Warmth transferring to cool is not a system.

Of course it's a system - if it works as a collective whole, it is a system.

System (from Latin systēma, in turn from Greek σύστημα systēma) is a set of interacting or interdependent entities, real or abstract, forming an integrated whole.

There are natural and man-made (designed) systems. Man-made systems normally have a certain purpose, objectives. They are “designed to work as a coherent entity”. Natural systems may not have an apparent objective.

Again, this is a noun.

(btw, heat is readily observable and measurable... I don't think of it as being abstract at all. )

Can't you have any number of things in a set?

[Joy]

Sure, but word/concept "set" itself is still a noun. ("Set" is still a noun if it's referring to a set of actions.)

[Joy]

What it appears that you're doing is veiwing reality primarily through the eyes of your first function (as we all do).

[Subteigh]

Sure, but word/concept "set" itself is still a noun. ("Set" is still a noun if it's referring to a set of actions.)

What has being a noun got to do with anything? You can have a set with absolutely nothing in it at all. Thermodynamics is a system because it encompasses a whole set of interacting entities.

[Joy]

Sure, but me feeling cold in a 75 degree room because I'm sitting right next to a cold window is not the whole system. It's something that's happening that can be understood through the system (or if it makes more sense, it's only part of the system).

[Subteigh]

Sure, but me feeling cold in a 75 degree room because I'm sitting right next to a cold window is not the whole system. It's something that's happening that can be understood through the system (or if it makes more sense, it's only part of the system).

cold temperature -> cold person -> put on a jumper -> warmer person -> warmer room -> hot person -> remove jumper

[Joy]

Sure, but me feeling cold in a 75 degree room because I'm sitting right next to a cold window is not the whole system. It's something that's happening that can be understood through the system (or if it makes more sense, it's only part of the system).

cold temperature -> cold person -> put on a jumper -> warmer person -> warmer room -> hot person -> remove jumper

This is static, too.