The nature of Fi

[Ms. Kensington]

I do think that you do need to totally rearrange your thoughts in order to understand the opposing quadra's actions. It's definitely not impossible to do though.

[Gilly]

you alpha's do it allllll the time. espcially gilly. and Fe-manipulators do it. george is actually surprisingly good at that for an ENTp.

gamma does it with their "cold" Fi and Te blasting i guess, judgemental as you say

beta does it but wacking others with their wangs lol

you get my point hopefully....

When do I blast other quadras? I'd like to see. If I do, it's to make up for the way a bunch of people hype up Fi like it's the holy grail of life. Ever wonder why so many people like UDP fake being an Fi type? Because they think it's teh awesome of Socionics! Wooo!

And cut this bullshit out about Fe being so manipulative...christ, like you don't think SEEs send people false signals or manipulate people sometimes? Before Joy came on the scene with her "holier-than-thou" interpretation of Fi, everybody thought that ESFps were the epitome of a player who treats people like trash for sex. No kidding. One time I suggested that an ESE friend of mine cheated on her bf, and one of the first replies was "Are you sure she wasn't ESFp?"

So this is an endless debate. Nobody is right here, because no matter how we "acknowledge" our differences, it's only a two-sided coin, and we can't do things both ways every time.

i dont see how you are coming to this conclusion

It's pretty obvious. There are two sides to the issue, and we can't force everyone to act one way, so it's just going to disintegrate even more, helped by the fact that we're all probably not giving other people favorable interpretations of what they say because, well, it's a forum, isn't it?

you don't just nod people off when they try to fucking communicate with you.

YOU DO WHEN YOU ARE BUSY. AND WHEN YOU SEE THEM EVERYDAY. AND WHEN YOU DONT FEEL LIKE TALKING TO PEOPLE AND ARE IN YOUR OWN HOUSE.

No, you treat them with respect because, well let's hope, you're not a selfish prick, and say "Sorry, I'm busy, can we talk some other time?" instead of dismissing them nonverbally. A nod can be a greeting, I guess, but if someone speaks to you, don't just act like what you're doing is more important than they are. If you like someone, you treat them like an equal, and that's all there is to it. But I guess we already know that Peter doesn't think of anyone as his equal, and nobody's forcing him to do it, so I guess it's ok if he treats people like trash.

[Gilly]

Look at what I actually wrote, particularly the bolded. Besides, how is it NOT type bashing to claim that IxFjs are judgemental and all about etiquette, when it's not even true. Or how is it okay for Gilly to call discojoe an asshole just for being himself and acting in a normal and natural way? It's not like disco was trying to be rude - it was just taken that way.

Because he's naturally an asshole?

Seems like you and Gilly are the ones doing that.

Care to back that up?

[Gilly]

Did you not just read my last post? Falsely portraying your own emotional state is NOT the natural way for an Fe type to behave. Fe "genuineness" is not exaggerating for effect; it's accurately representing your Fe state, no matter what the Fi consequences are.

And yet, you are asking the Fi types to fake the genuineness of their own responses.

I'm asking him to use his voice and treat peope with respect; I don't give a fuck how he feels at the time. If he wants to say "Hello" like a grumpy-ass mother-fucker because he just stepped on a tack, that's just fine by me, but at least SAY something.

Your lack of emotional intelligence does not equate to an implicit lack of shared responsibility with the rest of the world.

lol, can we say social rules? Coming from a Ti? A Ti who likes to say it's supposedly Fi?

I didn't say say social rules were all about Fi. They play a part, obviously, but they aren't "it."

It's really not a "rule;" I don't see anyone ever behaving in any ways that deviates from this. When someone acknowledges you, you reciprocate. It's just the HUMAN thing to do. Nobody's coming with an iron hand to bend you over and fuck you in the ass if you don't, but it would be nice if we could all at least try to communicate, no? I'm not ask him to smile or act nice or be friendly; just SAY SOMETHING. THATS FUCKING IT. NOT THE END OF THE WORLD, NO FAKENESS, NO EFFORT BUT THE FUCKING LIPS AND TONGUE!

[anndelise]

wow look at all this defensiveness. i feel like i'm talking to a wall. maybe you feel like that too. this is useless. one can see how talking about emotions and relationships is inherently controversial, much more controversial than talking about things/logic.

most of this stuff is open to quite a bit of interpretation and each type is going to make slightly different interpretations based on their socionic IM lineup. if we believe in socionics that is. i agree in theory with some of what has been said, but, having said that, it doesn't match my perception. these interactions are driving me to reach a conclusion that although socionics appears to have some face validity, in actual practice, so many different arguments can be made for what information elements mean and for whom and under what conditions, that i think it undermines the validity of the whole theory.

i've made my points i'm not going to re-state them despite people calling in more "Fi" types in order to "win" or gain some kind of perceived advantage. my intention was not to offend anybody personally. you must think my arguments are strong otherwise you would not do this. perhaps other's intentions have not been to offend me but i have found both the process and some of the content here and in other threads offensive.

noone called me in in order to "win"
in fact, i don't even see this thread as about winning nor losing, at all.
I see it as being more about attempts to clear up misunderstandings/misinterpretations.
Admittedly, some people being more willing to try to understand/communicate than others.



Person A says "you did this this and that because of x motivations"
Person B says "I did this and this but not that, and my motivations were...."
Person A says "you're wrong, you're motivations were X,"
Person B says "no, they weren't, perhaps you misunderstood because of Q?"
Person A says "i know your motivations, your intentions, and what was going through your mind better than you do, and nothing you say is going to change my mind! So stop trying to make yourself look different from what i say. Gah, why are people being so defensive?? "

[Khamelion]

good thread

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Gilly]

I don't see where I bashed any functions or "picked apart people's information elements," whatever that means, and I don't think I've ever avoided saying that I'm an asshole when I'm making a point.

Keep trying, though.

[Khamelion]

I don't see where I bashed any functions or "picked apart people's information elements," whatever that means, and I don't think I've ever avoided saying that I'm an asshole when I'm making a point.

Keep trying, though.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Gilly]

What does "picking apart Fi" mean? Again, I never said I don't bash people.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[aka-kitsune]

I think that something goes on in their heads when I start pm/im-ing them and then i get distracted elsewhere or I've said all i wanted to say at the moment or I already know I'm about to move away from the topic and will cut the conversation off. I try to be polite about it, but I think that maybe they still feel hurt(?). I think that sometimes they feel kind of used by me, like they were the closest at hand or the only one on line that i could blurt out whatever was running through my head. To be honest, sometimes that is the case, but most of the time, I only tell them because i feel that they are the only ones that might have a clue as to what I'm feeling/thinking. Sometimes I'm too uncomfy with the subject myself and don't want to continue it. Sometimes I don't think they quite caught on to what i mean or something and will feel disappointed and need to pull away for a moment. (they do similar to the last part too).

With conversations, esp. about things that I deem deep and toothy, I always really want to thoroughly discuss the topic. Hash, grapple, develop the discussion with the other person. In my enthusiasm, I might not be aware that I'm pressing a bit too hard and the other person is none too comfy. The goal is always to feel engaged with the other, to be really experiencing their genuine feelings, thoughts, beliefs. More information for the growing file. And I'm only persistent with people I'm really interested in knowing more about. (I can get really greedy for more information and engagement). I do have a tendency to take any kind of rejection personally, be it not responding to an email, not finishing a thought, or cutting off a convo before I feel satisfied.

And I also think IEI are particularly prone to sensitivity to feeling "just convenient". I want to feel like my contact is wanted, not just tolerated.

One thing I have to say that drives me nuts is when someone will bring up a topic, or start a thought and then cut it off for whatever reason. Makes me crazy. I have a burning need to know whatever is being kept from me!

But ultimately, I believe that recognizing that there seems to be similarities on the surface but there are actually vast differences underneath the surface has helped be more patient and more willing to alter communication attempts/techniques.

Patience. Yeah, despite my tattooing it on myself, I still find it difficult to employ when I really need it. I also don't have enough trust in the other person sometimes. I feel compelled to repeatedly push the button to get a response... it can be a very compulsive behavior.

[redbaron]

Is this an example? My ISFp dad used to play practical jokes on my INFj mom. One of the worst (to her) was when he poured cold water on her in the shower. Just wanted to get a rise out of her but she was really upset and didn't think it was funny at all. She thought that no loving husband would do such a thing to his wife. He thought it was hilarious. But has since realized it was immature.

He still has to hold himself back from doing things kind of like that (not so extreme) out of respect for my mother's sense of what is appropriate or not appropriate.

That's not an example of objective/social appropriateness or not….it's an example of the INFj didn't like having the cold water poured on her in the shower. Surely he knew she wouldn't like it (who would?), yet he did it to her anyways. If he loves her as much as he says he does, why would he deliberately do something to her that he KNOWS she won't like?

I don't think he realized how adamantly she would dislike it. He had never done that to her before. His intent was to surprise her and get her to scream/laugh in a good way, not an angry way. I am pretty sure that in that same situation I would have screamed first in surprise and then laughed. I would not have scolded and moped. But that's just me. And as I said, he learned his lesson.

[Joy]

I would have yelled a lot.



This thread is a good example of ILE/ESI conflict in action.

[anndelise]

One thing I have to say that drives me nuts is when someone will bring up a topic, or start a thought and then cut it off for whatever reason. Makes me crazy. I have a burning need to know whatever is being kept from me!

*attempts to look innocent*
*fails miserably*

I know I've done this not to just infps i know in person, but online and even in this forum as well.
I'll pm/im them to comment about something, they respond back, I'll respond back...but i generally have either run out of things to say about the subject or have expended all the energy i was willing to put into the subject from the beginning, and so my response is kind of peetered out...then they'll respond back, and then normally i wouldn't respond back because then they'd respond back requiring me to respond back, etc etc....never ending.

but i've worked on trying to let them know that at a certain point, I don't expect a response back, and i don't want them to feel pressured to respond back, but my words still try to leave communication open IF they WANT to respond back. but i think what may happen instead is that at that point they think i'm saying "don't respond back"...it being online, I'm never really sure...i mean, part of me WANTS them to respond back to reassure me that they didn't interpret me as saying "STOP writing to me" but then another part of me doesn't want to feel pressured to respond to them again.

It's a work in process. Unfortunately, some of the infps on this board inadvertently wind up being guinnea pigs in my attempts to learn how to help ease communications. (note: i DON'T seek them out for that purpose)

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Gilly]

What does "picking apart Fi" mean? Again, I never said I don't bash people.

Ascribing false and negative qualities to it and then accusing people of having those qualities. The same thing that is sometimes done to Fe (and other elements) when people claim that it has certain qualities they dislike, and it may not even have those qualities. And those in quadras which value that element have a difficult time convincing others of what it's actually like.

Where did I explicitly ascribe negative qualities to Fi? Here, I'll requote some of the ones with real potential to give you a head start:

I'm not expecting anything short of sane behavior; you don't just nod people off when they try to fucking communicate with you.

Maybe that's it, maybe you're just arrogant. Too good to treat people how they treat you and you feel like making up an excuse?

They DO appreciate warmth and familiarity in communication, showing that the other person is putting effort into the relationship instead of just constantly relaying information, and prefer people not to behave like fucking robots.

Good luck.

Now, if I said something that reflects poorly on Fi implicitly, well, what the fuck do you expect? Do you know what type I am?

[anndelise]

I don't think he realized how adamantly she would dislike it. He had never done that to her before. His intent was to surprise her and get her to scream/laugh in a good way, not an angry way. I am pretty sure that in that same situation I would have screamed first in surprise and then laughed. I would not have scolded and moped. But that's just me. And as I said, he learned his lesson.

heh, yeah, i think richard (isfp) has a bit of a prankster in himself as well that he tends to curb around me. he too learned the hard way

the best pranksters i've met have been infp/isfp. i don't like pranks in general, but their's are ...liveable??

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Gilly]

@ Gilly: Blaze's quotes were all an example of ascribing negative qualities to Fi - yours were an example of personally attacking people with Fi rather than Fe values.

Alright, well quit fucking compromising my credibility by lumping me in with Blaze.

[Joy]

[Blaze]

@ Gilly: Blaze's quotes were all an example of ascribing negative qualities to Fi - yours were an example of personally attacking people with Fi rather than Fe values.

Alright, well quit fucking compromising my credibility by lumping me in with Blaze.

fuck you then lol

Fi does have negative qualities. all the im's do. accept and deal.

[Logos]

It seems that every misunderstanding of Fi/Te in this thread is responded by a reciprocal misunderstanding of Fe/Ti.

[Blaze]

What does "picking apart Fi" mean? Again, I never said I don't bash people.

Ascribing false and negative qualities to it and then accusing people of having those qualities. The same thing that is sometimes done to Fe (and other elements) when people claim that it has certain qualities they dislike, and it may not even have those qualities. And those in quadras which value that element have a difficult time convincing others of what it's actually like.

hello that's what's been done to for months on this forum with all im's. what's the beef now?

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Joy]

What does "picking apart Fi" mean? Again, I never said I don't bash people.

Ascribing false and negative qualities to it and then accusing people of having those qualities. The same thing that is sometimes done to Fe (and other elements) when people claim that it has certain qualities they dislike, and it may not even have those qualities. And those in quadras which value that element have a difficult time convincing others of what it's actually like.

hello that's what's been done to for months on this forum with all im's. what's the beef now?

The same things it always was?

[Gilly]

@ Gilly: Blaze's quotes were all an example of ascribing negative qualities to Fi - yours were an example of personally attacking people with Fi rather than Fe values.

Alright, well quit fucking compromising my credibility by lumping me in with Blaze.

fuck you then lol

Fi does have negative qualities. all the im's do. accept and deal.

Good point. Not like they haven't been ascribing "expecting too much of people" to Fe throughout the goddamn thread...

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Gilly]

Yeah, but you connote it negatively, just like you "accuse" us of doing.

[XoX]

I don't think he realized how adamantly she would dislike it. He had never done that to her before. His intent was to surprise her and get her to scream/laugh in a good way, not an angry way. I am pretty sure that in that same situation I would have screamed first in surprise and then laughed. I would not have scolded and moped. But that's just me. And as I said, he learned his lesson.

heh, yeah, i think richard (isfp) has a bit of a prankster in himself as well that he tends to curb around me. he too learned the hard way

the best pranksters i've met have been infp/isfp. i don't like pranks in general, but their's are ...liveable??

I guess I generally perceive pranks as an act of war . Then again hard to tell my reaction for sure as I don't remember anyone doing a prank on me.

[redbaron]

I don't think he realized how adamantly she would dislike it. He had never done that to her before. His intent was to surprise her and get her to scream/laugh in a good way, not an angry way. I am pretty sure that in that same situation I would have screamed first in surprise and then laughed. I would not have scolded and moped. But that's just me. And as I said, he learned his lesson.

heh, yeah, i think richard (isfp) has a bit of a prankster in himself as well that he tends to curb around me. he too learned the hard way

the best pranksters i've met have been infp/isfp. i don't like pranks in general, but their's are ...liveable??

I guess I generally perceive pranks as an act of war . Then again hard to tell my reaction for sure as I don't remember anyone doing a prank on me.

My dad was constantly playing pranks so I grew up with it (it actually created a pretty fun atmosphere even though my mom always thought and still thinks it's on the immature side). He used to put plastic bugs in friends' salads when they went out for dinner. ha ha He also had this joke he would tell super loud in restaurants because he thought it was funny when people stared and made the people he was with squirm. Fe subtype, definitely. LOL

[XoX]

I don't think he realized how adamantly she would dislike it. He had never done that to her before. His intent was to surprise her and get her to scream/laugh in a good way, not an angry way. I am pretty sure that in that same situation I would have screamed first in surprise and then laughed. I would not have scolded and moped. But that's just me. And as I said, he learned his lesson.

heh, yeah, i think richard (isfp) has a bit of a prankster in himself as well that he tends to curb around me. he too learned the hard way

the best pranksters i've met have been infp/isfp. i don't like pranks in general, but their's are ...liveable??

I guess I generally perceive pranks as an act of war . Then again hard to tell my reaction for sure as I don't remember anyone doing a prank on me.

My dad was constantly playing pranks so I grew up with it (it actually created a pretty fun atmosphere even though my mom always thought and still thinks it's on the immature side). He used to put plastic bugs in friends' salads when they went out for dinner. ha ha He also had this joke he would tell super loud in restaurants because he thought it was funny when people stared and made the people he was with squirm. Fe subtype, definitely. LOL

Oh. I can see where you are coming from then. Well, my dad is ISFj.

[redbaron]

When I send a big long message to someone and they never respond, I feel disappointed - crushed - because I have invested alot of thought and feeling into my message. Then a while later, they're able to respond, they've just been busy. I feel like an idiot. But I also would appreciate it if people would dash off something like "I'm going to be busy for a while so don't worry if I don't reply". It saves me a lot of heartache. I'm a loser, I know.

My thoughts exactly.

[redbaron]

A real life example of how IEIs can feel underappreciated (not that that's what this thread is about but what the heck):

So in June my SEI friend had a birthday and I made him a CD of some of my favorite songs, ones I thought he would like by some groups I know we both like. I put a lot of thought into it. He loved it. It was great to see the expression on his face and I had a great time creating it.

Fast forward to today. My birthday. Now I'm not trying to be tit for tat and I wouldn't change my past actions regardless. But a) he didn't even know my birthday was today and b) even after finding out it was my birthday, he couldn't make up his mind if he wanted to go to our regular rehearsal (every Thursday night, which is basically the only time we have to talk in person) or some other coach's dinner (equally valid and a one-time deal). Somehow I expect him to choose the rehearsal because it's my birthday. Selfish, I guess. I don't need a gift but I want to know that I'm valued. Like on my birthday.

Yeah probably too much to expect from the male species, especially since it's not a romance. But still. I'm a bit hurt. I don't need him to go to the length that I did for his birthday but something would be nice. Even if it's just remembering.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[redbaron]

aka-kitsune, redbaron, and introspectivedolphin - the same kind of thing happens to me, and I end up feeling exactly the same way. I think everyone wants to know that they're appreciated, and gets down if they feel that they're not. I don't think this is something limited to any type. We all want to be acknowledged, not ignored or dismissed by people we care about.

Yup, I'm sure you're right. I wasn't necessarily claiming it was particular to my type. Just venting a bit of what was on my mind. Sorry--not trying to derail the Fi thread over my personal issues, LOL

[Creepy-Diana]

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[redbaron]

aka-kitsune, redbaron, and introspectivedolphin - the same kind of thing happens to me, and I end up feeling exactly the same way. I think everyone wants to know that they're appreciated, and gets down if they feel that they're not. I don't think this is something limited to any type. We all want to be acknowledged, not ignored or dismissed by people we care about.

Yup, I'm sure you're right. I wasn't necessarily claiming it was particular to my type. Just venting a bit of what was on my mind. Sorry--not trying to derail the Fi thread over my personal issues, LOL

LOL, it's not my thread - and I think it was derailed long ago.

[ScarlettLux]

Hey, who loves oranges!? I sure do! *Throws around some oranges from a basket*