The nature of Fi

[Khamelion]

Fe-valuing types do not need constant reassurance. Your boyfriend is depressed. Stop equating the two.

yes they do, thats what Fe is. outward expression of emotion which is an attempt to reassure those who need it. you're jsut being overly defensive because you thought i was saying that in a negative way.

and those two things were not connected. i was saying that you and blaze sound like him. get it strait if you're going to act like ass.


george, you're strait up being an ass because you're offended that peter doesn't warmly greet everyone as soon as they enter his surroundings. why the fuck do you care what he says to joy's sister? it isn't that he is lacking anything, its that she is expecting something that shouldn't be expected of everyone. he isn't outright mean, he just doesn't give her his full attention ALL the time EVERYTIME SHE WANTS IT.

are you saying we are responsible for feeding other's moods? bullshit.

It shouldn't be too much effort for your precious to distract from his INCREDIBLY busy schedule.

this is bullshit too. how much free time he has has ZERO to do with any effort put into emotional projection.

It's ungracious because people expect to be treated like people; SORRY if that's too much for you to comprehend.

and how is nodding when someone says hi NOT being treated like a person? i am no convinced you are pull this shit out of your ass. you have no clue what you're talking about.

[Animal]

Fe-valuing types do not need constant reassurance. Your boyfriend is depressed. Stop equating the two.

yes they do, thats what Fe is. outward expression of emotion which is an attempt to reassure those who need it. you're jsut being overly defensive because you thought i was saying that in a negative way.

Fe is about "reassurance" only in the sense that all extraverted functions need the "reassurance" of external information, or else will have nothing to go on. Introverted functions need external sources of information to go on as well, but the relationship in their case is switched.

[MysticSonic]

Hm...I don't see where Peter is responsible for conveying a sense of warmth in his own house, either. He lives there, that's his place of relaxation, thought, and privacy, and he has no obligation to make others feel as though they are "welcome." To me, though, there doesn't seem like there was any attempt made at resolving this communication difference? If there wasn't, wouldn't it seem worth it to at least make an attempt at doing so? Socionics doesn't dictate whom can live peaceably and comfortably with each other. I lived finely with an ISFj for 18 years.

[Joy]

Hm...I don't see where Peter is responsible for conveying a sense of warmth in his own house, either. He lives there, that's his place of relaxation, thought, and privacy, and he has no obligation to make others feel as though they are "welcome."

Well put.

To me, though, there doesn't seem like there was any attempt made at resolving this communication difference? If there wasn't, wouldn't it seem worth it to at least make an attempt at doing so? Socionics doesn't dictate whom can live peaceably and comfortably with each other. I lived finely with an ISFj for 18 years.

There was, to some extent. He's still not miss mary sunshine around her though. He isn't like that around anyone though, except me, and that's when there's no one else around (though I suppose I wouldn't describe that "miss merry sunshine" either ).

[MysticSonic]

Yeah, I dunno, maybe it's just me, but if I understood Peter was just "like that," then it wouldn't bother me at all. It would at first, as I am an inherently Fe seeking person, but if I understand what I would normally correlate to feelings of dislike is merely how the person acts and is not indicative of dislike, then it wouldn't bother me at all. Not to say I wouldn't prefer a warm environment, but I can't see that making me want to move...

Basically, if I knew a cold nod doesn't mean "I hate you," I wouldn't really care.

[aka-kitsune]

No, I don't think Fe is being fake - but for me to act in the same manner as a Fe person does WOULD be fake. For me: I'm happy- I smile. I'm really happy- I smile really big. I'm super duper extremely happy - I smile enormously and there's a spring to my step and I'm more chipper and bouncier. The peak of my expressiveness is much much lower than the peak of expressiveness for many Fe types. It's all more subtle -- and I'm more likely to notice more subtle changes in someone else as well. When someone reacts to me in a very strong manner - either good or bad, and I don't see any justification for that -- I get really uncomfortable and want them to back off. Especially if they expect a similar reaction from me in turn.

Did you not just read my last post? Falsely portraying your own emotional state is NOT the natural way for an Fe type to behave. Fe "genuineness" is not exaggerating for effect; it's accurately representing your Fe state, no matter what the Fi consequences are.

(asking just to brainstorm) do you think a Fe (merry) type then would be more likely to say, engage in very friendly conversation without knowing how it would impact the Fi? Or do you think the two are essentialy paired?

I don't tend to want to be "overly" friendly unless I'm at ease with the people around. And FWIW, I've always been extra conscious not to flirt with guys I'm not attracted to unless I'm reasonably sure they're "safe" (attached/trusted) and won't misconstrue my enthusiasm.

I'm always highly aware the effect my affect has on others.

[redbaron]

Yeah, I dunno, maybe it's just me, but if I understood Peter was just "like that," then it wouldn't bother me at all. It would at first, as I am an inherently Fe seeking person, but if I understand what I would normally correlate to feelings of dislike is merely how the person acts and is not indicative of dislike, then it wouldn't bother me at all. Not to say I wouldn't prefer a warm environment, but I can't see that making me want to move...

Basically, if I knew a cold nod doesn't mean "I hate you," I wouldn't really care.

This is exactly what I said earlier. Seems obvious even without socionics that some people aren't as openly effusive or friendly as others and that that doesn't necessarily mean there's anything wrong with the relationship.

@ Joy--Just tell her (which I'm sure you've done) that that's just how Peter is and not to take it personally. If she can't get over that, then she's maybe a bit overly sensitive and/or insecure (not saying she is, just that it doesn't seem like too much to ask for her to try to understand who Peter is if she's going to live with you for awhile). And I think it's very nice that you've opened your home to them. It's not easy having another couple/family in your house.

[Khamelion]

Fe-valuing types do not need constant reassurance. Your boyfriend is depressed. Stop equating the two.

yes they do, thats what Fe is. outward expression of emotion which is an attempt to reassure those who need it. you're jsut being overly defensive because you thought i was saying that in a negative way.

Fe is about "reassurance" only in the sense that all extraverted functions need the "reassurance" of external information, or else will have nothing to go on. Introverted functions need external sources of information to go on as well, but the relationship in their case is switched.

that is basically what i mean't, you worded it better

[Gilly]

Fe-valuing types do not need constant reassurance. Your boyfriend is depressed. Stop equating the two.

yes they do, thats what Fe is. outward expression of emotion which is an attempt to reassure those who need it. you're jsut being overly defensive because you thought i was saying that in a negative way.

and those two things were not connected. i was saying that you and blaze sound like him. get it strait if you're going to act like ass.

It was negative. Look at the rest of your post:

WHY WOULD THEY NOT FEEL WELCOME IF THEY WERE INVITED

It's an issue of Fe damnit. Needing constant reassurence. Some. People. Hate. Having. To. Do. That.

asigfkalwertq324908t3gnjn the way you respond to shit pisses me offfffffffffff...its like patrick >

Now tell me that wasn't negatively connoted.

Fe types do not need constant reassurance in the sense of always needing to hear that you love them. They DO appreciate warmth and familiarity in communication, showing that the other person is putting effort into the relationship instead of just constantly relaying information, and prefer people not to behave like fucking robots.

george, you're strait up being an ass because you're offended that peter doesn't warmly greet everyone as soon as they enter his surroundings. why the fuck do you care what he says to joy's sister? it isn't that he is lacking anything, its that she is expecting something that shouldn't be expected of everyone. he isn't outright mean, he just doesn't give her his full attention ALL the time EVERYTIME SHE WANTS IT.

are you saying we are responsible for feeding other's moods? bullshit.

Sorry, I've just never met someone who doesn't verbally acknowledge someone they know when they come into their presence and haven't been for a while. I can't think of any Fi type I know who would think otherwise, ESPECIALLY if it's someone who's living in the same house.

I don't know the full situation, but my point is that if you don't have the decency to talk to someone you know when they attempt to engage you, or even say "Sorry, I'm reading, could we talk in a little bit?" then you're an asshole.

Now if he is legitimately acknowledging them, then I see no reason for trouble, and Joy's guests are just insecure; nothing to do with their valuing Fe. In this case, Joy is clearly making something out of nothing, as she's famous for doing.

[Gilly]

It's ungracious because people expect to be treated like people; SORRY if that's too much for you to comprehend.

Please, tell us. What should one do to treat others like people?

Reciprocate a salutation. Treat another person as an equal unless you have reason to do otherwise.

Your lack of emotional intelligence does not equate to an implicit lack of shared responsibility with the rest of the world.

Me? What am I responsible for?

Nothing literally, but it would be nice if you would give something back to people other than the 2 or 3 you choose to be warm with. Sorry if I can't put the concept of emotional reciprocation and love for your fellow man into your head. Do you just not like people?

It shouldn't be too much effort for your precious to distract from his INCREDIBLY busy schedule.

His schedule is none of your business.

Why did you even respond? 0wned.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Gilly]

Gilly, will you please just shut up. Man, you're trying to shove your ideas of how someone should act down everyone's throat. We're not all alike. We're not all able to respond how you WOULD LIKE PEOPLE to - just because you have these ideas in your head as to what proper behavior or whatever is doesn't mean it's a universal that everyone accepts and agrees on. People are different. We have different styles of communicating and relating. I'd think that with all your time here learning about socionics you would have figured that out.

Sorry if it seems that way to you, but all I'm saying is that there would be a lot fewer problems in the world if everyone would just communicate. Case in point. I know people are "different," but I really don't see how it's unreasonable to expect people to treat you like an equal. Maybe that's it, maybe you're just arrogant. Too good to treat people how they treat you and you feel like making up an excuse?

[Creepy-Diana]

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[munenori2]

It's ungracious because people expect to be treated like people; SORRY if that's too much for you to comprehend.

Please, tell us. What should one do to treat others like people?

Reciprocate a salutation. Treat another person as an equal unless you have reason to do otherwise.

Your lack of emotional intelligence does not equate to an implicit lack of shared responsibility with the rest of the world.

Me? What am I responsible for?

Nothing literally, but it would be nice if you would give something back to people other than the 2 or 3 you choose to be warm with. Sorry if I can't put the concept of emotional reciprocation and love for your fellow man into your head. Do you just not like people?

It shouldn't be too much effort for your precious to distract from his INCREDIBLY busy schedule.

His schedule is none of your business.

Why did you even respond? 0wned.

How hard is it to acknowledge that people are different, that they need different things, that they expect different things? I'm not saying you're wrong, Gilly, not at all. But at some point we have to realize that we're separate and distinct. People might not live up to our expectations and we might very well judge others according to our own measure, but let's not lose sight that we are different, and legitmately so. Sometimes I think we get so caught up in our own perspective that we fail to see how things might be different. Don't take this as a deprecation of the person you are, that's just human nature, but can't we just take a step back from it all and try to understand that other people might think or feel differently than we do? I'm trying not to oversimplify what it is you have to say and if I am, please try to clarify things for me. I just think that often we don't try hard enough to see how other people can be different, but still be worth trying to understand. It's about the effort and the time put in. If anything, the amount of posts on this issue is telling of how we look at things from different perspectives. I think that's a good thing. I'm not entirely convinced that you think that it's otherwise. In fact, I'm willing to admit that I don't know you or where you're coming from, not necessarily anyway. It just seems like we always try to be so judgemental and that, in doing so, we lose sight of the larger perspective of things. Can't we all be humble in the knowledge that we only see things from our point of view? In a way, I feel like I keep trying to repeat myself and am saying the same thing over and over again, but I think it's important, and valuable. Maybe it's a sign of my own limits in seeing the world we all live in, but why can't we all live and let live and be willing to admit that we all only see a part of what is? If this offends you, I'm sorry. That's not my intention at all. I just think we let ourselves get in the way of understanding one another.

Edit: And maybe I'm not making much sense here, but I'm speaking from the heart. As wasted as I am right now, I think there's something to all this, that as different as we all may be, that sometimes we fail to see the value we all have to offer one another. Maybe that makes me weird, but there it is.

[Khamelion]

BLLLAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH


no. just, no.

[Creepy-bg]

what's your substance munenori2? (you look sort of baked out in that avatar (if that's you ))

[Ms. Kensington]

Yeah, I dunno, maybe it's just me, but if I understood Peter was just "like that," then it wouldn't bother me at all. It would at first, as I am an inherently Fe seeking person, but if I understand what I would normally correlate to feelings of dislike is merely how the person acts and is not indicative of dislike, then it wouldn't bother me at all. Not to say I wouldn't prefer a warm environment, but I can't see that making me want to move...

Basically, if I knew a cold nod doesn't mean "I hate you," I wouldn't really care.

This is exactly what I said earlier.

me too

Oh, is Mystic sonic here? That means I basically don't have to post since he and I think EXACTLY alike.

[aestrivex]

BLLLAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH


no. just, no.

lol exactly.

[Khamelion]

[Khamelion]

[munenori2]

what's your substance munenori2? (you look sort of baked out in that avatar (if that's you ))

lol, just vodka and steel reserve tonight. Used to actually be baked. Was stone cold sober in the pic though.

[Gilly]

Gilly, will you please just shut up. Man, you're trying to shove your ideas of how someone should act down everyone's throat. We're not all alike. We're not all able to respond how you WOULD LIKE PEOPLE to - just because you have these ideas in your head as to what proper behavior or whatever is doesn't mean it's a universal that everyone accepts and agrees on. People are different. We have different styles of communicating and relating. I'd think that with all your time here learning about socionics you would have figured that out.

Sorry if it seems that way to you, but all I'm saying is that there would be a lot fewer problems in the world if everyone would just communicate. Case in point. I know people are "different," but I really don't see how it's unreasonable to expect people to treat you like an equal. Maybe that's it, maybe you're just arrogant. Too good to treat people how they treat you, eh?

Your idea of treating someone like an equal is not the same as mine. And it has nothing to do with arrogance. No, I can't treat them the way they treat me, any more than they are able to treat me the way I treat them. Both sides have tried -- I put that experiment to the test for a number of years, and it failed. I don't think that the alpha irrationals I've known IRL, nor the ENTps here quite get that they are being incredibly demanding and selfish to try to get people to morph to their ideas of what is acceptable behavior. The best we can do is accept each other, and not expect the other to become something they're not. I've never had any problems with the alpha rationals. They seem to get it.

I believe I've gone on an extensive rant about this before, but I don't expect anything of people I know IRL that they don't give, and if I ever do, I feel piss poor about it, so don't throw this "my husband blah blah blah" bullshit at me, ok compadre? I've just never met someone who ignores verbal acknowledgment, ESPECIALLY when it comes from someone you LIVE WITH. Now maybe I'm just not getting what went down, but the way I see it, I'm not expecting anything short of sane behavior; you don't just nod people off when they try to fucking communicate with you.

[Gilly]

How hard is it to acknowledge that people are different, that they need different things, that they expect different things?

So this is an endless debate. Nobody is right here, because no matter how we "acknowledge" our differences, it's only a two-sided coin, and we can't do things both ways every time.

[Blaze]

By the way, Joy, the reason your sister-in-law has problems with Peter is because he's being an ungracious git. I know plenty of ESIs who have no problem showing people common respect, and absolutely expect the same of others; being an isolationist is NOT type related. Probably more related to the fact that both of you are Enneagram so variants last.

He's not being rude or mean. He's being indifferent, for the most part. How is that ungracious, especially considering we let them move in here and stay with us for free?

ahhhh the true issue emerges at last. and you don't think they pick up on that? i'm quite sure they don't feel completely welcome.

WHY WOULD THEY NOT FEEL WELCOME IF THEY WERE INVITED

It's an issue of Fe damnit. Needing constant reassurence. Some. People. Hate. Having. To. Do. That.

asigfkalwertq324908t3gnjn the way you respond to shit pisses me offfffffffffff...its like patrick >

Kelly, it's just ENTp. Gilly responded the same way Blaze did "why can't you make some effort". It's not something you can really explain fully. I spent many many years trying to have my own needs respected and not having these expectations forced onto me. People are tuned for different things - and there's quite a gap to try to bridge, and I'm not even sure it's able to be bridged in some cases. They expect you to bend to their needs and wants, but I don't think they realize that's what they're doing, because it's just part of a person's nature to expect certain things. It's what the whole idea of duality is about. ENTps expect Fe and Si and for someone who isn't able to give either - it will increasingly be a strain over time. The same way that gamma SFs will expect Ni and Te, things that aren't so natural for an ENTp. You both end up feeling like you can't be what the other wants -- because you can't. You just can't. It doesn't mean you can't get along, and you can't have awesome conversations, great times, or love each other. But there is certainly a gap in what you each expect from the other, and just your approaches towards people in general.

my issue is only that it's hard to tell what's going on in the relationships without any Fe. i'm sorry you were in a relationships with somebody who you feel had expectations of you which you could not meet. it sounds like your ex didn't meet your expectations either. do you think he could feel your expectations of him as well?

i don't appreciate the type bashing that seems to be in your post....when it's an entp's expectations it's being "forced on you and your needs aren't taken into consideration"...but you seem to think that your expectations aren't also being forced on the entp? come on. perhaps your ex did want you to bend...bending would imply that he thought that you could easily do this. evidently you doing this would not be easy for you at all since it's not who you are. don't you think you expected him to bend too? not trying to beat a dead horse here but i don't see you taking any responsibility just blaming your ex and lashing out at what you think is similar behavior from myself and gilly. khamelion is doing the same thing. what i don't understand is how she can possibly be considering marriage to an entp when these type of issues are so patently obvious.

my other issue with this entire thread is that a lot of the the gammas posting here don't want to take responsibility for the down side of Fi. it's like you want to interpret this information element as being entirely noble and good when a lot of times the expression of Fi is judgmental, cold, evaluating, and twisted in its own way. as all information elements can be. a lot of the gammas try to spin imformation elements that they don't value as being somehow inferior or bad, thus putting your quadra values ahead of others. this is bullshit. and perhaps what some people here react to. same with Te...like Te somehow has some type of better handle on reality over other information elements.

an easy way to de-value another quadra's values is to pick apart their information elements and personally attack people. i don't see much understanding here.

regarding joy's house situation, their guests have done things to cause tension. they know it. so they read peter's normal presentation as being connected to that. maybe joy and peter don't care about what they've done. i doubt that it has absolutely no bearing on their household interactions though. socionics is about what it's like to relate to different types on a close psychological distance. you can't get much closer than living in the same household. if their guests value Fe, then it's not going to be forthcoming in joy's household and this also will cause some tension. yeah, if i knew peter IRL i would probably realize that that's just him don't take it personally. but since i value Fe, it would be hard to live with day in and day out. it would be easier to accept if i wasn't living in the same household.

a lot of what is being said is about what's valued and what's being neglected here is that Fi is the polr of entp and estp. part of what is being described is how entp/estp experience Fi. those of you who value Fi don't want to hear it. i think it's important that you do, because if socionics is right, then there's a substantial number of Fi polr types around....and if you are trying to apply socionics then it's important to be aware of others' polr at least to some extent.

[Joy]

part of what is being described is how entp/estp experience Fi.

I've thought of that... that what you guys have been describing as "social rules" or "social etiquette" is just how Fi looks through Fi PoLR eyes.

For example, if a guy is talking to me and he doesn't respect a boundary while trying to fill his Fe hidden agenda (this just happened less than a week ago), my response would probably seem cold to him. In another situation (or if he didn't drop it) I may have expressed to him in one form or another that his behavior is inappropriate.

Now, my response to him had NOTHING to do with "social rules" or "social etiquette", but I could see from his perspective how he might think it does. (Interestingly, now that I think about it, he may even think I dislike him, which isn't the case.)

We see the world through colored glasses, and the color is our quadra values. If I was looking through blue glasses and I saw something yellow, to me it would look green, and if I didn't know any better, I'd probably call it that. ExTps see people's responses to their Fi violations through Fe/Ti glasses. It's no wonder that what they perceive is "social" "rules" or "etiquette".

[Ezra]

How hard is it to acknowledge that people are different, that they need different things, that they expect different things?

So this is an endless debate. Nobody is right here, because no matter how we "acknowledge" our differences, it's only a two-sided coin, and we can't do things both ways every time.

True, but what you've got to remember is that debate leads to understanding which leads to tolerance leading to a better world. No cliche intended. Essentially, if you put an SLE and an EII in the same room, of course there will be shit to start with, and probably to end with too, but intertype relationship theory aside, you pick things up; you learn things; you understand things. Differences are a natural part of life.

[Khamelion]

my other issue with this entire thread is that a lot of the the gammas posting here don't want to take responsibility for the down side of Fi. it's like you want to interpret this information element as being entirely noble and good when a lot of times the expression of Fi is judgmental, cold, evaluating, and twisted in its own way.

i don't ever experience this down side, that might be why i never talk about it...

not trying to beat a dead horse here but i don't see you taking any responsibility just blaming your ex and lashing out at what you think is similar behavior from myself and gilly. khamelion is doing the same thing. what i don't understand is how she can possibly be considering marriage to an entp when these type of issues are so patently obvious.

responsibility for what? have i not said that it is purely a difference in values on each side? all i have done is express which values i hold, in a way that somehow threatens a couple ENTp's. i wasn't making any comparison between my fiance, gilly and you until you said something that sounded exactly like him, which isn't a damn crime.

i barely want to address the bolded bit...i'll probably snap mid-sentance and start typing obscenities in caps.


i'm pretty sure diana was trying to remind me of our differences, and sort of explain why I was getting annoyed. not bash any types.


not to mention
EVERY QUADRA BASHES OTHER QUADRAS SOMETIMES

you alpha's do it allllll the time. espcially gilly. and Fe-manipulators do it. george is actually surprisingly good at that for an ENTp.

gamma does it with their "cold" Fi and Te blasting i guess, judgemental as you say

beta does it but wacking others with their wangs lol

you get my point hopefully....

So this is an endless debate. Nobody is right here, because no matter how we "acknowledge" our differences, it's only a two-sided coin, and we can't do things both ways every time.

i dont see how you are coming to this conclusion

you don't just nod people off when they try to fucking communicate with you.

YOU DO WHEN YOU ARE BUSY. AND WHEN YOU SEE THEM EVERYDAY. AND WHEN YOU DONT FEEL LIKE TALKING TO PEOPLE AND ARE IN YOUR OWN HOUSE.

what is so hard to understand about this
no one is taking into account that they TALK AT OTHER TIMES, WHEN BOTH PARTIES FEEL LIKE IT






garrrrrrrrrrr...

[Blaze]

We see the world through colored glasses, and the color is our quadra values. If I was looking through blue glasses and I saw something yellow, to me it would look green, and if I didn't know any better, I'd probably call it that. ExTps see people's responses to their Fi violations through Fe/Ti glasses. It's no wonder that what they perceive is "social" "rules" or "etiquette".

agreed. so then some gamma and delta types would have red colored glasses on when it comes to Fe...and the "yellow" would appear to be "orange" to them. since Fe fucks with the polr of intp and istp, it's no wonder that Fe would appear to be superficial and emotionally manipulative to them, when actually Fe is a genuine external expression of how Fe people feel inside and a genuine reflection of what Fe valuing types need to assess relationships.

[Blaze]

i don't ever experience this down side, that might be why i never talk about it...

yet you have experienced it...in this thread. if you've been able to listen that is.

i barely want to address the bolded bit...i'll probably snap mid-sentance and start typing obscenities in caps.

if some entp's on the internet can piss you off so much...how much more will a real one piss you off when the going gets tough in marriage? just something to ponder.

[Khamelion]

i don't ever experience this down side, that might be why i never talk about it...

yet you have experienced it...in this thread. if you've been able to listen that is.

i barely want to address the bolded bit...i'll probably snap mid-sentance and start typing obscenities in caps.

if some entp's on the internet can piss you off so much...how much more will a real one piss you off when the going gets tough in marriage? just something to ponder.

no, other people are talking about experiencing it. i don't experience it.

patrick does piss me off occasionally, in the nearly same exact ways some forum entp's do. but that doesn't mean i dislike entp's and/or cannot get along with them. right now im pretty annoyed with you but still like you for some reason. same with george, probably a little moreso since we have developed a sort of bond over time. we just piss each other off sometimes.

i said that stuff about obscenities because im annoyed when my relationships are questioned like that. im well aware of the frictions and tensions, and what they could possibly lead to. thats all that needs to be known. ill deal with my own relationship even if its with my conflictor.

[Shazaam]

Okay first off, Gilly is 110% right and everybody else is wrong. Based on life experiences outside what you find on a forum. Fact is fact folks. I may not like the fact that I can't get pregnant, but I can't and I just have to deal with it. Gilly is right, you are wrong, so just suck it up and deal with it. It's as simple as that.

In a social situation I would naturally gravitate to Gilly just because he's right about this, and you guys are wrong, and it's really as simple as that.

I don't know how to really umm formulate my thoughts further on this, but PLEASE for your own sakes, just listen to what Gilly is telling you. He's right. Stop being so stubborn and just...no. I'll come back later when I've calmed down a bit and I can express myself more clearly. I know that you guys THINK you're right and he's just being...whatever, and I know you've convinced yourselves of it, but you're just not....it's not how social and human relationships work, and quite frankly you guys are just kind of being depressed nobodys if you think anyone truly likes that kind of un-human behavior in you. If you say 'well I have at least one person that really understands me. Whee Fi!!!' you should look at is as 'maybe this person is as fucked up as I am and we're just sharing in our misery?'

Yeah that sounds kind of harsh but just think about it. And of course it's not about being fake or trying to change people or being an obnoxious bitch either, but you guys are just missing the mark. *sigh*

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[anndelise]

I was asked to respond due to the lack of Delta creative Fi responses.

: if someone commented on my poor hostess skills I would assume they said it because of my house, and when you have guests in your house you're "supposed to" make sure they're comfortable.....

as far as I'm concerned, I purchased a coffee maker and some coffee because you were visiting....I figured you would know how you like your coffee far better than me; (and inside also a whispered voice of "I'm not your caretaker, do it yourself")

Is this an example? My ISFp dad used to play practical jokes on my INFj mom. One of the worst (to her) was when he poured cold water on her in the shower. Just wanted to get a rise out of her but she was really upset and didn't think it was funny at all. She thought that no loving husband would do such a thing to his wife. He thought it was hilarious. But has since realized it was immature.

He still has to hold himself back from doing things kind of like that (not so extreme) out of respect for my mother's sense of what is appropriate or not appropriate.

That's not an example of objective/social appropriateness or not….it's an example of the INFj didn't like having the cold water poured on her in the shower. Surely he knew she wouldn't like it (who would?), yet he did it to her anyways. If he loves her as much as he says he does, why would he deliberately do something to her that he KNOWS she won't like?

i agree that this is one aspect. esp of the connection between Fi and Fe. what i am saying is that there are external aspects to Fi in terms of how it is expressed.

Yes, and this would mostly done by either Te, Ne, or Se, or a combo of Te/Ne Te/Se.

socionics: information metabolism. how people in society communicate with one another.

how is social etiquette not socionically related?

and, no one is answering this from the Fi camp: if it is not Fi related, then to which IM element is it related??

And yet, interestingly enough, socionics was created by a Ti creative (Fi polr) and heavily influenced by Ti base. Doesn't that tell you anything??

Did you not just read my last post? Falsely portraying your own emotional state is NOT the natural way for an Fe type to behave. Fe "genuineness" is not exaggerating for effect; it's accurately representing your Fe state, no matter what the Fi consequences are.

And yet, you are asking the Fi types to fake the genuineness of their own responses.

Your lack of emotional intelligence does not equate to an implicit lack of shared responsibility with the rest of the world.

lol, can we say social rules? Coming from a Ti? A Ti who likes to say it's supposedly Fi?


As for the concepts of roles, etc. That's not an Fi thing to begin with, though Fi can be affected by it. As diana and danielle have tried to say, Fi is about personal connections, not objective nor defined connections (ex: social roles). When a person interprets an Fi's actions/motivations and use the concepts of social roles or any other defined connection that is not personalized to that Fi person, then you're talking Ti/Fe axis and not Fi/Te axis. If you want to actually understand the Fi's motivations/actions, ask yourself (or the Fi/Te person) questions like: "What about this did you not like? What about this did you like? Do you think other people could like this? Do you think that your opinion is or should be a universal rule?"
Beware interpreting Fi based on Ti's perception of "rules/connections".

Anytime you talk about the "rules" of something, you are talking about individual relationships that are being made explicit. As in, Ti. When you are talking about rules of etiquette, you are removing the implicit connections and making them explicit. When you make it into a rule, you are also removing the subjectiveness of it so to make it more objective. Beware interpreting Fi based on Ti's perception (need?) for explicit and nonpersonalized connections.

The times when an Fi might consider something should be a universal rule is generally due to impositions during their upbringing (rules their environment gave them that they internalized) or mostly because they can't think of an instance when someone might want the opposite.

(btw, I find it kind of humorous that a couple of Ti people here complain that Fi is about social expectations….yet expect the Fi to behave/respond in a way that doesn't come natural to the Fi..as in "can't you put in a little more effort? Just smile back, it won't kill you"… basically, the Ti/Fe's who are saying this are expecting the Fi's to fulfill some kind of social obligation.)



About Fi and judging: just because there is an aspect or two about someone that I don't like, does NOT mean that I don't like the person. Or even if I don't like the person, it does NOT mean that the person is judged as "bad" or "without value". ALL it means is *I* do not like the person, period. Other people may like him/her. And that's perfectly fine. For Fi, it's about individual connections…as in one connection at a time. I like x, y, z about this person. I don't like b & c about them. The connections aren't brought together into one full judgment about the whole of the person. A person is not made up of only x, y, z, b, c. They are much more than that, and thus cannot be judged as a whole based on one or two of its parts.



On a more personal note. I personally have issues with Fe. (Not Fe people, just Fe.) But that has to do with my upbringing where in order to survive (literally) I had to be hyperaware of an Fi's moods and the potential of their very sudden mood swings. Due to this, even an Fi's signals seem loud to me. Making most of the Fe signals I see seem like screaming.

I can understand a person's desire for Fe signals. For an Fe type to not get those signals would be like blindfolding them and plugging up their ears. It's information they use..need even..and if they aren't getting that information, then it's like not getting the whole story. However, I cannot give them the whole story unless they ask the right questions. They don't know what the right questions are unless I give the Fe to them. So it often becomes a stalemate, unfortunately.

So, while being around Fe people, it's frustrating to us both, it's painful to me (and maybe them?), and it's filled with miscommunications (on both sides)… but noone is to blame for it and it says nothing good nor bad about either of us.

What I find most frustrating is being around Ti people. This thread is an example of why I dislike trying to communicate with Ti people. Does this mean that I dislike Ti people? No. Being frustrated and often disliking trying to communicate with them says nothing about them themselves…only about how I personally feel when I personally am around them under certain conditions, period.

[aka-kitsune]

I can understand a person's desire for Fe signals. For an Fe type to not get those signals would be like blindfolding them and plugging up their ears. It's information they use..need even..and if they aren't getting that information, then it's like not getting the whole story. However, I cannot give them the whole story unless they ask the right questions. They don't know what the right questions are unless I give the Fe to them. So it often becomes a stalemate, unfortunately.

So, while being around Fe people, it's frustrating to us both, it's painful to me (and maybe them?), and it's filled with miscommunications (on both sides)… but noone is to blame for it and it says nothing good nor bad about either of us.

So... what, then? Any solutions to this stalemate?

Certainly, I've got a few NeFi people I'd like to get closer to. I don't want to give up trying to understand them, give them what they need in order to hear me, show they'd like to value me too. Most of this thread veers back and forth between the extremes of "right" v. "wrong", or "me" v. "you". But it's not a matter of "winning" in relationships with other people. It's about win-win. And that requires compromise and accomodation (at times). It all depends on what you're willing to do to demonstrate to the other person you're willing to meet them in the middle; that you care enough to try out of concern for them. No matter what my information element my perception comes from, I'll need some evidence that the other person is actually trying on their end. Without input at all, it's certainly not irrational to just assume there's just no interest.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Blaze]

wow look at all this defensiveness. i feel like i'm talking to a wall. maybe you feel like that too. this is useless. one can see how talking about emotions and relationships is inherently controversial, much more controversial than talking about things/logic.

most of this stuff is open to quite a bit of interpretation and each type is going to make slightly different interpretations based on their socionic IM lineup. if we believe in socionics that is. i agree in theory with some of what has been said, but, having said that, it doesn't match my perception. these interactions are driving me to reach a conclusion that although socionics appears to have some face validity, in actual practice, so many different arguments can be made for what information elements mean and for whom and under what conditions, that i think it undermines the validity of the whole theory.

i've made my points i'm not going to re-state them despite people calling in more "Fi" types in order to "win" or gain some kind of perceived advantage. my intention was not to offend anybody personally. you must think my arguments are strong otherwise you would not do this. perhaps other's intentions have not been to offend me but i have found both the process and some of the content here and in other threads offensive.

[Joy]

What offended you?

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Creepy-Diana]

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[anndelise]

I can understand a person's desire for Fe signals. For an Fe type to not get those signals would be like blindfolding them and plugging up their ears. It's information they use..need even..and if they aren't getting that information, then it's like not getting the whole story. However, I cannot give them the whole story unless they ask the right questions. They don't know what the right questions are unless I give the Fe to them. So it often becomes a stalemate, unfortunately.

So, while being around Fe people, it's frustrating to us both, it's painful to me (and maybe them?), and it's filled with miscommunications (on both sides)… but noone is to blame for it and it says nothing good nor bad about either of us.

So... what, then? Any solutions to this stalemate?

Heh, my infp friends and i are still working on it.
One thing we've learned is that as long as we aren't both working on the same thing, or on a project together, we can get along much better.
I like that infps are really good at catching on that there is more to what I'm saying than what I said. I like that infps will play the mental what if games with me.
I know that they tend to get frustrated because outwardly I can be so calm during discussions (except when i'm REALLY frustrated or excited). I know that they tend to get frustrated because I don't let them know by my body signals, etc that I understand what they are saying. I know that sometimes they question if I'm even listening to them.
I know that sometimes i have great difficulty staying on the topic they are discussing..even in my own head...but that's a personal (mine) fault that may or may not be linked to being enfp. I'll often pop out a comment or two that has nothing to do with what they are saying, (i often don't know what i'm going to say until it's said), and that tends to throw them off (unless i first give a cue like "there's a bird"...which lets them know that what I'm about to say probably has nothing to do with what they were talking about and can be ignored with no ill feelings whatsoever. Actually, this cue has GREATLY relieved a number of misinterpretations and ill feelings between the infps i know and myself.)

I think that they may sometimes feel hurt when I don't respond to a comment they made. Usually at those times I would normally just nod my head or give a vague smile (to me it's a smile, but outside of me it is easily viewed as too subtle to be real....or something like that). I'm learning to make my acknowledgement and/or appreciation for the comment to be more obvious...but it's a slow process, and i sometimes forget...and it's virtually worthless on the computer.

I think that something goes on in their heads when I start pm/im-ing them and then i get distracted elsewhere or I've said all i wanted to say at the moment or I already know I'm about to move away from the topic and will cut the conversation off. I try to be polite about it, but I think that maybe they still feel hurt(?). I think that sometimes they feel kind of used by me, like they were the closest at hand or the only one on line that i could blurt out whatever was running through my head. To be honest, sometimes that is the case, but most of the time, I only tell them because i feel that they are the only ones that might have a clue as to what I'm feeling/thinking. Sometimes I'm too uncomfy with the subject myself and don't want to continue it. Sometimes I don't think they quite caught on to what i mean or something and will feel disappointed and need to pull away for a moment. (they do similar to the last part too).

It's just really hard because there are so many areas for miscommunications between us..or lack of communications between us. I think both parties outwardly act as if we expect the other to know what's in our heads without us saying it. But part of that has to do with so many seemingly similarities..and when it's shown that there are distinct differences (Ne is NOT Ni nor Fe and Ni is NOT Ne nor Fi) then it can hurt both parties.

But ultimately, I believe that recognizing that there seems to be similarities on the surface but there are actually vast differences underneath the surface has helped be more patient and more willing to alter communication attempts/techniques. Yes we both have N accepting and F creative, but the differences between the two sets of functions and the hidden agendas/polrs make for some potentially major misunderstandings/misinterpretations/miscommunications. KNOWING all this, I believe helps one or both parties put more effort into reducing those potential affects.

For now, that's about the best I can think of. It's not exactly satisfactory, but it's a start.