The role of IQ in dualization

[redbaron]

the LSAT is pretty rigorous.

yes, but understand that people are conditioned towards school. kids are taught 'correct' problem solving methods. thus, many kids score higher on tests like the SAT's than what their true abilities are. I believe you that it is difficult, and again, you must be highly intelligent to pass it, but scholastic tests are not the best indicator of "true," or fluid, intelligence. fluid intelligence - as opposed to crystallized intelligence - is, to me, more important because it deals with solving new problems, given no knowledge. It is how creatively, quickly and acutely you can think, not what you memorized for a test.

Well this is a good point. My husband is notoriously great at standardized tests. LOL But I think he's less creative in the real world. That's not meant to be a criticism, just the way his mind works. He loved school and has a memory like a steel trap (my daughter also, who is ESE).

[strrrng]

ESxJ's are known for their memory.

[strrrng]

ESxJ's are known for their memory.

[strrrng]

true, they both work hand in hand.

Personally, I don't value IQ tests. I've taken some accurate ones (mensa, etc.) and scored well, but still don't care because understanding and believing in the way and level at which I think is more important. Even though a genius will score a genius on the test, it is only because his intellect is so vast that even when a small picture of it is captured, he will be portrayed accurately, on a general level. I think of it like one of those things like a telescope shape that you look into and see the cool pattern pictures....well a mind is like one of those pictures, except much bigger....and an IQ test is like looking through the scope. There is just so much to be understood.

But if you asked me to add a section to the wechsler, I couldn't tell you.....still though.

btw, was that metaphor a little Ni? It felt like it, the way I spontaneously came up with it.

[strrrng]

yeah, and unlike more random connections, i think it actually helps to demonstrate your example. so that's probably N + T of some kind. i would say Ni because we're not defining a structure here as much as we are making evaluations of an existing one. the Ni, if it is Ni, could be in your id bloc though.

I don't think it's in my id block. That is how I normally think. and your wording - "defining a structure" was appropriate, as it represents the difference accurately. I don't find myself defining structures, but more or less understanding the whole, and I use metaphors and images a lot.

[strrrng]

I have also noticed the role of Ni in the game reversi. While foresight is not as imperative as in chess, this game is all about timing (not to mention spatial skills, but that's irrelevant)....I've noticed many opponents make a move that could have potential benefit - if done one move later. This seems to be a lack of Ni, or a lack of grasp of cause-and-effect and time's unfolding of events.

I dunno....just played some dude who fucked up, so yeah....

[lefty]

It is about what you are rewarded for, Machintruc

You've never met a very smart EIE?
I know a bunch.
A few very smart ESEs too.


IQ my bum

I know a smart EIE girl, but this is an exception...

Most EF types have low IQ. It's statistical.

i refuse to believe that alpha females of any kind generally have low iqs. also 126 isn't that high of an iq...especially in alpha territory.

[lefty]

Let me finish that. He got a JD at YLS while at the same time having three babies within 22 months. Well, I had the babies but he dealt with it too. Got up with me for every feeding of the twins (who were born during the first semester of his first year). Not bad. Doesn't mean he has a crazy-great IQ but he's probably above average.

I wasn't notioning he was average; I just know the kind of bias that comes along with the term 'educated'. however, I believe that anyone who attends yale must be at least above average.

So what would you say the average IQ of INTj, INTp, ESFj and ENFp would be? I still do not believe in that but maybe it's my lack of logical thinking typical to my type

these are my honest guesses. INTj - 120, INTp - 125, ESFj - 110, ENFp - 110-115. but you can never be sure....I mean, I just put the INT's in the 'superior' range (top 5-10%) and the other two in the high average/above average range (top 15-25), respectively.

I think INTJs will outshine and INTP. I think INTJs can potentially comprehend more complex math more easily where INTPS with their philosophical tendancies get distracted by metaphors or beauty. In otherwords I think the INTJ is better at living in the strickly abstract realm whereas INTPs are very often geniuses but are more in touch with everyday life which also has its applications. And you guys are event talking about ENTPS which have gotta be kind of the uber human.

Also I think your numbers are too low overall.

[lefty]

intelligence = ability to do the right thing

This is an inept definition of the kinds of intelligence that exist in the world, in my opinion. Socionics, of course, and MBTI allow for four types "intelligence" with 4 variations on them. IQ simply measures abstract logic skills of which the NTs will probably have the easiest time...Although with all this talk I feel like grasping tightly to social experiments about power and bias that produce unlivable and unjust outcomes and show the worst in people fighting for resources and status.

[Subteigh]

The people who boast about how high their IQs are, or who go on about how IQ = intelligence,, are actually really stupid and insecure, while those who play down their IQ and see such things as unimportant are actually really clever. Who needs all this scientific analysis and such anyhow? I can light my own farts!

[strrrng]

lefty, INTp's statistically outdo INTj's. The abstract vision and algorithmic logic vs. the comparitive logic and abstract focus....I wrote a whole post and it got deleted, so I can't write it all again. Ni is just a 'smarter' function than Ti (when combined with Te) because of it's dynamic insight and ability to see the real underlying patterns.

the numbers couldn't be too low. 120 is top 10% and 125 is top 5%. If INTp's averaged 130, virtually every INTp you came across would be gifted.

and subterranean, I completely agree with you.

[Logos]

Who needs all this scientific analysis and such anyhow?

maybe some people who are interested in psychology. maybe some people on a psychology forum.

Well thank goodness then that we're not on one of those forums, but on one dedicated to a speculative pseudo-science.

[Logos]

Who needs all this scientific analysis and such anyhow?

maybe some people who are interested in psychology. maybe some people on a psychology forum.

Well thank goodness then that we're not on one of those forums, but on one dedicated to a speculative pseudo-science.

obviously you're making fun of me. but i'm not sure how.

No, but I did spring-board off from your post.

1) is it because socionics is a speculative pseduo-science? to a large extent i agree, and have posted so in the past. it still at least strives to become psychology though, hence my categorization of the forum as such.

2) or is it because having called socionics pseduo-science in the past, my present "psychology" reference seems self-contradicting? i'd point out again what i said about "striving".

in either case, socionics doesn't seem all that detached from the study of intelligence.

This one.

[Subteigh]

i agree about the boasting part. talk is cheap.

Well, obviously when I complain about people who boast about IQs and intelligence and what not, it does not mean that I have a low IQ myself - I have an incredibly high IQ, though I think this is readily apparent to everybody, due to the blinkered, egotistical high regard I have of myself.

Ni is just a 'smarter' function than Ti (when combined with Te) because of it's dynamic insight and ability to see the real underlying patterns.

Oh, and as a sidenote, what type are you? I personally think that Fe is a smarter function than all the others, because of its dynamic insight and ability to see the real underlying patterns of fine fabrics. Ooh, fashion.

I can light my own farts!

There is beauty in all things...

[lefty]

lefty, INTp's statistically outdo INTj's. The abstract vision and algorithmic logic vs. the comparitive logic and abstract focus....I wrote a whole post and it got deleted, so I can't write it all again. Ni is just a 'smarter' function than Ti (when combined with Te) because of it's dynamic insight and ability to see the real underlying patterns.

the numbers couldn't be too low. 120 is top 10% and 125 is top 5%. If INTp's averaged 130, virtually every INTp you came across would be gifted.

and subterranean, I completely agree with you.

you know whose statistics are these? how was it conducted how many people were involved how many of these studies have been done, etc.

i would have liked to have read your post. yes i think there's intelligence in philosophy or the physics or whatever that's required to design a building, but i still think both of those things are more grounded in concrete reality than advanced mathematics, astronomy or phyisics or things entirely based on what can't be seen or whatever intjs find themselves good at. I'm not trying to claim myself as being a genius with this posts im just talking about geniuses.

Also I guess my view of IQ results is different in that i dont think of 130 being exceptionally high, but kind of the area where superior intelligence begins.

[strrrng]

I have an incredibly high IQ

oh really? Is that why you chastise it? So is this like, 'I hate snobby people who brag about their wealth but I love being wealthy' type of thing?

Oh, and as a sidenote, what type are you?

I'm INTp, no bias. I used to think myself INTj, but have always thought Ni-Te the "smartest" function combination.

you know whose statistics are these? how was it conducted how many people were involved how many of these studies have been done, etc.

i would have liked to have read your post. yes i think there's intelligence in philosophy or the physics or whatever that's required to design a building, but i still think both of those things are more grounded in concrete reality than advanced mathematics, astronomy or phyisics or things entirely based on what can't be seen or whatever intjs find themselves good at. I'm not trying to claim myself as being a genius with this posts im just talking about geniuses.

Also I guess my view of IQ results is different in that i dont think of 130 being exceptionally high, but kind of the area where superior intelligence begins.

in hhkkmr's article, INTp's scored the highest on average - the NP combination was the general factor, I think.

I think you're limiting INTp's. Te may be a concrete logic, but remember it is creative, there simply to support the philosophical, pattern-oriented Ni, whether it be through desigining a building or creating a computer programming system. On a sidenote, the two smartest kids in my school are INTp's, and here's a good example: this guy in my AP statistics class discerns the algorithm of the calculator's randomization technique and thus can predict as many numbers ahead as he wants. That's the type of stuff that I think seperates the Ni-Te from Ti-Ne. Where Ti-Ne can think abstractly and develop a theory, Ni-Te grasps the patterns that virtually no one else sees.

I don't think 130 is exceptionally high either. It's just that I couldn't see a specific type averaging giftedness. Maybe my estimates were too low. I think 120 means 'smart', 130 'gifted'....around 145 is the genius cutoff...then from there on you just get more 'special'.

[Subteigh]

I have an incredibly high IQ

oh really? Is that why you chastise it? So is this like, 'I hate snobby people who brag about their wealth but I love being wealthy' type of thing?

I was just saying that I feel no need to mention my incredibly high IQ - what would I gain from that...it would just be self-indulgence. I don't need to mention my incredibly high IQ at every possible opportunity any more then I need to talk about the incredible size of my penis or my Bugatti Veyron. I think it is far more important to talk about my talents, such as the ability to light my own farts without singeing any hairs - my talents are far more telling of my exceptional creativity than my IQ.

And an IQ of 130 or 120 is high, actually - you mind facists!

[Ms. Kensington]

lefty, INTp's statistically outdo INTj's. The abstract vision and algorithmic logic vs. the comparitive logic and abstract focus....I wrote a whole post and it got deleted, so I can't write it all again. Ni is just a 'smarter' function than Ti (when combined with Te) because of it's dynamic insight and ability to see the real underlying patterns.

the numbers couldn't be too low. 120 is top 10% and 125 is top 5%. If INTp's averaged 130, virtually every INTp you came across would be gifted.

and subterranean, I completely agree with you.

strrrng, PM me or write a shorter post about this here.

Carla: thanks for making me laugh.

[aestrivex]

this discussion is ridiculous. none of you have any evidence at all on what types have high IQs, and whatever shit you can pull out of your ass is not even slightly disguised as objective or legitimate.

[Logos]

this discussion is ridiculous. none of you have any evidence at all on what types have high IQs, and whatever shit you can pull out of your ass is not even slightly disguised as objective or legitimate.

Come now, the ridiculousness of this conversation is precisely the reason why we should encourage it.

[FDG]

Shut up everybody, you're all dumb and I'm a genius. Period.

Now seriously all the bullshit on how Ss perform better when there's rote memorization involved, that people that have good memories are generally not creative, bla bla bla...just take a peek at all the greatest geniuses of mankind, what do you see? They all had extraordinary memories. Now I understand how some of you may object that at the tails the marginals overlap even if their distributions are very different, but for the IQ claims of some forum members the tails should have been reached. Oh and international finance and macroecomics has a good point about grades and coolness. Having good grades was definitely a downer for getting dates in high school. Me and a friend elaborated a little model that showed the weigh of grades on the number of dates we had, and there was a coefficient of -0.4 for every step forward (from B to A). Luckily there was no memory thus only one month of bad grades would reset the negative coeff (basically grades at time t-1 did not influence dates at time t), still I distinctly remember how the exposure of my gpa at the end of hs gave me an entire summer of zero dates from every girl that knew it. I don't see what kind of incentive there was to study if that didn't bring me more sex.

fluid intelligence - as opposed to crystallized intelligence - is, to me, more important because it deals with solving new problems, given no knowledge. It is how creatively, quickly and acutely you can think, not what you memorized for a test.

Guess what, man? Fluid intelligence is highly favored in standardized tests as opposed to crystallized which is generally the domain of school. By the way if you can think quickly you can usually come to the conclusion that a person has "memorized" in the same time; moreover, this way you won't have to clutter your brain with seemingly useless information - I don't think it's useless but you may.

I think it depends on the college. I think any amount of rote learning will favor sensing types versus intuitive types. Taking notes, doing homework, etc were just something I had to struggle against in high school and college. Like 6 hours of homework per class per week, is absolutely insane. The amount of homework a chemical engineer, mechanical engineer, or a architect must do is highly challenging. Either you are interested in the subject or it just because mind numbing. I think as the ubiquitous of the college education has arose in the US, it has engendered a sensing bias at the undergraduate level.

Returns in homework execution speed generally follow a logistic curve, where for the first 1-2 months you see negligible gains, during the 2nd-4th the gains rise very fast, and then they start to mellow. Now if an average student decides to tackle an highly demanding engineering program then he's likely to be bound to have to waste his entire life doing homework. Yet an above average student, after a 1st year done well, is generally able to live off it for the next 2 years of undergrad that become even pleasurable. At least that's what I have seen in the engineering students around me.

[strrrng]

I was just saying that I feel no need to mention my incredibly high IQ - what would I gain from that...it would just be self-indulgence. I don't need to mention my incredibly high IQ at every possible opportunity any more then I need to talk about the incredible size of my penis or my Bugatti Veyron. I think it is far more important to talk about my talents, such as the ability to light my own farts without singeing any hairs - my talents are far more telling of my exceptional creativity than my IQ.

your 'incredibly high IQ' lol. If you didn't feel the need to mention it, you wouldn't have. but you did (earlier in the thread). So, what is your perception of this IQ of yours. And why did you have it tested if you didn't care?

oh, and what is your type?

[Subteigh]

I was just saying that I feel no need to mention my incredibly high IQ - what would I gain from that...it would just be self-indulgence. I don't need to mention my incredibly high IQ at every possible opportunity any more then I need to talk about the incredible size of my penis or my Bugatti Veyron. I think it is far more important to talk about my talents, such as the ability to light my own farts without singeing any hairs - my talents are far more telling of my exceptional creativity than my IQ.

your 'incredibly high IQ' lol. If you didn't feel the need to mention it, you wouldn't have. but you did (earlier in the thread). So, what is your perception of this IQ of yours. And why did you have it tested if you didn't care?

oh, and what is your type?

Look, I'm sorry that I inadvertently revealed that I had an incredibly high IQ one or two or three times - but as I say, my incredibly high IQ really isn't that important. I see my extreme humility and meekness as more important to reflecting who I am (as well as my ability to light my own farts...but I really don't want to come across as blowing my own trumpet so to speak).

[strrrng]

oh, ENTj, ok. It's cool. It's not wrong to say you're good if you are. but you say it isn't important, so did you decide to have it tested or did your parents have you tested as a kid?

and out of curiousity, given your description as incredibly high, what is it. you probably know more about the system than I do, so maybe you could explain what different scores really mean.