SEE to ILI: "we're going to have a relationship and you'll want to, because I won't ever give up until that happens"Originally Posted by reyn_til_runa
how do you distinguish betweendual-seeking for ILI and IEI?
SLE to IEI: "this is what we are going to do in your lives, because I am certain I know what we have to do, let's get moving"
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
i see. i would definitely doubt/resist against the latter. don't like to be told what to do in my life....and would certainly not want someone else responsible for planning my actions.SEE to ILI: "we're going to have a relationship and you'll want to, because I won't ever give up until that happens"how do you distinguish between
SLE to IEI: "this is what we are going to do in your lives, because I am certain I know what we have to do, let's get moving"
but i would be comforted by the former. the choice of whether to act is still mine but the energy/determination needed to bring me to the point of decision is being provided.
correct me if i've gotten the wrong distinction.
whenever the dog and i see each other we both stop where we are. we regard each other with a mixture of sadness and suspicion and then we feign indifference.
Jerry, The Zoo Story by Edward Albee
That's not exactly what I was getting at; I was trying to illustrate the difference between Se + Fi and Se + Ti.
Even in Se + Ti it's not about planning the actions, it's about "tactical implementation within an agreed-upon path".
so, how we get from point A to point B when A --> B has been decided by both of us. (IEI and SLE)
versus
how we get to point A when the point that follows A hasn't been decided yet. (ILI and SEE)
whenever the dog and i see each other we both stop where we are. we regard each other with a mixture of sadness and suspicion and then we feign indifference.
Jerry, The Zoo Story by Edward Albee
I am curious, Expat, how does the absence of Ni (& Ne) manifest in their relationship? or in any SLI-ESE relationship? How does it look like IRL?
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
Well, it looks like this -- in any given moment of their lives, it looks like they have it all together: a balanced budget, a very nice place to live, and they make the best of what they have. It works perfectly on a daily basis. But it also looks like they're sort of "stuck", like, they are also a bit unhappy in the routine but are not sure what. And the things that they do try in terms of "something bigger" seem unrealistic.
I am curious, Expat, how does the absence of Ni (& Ne) manifest in their relationship? or in any SLI-ESE relationship? How does it look like IRL?
The SLI was the breadwinner, and he was sort of "stuck" in that he could not see how he could do something else professionally, he was all in "that's what I have experience in". The ESE woman, on the other hand, had attempts at doing something different but then went for not very realistic things, that is, things that would be extremely unlikely to succeed, and only very seldom.
The thing is, I can imagine needing, and looking for, any of those functions in others. Maybe because I choose to approach this from the angle that every function can have value in my life if I let it and know its proper use for me.
I guess I'm fairly conscious of my dual-seeking function as long as I don't read threads like these and call my inner world into question. I suppose I can get along with anyone, and people in general tend to like me, if they can get past my aura of inapproachability. But I've always been drawn to strong people, but a strength tampered by something that feels like love and honor. Se + Fi? And the only things I can recall that ever put me in crisis had to do with my close relationships. There are factors that maybe don't relate to Socionics, but in general that area is all that has ever put me out of my game.
That being said, this reminds me of a quotte by Carl Jung:
"Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will guide your life and you will call it Fate."
And this, too, shall pass away.
ILI
I would say alot of the energy and eventual fruition of those functions is handled on a subconscious level moreso than a conscious one.
Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.
Very. I'm constantly talking/thinking about Ne (strange and unusual) stuff.
You know, when I'm not relaxing somewhere.
As we reach for the stars, we must put away childish things; gods, spirits and other phantasms of the brain. Reality is cruel and unforgiving, yet we must steel ourselves and secure the survival of our race through the unflinching pursuit of science and technology.
- Stellaris
Can Si dual-seeking, under stress, manifest in a sudden resistance to insignificant or concrete changes (furniture, your favorite show's opening, your residence etc.), excessive nostalgia and over-indulgence?
The ILE I know well is actually soothed by such things under stress. She loves it when people are elaborate in their homely tastes and can create something both comfortable and aesthetically pleasant. She enjoys discussing furniture suggestions and stuff. Last time we met she actually kept telling me about how she appreciates what her sister.in-law has done in her house and I was like .... meh. ok.
I guess so. Your comfortable with how things are so you don't want them to change?
I remember reading an IEE description that says they'll order the same thing over and over again at a restaurant because they're certain of its pleasant sensation, rather then try something new.
As we reach for the stars, we must put away childish things; gods, spirits and other phantasms of the brain. Reality is cruel and unforgiving, yet we must steel ourselves and secure the survival of our race through the unflinching pursuit of science and technology.
- Stellaris
Yes, to the nth degree. My friends often point out that I'm not willing to try new foods. This is also manifest in my other aesthetic tastes. For instance, I listen to the same genre of music. I've also heard that people with Si in their Super-Id block can periodically get fixated on their physical appearance, which is in contrast to their general nonchalance to it.
I usually notice that I'm attracted to Te when I watch videos like this. I'm not even thinking about my finances atm, yet I can listen to something like this for hours.
mah. they are just trying to sell his book. I love how vague they are what "research" they did. I don't really equate Te with scams.
I prefer Ni over Te. Ne and Ti is pretty cool too. just not all the time.
Eww, I'm gullible.
dual seeking function
where's the proof that your fourth function is your dual seeking function? do you think its evident in your life? do you think its quite that clearly defined? can you describe ways that you find your fourth function to be dual seeking?
Lefty
ENFJ
"I'm Sick of Old Men Dreaming Up Wars for Young Men To Die In," George McGovern.
fourth isn't dual-seeking, it's polr. 5th is dual seeking
There are very specific ways that I think my dual seeking comes out in my life. I absolutely love musicals and theatre. One of my favorite things to do at a production is to watch a particular person's face to see how they change their expression, especially when they're not the focal point of the scene. Another would be that sometimes I notice when I'm talking to someone and I tell them something not really important, I get disappointed that they didn't have a bigger reaction. Like they should visibly or verbally care more, even if they don't actually do anything.
I think there were more, but that's all I can remember for now.
I kind of see it as inside I feel like I have Se, I can find it in me if I look, and I like it... Outside, however, I rarely display it. So it seems strong in my imagination, but from the perspective of an outside observer it would appear weak or non-existent. Then there's the notion of being drawn to, interested in, or somehow admiring of Se in myself and others... Maybe Se is just admirable in general, maybe it can be readily confused with self-confidence (something that can be found in anyone)... but there's a difference between being self-confident and being self-possessed. Se is will, power, motivation, desire, possession, self-preservation, fire, that sort of thing... these are things I value, but that I don't display. It's almost like Ni-leading and Se-leading are inverses of one another (well they are), and are attracted to one-another as being opposite sides of a similar essence. I'll stop now.
How do you use/express your dual-seeking function?
This question is aimed toward the standalone, less oriented with your dual, use of the function.
So I'd like to hear some individual examples, and a generalized objective thesis would be ideal.
I think for IXEs it's taking frequent down times (that wind up barely working, so we take a lot of them), and also searching for things that switch our minds off.
At the very least in my case I play MMOs a lot to immerse myself in the numbers and the theory and the mind-numbing grind, but then wind up firing up my Ne anyway.
I'm sorry coolzon, you're going to have to make up for all the other types. They couldn't make the event this evening.
Fe is the reason INTjs use Ti. You never need a pragmatic plan (Ti) when you don't first want (Fe) something done.
What's interesting is that in Te/Fi types, the roles are reversed. To them there is first a very practical need to do something (Te), which defines a motivational attitude (Fi) as in "this must be done; it's a moral necessity".
You're talking about how the Te dominant's "ego" only defines something as ethical (Fi) if they are in that line of work in the first place? So how that looks for the other extroverts is that their dominant function is more selective (however that works) and that the introverted dual-seeking function is basically adapted to what it selects. That is understandable. It is also in my understanding that the introverted function had this perception of the information being constructed by its extroverted counterpart, but there is also importance of it's dual-seeking function, so how do you define the dual-seeking function's importance is basically that Ti and Te are similar because they're both logical, and that Ti is initially constructed for Fe because of values. Sure I could buy that. That is purely the technical explanation which discludes all of the personal reasoning and motivations of why, which aren't necessarily unable to be generalized.
Give praise where praise is due
Try to make others laugh
Smile alot. I've been told I smile alot, but its a nervous smile.
Generally I act warm and friendly with people, including those I just met.
Express enthusiasm about things
Usually I'm pretty calm and not easily angered but there has been the occasional time when my anger has boiled over and I just could not hold it in. Don't know how type related this is.
LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP
yeah I have two LII friends who also smile nervously. it's cute.
IEI-Fe 4w3
Einstein (
I (
LII-Ne
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
- Blair Houghton
Johari
Einstein is a well-accepted ILE amongst the Socionics community for a good reason. You may want to properly investigate the case.
Anyway, I realized that at times I may try to provoke an emotional reaction out of people. These provoked reactions are not necessarily meant to be negative or insulting reactions, but just representative of how the person may be feeling at that present moment. I can be insecure about the strength of an actual bond, and so I need a way to read the meters, so to speak. So gauging the emotions over a period of time is supposed to help me assert the strength of the bond. This is true even in cases in which the person verbally tells me of the bond.
Johari Box"Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
When you say "mental association", do you mean conjuring up funny memories to entertain yourself? If so, I do that as well a lot, when there's no humorous things going on around me, like at work.I (
IJ temperament
LII ()
LII-Ne
H-LII
Ni-LII
iei-LII
Enneagram: 5(w4?)
When i'm around someone who's using my dual seeking function, and I haven't been for a while, it can seem like it leaves a lingering impression on me for a couple of hours. It's like it's been woke up and stimulated, i'm aware of it's existance again, but then it fades and I need a fresh input.
Dual Seeking more than suggestive function
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before or it is already widely known, but I think dual seeking is more than just the Suggestive/Leading function.
What I've noticed is that SEEs and IEEs have caught my attention by speaking outloud on subjects they have not fully grasped. I become aware of their attempt to appear knowledgeable and thus I become attracted to them.
I think a person's HA acts as sort of a beacon for the creative function of the person's Illusionary/Mirage and Dual.
This would mean that there are at least three types a person can attract by being himself. All you have to do is speak up.
(i)NTFS
An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI
♫ 31.9FM KICE Radio ♫ *56K Warning*
My work on Inert/Contact subtypes
Socionics Visual Identification(V.I.) Database
Socionics Tests Database
Comprehensive List of Socionics Sites
Fidei Defensor
that's so funny. That's cool we can be rewarded for not knowing what the heck we are talking about though! I guess there really is charm in everything?
My ESFp ex used to do that often and I hated it! He'd take this false authoritative tone and add up lots of "evidence" that really made no sense.
But it's cute that someone likes this trait!
Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)
You Suggestive function
Why is it important to you? How does it affect you?
It seems as though I value this function highly. I am, myself a workaholic, but I'm a directionless worker. I work a lot on nothing, so to say. I have an idea of what I want to achieve, however, I don't don't know the most productive ways of doing them. I didn't use the random number generator to pick what I should do, or knew of any methods by which I could be super productive, until my LSE boyfriend told me what he does and these methods are what work. He measure how much work I've done, and whether this work is achieving my goal, namely in my business. I really do admire people who are productive, I don't like being told to be productive, like my mom does and God knows I love her with my soul. I like hints and advice in that direction, but I like to see and observe people be productive, not someone to activate that function in myself.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
OK, but how about let's break the function down a little, over lines of + and -. Octopus, given that your "main" suggestive element is beta Se, you want a victory that will secure freedom you have been denied in the name of Fi. You insist in your invincibility in the name of those who think to control you and oppress you. In the past you have been unfairly denied and this hurt deeply... it cost you knowledge that you needed, and opportunity. You sought to frame your opportunity in the lens of others' disenfranchisement, that you could take action to restore opportunity for yourself and others. Those who impede this action, who act in the name of eternal inequality to assuage the pain of their unfulfilled desires, are guilty of creating pain for others, so what is to keep you from acting against them?
That's my reading of the relationship between the vital and mental tracks, at least.
Last edited by tcaudilllg; 11-01-2011 at 01:28 PM.
I guess, at a personal level, it's always wishing for me to turn my mind towards things empirically and find out what truly makes the most sense by what is factually correct, to attune myself to the environment [of logical opinions and manifestations of others], which is more or less what people may relate to in any definition, but for me it seems quite essential and something I always take into account, and don't stray off to develop my own understanding. It's also apparent in what I look for in people when they make original arguments to show some proof or a grander scheme/logic for themselves, or else it's harder to take them seriously (with some opinions) at a personal level in the long run. But with any explanation I can easily be open to the interpretation, using Ne to develop trains of thought for a further source of external applicability, and ultimately waver on its validity. I may get lost logically and need an external anchor or vision for my current state of mind, or else I can get frustrated.
In this sense, Te doesn't always hold my own confidence like Fi and Ne always seem to do, because I am more wary of Te in my mind, open to various explanations, and I consider myself less confident when it comes to long term logical matters and cannot just develop "my own understanding" like any Ti valuer can more easily do. It must be rooted in the objectivity of others and make itself visible, make its presence known by a collective external manifestation.
I can easily read in between the lines with Fi and Ne, yet in a relational sense with Te, I desire more from others, even quite subconsciously. I want to in some sense secure my position of this function "given" to me, and explained to me, from some select sources I can trust, from people who have proven to me to be the most accurate, and ultimately comes down to what they pay attention to and how they word things and can make clarifications that match up confidently in my own experiences, and manifest something that can be taught to me that I can then use, because I'm always learning from others, how they come across to me and how they reason. Being an E4, I try to open myself internally, relate and become something of others, invest my current place in faith and see where it takes me.
After sitting hunched over my computer working on this or that (or just drifting aimlessly through the 20-odd manga I have in my reading queue, or some other distraction), it's refreshing and invigorating to go out early in the morning or late at night for a stroll.
Know I'm mistyped?
Why I am
Why I was
DISCLAIMER
The statements expressed in this signature may not necessarily reflect reality.
What is your overall experience?
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
