Saw the Motorcycle Diaries last night. Thought Che was INTP and his b-friend was ESFP. Anybody else seen the movie or, better yet, know of his activism?
Che Guevara
Saw the Motorcycle Diaries last night. Thought Che was INTP and his b-friend was ESFP. Anybody else seen the movie or, better yet, know of his activism?
Last edited by silke; 07-13-2018 at 11:40 PM. Reason: updated links
Beta quadra. Probably ENFj.
http://forum.socionix.com
I don't see what's so important about the possibility of extraterrestrial life. It's just more people to declare war on.
EVERYONE PLZ CONTINUE TO UPLOAD INFINITE AMOUNT OF PICS OF "CUTE" CATS AND PUPPIES. YOU KNOW WE GIVE A SHIT!!
I refer to the historical Che Guevara as I perceive him, not the one in the movie - -
I agree on the xxFj part.
But - and I think many will disagree - I think he was an ISFj.
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Originally Posted by implied
ISFj - NO WAY!
ENFP - Ethical Subtype.
In touch with semireality.
Yes, I was expecting such a reaction
I'll explain why I think he was ISFj - - just give me some time.
Here is how I arrived at the conclusion that Che Guevara was an ISFj/ESI:
1) His writings, especially his diaries:
Che Guevara always kept a diary when traveling, either just as student traveling through South America (before becoming a revolutionary, as shown in the movie) or, later, as a revolutionary, in the Congo and in Bolivia.
These diaries are factual, sequential descriptions of what happened during the day, whether about a simple travel, or when he was waging guerrila warfare in the jungles of Africa or South America.
So, throughout, he would sit down and write down what had happened during that day. He kept this habit up to the very day he was captured in Bolivia.
This is a man of routine, of habit, whose inclination is not to write about strategies, possibilities, alternatives, the future - he writes describing what happened during the day. Over many years. Under many circumstances.
He reminds me of the ESFjs I know who just love to relate in sequential detail what happened during their day.
He is not an intuitive. That is indication of a xSxj person.
His unfairly famous book, Guerrila Warfare, is not a book of ideas - he simply describes practical details of the war in Cuba itself, as if they could be applied everywhere else. Again a sensing type.
2) Stick to the methods you know
Castro and Guevara took over power when Batista's government collapsed. But he wasn't really toppled by them. But Guevara never seemed to grasp this, and he became convinced that what had "worked" in Cuba also had to "work" in the Congo, Angola, and Bolivia - that is the thought behind his book Guerrilla Warfare.
Only it didn't work - his activities in the Congo, Angola and Bolivia were miserable failures, and he seemed to refuse to accept that the circumstances there were different than in Cuba.
Again, this suggests a xSxj person, I'd say ISxj.
3) Hidden agenda: to believe
Not only regarding the example just cited above, as Minister of Industry, Guevara kept believing, against mounting evidence to the contrary, that he could transform Cuba into an industrial country very fast, because the "liberated" Cuban workers and peasants would be more committed and motivated than in capitalist countries.
Again, once he decided to believe in something, he would stick to it - regardless of the evidence.
4) A man driven by his strong (own) ethical feelings and principles
As shown in the movie - and historically correct - Guevara was just another middle-class student of medicine in Argentina until he crossed South America on a motorcycle, saw the extreme poverty and inequality there, and decided to "do something about it" - that is, become a revolutionary, joining Castro.
This is a man who only noticed South America's problems after driving through it on a motorcycle - had he never read a book about that? - again a sensing type.
This is a man who could make huge personal sacrifices according to his own personal ethics - a man able to give up a comfortable life in Buenos Aires to be a volunteer in Venezuela, and later to become a revolutionary.
A man who - as shown in the movie - would give all the money in his pocket to peasants he happened to meet on the way, and who, later, would give up positions of power and comfort in Cuba to try to make revolutions in Africa and Bolivia.
And a man who would later mercilessly shoot lots of people, including old acquaintances.
I see all of that as evidence of.
An ISFj, in particular, who is utterly convinced of the righteousness of his own ethics and morals, could well be merciless in killing "enemies of the people" if that would serve " a greater good" and if the "enemies of the people" had broken the ISFj's own ethics.
I see Che Guevara as clearly having strong, and the ISxj hidden agenda.
I can't see him as ESFp.
So my conclusion is ISFj.
Also his needs to attach himself to stronger figures -- he was never a strong leader in his own right, always attached to Fidel Castro.
Che Guevara's type
Ages ago I typed Che Guevara as ISFj based simply on (1) his very strong, even stubborn, personal ethics and beliefs - including that socialism would work, or that his guerrilla tactics would work in Africa or Bolivia - and (2) his personal habits of writing very detailed, narrative, factual diaries, no matter where he was, which I thought would be a xxSj thing.
Looking into quadra values, and at the risky decisions he took, I can understand why people would type him as Beta, more especifically ENFj.
Yet, I have difficulty seeing an ENFj having, since very young, a habit, even compulsion, to systematically write lengthy, narrative, sequential diary entries where there is very little discussion of ideas or projections. And an ENFj so stubbornly refusing to give up his beliefs.
So one solution seems ISTj, but then we are back at an ISTj "plunging into the unknown" instead of remaining in a secure life, first in Buenos Aires and then in Havana, once he had reached power.
Comments?
Re: Che Guevara's type
I have not read them. Are there references to the future at all such as how the revolution will be benefit future generations?
I can see this quite easily.
Re: Che Guevara's type
I'm not sure about "at all", but in as far as I recall they are mostly matter-of-fact descriptions of what happened.
On a second thought, you are right.
EDIT: Indeed, more prone to usethan
as merely the 8th function, Beta values - - I was thinking too much of ENFjs as being "intuitive", silly me.
ESFP for sure
Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.
Would you mind, for a change, making a case for this typing?
Sorry usually I am in a hurry when I type,
Well mainly VI, also his leadership style, not big on ideas but actions, moving from one place to the other, reminds me of a ESFP from Spain I went to school with, I am very sure about this.
Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.
I don't see Extraverts as stubborn, rather, they just don't seem to care to change their beliefs. Introverts I see as taking their beliefs personally (though they are constantly altering them themselves).
@Expat: what's this constant obssesion with Ne and open-mindedness? You keep on using it as a criteria, yet it doesn't seem reasonable to me.
Let me think about it and get back to you.
Probably yet another ENFj.
Socionics: XNFx
MBTI: INFJ
Ages ago I typed him as ISFj, which today I think is very unlikely.
I think he was ISTj. He had the habit, throughout his life, of writing diaries, as a very regular habit. His book Guerrilla Warfare is a sort of handbook to wage a guerrilla war, very detailed, as if the supposed lessons learned in Cuba could have applied elsewhere - which could not, but he wouldn't see that. Indication of
I disagree, he did have a cause, that of world revolution and communism.
I understand why so many would think ENFj for him; again, my main reason for thinking ISTj instead is his very spontaneous diary-writing. It wasn't a Si PoLR person writing those IMO.
I think he was ESFJ IMO.
Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.
I finished the Jon Lee Anderson biography a couple of months ago.
I'm pretty certain he's an ExTJ. His visionary style and future-orientation would suggest N rather than S, but it's difficult, because he's very pragmatic and down-to-earth. Extroverted over Introverted because of the way he speaks, writes, and acts. Thinking over Feeling because he could act in a very cold-blooded manner, and was happy to execute and punish. He completely preferred justice over mercy. Judging over Perceiving because of the fact that he planned rigorously most expeditions - if not every one - and rarely went into combat without a plan.
What makes it harder to type him is the fact that his childhood persona was HUGELY opposed to his adult one. He was more of an xSFP. And he was a lot more romantic, outwardly vein and showoffish. Admittedly driven by his passions, and a lot more playful. But what teen isn't like that.
Ezra -- you're thinking in MBTI terms, not Socionics ones. No problem with that, as long as it's clear.
Actually, after having read his biography, I think he was an ENTj. He did have the desire to help those in need and the dramatism of an ENFj, but he took on most of the general characteristics of an ENTj. He was aesthetically lacking like an ENTj. He also worked non-stop, day in, day out. His behaviour showed clear signs of that of Gamma quadra.
Can an ENTj be overly idealistic? He certainly had a world plan which seemed slightly too idealistic i.e. that which was implausible. Or is idealism more attributable to ENFj?
I want to add that my understanding of socionics has improved since then, I now think he was ISTj and NOT ISFj.
I can roll with that. It does make a certain amount of sense.
But how do you account for this sense of vision that he had? His forcefulness, decisiveness, and rigorousness, which would suggest ISTj. But if you take his visionary ideals in conjunction with this, it would suggest otherwise. Perhaps INTj.
I thought Guevara was LSI -- dual with Castro.
some socionics pages have him as one, but to my mind he is EIE. That´s how I see Ni vision with Fe ´group values´ when political interest is at stake. Manson or other commercial figures, if they really are are this type, they´re mock-EIEs if you ask me. Plus El Che VIs a bit like a EIE-Ni I know irl.
He could have been NF, but he was Positivist, and introverted.
why?!
First, for introversion:
The Argentine biographer, Hugo Gambini wrote: "Ernestito was not a simpatico boy with people. Has was, rather, sullen, very silent, introverted...."
From his Biography:
For positivism:Other sources, Cuban included, claim that as a boy Ernesto would often be found in a room full of chattering people, utterly silent, alone with his own thoughts or perhaps reading.
There's other quotes somewhere.... bear with me.Che’s unshakable faith in his beliefs was made even more powerful by his unusual combination of romantic passion and coldly analytical thought. This paradoxical blend was probably secret to the near-mystical stature he acquired, but seems also to be the source of his inherent weaknesses—hubris and naïveté. Gifted at perceiving and calculating strategy on a grand scale, yet at a remove, he seemed incapable of seeing the small, human elements that made up the larger picture, as evidenced by his disastrous choice of Masetti to lead the Argentine foco. There, and in Cuba, the Congo, and Bolivia, the men he believed in consistently failed him, and he consistently failed to understand how to alter the fundamental nature of others and get them to become “selfless fighters.” But along with his mistakes, what is most remembered about Che is his personal example, embodying faith, willpower and sacrifice.
This and only this.
it doesn't sound unfit for a Ni subtype of an extrotim : http://socionist.blogspot.de/2008/03...traverted.html.
His life-long values are not necessarily the ones of a typical introvert, if you think of it. Of course you are always going to find introverted types as well involved in politics and revolutions ..I just don't think someone's impression of Che as rather reserved is decisive for his not being EIE.
Great link, thanks.
I think part of the argument for Che being LSI is his cold efficiency and his detailed and practical solutions for guerilla warfare. He knew he wasn't the right character to lead the Cuban Revolution so he gladly subordinated himself to a more charismatic leader in Castro.
ISTj-Se so/sx
Looking through his own quotes and the documentary accounts of those who fought alongside with him, describing him as havinga "hands-on" approach in pushing operations forward and "rushing ahead" of others to the front line of battles, I'd say he prioritized Se over Ni. There are also numerous quotes where he takes on the role of speaking for some kind of invisible group using plural pronouns ("we", "our", etc.) which suggests social instinct first. By other accounts he didn't care for his own safety and hygiene, and tried to seduce every woman that came across him, so sx secondary falls into place. Fidel sounds sp/so and Ni>Se from that docu.
"Many will call me an adventurer — and that I am, only one of a different sort: one of those who risks his skin to prove his platitudes." — Che Guevara.
"The revolution is not an apple that falls when it is ripe. You have to make it fall." — Che Guevara.
Excerpts from documentary:
"We would get large infected mosquito bites on our legs. He [Che] would come over and take the scabs off and put powder on there. Men were pretty scared of being treated by him. They called him "doctor-sacamuelas" - tooth-puller. He was pretty rough. He was not known for his delicacy."
"Along with his doctor's duties, Che proves himself repeatedly on the battlefield. It's been said, in a more hands-on fashion than Fidel. "Che was a true model in front of us. While Fidel looked for a place of refuge to hide himself, Che was bare-chested. He always rushed to the front lines during battles." His willingness to confront death, to take life, to risk his own life came together to form a charisma that was highly unusual, which gave him an almost a legendary reputation and he emerged as a man that others feared and also respected and admired."
Edit: adding NA type to the mix.
Last edited by silke; 07-13-2018 at 11:43 PM.
Looking at this quotes by Che, would anyone agree that it sounds Fe dual seeking?
At the risk of seeming ridiculous, let me say that the true revolutionary is guided by a great feeling of love. It is impossible to think of a genuine revolutionary lacking this quality... We must strive every day so that this love of living humanity will be transformed into actual deeds, into acts that serve as examples, as a moving force.
noooooooo , he ain't the most EIE of all EIEs. He's his dual coz he ain't much drama and he didn't go there to talk people into changing the world, he stayed in and wrote.
He VIs Se dominant to me and more likely SLE than SEE.
Se-SLE
4w3-5w6-8w7
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
For the reasons Expat gave, I would actually say LSI. I think he adhered mercilessly to the Ti ideology and very much fits Beta.
Che Guevara, LSI
Fidel Castro, EIE
ILE "Searcher"
Socionics: ENTp
DCNH: Dominant--> perhaps Normalizing
Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
Astrological sign: Aquarius
To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.
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