What are the advantages to Si?

[aut0]

All the descriptions so far in this thread about Si are very bad.

The only requirements for something to be Si are:
It must be a system.
It must be something that can be personally manipulated.

Any system that fills those two requirements is Si.

It's possible to do your taxes, to program computers, to win maths competitions, to argue in a court of law, to make accurate budget plans and quite a lot of other things based on Si.

Si has certain advantages and certain problems in these issues, but I suggest you first start by trying to understand what it really is before you go that far.

WTF does doing taxes have to do with Si??? Taxes cause me stress, I do not "relax" by doing taxes. All that stupid crap you listed that could "possibly" related to Si, cause me stress. F that, that is not Si.

Si is about relaxing, someone who doesn't speak crazy correct me if I'm wrong.

[Smilingeyes]

All the descriptions so far in this thread about Si are very bad.

The only requirements for something to be Si are:
It must be a system.
It must be something that can be personally manipulated.

Any system that fills those two requirements is Si.

It's possible to do your taxes, to program computers, to win maths competitions, to argue in a court of law, to make accurate budget plans and quite a lot of other things based on Si.

Si has certain advantages and certain problems in these issues, but I suggest you first start by trying to understand what it really is before you go that far.

WTF does doing taxes have to do with Si??? Taxes cause me stress, I do not "relax" by doing taxes. All that stupid crap you listed that could "possibly" related to Si, cause me stress. F that, that is not Si.

Si is about relaxing, someone who doesn't speak crazy correct me if I'm wrong.

It's possible, though annoying to just read some instructions on how to file taxes, follow those instructions to the letter and notice that one has succeeded in filing taxes while using nothing but Te and Si. If after that, you continue to do the same thing each year, you will at some point stop using the original guide book and do the same thing you've always done with success. And voila, you've just done your taxes with nothing but Si.

It's obviously not for everyone, but realize this: having your taxes be done badly, is a great personal discomfort. It greatly improves my comfort level to do any important thing to the peak of perfection, so that no error, no matter how minuscule remains. Doing taxes = reducing discomfort.

[UDP]

we're just all 'round comfortable I guess

Have you hugged your Si today?

creatives like giving hugs, though ESE more so than LSE (Fe>Fi). Hugs are very important for LSEs, however, in terms of those which are able to hold and maintain its Fi confidence.

[Joy]

Ti can not personally manipulate the constructs it tries to. If it could, it would receive more feedback and be able to correct itself easily.

Ti receives its information through Ne or Se, and corrects/builds itself according to how that information fits into its existing system.

Ti says how things have to work.

Ti is about how things are. It is not dynamic, it is not about events or how things work.

(Te is about "what works".)

And none of you people still have any understanding over Si.

Everyone else, including Augusta, is wrong... and you are the only person who understands the truth? :wink:

It's just faulty to claim things like Ni = mathematics or Ti = mathematics or Fi = people.

agreed

[Creepy-bg]

we're just all 'round comfortable I guess

Have you hugged your Si today?

creatives like giving hugs, though ESE more so than LSE (Fe>Fi). Hugs are very important for LSEs, however, in terms of those which are able to hold and maintain its Fi confidence.

I guesss... I don't initiate hugs. But then I'm supposedly not creative am I

[leckysupport]

Si drives things like a beautifully decorated room, a wonderfully prepared meal, an aromatic scent, exquisite music, all to create a mood of comfort and relaxation. business realizes the benefit of focusing on this....when retail stores pay attention to this, people stay in the store longer and buy more.

Actually it makes me want to leave the store earlier This sort of thing annoys me.

You'd prefer it to smell like shit, lots of people shouting and bad food?

Seriously doubt it.

[Ezra]

Without Si there would have been no Epicurus.

In fact, imagine a world without Si. We would be living in caves in the jungle and would be catching our food.

[Creepy-bg]

(Te is about "what works".)

this is one your sillier pet ideas lately Joy... every function is about "what works" for it. try again, please.

[Joy]

All the descriptions so far in this thread about Si are very bad.

The only requirements for something to be Si are:
It must be a system.
It must be something that can be personally manipulated.

Any system that fills those two requirements is Si.

It's possible to do your taxes, to program computers, to win maths competitions, to argue in a court of law, to make accurate budget plans and quite a lot of other things based on Si.

Si has certain advantages and certain problems in these issues, but I suggest you first start by trying to understand what it really is before you go that far.

WTF does doing taxes have to do with Si??? Taxes cause me stress, I do not "relax" by doing taxes. All that stupid crap you listed that could "possibly" related to Si, cause me stress. F that, that is not Si.

Si is about relaxing, someone who doesn't speak crazy correct me if I'm wrong.

It's possible, though annoying to just read some instructions on how to file taxes, follow those instructions to the letter and notice that one has succeeded in filing taxes while using nothing but Te and Si. If after that, you continue to do the same thing each year, you will at some point stop using the original guide book and do the same thing you've always done with success. And voila, you've just done your taxes with nothing but Si.

It's obviously not for everyone, but realize this: having your taxes be done badly, is a great personal discomfort. It greatly improves my comfort level to do any important thing to the peak of perfection, so that no error, no matter how minuscule remains. Doing taxes = reducing discomfort.

Two things:

• Si isn't about that type of comfort. The type of comfort you're talking about is too abstract.
• Any type can file taxes. (though imo smart types hire someone to do it for them if they are not extremely knowledgeable about filing taxes)

[Gilly]

(Te is about "what works".)

this is one your sillier pet ideas lately Joy... every function is about "what works" for it. try again, please.

Yeah, I agree..."what works" may be a typical Te work method or whatever that you like, but it's certainly not a good way to define Te.

[Joy]

(Te is about "what works".)

this is one your sillier pet ideas lately Joy... every function is about "what works" for it. try again, please.

You're right, in a sense... just like every function is logical.

When I say that Te is about what works, it refers to the concept that Te is about efficiency and effectiveness. Rick's page on information elements describes it as "events (what, how, where), activity, behavior, algorithms". I've described it as "the outward characteristics of events; what works, how it works, what isn't working, and what would work better". That is why I sum it up by saying "what works". It's an inadequate definition, but it makes sense used with the definition of Te to sort of sum it up.

[Gilly]

You're throwing in a lot of things there, Joy. That could be a mix of Se, Si, Ne, Te, and Ti. "What would work better" is undeniably Ne.

[Ezra]

I think what Joy means when she says Te is about what works is not about what works for each individual but about what is the most effective method which can be utilised in order to complete any given task.

[Gilly]

That's still only a very small part of Te.

[Creepy-bg]

I don't get where this "Smilingeyes isn't being civil" thing comes from... I don't see it. Seems the same person to me, one of the more polite forum members, in fact, even when he disagrees with people.

[Smilingeyes]

Ti can not personally manipulate the constructs it tries to. If it could, it would receive more feedback and be able to correct itself easily.

Ti receives its information through Ne or Se, and corrects/builds itself according to how that information fits into its existing system.

Exactly. It's not direct knowledge. It's second-hand. It contains far more errors.

Ti says how things have to work.

Ti is about how things are. It is not dynamic, it is not about events or how things work.

(Te is about "what works".)

If those are your definitions, then you've got an interesting system of your very own.

And none of you people still have any understanding over Si.

Everyone else, including Augusta, is wrong... and you are the only person who understands the truth? :wink:

Is Augusta one of the people participating in this thread? Besides, ad hominem is not the correct way to find truth anyway.

Anyway, as for me being right about something... You might recognize this one: I just find it impossible to act with the assumption that I am wrong. (House)

[Smilingeyes]

Two things:
[list][*]Si isn't about that type of comfort. The type of comfort you're talking about is too abstract.

Really? See, my medical text books tend to say that people get stress reactions from waiting in lines, being afraid, going through divorce, being hounded by their boss, being too poor to pay their bills and not just from wounds and illness.
Frankly the problem here is that you've created an abstract Ni wall between one type of comfort and another, between one type of physical concrete action and another. Si is only any link between any external perceptions. That is the definition.

[Creepy-bg]

I don't get where this "Smilingeyes isn't being civil" thing comes from... I don't see it. Seems the same person to me, one of the more polite forum members, in fact, even when he disagrees with people.

three pages into a thread (only the second post of his no less), no major aversion on anyone's part against dealing with this or that piece of information reasonably. and he tells us what might as well amount to only being here for the sound of his own voice..

i'm not alone on this call either. (Gilly in Joy's thread, Smilex's own ESTj self-typing thread.) but i did just notice something: he appologized recently in the ESTj thread. i didn't know that situation resolved itself so well until just now. so maybe i am overreacting all things considered but i still think we can do a little better yet here..

MUST SANITIZE THE INTERNETS!!!! :wink:

whatever... I don't pay much attention to Smilingeyes (he's not on my radar) so I could be wrong, the little bits I catch of him here and there seem perfectly civil though, granted he doesn't kiss peoples asses or not speak his mind.

[Joy]

Two things:
[list][*]Si isn't about that type of comfort. The type of comfort you're talking about is too abstract.

Really? See, my medical text books tend to say that people get stress reactions from waiting in lines, being afraid, going through divorce, being hounded by their boss, being too poor to pay their bills and not just from wounds and illness.
Frankly the problem here is that you've created an abstract Ni wall between one type of comfort and another, between one type of physical concrete action and another. Si is only any link between any external perceptions. That is the definition.

You're taking another perspective though. Sure, the end result of the stress involved in not doing taxes may be Si discomfort, but that doesn't mean that doing taxes is Si.

I'm having a hard time not relating this to Ni/Se creatives, to be honest. Ni creatives would want to put off doing taxes until they have to be done. Se creatives would want them done right away because the Ne possibilities about things that could go wrong haunt them. They also have weak Ni, so they know that they don't have a clear understanding of when it HAS to be done and as a result want to just get it out of the way. If they don't, they may not get the taxes filed on time, and they shudder to think of all of the Ne possibilities that could result. Of course, you're right that not having taxes done creates stress which ends in Si discomfort... which is why the Ni creative is eternally (yet silently) grateful to the Se creative for getting (or insisting that they get) filing taxes out of the way.

[Joy]

I don't get where this "Smilingeyes isn't being civil" thing comes from... I don't see it. Seems the same person to me, one of the more polite forum members, in fact, even when he disagrees with people.

I don't think that Smilingeyes is being uncivil... a bit condescending perhaps, but that doesn't bother me.

You're throwing in a lot of things there, Joy. That could be a mix of Se, Si, Ne, Te, and Ti. "What would work better" is undeniably Ne.

"What other things could also work?" would be more of a Ne thing.

I think what Joy means when she says Te is about what works is not about what works for each individual but about what is the most effective method which can be utilised in order to complete any given task.

pretty much

[Joy]

Ti says how things have to work.

Ti is about how things are. It is not dynamic, it is not about events or how things work.

(Te is about "what works".)

If those are your definitions, then you've got an interesting system of your very own.

Those aren't definitions. I was just pointing out one of the differences between Ti and Te.

[FDG]

As usual Smilingeyes is perfectly right. How could anybody otherwise understand why ESTjs can ruin themselves by workaholism just as much as ENTjs (if not more), or how ISTps could not exercise for ages, or get addicted to exercise in a similar fashion? Those are all forms of the same basic entity. If I'm allowed to give a mathematical analogy, in an xyz axis they're all at the same level of z, just with different xy coordinates.

[liveandletlive]

Si drives things like a beautifully decorated room, a wonderfully prepared meal, an aromatic scent, exquisite music, all to create a mood of comfort and relaxation. business realizes the benefit of focusing on this....when retail stores pay attention to this, people stay in the store longer and buy more.

Actually it makes me want to leave the store earlier This sort of thing annoys me.

On the other hand -- I still remember when I was in a bookshop in central London, on the evening of a 31st December. Just before closing, they offered a glass of red wine to everyone present. That didn't annoy me at all, I found it very nice and pleasant (and not just because I like wine). Not sure how to explain it through functions, though. Some sort of Ni and Fi combination?

I have 2 possible explanations for that:

1) Either they were fulfilling your HA
2) Since you rarely use for yourself, it was nice that someone else was doing it for you for once.

I don't know just guessing... what do you think?

[liveandletlive]

As usual Smilingeyes is perfectly right. How could anybody otherwise understand why ESTjs can ruin themselves by workaholism just as much as ENTjs (if not more), or how ISTps could not exercise for ages, or get addicted to exercise in a similar fashion? Those are all forms of the same basic entity. If I'm allowed to give a mathematical analogy, in an xyz axis they're all at the same level of z, just with different xy coordinates.

i don't see how any of that justifies this though:

All the descriptions so far in this thread about Si are very bad.

The only requirements for something to be Si are:
It must be a system.
It must be something that can be personally manipulated.

Any system that fills those two requirements is Si.

I understand what he's trying to say that an individual makes a routine for themselves as odd and quirky as it may be (my ISTp friend only eats white food- eggs, bagels, bread, pasta, and chicken) just because it feels right to them and makes them feel all warm and fuzzy inside... am i getting it?

is what i disagree with, his definition. yes anecdotally i see a role for Si in workoholism but i think it is precisely because whatever system there is ceases to be conscious and to one's self the work becomes one habitual swoop. (perhaps why ESj's aren't known for creativity.) the existence of a system doesn't preclude Si, but i don't think it is necessary.

although taxes and exercises might suggest the mastery of a system into an Si habit, what about tasting ice cream? i mentioned that before because there's no apparent system there. perhaps moving the spoon but that's not the bulk of what the sensation relates to, a lot of it simply exists already as a hardwired response in the tastebuds etc. Si types frequently maximize these sensations regardless of systematization, is the only common thread i'm seeing anecdotally and in the dichotomies.

[aka-kitsune]

i would say maybe ESTj comes close though. (what i said about Te and long-run internal sensations.) and INj's more frequently perhaps too (hidden agenda.) ISTj is a tempting suggestion but sometimes they may be too stubborn to even consider relevant new information. SFj's in addition to being soft on T i think may frequently get themselves caught up in too many obligations and worries about those obligations to pay as much attention to their personal health. Np = lol and a lot of Se base types seem to stop giving a damn after their prime. no offense intended to any type though because surely strength in one area often comes at the expense of others. (for example, what i said about SFj's might be perceived by some people as an admirable sacrifice.)

OK... what? I know as an INFp, I'm supposed to have crap access to Si, but I personally really don't think so. I'm very aware of personal comfort and health issues. As well as being sensitive to "sense experiencing" (touch, smell, etc). Fabrics have to feel comfortable, ambient temp has to be moderate, etc. Don't like things too loud, too bright, too dark, (although nothing is ever "too quiet" for me). Any one of these factors can strongly affect my mood positively or negatively.

(I'd suspect is probably closest to enneagram self-preservation instinct.)

[Blaze]

i would say maybe ESTj comes close though. (what i said about Te and long-run internal sensations.) and INj's more frequently perhaps too (hidden agenda.) ISTj is a tempting suggestion but sometimes they may be too stubborn to even consider relevant new information. SFj's in addition to being soft on T i think may frequently get themselves caught up in too many obligations and worries about those obligations to pay as much attention to their personal health. Np = lol and a lot of Se base types seem to stop giving a damn after their prime. no offense intended to any type though because surely strength in one area often comes at the expense of others. (for example, what i said about SFj's might be perceived by some people as an admirable sacrifice.)

OK... what? I know as an INFp, I'm supposed to have crap access to Si, but I personally really don't think so. I'm very aware of personal comfort and health issues. As well as being sensitive to "sense experiencing" (touch, smell, etc). Fabrics have to feel comfortable, ambient temp has to be moderate, etc. Don't like things too loud, too bright, too dark, (although nothing is ever "too quiet" for me). Any one of these factors can strongly affect my mood positively or negatively.

(I'd suspect is probably closest to enneagram self-preservation instinct.)

FWIW this suggests Si dual seeking rather than Si role.

[Minde]

Interesting, ifmd95 said a lot of what I've been thinking. Not everything, but some. Especially the parts about needing civility to keep the inter-flow of information. Of course, you also need thick skin, because there are going to be disagreements, and you need to deal with that. Civilly. Anyway...

The only requirements for something to be Si are:
It must be a system.
It must be something that can be personally manipulated..

For clarity, then, what's a "system"?


Now, a question (for anyone/everyone):

Is the following an example of Ne and Si interaction?

I have a friend who I think is ESFj. Expat helped me type her quite awhile ago and I've seen no reason to doubt it. Anyway, one time she helped me set up the room where I'd be working for the next three months. Part of it included decorating. I wanted the paintings on the wall in a certain way, but I was a bit perplexed in how to get them up there. I had a ladder, hammer, and nails, but I sort of just stood there for a little, trying to work out in my mind the best way to do it - without falling and killing myself or, worse, damaging the paintings. In the middle of my thinking, she grabs the materials and prepares to put them up. Since I realized it was too late to try doing it myself, I began telling her exactly what I wanted and giving suggestions on how I thought what she was doing could be done better. Like, how to put the nails so they didn't damage the canvases. She good-humoredly took my advice. There were a couple of times where we disagreed, mainly on how to space them - we had different ideas of "balanced" - so I compromised with her on that.

This is typical of our interactions when doing something together. I'll give an idea of what we should do ("I want soup"), she'll start doing it and "assign" me something ("Here, stir this pot"), I'll give occasional questions/remarks on ways of doing it better ("Wouldn't it be better to stir with a spoon instead of a chopstick?"), she usually responds in the affirmative ("Ooh, good thinking!") even if it turns out I'm wrong, and when it's all done she usually tries to give me the greater portion even though she's the one who really did most of the work.

So, is this an example of Ne and Si interacting? Is she demonstrating Si toward me? Is it even socionically relevant?

I don't care who you are, the answers to these questions will help tell me where you're coming from.

[anndelise]

i would say maybe ESTj comes close though. (what i said about Te and long-run internal sensations.) and INj's more frequently perhaps too (hidden agenda.) ISTj is a tempting suggestion but sometimes they may be too stubborn to even consider relevant new information. SFj's in addition to being soft on T i think may frequently get themselves caught up in too many obligations and worries about those obligations to pay as much attention to their personal health. Np = lol and a lot of Se base types seem to stop giving a damn after their prime. no offense intended to any type though because surely strength in one area often comes at the expense of others. (for example, what i said about SFj's might be perceived by some people as an admirable sacrifice.)

OK... what? I know as an INFp, I'm supposed to have crap access to Si, but I personally really don't think so. I'm very aware of personal comfort and health issues. As well as being sensitive to "sense experiencing" (touch, smell, etc). Fabrics have to feel comfortable, ambient temp has to be moderate, etc. Don't like things too loud, too bright, too dark, (although nothing is ever "too quiet" for me). Any one of these factors can strongly affect my mood positively or negatively.

(I'd suspect is probably closest to enneagram self-preservation instinct.)

FWIW this suggests Si dual seeking rather than Si role.

I know an NiFe who is very sensitive to things such as smell, taste, touch, etc.
In fact, when it comes to cooking, he knows how to combine food and seasonings far better than my SiFe boyfriend.
However, this doesn't mean he's always picky about the foods he eats when others cook it...i mean, he won't eat just anything like my SiFe bf, but he's more picky when he's the one cooking for other people. He is picky about which clothes and bedding and shoes he will buy, making sure that they will be comfortable and that he won't have to spend any time at all caring for them or figuring out what will match what. He gets those aspects considered and taken care of when he buys them.
My SiFe bf isn't so picky about how clothes fit/feel. He wears jeans so any shirt he wears will work and so can just grab one out of the dark closet. Sensations seem to be just sensations to him...they don't have to carry a good/bad label to them.
However, he's (SiFe) really good when it comes to things like painting his gaming miniatures, making diagrams on excel or other programs. In fact, he gets downright picky on those types of things. One time he painted some one-legged stools for one of manta's teachers, and was freaking out because some lines had formed when the paint was drying. He wanted to redo the whole thing. But they could barely be seen...and even then only if one knew they were there. So I snagged them and took them out of his sight so he wouldn't be bugging out about how bad they looked.

[Expat]

Is the following an example of Ne and Si interaction?

I have a friend who I think is ESFj. Expat helped me type her quite awhile ago and I've seen no reason to doubt it. Anyway, one time she helped me set up the room where I'd be working for the next three months. Part of it included decorating. I wanted the paintings on the wall in a certain way, but I was a bit perplexed in how to get them up there. I had a ladder, hammer, and nails, but I sort of just stood there for a little, trying to work out in my mind the best way to do it - without falling and killing myself or, worse, damaging the paintings. In the middle of my thinking, she grabs the materials and prepares to put them up. Since I realized it was too late to try doing it myself, I began telling her exactly what I wanted and giving suggestions on how I thought what she was doing could be done better. Like, how to put the nails so they didn't damage the canvases. She good-humoredly took my advice. There were a couple of times where we disagreed, mainly on how to space them - we had different ideas of "balanced" - so I compromised with her on that.

This is typical of our interactions when doing something together. I'll give an idea of what we should do ("I want soup"), she'll start doing it and "assign" me something ("Here, stir this pot"), I'll give occasional questions/remarks on ways of doing it better ("Wouldn't it be better to stir with a spoon instead of a chopstick?"), she usually responds in the affirmative ("Ooh, good thinking!") even if it turns out I'm wrong, and when it's all done she usually tries to give me the greater portion even though she's the one who really did most of the work.

So, is this an example of Ne and Si interacting? Is she demonstrating Si toward me? Is it even socionically relevant?

I think it's a good example of Si - Ne caregiver infantile interacting, and my guess is that Slacker Mom would relate to what you described regarding her interactions with her ISTp husband.

[Slacker]

Yeah. We've actually had a similar situation with hanging pictures. I had some and I wanted them up and I got the stuff together to do it but I wasn't sure just exactly where to start with the project. It didn't occur to me that I would need a level to get them lined up properly. And then a few weeks ago we put a canopy over our daughter's bed and he said he didn't have time to help, but then he came in and saw me struggling with it and took over. He came in and checked on things after I asked him for power tools. He doesn't seem to trust me with power tools.

But yes the same general interaction:

I come up with an idea of something I want done
He either starts the project, or doesn't but then sees me working and takes over
I give suggestions as to how it might go more easily or be done differently
He gives me jobs to do to help but he's in charge of the project

[force my hand]

Nice avatar.

I love it too!

...tickle my pickle!

and it's wiggling.

[force my hand]

This post comes with a huge, honkin' disclaimer because it never fails that someone comes along and says, "no, that's not right at all."

My leading function (as I believe it to be ) is the freedom and right to tune my internal rhythm with any given surrounding. This could be out in the woods getting eaten by bugs, up on a podium giving a speech, sitting in a lecture hall taking notes, or at a table with lively conversation - it doesn't matter. All that matters is that my rhythm was allowed to adjust at its own pace. When I'm working and you're breathing down my neck, all that's keeping the hammer in my hand from going through your skull is the threat of an assault charge. Trying to 'break me out of my shell' with stupid questions? I DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT, OK? seems a lot like impressing on one's external surroundings some state of mind - seems reflexive in that what's happening internally constantly fluxes to accomodate the external... much the way synchros in a transmission moderate the discrepancy between the dynamic actions of the driver and the rigid operation of mechanical gears.

[Minde]

He doesn't seem to trust me with power tools.

I don't trust myself with power tools.

And, thank you, Slacker Mom and Expat, for your replies. They are helpful.

[Logos]

@ Joy: i agree Te is about what works. i would put it: how to do something so to achieve a particular goal, e.g. build a house. efficiency and effectiveness and the only criteria here and you wouldn't go by instruction in the case you are using pure Te but try to see how to do it to spend least money, effort, etc. to achieve it. so what works means just what actions to do in order to minimize effort, time, etc., or the criteria can be just to accomplish it, AS LONG AS IT IS DONE. did i catch your drift right?

Just as a supplementary point to this house analogy: Ti represents the blueprints of the house.

[liveandletlive]

OK so going off on another tangent with (sorry it really interests me- i live in a house with 6 other girls and all their perceiving functions are and except for me obviously):

- do you guys think that an type could be a drug abuser less likely/equally likely/ or more likely than an type?

[implied]

A non type-related reason would be self-medication.

why is this non type related?