my Te vs Ti explanation

[Joy]

This is from another thread, obviously. It didn't have much to do with the topic of that thread though, so I figured I'd copy and paste it here in case someone who's interested in discussing Ti vs. Te (but doesn't care about what I think of clubs) comes along.

Ti types DO care about "facts", btw. Probably more so than Te types. They fit information into their systems, and then that information becomes a "fact" to them until they have a good reason (that is, one that fits into their system, which again is just how they perceive and think about reality) to doubt it.

I get what you mean but strictly speaking this is untrue. INTj cares more about "facts" than ENTj, but ESTj cares more about "facts" than ISTj. The phenomenon Joy means here is real enough though, and very important. (I take it that you mean the point that static facts are universally important whereas dynamic facts are fleeting and so less important. If not, please correct me.)

Well, I think we have to define the context in which I use the term "facts" in order to understand each other here.

You were close when you mentioned static and dynamic, but I don't know that I'd use the term "universally important". Ti "facts" are considered by the Ti type as universally important, in a way. This is because those facts are part of a model, a system of understanding. Other parts of the his/her Ti structure are built upon existing parts of that structure, and future parts may be built upon any information that's accepted into the structure. Because Ti types understand what they're perceiving (via Ne or Se) through that structure, it's important to them that the information contained in the structure is correct. If it is incorrect, their understanding of their perceptions will be flawed and in order to remedy the situation by removing the incorrect information, the Ti type will have to remove parts of the system that don't fit once the incorrect information is removed and either discard them or reconstruct the system and fit them back in. For this reason, new information is carefully considered before building on it or truly accepting it. Once it is accepted, however, it is considered a fact "until they have a good reason (that is, one that fits into their system, which again is just how they perceive and think about reality) to doubt it". After all of the careful consideration that the Ti type has put into evaluating the information, it seems only natural to consider it a fact. After all, it fits into the rest of their understanding of... well, everything.

I must note that Ti isn't just about creating one's own systems/models/structures, however. It's also about seeing, understanding, and utilizing existing systems, such as hierarchy (or any other Ti system). Keep in mind that while Alpha Ti receives much of it's information by seeing Ne (or possibilities), Beta Ti receives much of its information by seeing Se (or strength/power/other external qualities). That is why Beta Ti is very practical and realistic (and is often confused with Te).

Te/Fi types, however, only value Ti systems in as far as it is useful to Te or Fi.

The idea of holding something as a FACT just seems inefficient to a Te type. They don't understand the world through their own system/models/structured understanding, they just see activity. They utilize external "facts" but don't really consider them FACTS. They're willing to change, accept other information, and reject previous "facts" if it is useful to do so. However, they care a lot about the reliability of the source of the information because they don't care to try fitting information into some complex system before they can utilize it. The less likely it is that the source of this information is incorrect, the better. (This is where a lot of Te vs. Ti conflicts come from... the Ti type says that something is a FACT and the Te type says "what's your source" and doesn't care about the Ti type's complex system or careful consideration before accepting that information.)

Te is about activity, behavior, and what works. Contrary to popular belief, Te utilizes outside information (from a source that is most likely correct/reliable) not because that's what defines Te, but simply because Te isn't Ti.

[Joy]

What's wrong, dee?

[Joy]

I got that, but why do you want to close down the thread?

[Joy]

Well, we already talked about this in another thread, so there's no reason for you to reply here. I posted this for people who didn't read the other thread, or who wanted to take the discussion about it in another direction.

[Ezra]

That is why Beta Ti is very practical and realistic (and is often confused with Te).

Interesting.

See, I have no time for all the systemisation of views. It is pointless to me. When I mentioned that I like to be organised to you Joy, I wasn't talking about in my little world of views carefully planned out - I was talking about in reality so that I can effectively manage tasks. I was talking about organisation of personal spaces, so that they're orderly; I am by no means the most organised in my thoughts.

[Ezra]

I was having an interesting conversation about global warming today. The guy I was talking to reckons it isn't happening, and that scientists are using way too much Ti, and not nearly enough Te. I agreed with him. Science (literally 'knowing') is about utilising Te and organising with Ti, not based solely on coming to conclusions via Ti alone. Te is the foundation of science.

[BLauritson]

i think tidiness and ordeliness is to do with both Si and Ti (do have to be valued). anyone?

It may be Si and/or Ti (I honestly don't know whether this is true or not) but I don't think valued is necessarily a requirement - I like to maintain a relatively tidy area around me as I feel physically uncomfortable in a mess. Probably due to super-ego Si I'd imagine.