The Fe Misconception

[Joy]

Maybe... (The following is a quick guess and has not been thoroughly thought through and carefully worded. You've been warned.)

An ESFj might say "how would YOU feel if blah blah blah" because they're concerned about the internal dynamics of that person... they don't want that person to experience negative emotion.

An ISFp... I don't know... I've never seen one say that.

An INFp wouldn't likely say that, but they may say something about how if you get that person upset, such and such will probably happen.

An ENFj might say "how would YOU feel if blah blah blah" because they're concerned about looking bad and they know that making you put yourself in that person's place may have the greatest effect on you.

An ESFp might say "how would YOU feel if blah blah blah" in a light or joking way.

An ISFj wouldn't say that because if they're going to lecture someone, they're more likely to say, "It's wrong to... " than "How would YOU feel... " as they are generally not very sympathetic to the feelings of random people. They care more about the right or wrongness of the action of saying/doing something than the emotional state of that person. They see one's emotional states as being their own responsibility.

An INFj wouldn't say that because they're not that confrontational.

An ENFp might say "how would YOU feel if blah blah blah" because of the reasons anndelise mentioned... they see a possible connection between whatever subject what brought up and that person's feelings.

(Yeah yeah, I know there's a good chance I'll get my head bitten off for this post. Too bad. I have already stated that it's difficult for me to effectively explain the manifestations of Fe and Fi.)

[anndelise]

*sigh*

When an Fi talks about ethics...it will be linked to the more individual and personalized connections. "You just dissed fat people in front of her, she's overweight, how do you think that just made her feel? Do you really think it didn't hurt her?" etc etc...they are trying to get you to see how the other person may have connected themselves to what was just said, or done, or other. (again, the connections the Fi makes vary due to personal experiences, personal beliefs, and personal values....leaving much room for Fi's to disagree with each other due to the effects of the variables.)

Okay this reminds me so much of my mom. "how would YOU feel if blah blah blah" She's constantly worried about hurting other people's feelings and how that might make her look to them. I am more interested in saying something that will make people laugh and contribute to the general emotional atmosphere than in making sure I don't offend someone. That sounds bad! It's not like I go around offending people all the time, but I don't constantly talk about how I shouldn't say this or that because it MIGHT offend someone or someone MIGHT think I'm inappropriate, the way my mother does. So is that a good example of me valuing Fe over Fi and my mom valuing Fi over Fe?

insufficient information
why are you saying things that will make people laugh?
what is it about getting people to laugh that attracts you?
What kind of general emotional atmosphere are you trying to create?
and why?
and what is it about that general emotional atmosphere that attracts you?
are you ok with offending people even accidently?
how do you feel when you offend someone?
how do you feel when someone accidently offends you?
how about if they purposefully set out to offend you?
what do you think of your mother when she asks you those questions?
what is it about your mothers questions do you think are ok?
which do you think are annoying?
are my questions annoying you?
are these the kinds of questions/thoughts you think about on a fairly regular basis?
are these the kinds of questions/thoughts you think you might need a little help with?
are these the kinds of questions/thoughts you find flat out annoying?
or are these the kinds of questions/thoughts that may mean something, but there are far more interesting things to discover about people?
if the last, what would those more interesting things be?

[redbaron]

Ugh, this thread is exhausting me. Just forget about it. I'm just trying to understand it, that's all.

My husband, who is ESFj would never say "how would you feel if blah blah blah". He has never said that, ever. My mother, on the other hand, who is INFj HAS said it. She wouldn't say it to a stranger for sure but she says stuff like that to her immediate family.

[anndelise]

Maybe... (The following is a quick guess and has not been thoroughly thought through and carefully worded. You've been warned.)

An ESFj might say "how would YOU feel if blah blah blah" because they're concerned about the internal dynamics of that person... they don't want that person to experience negative emotion.

An ISFp... I don't know... I've never seen one say that.

An INFp wouldn't likely say that, but they may say something about how if you get that person upset, such and such will probably happen.

An ENFj might say "how would YOU feel if blah blah blah" because they're concerned about looking bad and they know that making you put yourself in that person's place may have the greatest effect on you.

An ESFp might say "how would YOU feel if blah blah blah" in a light or joking way.

An ISFj wouldn't say that because if they're going to lecture someone, they're more likely to say, "It's wrong to... " than "How would YOU feel... "

An INFj wouldn't say that because they're not that confrontational.

An ENFp might say "how would YOU feel if blah blah blah" because of the reasons anndelise mentioned... they see a possible connection between whatever subject what brought up and that person's feelings.

(Yeah yeah, I know there's a good chance I'll get my head bitten off for this post. Too bad. I have already stated that it's difficult for me to effectively explain the manifestations of Fe and Fi.)

i won't analyze each one but I do agree that "how would you feel if blah blah blah" can have various reasons/motivations behind it..and that this could be due to type differences....and or learned behavior.
A person who's heard "how would you feel if..." throughout their life may turn around and start saying that question to others out of learned habituation. They may not even care about the answer and just say it. It could also be a...oh i forgot the term...a question where one isn't expecting an answer to. It could be a "point" phrased as a "question". etc etc

[Joy]

rhetorical?

[redbaron]

It could also be a...oh i forgot the term...a question where one isn't expecting an answer to. It could be a "point" phrased as a "question". etc etc

Rhetorical

[Joy]

Ugh, this thread is exhausting me. Just forget about it. I'm just trying to understand it, that's all.

My husband, who is ESFj would never say "how would you feel if blah blah blah". He has never said that, ever. My mother, on the other hand, who is INFj HAS said it. She wouldn't say it to a stranger for sure but she says stuff like that to her immediate family.

I could be wrong with my list, but not wanting to hurt people's feelings because you don't want to look bad is NOT a Fi trait. If your mom is INFj and she's said that for fear of what they'll think, it most likely has more to do with avoiding a confrontation with them than with not wanting to look bad.

[anndelise]

Ugh, this thread is exhausting me. Just forget about it. I'm just trying to understand it, that's all.

My husband, who is ESFj would never say "how would you feel if blah blah blah". He has never said that, ever. My mother, on the other hand, who is INFj HAS said it. She wouldn't say it to a stranger for sure but she says stuff like that to her immediate family.

the biggest point of all those questions wasn't so much your answers....but to show the kinds of thoughts/questions that almost constantly run through an Fi (at least Fip)'s mind.

If someone gives us a "fact"....we ask similar questions.
When we are learning a subject...these kinds of thoughts run through our minds (pertaining to the subject not necessarily a "person")
When we see a connection, we might try pointing at it, or arranging the "facts" to help point at the connection....but we can't specify the connection itself....defining it takes other skills.
For example, the questions I asked...had you gone through the process of attempting to answer them, would have placed you closer to an Fi frame of mind....and by doing so you might get a personalized understanding of the types of connections Fi deals with.

{note: It might be closer to an Fip frame of mind...I'm not really sure if Fij would be similar as well}

[anndelise]

It could also be a...oh i forgot the term...a question where one isn't expecting an answer to. It could be a "point" phrased as a "question". etc etc

Rhetorical

rhetorical?

yep, that's it, thank you

[redbaron]

Ugh, this thread is exhausting me. Just forget about it. I'm just trying to understand it, that's all.

My husband, who is ESFj would never say "how would you feel if blah blah blah". He has never said that, ever. My mother, on the other hand, who is INFj HAS said it. She wouldn't say it to a stranger for sure but she says stuff like that to her immediate family.

I could be wrong with my list, but not wanting to hurt people's feelings because you don't want to look bad is NOT a Fi trait. If your mom is INFj and she's said that for fear of what they'll think, it most likely has more to do with avoiding a confrontation with them than with not wanting to look bad.

okay. She does avoid confrontations. I wasn't trying to make Fi look bad, just thinking about how my mom and I are different. And of course it's all through my skewed perspective. She's a very kind and extremely nice person.

[redbaron]

Ugh, this thread is exhausting me. Just forget about it. I'm just trying to understand it, that's all.

My husband, who is ESFj would never say "how would you feel if blah blah blah". He has never said that, ever. My mother, on the other hand, who is INFj HAS said it. She wouldn't say it to a stranger for sure but she says stuff like that to her immediate family.

the biggest point of all those questions wasn't so much your answers....but to show the kinds of thoughts/questions that almost constantly run through an Fi (at least Fip)'s mind.

If someone gives us a "fact"....we ask similar questions.
When we are learning a subject...these kinds of thoughts run through our minds (pertaining to the subject not necessarily a "person")
When we see a connection, we might try pointing at it, or arranging the "facts" to help point at the connection....but we can't specify the connection itself....defining it takes other skills.
For example, the questions I asked...had you gone through the process of attempting to answer them, would have placed you closer to an Fi frame of mind....and by doing so you might get a personalized understanding of the types of connections Fi deals with.

{note: It might be closer to an Fip frame of mind...I'm not really sure if Fij would be similar as well}

Okay. So maybe I have less Fi than I think. When I read those questions, I felt like I was going to throw up.

[Joy]

I think those questions and answers are also a Ne + Fi thing.

[anndelise]

Okay. So maybe I have less Fi than I think. When I read those questions, I felt like I was going to throw up.

My NiFe brother seems to find these kinds of questions...sickening...to think about...as well.
And that's putting it nicely

With an NiFe...and according to model A...the Fi is supposedly unconscious. So like, you may be say or do things with these connections already in your head...just they aren't the types of questions you focus on in your conscious mind. And to think about them might force you to go into a different mental/emotional state than you prefer to be in.

Like when I make a conscious effort to utilize Fe...it puts me into ...an icky (for me)...state. It takes work that I just prefer to not have to deal with.

[anndelise]

I think those questions and answers are also a Ne + Fi thing.

I tried!!!
Se+Fi would be less abstract in the questions...and possibly even more personal.
Like, my daughter has to put a little effort to not associate these questions/connections only to herself.
Her normal state is how these things connect to HERself and HER interests, and HER objects/friends/etc.

[Subteigh]

I think those questions are rather interesting myself .

[redbaron]

Okay. Well I appreciate the time you've both taken to try to help me learn something about this. You've been pretty patient with my ignorance.

I'm going to get the kids to bed and then, without using any Fe or Fi whatsoever, knit a pair of socks in front of the tv.

[Ezra]

...

[Animal]

i'm bothered by this as i find it hard not to see some types as non-dramatic, non-emotional, or non-expressive quite a bit often.

yes, they generally ARE very non emotional with a robot like deep voice, but like if they find something funny then can easily produce a hearty laughter, sometimes or some people would sound like a drowning person though or rather a baby laughing.

What are you talking about? ENTjs are some of biggest the scenery chewers I know, especially the Ni-subtypes.

[implied]

well, even ISTps and their occasional pitch-fitteryness is "dramatic" sometimes. i guess i am saying that they do not seem non-energetic and (running the risk of sounding astralsilkyish, which may not be a bad thing) Fe and Te both seem like obvious "energies" to me. on the other hand, i have two friends (probably INFp and ENFj ) and they rarely raise their voices.

[XoX]

I'm personally a bit suspicious about you being Fi dual seeking. More likely you need Fe than Fi from other people but I can't know for sure without meeting you.

What do you mean? You mean you think I don't really want an EII or an ESI, and I want an EIE or an IEI instead?

Well yeah basically it would mean especially that EII and ESI don't seem to be perfect duals for you. I don't know you well enough to be sure but that is just the sense I get.

About the question "where is my Fe?". One way where I see potential Fe is the intense way you argue even the cases where you don't really have an argument but you are just stating your opinion. Your opinions in general have a component of passion and intensity in them even in seemingly non important issues. This kind of passion and intensity in everything (from little things to big things) could be a sign of Fe.

You also have a tendency to contradict yourself which I guess signifies weak Ti rather than strong Ti. For example you might passionately and intensely argue that anyone who tries to type someone online or argue against someone's self typing online is a pathetic asshole. But then you go and start a typing thread in order for people to type you online. Not only that but you go on and type other people online yourself against their self typing. For example telling dee that he can't have
Fe PoLR. And telling Expat that he is not enneagram 8 or that he is not ENTj. And so on. So you have intensity of opinion but lack in consistency of opinion. It might still point to Fe-dominant as I could see a Ti-dominant type help you be more consistent and sort of assist in directing your passion to right direction. I know creative Ti is not as consistent over time as leading Ti (only situationally consistent) so I can't rule out ESTp but I doubt you can be e.g. ISTj.

[cracka]

pitch-fitteryness

i like it.

[Logos]

*sigh*
Fi is pretty simple. It's the personalized relationships between items, people, concepts, objects, etc.

The most common example is the attraction/repulsion example. {note: repulsion doesn't have to be a strong feeling, nor hate, it could be a simple thought of...nah}
I like ice cream. (I am attracted to ice cream)
She doesn't like that house. (she is repulsed by that house)
He really wants that car. (he is attracted to that car)
I read that book and it brought up all sorts of negative feelings in me...but the one part I liked was ..blah blah blah. (reading book....repulsed repulsed repulsed....oooh, that looks interesting...repulsed repulsed, etc)
When an Fi asks you "do you like that?" "how does it make you feel?" "Is that something you could live with?" etc...they are checking to see what your personal relationship is to 'that'. It can include figuring out if you are more attracted to x than you are to y, and what is it about x that both attracts you as well as repulses you.

Another less commonly mentioned example is personalized connections (this one is a bit harder to differentiate between Fi and Ni...the thing to remember is that Ni deals with more abstract connections...but with the combination of Ni+Fe, it can give a similar sense of Fi).
I read this book and something about it reminded me of something my teacher said about ..blah blah blah.
This one is a bit harder to describe, because the mere act of attempting to do so forces one to draw on Ti. But it's a sense of how two concepts/objects are connected. By noticing that there is some undefined (in the person's mind) connection between X and Y and Z. But attempting to define it forces one to move away from the personalized sensing of it to make it either more abstract (separate from self) or concrete (external).
(again, remember, the connection is a personal connection, spontaneous and undefined. Not every Fi type will make the same connections due to variables in personal experiences, personal beliefs, and personal values.)

Fi doesn't itself place labels onto an emotion or experience beyond words that point to attract/repulse or connected/notconnected or similar/dissimar. To place a label on it is to view it as a concept..the concept of sadness, anger, frustration may incorporate attractions/repulsions from a thing or a circumstance...but Fi itself wouldn't treat it as a thing/concept/object...that's the job of a Xe function.

When an Fi talks about ethics...it will be linked to the more individual and personalized connections. "You just dissed fat people in front of her, she's overweight, how do you think that just made her feel? Do you really think it didn't hurt her?" etc etc...they are trying to get you to see how the other person may have connected themselves to what was just said, or done, or other. (again, the connections the Fi makes vary due to personal experiences, personal beliefs, and personal values....leaving much room for Fi's to disagree with each other due to the effects of the variables.)

So in your own words, using a similar style and structure as you did here, how would you then contrast Fi with Fe? What is Fe to you (and naturally try and avoid the insertion of your Fi bias)?

[anndelise]

So in your own words, using a similar style and structure as you did here, how would you then contrast Fi with Fe? What is Fe to you (and naturally try and avoid the insertion of your Fi bias)?

*sigh* Can we say "asking for a wee bit too much?"

My understandings of Fi come from my understandings of how it relates to me, fits in my life, fits my experiences, fits my observations, and fits things other Fi people have said about it, etc. You know…Fi.

Fe is not an ego function of mine, nor even a conscious function of mine. So do you even realize the amount of work and effort you are asking me to do to attempt to describe Fe from my own pov?

You're asking me to contrast/compare Fi and Fe…basically showing how they are similar/dissimilar….and to do so, I would have to Fi it. But you don't want an Fi bias. Ultimately, you want me to Ti the similarities/dissimilarities.

If I even attempt to describe Fe, it will automatically have not only an Fi bias…but I will then have to go into the crap I went through when regular Fe .."usage"… was my tool for survival. I'm not willing to relive that crap… not for this.

Besides, wouldn’t it be better to ask an Fe ego type what Fe is from their pov? (unfortunately, the isfps I know can't/won't do this…and the infps I know find it difficult to separate the Fe+Ni functions..i'm thinking this may have something to do with the static/dynamic thing?)

Sorry, I know it was a simple request to make..but it's a bit too much for me to do.

[Logos]

*sigh* Can we say "asking for a wee bit too much?"

Can I? Yes. Would I? No.

Fe is not an ego function of mine, nor even a conscious function of mine. So do you even realize the amount of work and effort you are asking me to do to attempt to describe
Fe from my own pov?

Yes.

My understandings of Fi come from my understandings of how it relates to me, fits in my life, fits my experiences, fits my observations, and fits things other Fi people have said about it, etc. You know…Fi.
...
You're asking me to contrast/compare Fi and Fe…basically showing how they are similar/dissimilar….and to do so, I would have to Fi it. But you don't want an Fi bias. Ultimately, you want me to Ti the similarities/dissimilarities.

If I even attempt to describe Fe, it will automatically have not only an Fi bias…but I will then have to go into the crap I went through when regular Fe .."usage"… was my tool for survival. I'm not willing to relive that crap… not for this.

So you know what constitutes Fi, but you do not know Fe? Can you not distinguish between the two? While I understand that it is hard to not insert your own Fi bias into the work, all I am asking for is more along the lines of keeping the "Fe is wrong or misguided" out of it.

Besides, wouldn’t it be better to ask an Fe ego type what Fe is from their pov? (unfortunately, the isfps I know can't/won't do this…and the infps I know find it difficult to separate the Fe+Ni functions..i'm thinking this may have something to do with the static/dynamic thing?)

Not when I am trying to distinguish not so much Fe from Fi, but how you define the difference between Fe and Fi. So I do not want you to compare and contrast, I just want the Fe separate, just like you seemed to separate the Fe from the Fi description.

[Ezra]

About the question "where is my Fe?". One way where I see potential Fe is the intense way you argue even the cases where you don't really have an argument but you are just stating your opinion. Your opinions in general have a component of passion and intensity in them even in seemingly non important issues. This kind of passion and intensity in everything (from little things to big things) could be a sign of Fe.

It's possible. Please tell me more about the passion concerning non-important issues though; I'd like to hear what you think is unimportant which I believe is worth arguing with passion about.

You also have a tendency to contradict yourself which I guess signifies weak Ti rather than strong Ti. For example you might passionately and intensely argue that anyone who tries to type someone online or argue against someone's self typing online is a pathetic asshole. But then you go and start a typing thread in order for people to type you online.

I never claimed someone who has typed themselves was a pathetic asshole. I have never even used a phrase close to that, nor have I insulted someone for making an effort to discover their type.

I have started two threads concerning my type in the past, the first of which was never resolved, which is why I began the second. I wanted to draw attention to the fact that my type was a loose end that needed tying up, and that I still wanted to do so.

Not only that but you go on and type other people online yourself against their self typing.

I offer suggestions, yes. I am not willing to accept anything at face value which cannot be 100% verifiable.

For example telling dee that he can't have Fe PoLR.

I said it was highly unlikely that he could have Fe PoLR. The evidence against his having Fe PoLR was overwhelming. Logically, the sensible position to take was to claim that he did not have Fe PoLR.

And telling Expat that he is not enneagram 8 or that he is not ENTj.

I have never claimed that Expat was not an LIE, nor that he was not an 8.. When my understanding of Se HA was poor, I asserted that one could not be an 8 and an LIE at the same time. I have since then been proven wrong.

And so on.

Perhaps not, thus far.

So you have intensity of opinion but lack in consistency of opinion.

My 'lack in consistency of opinion' is far more attributable to a lack of knowledge of socionics with which I can proficiently argue that to a true lack of consistency. Let me also point out that with learning, opinions change, and often they can change dramatically.

It might still point to Fe-dominant

It may, yes. However, this is highly unlikely.

I could see a Ti-dominant type [...] assist in directing your passion to right direction.

My passion is rightly directed thank you very much. I do not need anyone to help me direct anything. I can do this myself.

I know creative Ti is not as consistent over time as leading Ti (only situationally consistent) so I can't rule out ESTp but I doubt you can be e.g. ISTj.

This is unlikely, yes. I do not identify with Ti as a leading function, nor do I identify with the IJ temperament.

[Megan]

When people see someone who is emotionally expressive or speaks enthusiastically, they automatically think Fe. This is bullshit.

Keep this in mind.

I think this is important. Even when VI-ing, if a person smiles in a picture someone on the forum will type them an ego type. is not directly related to being emotionally expressive. EXFps in particular seem far more bubbbly and emotionally loud and effusive than EXFjs on average. There are also IXTps who are emotionally expressive at times, I know of them...they smile, they laugh really loudly and really enjoy an upbeat atmosphere. Then combined with looks very different from with . I think some people assume that extraverted feeling as a function somehow translates to "extraverting" ones feelings. I even doubt that this function is even about creating any type of atmosphere moreso than is. justs seems to be linked to some really silly stereotypes at the moment and I think even some of the socionics "experts" are to be blamed for this.

[discojoe]

Herzy identified well what Se was all about, and untangled the crap and the quality.

Now, I'm not going to do the same, because I'm not adequate in socionics knowledge enough to do so. However, one thing I do know is that people are often very wrong about Fe in the following respect.

What people get wrong about Fe is the way in which it manifests itself.

When people see someone who is emotionally expressive or speaks enthusiastically, they automatically think Fe. This is bullshit.

Keep this in mind.

Wow, way to not clarify anything or offer any insight.

[FDG]

When people see someone who is emotionally expressive or speaks enthusiastically, they automatically think Fe. This is bullshit.

So what function do you see that kind of activity more related to?

emotivist positivist (entj istj infp esfp)

[ScarlettLux]

When people see someone who is emotionally expressive or speaks enthusiastically, they automatically think Fe. This is bullshit.

So what function do you see that kind of activity more related to?

emotivist positivist (entj istj infp esfp)

VERY interesting!

So what would negativist emotivist do? Don't EIEs do this a lot as well as ESEs ... *confusion sets in*

[Joy]

Fe dominants are going to be emotionally expressive, too. The point here though is that they're not the only ones.

[aka-kitsune]

Okay. So maybe I have less Fi than I think. When I read those questions, I felt like I was going to throw up.

My NiFe brother seems to find these kinds of questions...sickening...to think about...as well.
And that's putting it nicely

With an NiFe...and according to model A...the Fi is supposedly unconscious. So like, you may be say or do things with these connections already in your head...just they aren't the types of questions you focus on in your conscious mind. And to think about them might force you to go into a different mental/emotional state than you prefer to be in.

I relate to that. It may just be that I'm not prepared for that mental state at the time.

Like when I make a conscious effort to utilize Fe...it puts me into ...an icky (for me)...state. It takes work that I just prefer to not have to deal with.

That's a perfect way to describe my reaction to questions like that too. They feel like an interrogation!

I don't think it's basic unwillingness to sit and pick apart my motivations, though. Perhaps it's just something I prefer to do in my own head in private or journalling. Don't like to directly reveal myself to that extent to another person, at least until I'm ready. It feels like being "found out" before I've had a chance to work through the ideas myself. I do use people as sounding boards for my dwelling on ramblings. But I rather dislike the feeling of someone probing my motivations before I'm prepared to examine them. Too much exposure that I'm not in control of.

[aka-kitsune]

My current thoughts just go back to Jung's definition:

F is the process of evaluation
The values for Fe would be like the objective usefulness of desirability of something in general (how important is it to others)
The values for Fi would be like the subjective usefulness or desirability of something (how important is it to me)

I don't find this helpful for socionics theory, personally, because IME, all of my "feeling" basically comes back to subjective desirability. I have little or no concept of "desirability in general". This seems to be more relevant to MBTI, where I'm an INFP and my leading function is actually Fi.

[Logos]

Fe dominants are going to be emotionally expressive, too. The point here though is that they're not the only ones.

Fi dominants are going to be concerned with close interpersonal relationships, too. The point here though is that they're not the only ones.

[Blaze]

i'm still a little confused on the differentiation between Fe and Fi. so i'll give it some Ti.

the person who wrote about attraction/repulsion/attitudes came closest to achieving definitions for me at least.

seems like Fe doesn't really care all that much about attraction/repulsion/attitudes, because these are things one cannot change. they're static. Fi cares about it...identifying it accurately and appropriately working around it i would think. and getting annoyed when others don't identify it accurately and act accordingly. goals can be achieved when the appropriate people, based upon appropriate relationships, have been identified.

people's mood and emotionality is subject to change, so Fe likes to manipulate that, hopefully for good. so Fe is dynamic, likes change, likes get the mood to change in some way. if the mood is appropriate, then goals can be achieved more easily in the Fe mind. Fi perhaps would assess more if the Fe is congruent with the Fi/relationships....and see a problem if there was a lack of congruence or discrepancy between the two.

ok, so:

Fe: dynamic, external, mood, expressed emotions. mood/conviviality as a requirement for people to work together toward achievement of goals.

Fi: static, internal, relations, implicit emotions. appropriate relations and personnel seen as instrumental in working toward goals.

[Blaze]

huh just had another thought on this.

seems like Fi doesn't believe in change. it is very difficult to change a relationship. people are what they are. they either like you or they don't. so in that sense Fi is correct. but it's kind of rigid. not to offend anybody or anything. i spose as an EP temperament i want to shake this up but can't (huh, maybe one root of Fi polr??)

like Fe tries to change the things it can. i can see why i value this a lot more.

[Ezra]

Herzy identified well what Se was all about, and untangled the crap and the quality.

Now, I'm not going to do the same, because I'm not adequate in socionics knowledge enough to do so. However, one thing I do know is that people are often very wrong about Fe in the following respect.

What people get wrong about Fe is the way in which it manifests itself.

When people see someone who is emotionally expressive or speaks enthusiastically, they automatically think Fe. This is bullshit.

Keep this in mind.

Wow, way to not clarify anything or offer any insight.

Fuck you you fucking fuck.

[redbaron]

i'm still a little confused on the differentiation between Fe and Fi. so i'll give it some Ti.

the person who wrote about attraction/repulsion/attitudes came closest to achieving definitions for me at least.

seems like Fe doesn't really care all that much about attraction/repulsion/attitudes, because these are things one cannot change. they're static. Fi cares about it...identifying it accurately and appropriately working around it i would think. and getting annoyed when others don't identify it accurately and act accordingly. goals can be achieved when the appropriate people, based upon appropriate relationships, have been identified.

people's mood and emotionality is subject to change, so Fe likes to manipulate that, hopefully for good. so Fe is dynamic, likes change, likes get the mood to change in some way. if the mood is appropriate, then goals can be achieved more easily in the Fe mind. Fi perhaps would assess more if the Fe is congruent with the Fi/relationships....and see a problem if there was a lack of congruence or discrepancy between the two.

ok, so:

Fe: dynamic, external, mood, expressed emotions. mood/conviviality as a requirement for people to work together toward achievement of goals.

Fi: static, internal, relations, implicit emotions. appropriate relations and personnel seen as instrumental in working toward goals.

Oh wow. The way you stated all of this helped me a LOT. I can totally see this how it could relate to static/dynamic. Thank you!

[Blaze]

thanks redbaron...i can't believe i make any sense! lol

[tcaudilllg]

Emotional expression is exertion . I do it very well actually, but it's circumstance-dependent and it's not easy to show on a forum.

We see ****** going into a "spaz", and think it's strong . But it's not, and our very ridicule of him is proof of this. ******'s enthusiastic expressions come off to us as out of control, as though he's having a tantrum. We can look at him and say, "how ever did people find it in their hearts to follow this madman!?" A strong argument may be made that his methods of expression do not show strength at all, but rather weakness and vulnerability.

dominants are very aware of what they and others are enthusiastic about; but there are dominants in existence who are uncomfortable creating emotion in others, therefore the identification of these individuals immediately disproves the overt expression = classical socionics hypothesis.

IM type goes no further than -awareness-. IM information may influence the form of emotional expression BUT IS NOT THE MEANS OF THE EXPRESSION ITSELF. Think about it: sometimes it is better to retrain the expression of one's own enthusiasm, something EIEs do very well.

[inumbra]

I am not comfortable with enthusiasm often times...