Socionics analysis of INFP and INFJ typelogic descriptions

[Expat]

That wouldn't be a very logical way to see it though. And I imagine if I went around the forum saying this that certain people might start debating it with me because when you break down each system (MBTI, Socionics) in a way like Expat did, the inconsistencies/confusions are everywhere. Logically they are not the same. Logically, it is perfectly conceivable for someone to be a different type in each. And if I were to go about arguing this, one reason people would likely start debating it is that I'd be getting at some notion I personally have about the types (I would have my own idea of them that somehow was compatible with both systems), and people would say "well it's great that you have this notion, but it isn't actually Socionics you're talking about."

Precisely.

Really, Socionics does not need MBTI or references to MBTI (MBTI is a separate theory of personality, even if it's a similar one). Socionics can stand on its own (as can MBTI). If one is trying to get at an all encompassing theory of personality then it might be relevant to look at both systems (among other things), but if one is just trying to understand Socionics, then it might be better to just look at it by itself without drawing MBTI into it. But the problem is that because there are so many similarities, confusion can arise between MBTI types and Socionics types (especially when people learned about MBTI first). If one doesn't get confused over the similarities, then they might get hung up on the differences.

Ditto.

I don't think that there is much point to looking into MBTI once you get socionics; the main, or only reasons why it keeps popping up here is that people (including myself) usually found it before socionics, and many of them, having understood MBTI to their satisfaction, are unwilling to start from scratch with socionics.

Either the systems are not entirely equivalent, which is why someone could be, say an XXXj in one and an XXXP in another; or the systems are equivalent in which case XXXj=XXXJ and XXXp=XXXP. If I had to go with one or the other explanation, I'd go with the former. And even if it is the former that is true (since the latter makes little sense to me), that doesn't mean that if you approximate each system enough they don't eventually "round" to being the same thing. As an analogy, you can round both 46.7 and 48.5 up to 50.0... but if you're exacting about it, 46.7 does not equal 48.5, and depending on what it is, that difference of 1.8 could be very important.

I think it's more complicated, and less systematic, than that. As I pointed out, I think XXXp = XXXP can work in some cases (as in ISFP and SEI) and not in others. But as I have said elsewhere, I think that the two systems have similarities enough to prevent the types from correlating in a totally chaotic way (it's not every likely that someone who types as INFP will be a SLE, for instance), but different enough to make any simplistic correlation futile.

[Expat]

ofcourse the argument ABCD = ABCd doesn't hold true for descriptions that are awful.

This typologic description is not a very good one, as has been proven by Expat.

But that is a cop-out argument, sorry. Is that the only answer that ABCD=ABCd proponents can give? "If it doesn't work, it's because the descriptions are awful?"

In that case it is fair to ask, then, which MBTI descriptions are not awful. You have mentioned those in The Art of Speed-Reading People. But those descriptions are the ones that are "awful" in my view, since they focus on superficialities.

Focusing only on the INFP and INFJ descriptions, not only typelogic but also personalitypage descriptions of those types, if analysed functionally, lead to INFP as EII >>> IEI and INFJ as not EII and more like Beta NF. I daresay that will be the case with many other online MBTI descriptions, and from Danielle's report of her experiences with MBTI professionals, also with more official MBTI material. If all of them are "awful", then there is a lot of "awful" descriptions around.

Jarno, is that your only answer? To simply say that any description that leads to a conclusion different from ABCD=ABCd is "awful" and to prefer superficial fluffy descriptions that barely touch on the person's deeper motivations?

[Expat]

The problem is this.

I have yet to see an INFP description which would make an EII go "no, that's not me" rather than "yep, that's me".

If you read Stratievskaya's descriptions, or socioscope's, and probably many others, I think an EII and an IEI can get this reaction much more quickly.

Now what Jarno seems to be saying is that "good descriptions" would be those that focus on superficial behavior traits and interests, steering clear from deeper personal motivations, which is what makes EIIs identify with INFP and not INFJ in descriptions such as typelogic's and personalitypage's (and, I repeat, probably many others).

So what are we left with? Descriptions that are limited to, in essence, put together the characteristics of I, N, F and P behavior? Obviously not, since the proponents of ABCD=ABCd also like descriptions that go deeper than that.

But which ones then? If those like typelogic and personalypage, which make EIIs go "I'm INFP!" are "awful", which MBTI descriptions truly convey the MBTI's types in a way as to make EIIs go "I'm INFJ!" apart from saying that the 4 dichotomies have to fit?

What I think is truly happening is that neither Jarno nor Phaedrus recognize that precisely the kind of insight given into the INFP's inner feelings as per the typelogic description is what make them the duals of the LSE rather than of the SLE. I think they don't see any point of going in that area, because they don't truly want to understand what goes inside people's minds and hearts.

[Phaedrus]

Not for fun, but to illustrate a point.

I have always been very explicit and stated that we should compare lots of type descriptions, since you can always criticize and find minor faults in any single one of them, even those coming from Socionics. But Expat insists on comparing them one to one, so I decided to make a comparison with Filatova's, partly because they are more readable in misutii's translation than for example Stratiyevskaya's or some other machine translated Russian type descriptions.

INFPs never seem to lose their sense of wonder. One might say they see life through rose-colored glasses. It's as though they live at the edge of a looking-glass world where mundane objects come to life, where flora and fauna take on near-human qualities. So far intuition generally, but "rose-colored glasses" suggests more Delta NF

So far and clearly IEI > EII. Compare this passage from Filatova:

A dreamer and romantic, IEI is easily separated from reality and taken away, by his thoughts, into the vastness of his dreams, where he scoops up happiness and ponders the meaning of his existence. He’s drawn towards novels containing fantasy and adventure. Here he participates, together with imaginary heroes, in his adventures. The IEI loves to give himself up, for long periods, dreaming. His dreams, as a rule, focus on something beautiful and elegant: the round-the-world journey aboard the comfortable ocean liner (alongside a refined public), the luxurious cottage with a fireplace and white piano, the excellent love… [...]

Introverted intuition in the leading bloc impedes others from observing the IEI, it is difficult to analyze his behaviour, and he is inclined to justify himself in everything. His tendency to ignore reality, and his difficulty in self-appraisal, can lead him to egocentrism and excessive indulgence in his own imagined world.

INFP children often exhibit this in a 'Calvin and Hobbes' fashion, switching from reality to fantasy and back again. With few exceptions, it is the NF child who readily develops imaginary playmates (as with Anne of Green Gables's "bookcase girlfriend"--her own reflection) and whose stuffed animals come to life like the Velveteen Rabbit and the Skin Horse:

"...Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don't matter at all, because once you are Real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand..." (the Skin Horse)
INFPs have the ability to see good in almost anyone or anything. Even for the most unlovable the INFP is wont to have pity. This is far more the typical Delta characteristic rather than the Beta .

We are not comparing quadras here, we are comparing type descriptions. So, Expat's comment is rather irrelevant. Let's see what Filatova says about the types IEI:

If he finds himself in a loving and understanding atmosphere his best qualities are revealed: the ability to be anxious and to lend moral support. Understanding the moods of those he cares about he attempts to improve such moods, is ready to manifest warmth and sympathy. [...]

He is capable of feeling deeply for others; for years he may remember and sympathize with his significant other even if relations have soured. Frequently his dreams provide others with romantic qualities, which may not actually exist in reality.

And while it is true that she says about the EIIs that they

often makes acquaintence with those that are weak or unhappy. These people serve to incite the desire to help, to support, and to comfort others, within her. To her others will frequently turn for help and she accepts them by examining their confessions for hours on end. She attempts to get accustomed to the psychological difficulties being experienced by the collocutor and she tries to take their side and support them.

it is also true that EIIs, in contrast to IEIs, are much more prone to criticize other people's ethics. The EIIs are not as unconditonally accepting as the IEIs. In comparison with the IEIs the EIIs tend to moralize and find faults -- both in themselves and in others:

As far back as youth the EII uses her imagination to form a certain moral ideal, which she then attempts to reach. At the foundation of this function frequently is found the development of a feeling of duty. Thus the smallest divergence in behaviour away from the ideal is dealt with severely, internally. This tendency towards self-perfection can itself become a tyrant. This tyranny of duty, in its extreme manifestations, can lead the EII to develop contempt for herself. It can also lead her to blame others when their behaviour fails to correspond with said representation of decency. This sort of maximization, which frequently characterizes itself in the EII’s youth can lead to confrontation with her contemporaries. Such confrontations are difficult tests, which weigh heavily upon her.

Since the moral norms she considers compulsory tend to be extremely high and difficult to live up to she may often respond by gradually increasing the permanent feeling of guilt, which stems from all her misdeeds. With difficulty she deposits herself towards these laws. She considers every failure in her life to be punishment for her inadvertence. This sense of guilt can accompany the EII throughout their entire life.

The accumulation of materials values and career success never supercede the EII’s goal of existence: to find their purpose, to make a life before it passes them by, to realize their talents. For their moral ideal they are willing to go to the “executioner’s bloc”. In the psychologically extreme situation they stick to their ideal. However, in ordinary situations EII prefers to leave states of conflict, assuming that kindness and decency are the best ways of deciding any misunderstandings.

Of course, not all of life is rosy, and INFPs are not exempt from the same disappointments and frustrations common to humanity. As INTPs tend to have a sense of failed competence, INFPs struggle with the issue of their own ethical perfection, e.g., performance of duty for the greater cause. (that is far more IJ than IP, more than )

I am inclined to agree with that. INFPs and IEIs should not be described in that misleading way.

An INFP friend describes the inner conflict as not good versus bad, but on a grand scale, Good vs. Evil. Luke Skywalker in Star Wars depicts this conflict in his struggle between the two sides of "The Force." Although the dark side must be reckoned with, the INFP believes that good ultimately triumphs. All this is sheer Delta and not Beta.

Irrelevant. The quadras should be left out of a comparison between the types IEI and EII. In general IEIs have a more positive outlook than EIIs, and it is more correct to say that IEIs are the believers in the ulitamate triumph of the good.

Some INFPs have a gift for taking technical information and putting it into layman's terms. Brendan Kehoe's Zen and the Art of the Internet is one example of this "de-jargoning" talent in action. Is that a characteristic of PoLR? Hardly.

The PoLR is totally irrelevant here. An IEIs "gift for taking technical information and putting it into layman's terms" doesn't have to be expressed in a format to be understood (except from in Expat's case perhaps). IEIs are often very gifted with language, and they are often highly skilled writers. They know how to tell a story.

Functional Analysis:

Introverted Feeling
INFPs live primarily in a rich inner world of introverted Feeling. Being inward-turning, the natural attraction is away from world and toward essence and ideal. This introversion of dominant Feeling, receiving its data from extraverted intuition, must be the source of the quixotic nature of these usually gentle beings. Feeling is caught in the approach- avoidance bind between concern both for people and for All Creatures Great and Small (is that a Se-dual seeking IEI?)

The view presented here is an aspect of , especially "the natural attraction is away from world and toward essence and ideal".

and a psycho-magnetic repulsion from the same. The "object," be it homo sapiens or a mere representation of an organism, is valued only to the degree that the object contains some measure of the inner Essence or greater Good. That is + )

No, it is not. It is more of the attitude.

Doing a good deed, for example, may provide intrinsic satisfaction which is only secondary to the greater good of striking a blow against Man's Inhumanity to Mankind. More of the same.

Indeed.

Extraverted iNtuition
Extraverted intuition faces outward, greeting the world on behalf of Feeling. What the observer usually sees is creativity with implied good will. Intuition spawns this type's philosophical bent and strengthens pattern perception. It combines as auxiliary with introverted Feeling and gives rise to unusual skill in both character development and fluency with language--a sound basis for the development of literary facility. If INTPs aspire to word mechanics, INFPs would be verbal artists. This does not really point either way.

Probably not.

Introverted Sensing
Sensing is introverted and often invisible. This stealth function in the third position gives INFPs a natural inclination toward absent- mindedness and other-worldliness, however, Feeling's strong people awareness provides a balancing, mitigating effect. This introverted Sensing is somewhat categorical, a subdued version of SJ sensing. In the third position, however, it is easily overridden by the stronger functions. Neither does this.

"[A] natural inclination toward absent-mindedness and other-worldliness" points to IP temperament with leading .

Extraverted Thinking
The INFP may turn to inferior extraverted Thinking for help in focusing on externals and for closure. INFPs can even masquerade in their ESTJ business suit, but not without expending considerable energy. The inferior, problematic nature of Extraverted Thinking is its lack of context and proportion. Single impersonal facts may loom large or attain higher priority than more salient principles which are all but overlooked. Does not mean much.

Probably not.

[Phaedrus]

Beneath the quiet exterior, INFJs hold deep convictions about the weightier matters of life. Those who are activists -- INFJs gravitate toward such a role -- are there for the cause, not for personal glory or political power.

INFJs are champions of the oppressed and downtrodden. They often are found in the wake of an emergency, rescuing those who are in acute distress. INFJs may fantasize about getting revenge on those who victimize the defenseless. The concept of 'poetic justice' is appealing to the INFJ. That doesn"t sound like an EII.

It surely does sound much more like an EII than an IEI anyway. (Check my comments on the INFP description in my previous post.)

"There's something rotten in Denmark." Accurately suspicious about others' motives, (are these EIIs?)

More so than IEI anyway. And clearly > .

INFJs are not easily led. These are the people that you can rarely fool any of the time. Though affable and sympathetic to most, INFJs are selective about their friends. Such a friendship is a symbiotic bond that transcends mere words. Ok this could go either way.

Perhaps.

INFJs have a knack for fluency in language and facility in communication. In addition, nonverbal sensitivity enables the INFJ to know and be known by others intimately. This does not point either way

Yes.

Writing, counseling, public service and even politics are areas where INFJs frequently find their niche.

Functional Analysis:

Introverted iNtuition
Introverted intuitives, INFJs enjoy a greater clarity of perception of inner, unconscious processes than all but their INTJ cousins. Just as SP types commune with the object and "live in the here and now" of the physical world, INFJs readily grasp the hidden psychological stimuli behind the more observable dynamics of behavior and affect. Their amazing ability to deduce the inner workings of the mind, will and emotions of others gives INFJs their reputation as prophets and seers. Unlike the confining, routinizing nature of introverted sensing, introverted intuition frees this type to act insightfully and spontaneously as unique solutions arise on an event by event basis. This sounds like Ni but then they are basing it on Jung.

Especially the explicit reference to prophets and seers is based on Jung's introverted intuitives, and I commented on that in a post about Danielle's type and David Keirsey's INFP Healer description. The other aspects mentioned here, describing the INFJs as some sort of "mind-readers", are also clearly mentioned in Keirsey's INFJ Counselor description. It is interesting that the INFJs ability here is compared to INTJs, because real life LIIs can show similar tendencies. LIIs and EIIs are similar in that respect and different from ILIs and IEIs, even though the two latter types have in common. It is not clear what the correct explanation is for this phenomenon.

Extraverted Feeling
Extraverted feeling, the auxiliary deciding function, expresses a range of emotion and opinions of, for and about people. INFJs, like many other FJ types, find themselves caught between the desire to express their wealth of feelings and moral conclusions about the actions and attitudes of others, and the awareness of the consequences of unbridled candor. Some vent the attending emotions in private, to trusted allies. Such confidants are chosen with care, for INFJs are well aware of the treachery that can reside in the hearts of mortals. This particular combination of introverted intuition and extraverted feeling provides INFJs with the raw material from which perceptive counselors are shaped. Goes against EII.

The bolded expression is an empty phrase. It doesn't tell us much.

Introverted Thinking
The INFJ's thinking is introverted, turned toward the subject. Perhaps it is when the INFJ's thinking function is operative that he is most aloof. A comrade might surmise that such detachment signals a disillusionment, that she has also been found lacking by the sardonic eye of this one who plumbs the depths of the human spirit. Experience suggests that such distancing is merely an indication that the seer is hard at work and focusing energy into this less efficient tertiary function. Means little.

Agreed.

Extraverted Sensing
INFJs are twice blessed with clarity of vision, both internal and external. Just as they possess inner vision which is drawn to the forms of the unconscious, they also have external sensing perception which readily takes hold of worldly objects. Sensing, however, is the weakest of the INFJ's arsenal and the most vulnerable. INFJs, like their fellow intuitives, may be so absorbed in intuitive perceiving that they become oblivious to physical reality. The INFJ under stress may fall prey to various forms of immediate gratification. Awareness of extraverted sensing is probably the source of the "SP wannabe" side of INFJs. Many yearn to live spontaneously; it's not uncommon for INFJ actors to take on an SP (often ESTP) role.

Doesn't tell us much, but "may be so absorbed in intuitive perceiving that they become oblivious to physical reality" suggests leading more than leading .

Even if we discount the functional bit -- is it any wonder that EIIs identify with INFP rather than INFJ here?

Yes. But it is no wonder that they can have a hard time deciding which type descriptions fit them better.

I think perhaps EIEs would identify most like the INFJ description.

I know a female EII who clearly identified with INFJ descriptions right from the start. I also know a male IEI who for a long time couldn't decide between the socionic type descriptions despite the fact that he could see rather clearly that he was an INFP in MBTT. Eventually, after much contemplation, reflection, and reading, he finally realized that he was an IEI and that he fitted the IEI type descriptions best after all.

[Ezra]

Phaedrus, are you not concerned that Expat's analysis blew your logic clean out of the water?

No, because it doesn't. If you take a closer look at what Expat actually says, you will see that he is not even contradicting what I say about the correlations between the types in Socionics and MBTT.

He is though. You think INFP = IEI. He shows how it is like EII. You think INFJ = EII. Expat shows how INFJ looks little like EII. Which would suggest that Ganin's conclusion (if not his reasoning) that IXXJ = Ixxp and IXXP = Ixxj could well be correct.

[Expat]

He is though. You think INFP = IEI. He shows how it is like EII. You think INFJ = EII. Expat shows how INFJ looks little like EII.

According to those descriptions I mentioned. The question is whether those descriptions, and others like it, truly represent MBTI concepts. If not, then I'd like to see which ones do.

Which would suggest that Ganin's conclusion (if not his reasoning) that IXXJ = Ixxp and IXXP = Ixxj could well be correct.

That was not my point at all, to make it clear again.

[Ezra]

According to those descriptions I mentioned. The question is whether those descriptions, and others like it, truly represent MBTI concepts. If not, then I'd like to see which ones do.

I think an experiment with an Extraverted type, like ENTJ or ESFP would be interesting.

Which would suggest that Ganin's conclusion (if not his reasoning) that IXXJ = Ixxp and IXXP = Ixxj could well be correct.

That was not my point at all, to make it clear again.

No, it was mine.

[Expat]

I think an experiment with an Extraverted type, like ENTJ or ESFP would be interesting.

Briefly, from typelogic (minus the functional descriptions):

Where's the party?" ESFPs love people, excitement, telling stories and having fun. The spontaneous, impulsive nature of this type is almost always entertaining. And ESFPs love to entertain -- on stage, at work, and/or at home. Social gatherings are an energy boost to these "people" people. That sounds more like an Alpha thing, with lots of Fe. However, is not incompatible with a SEE when having fun. Overall seems more SEI, though.

SPs sometimes think and talk in more of a spider-web approach. Several of my ESFP friends jump from thought to thought in mid-sentence, touching here or there in a manner that's almost incoherent to the listener, but will eventually cover the waterfront by skipping on impulse from one piece of information to another. It's really quite fascinating. That seems far more like Alpha Ne-loaded style of conversation when really "going".

New! ESFPs are attracted to new ideas, new fashions, new gadgets, new ______. Perhaps it's the newness of life that attracts ESFPs to elementary education, especially to preschool and kindergarten. Far more Alpha Ne than anything else.

ESFPs love to talk to people about people. Some of the most colorful storytellers are ESFPs. Their down-to-earth, often homespun wit reflects a mischievous benevolence. Does not say much, not incompatible with SEE.

Almost every ESFP loves to talk. Some can be identified by the twenty minute conversation required to ask or answer a simple factual question. Same. Sounds more like typical ESE behavior, but doesn't mean much

[Expat]

One reason for that is that that description seems heavily influenced by Jung's Extraverted Sensing type, which is a "fun-loving" kind of sensor but with no mention of the "territorial conquest" and "power pressure" aspect that Augusta saw as central to .

Now you see why there doesn't need to be a correlation at all, and why to use Jung's notions in socionics is tricky at best?

[inumbra]

Either the systems are not entirely equivalent, which is why someone could be, say an XXXj in one and an XXXP in another; or the systems are equivalent in which case XXXj=XXXJ and XXXp=XXXP. If I had to go with one or the other explanation, I'd go with the former. And even if it is the former that is true (since the latter makes little sense to me), that doesn't mean that if you approximate each system enough they don't eventually "round" to being the same thing. As an analogy, you can round both 46.7 and 48.5 up to 50.0... but if you're exacting about it, 46.7 does not equal 48.5, and depending on what it is, that difference of 1.8 could be very important.

I think it's more complicated, and less systematic, than that. As I pointed out, I think XXXp = XXXP can work in some cases (as in ISFP and SEI) and not in others. But as I have said elsewhere, I think that the two systems have similarities enough to prevent the types from correlating in a totally chaotic way (it's not every likely that someone who types as INFP will be a SLE, for instance), but different enough to make any simplistic correlation futile.

I understand. :-)