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Thread: Discusion of Ne PoLR in ISFjs and ISTjs

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    No. Ne polr means you get very frustrated when somebody jumps around topics too much instead of going deep into the Fi point you are trying to make. (lsi makes Fi points all the time with their role function, and esi with their ego function.) Ne & Fi fight all the time in this way.

    I don't see Ne polr without imagination/creativity or anything like that (that is more Ni polr - esp more in Te subtype lse) - but yeah if somebody is being way too idea-based (Ne is ideas) and not grounded in reality enough, it will really piss them off.

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    What you are describing in this and the other thread is pretty unlikely to be SLI.

    You are probably confusing an intuitive (Ne) and possibly ethical type, with SLI. IEE or EII Ne maybe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syrup View Post
    What you are describing in this and the other thread is pretty unlikely SLIs.

    You are probably confusing and intuitive (Ne) possibly ethical type, with SLI. IEE or EII Ne maybe.
    Could be. The person I considered SLI could as easily be EII, I mostly see Si and Fi. Why do you see her as unlikely to be SLI?

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    Quote Originally Posted by isptn View Post
    Could be. The person I considered SLI could as easily be EII, I mostly see Si and Fi. Why do you see her as unlikely to be SLI?
    Ne PoLR and Ne Seeking are both 1DNe. Which means that are in equal conditions in the level of use or performance.

    The only difference between both is that in one, Ne is valued and for the other is unvalued.

    So, Ne Seeking or Suggestive , as the words say, is stimulant, exciting and needed.
    While the PoLR causes pretty much the opposite reaction, its uninteresting, confusing and conflicting.

    That said, this:

    Meanwhile, SLIs do seem to worry and catastrophize sometimes, imagining things that could go wrong. They also seem interested in imagining what's out there in the world. The thing about wondering where all the cars on the freeway are going actually came from an SLI. She seems intrigued by all the possibilities and complexities,


    I could see a Fi and Ne doing the imagining others ppls lives part, while the worries and fears are not characteristic of Si and Te and Ne suggestive doesn't manifest in any of the ways described in the paragraph.

    Also an IEE told me once that he do exactly the same:wondering where all the cars on the freeway are going.

    What you described as food pickiness is not a characteristic of 4DSi either, since 4D is mastery. Being too peculiar in matters is often more present in 1D functions (even PoLR) since 1D means being experienced just in first person, without being able to adapt or use the function appropriately according situations considering the rest of external elements.

    Plus, most sensor types, especially Sensing lead are much more experiential, which is what you were describing in the other thread about the girl having ideas about stuff without any previous experience to support her decisions.
    Last edited by Akira; 12-14-2017 at 07:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syrup View Post
    Ne PoLR and Ne Seeking are both 1DNe. Which means that are in equal conditions in the level of use or performance.

    The only difference between both is that in one, Ne is valued and for the other is unvalued.

    So, Ne Seeking or Suggestive , as the words say, is stimulant, exciting and needed.
    While the PoLR causes pretty much the opposite reaction, its uninteresting, confusing and conflicting.

    That said, this:

    Meanwhile, SLIs do seem to worry and catastrophize sometimes, imagining things that could go wrong. They also seem interested in imagining what's out there in the world. The thing about wondering where all the cars on the freeway are going actually came from an SLI. She seems intrigued by all the possibilities and complexities,


    I could see a Fi and Ne doing the imagining others ppls lives part, while the worries and fears are not characteristic of Si and Te and Ne suggestive doesn't manifest in any of the ways described in the paragraph.

    Also an IEE told me once that he do exactly the same:wondering where all the cars on the freeway are going.

    What you described as food pickiness is not a characteristic of 4DSi either, since 4D is mastery. Being too peculiar in matters is often more present in 1D functions (even PoLR) since 1D means being experienced just in first person, without being able to adapt or use the function appropriately according situations considering the rest of external elements.

    Plus, most sensor types, especially Sensing lead are much more experiential, which is what you were describing in the other thread about the girl having ideas about stuff without any previous experience to support her decisions.
    I often thought, when I read 'post your favorite food stuff' as though it's an Si thing, it's really a bunch of N types fussing and failing over what makes a good dinner.

    Wrong thread a bit - just when you mentioned about the mastery thing.

    Si hidden agenda types have all sorts of weird concerns, worrying about the digestion system etc when they eat, of if they'll eat, it's almost a case for hypochondria ... not that i'm slapping conditions on PoLRs, just that it can become obsessive.

    Just like an SLI can become obsessive about forming bonds and being close to people, which I think is where all the SLI and pet obsession comes from, pets won't reject you - but then, they're not as interesting as people, but well, who knows haha.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syrup View Post
    Ne PoLR and Ne Seeking are both 1DNe. Which means that are in equal conditions in the level of use or performance.

    The only difference between both is that in one, Ne is valued and for the other is unvalued.

    So, Ne Seeking or Suggestive , as the words say, is stimulant, exciting and needed.
    While the PoLR causes pretty much the opposite reaction, its uninteresting, confusing and conflicting.

    That said, this:

    Meanwhile, SLIs do seem to worry and catastrophize sometimes, imagining things that could go wrong. They also seem interested in imagining what's out there in the world. The thing about wondering where all the cars on the freeway are going actually came from an SLI. She seems intrigued by all the possibilities and complexities,


    I could see a Fi and Ne doing the imagining others ppls lives part, while the worries and fears are not characteristic of Si and Te and Ne suggestive doesn't manifest in any of the ways described in the paragraph.

    Also an IEE told me once that he do exactly the same:wondering where all the cars on the freeway are going.

    What you described as food pickiness is not a characteristic of 4DSi either, since 4D is mastery. Being too peculiar in matters is often more present in 1D functions (even PoLR) since 1D means being experienced just in first person, without being able to adapt or use the function appropriately according situations considering the rest of external elements.

    Plus, most sensor types, especially Sensing lead are much more experiential, which is what you were describing in the other thread about the girl having ideas about stuff without any previous experience to support her decisions.
    Catastrophizing is characteristic of inferior Ne according to MBTI, which should roughly correspond to suggestive Ne, ideally (though not always, and not all will agree). The person I described fits the concept of Jung's introverted sensation type, MBTI's Si, as well as socionics' concept of Si, so I consider her an Si type in all systems.

    As I explained, she makes no indication that she actually imagines where the cars could be going. She simply said that she sometimes wonders, which seems to indicate a vague interest and awe in Ne but does not indicate that it's a strength. Meanwhile, she seems to be always aware of subtle sensations and takes action to adjust those sensations, including taking care of others' physical comfort. It does seem like mastery to me. She is so aware of sensations and past experiences and impressions of sensations that it seems she can easily imagine what a new, never experienced sensation might be like for her, from the impressions alone. As I explained in the other thread, I don't know if she would actually be considered a picky eater, it's just that her relation to sensations was so alien to me that I don't know what to make of it. She is focused on avoiding discomfort, whereas I tend to ignore or hardly notice it and will pretty much take whatever I get in terms of physical experience.

    She expresses Fi in a manner similar to her Ne, with a kind of awe or bafflement, and as if asking for input. For instance, she seems to be baffled about people's behaviors and wonders what must be going on that could make a person that way. She does not suggest ideas of her own regarding people's feelings and motivations, but poses it almost as a question. She gives the impression of someone who is vaguely interested in people and has difficulty understanding them, but tries or wants to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by isptn View Post
    I'm not sure I agree. Somehow I just don't see Ne PoLR types worrying about all the things that could have been or could be and wanting to consider multiple options. Meanwhile, SLIs do seem to worry and catastrophize sometimes, imagining things that could go wrong. They also seem interested in imagining what's out there in the world. The thing about wondering where all the cars on the freeway are going actually came from an SLI. She seems intrigued by all the possibilities and complexities, which she doesn't actually suggest herself but seems to wonder or ask for. My response to that was to say it sounded like it would be information overload.

    I don't know. At this point I'm sure I'm a Sensor, so I must be either Si or Se. I have not been finding Si at all relatable. But I don't know about Se either. But how you defined Ne Vulnerable doesn't sound different from what I described, especially sticking to what I know. I don't try to connect the dots or make guesses, I just stick with what I actually know.
    I'm not sure where you're getting these ideas from or what definitions you're using. Ne vulnerable types are able to *consider* different possibilities but they see them in a generally negative light - they prefer to "stay on track" using Ni, which limits possibilities. And Ni is of course about perceiving danger or negative consequences.

    Ne is about novelty, change, and new possibilities, so like @Syrup said, Ne valuing types are very much open to new possibilities and don't see them as negative like Ne vulnerable types do. The suggestive function is something you have a generally positive attitude towards.

    "Sticking with what you know" and not making guesses sounds like low or cautious Ne, whether valued or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    I'm not sure where you're getting these ideas from or what definitions you're using. Ne vulnerable types are able to *consider* different possibilities but they see them in a generally negative light - they prefer to "stay on track" using Ni, which limits possibilities. And Ni is of course about perceiving danger or negative consequences.

    Ne is about novelty, change, and new possibilities, so like @Syrup said, Ne valuing types are very much open to new possibilities and don't see them as negative like Ne vulnerable types do. The suggestive function is something you have a generally positive attitude towards.

    "Sticking with what you know" and not making guesses sounds like low or cautious Ne, whether valued or not.
    I'm kind of confused by your post because your first sentence implies you disagree with what I wrote, but the rest suggests you agree.

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    Suggestion: Don't take definitions from mbti to type ppl in socionics. You'll do typing process unnecesarily complicated and prone to mistype.

    Socionics have plenty of theory about IEs and detailed type descriptions from various authors.

    Finally, Si in mbti match hardly Si in socionics. Se in mbti take concepts which would be Si in socionics. So be aware of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syrup View Post
    Suggestion: Don't take definitions from mbti to type ppl in socionics. You'll do typing process unnecesarily complicated and prone to mistype.

    Socionics have plenty of theory about IEs and detailed type descriptions from various authors.

    Finally, Si in mbti match hardly Si in socionics. Se in mbti take concepts which would be Si in socionics. So be aware of it.
    Yeah, I'm aware of that. I just don't like the idea of there being two different versions of the functions, I feel like they are probably both attempts at describing the same thing. At its core, Si is introverted/subjective sensation, and that should exist separate from any and all attempts to describe it. That said, there are differences in the descriptions between MBTI and socionics that can't be ignored, hence why I say they should ideally correspond but that won't always be the case.

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    I would just try to forget about mbti entirely; I feel like people get too mixed up when they start to subconsciously bring in mbti concepts when considering socionics. even small inaccuracies start to compound themselves over time when that happens. socionics depends a lot on having relatively narrow construction of functions

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    Quote Originally Posted by isptn View Post
    Yeah, I'm aware of that. I just don't like the idea of there being two different versions of the functions, I feel like they are probably both attempts at describing the same thing. At its core, Si is introverted/subjective sensation, and that should exist separate from any and all attempts to describe it. That said, there are differences in the descriptions between MBTI and socionics that can't be ignored, hence why I say they should ideally correspond but that won't always be the case.
    I don't even know if sensation is the right word for the dichotomy.. I like what Socionics does in Russia/Ukraine etc, which is to call introverted sensing sensing, and to call extraverted sensing force, which is much more appropriate.

    But, we've got the labels that we have, and although they could be better, they're convenient enough.

    I suppose you could think of it like the word subway, it can mean the thing you eat or the thing you take a ride in underground, Socionics and MBTI are like this, different meanings for the same word etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Yeah, definitely. My LSI mother does this ALL the time. And feeling the need to lock your doors all the time when you live in a very safe suburb.
    My new roommate, ILE, is out of town for the week for a good reason, but she kinda told me about the plans for the trip in passing, nothing like the kind of formal telling that I would do... and we didnt have much of a goodbye cos she kinda shrugged it off ('Eh, I'll see you soon'; me thinking: 'er, in 5 days!').
    I had a passing idea to write her a little 'safe travels!' note by the coffee maker for her to see when she got up super early this AM to make the flight -- my EIE roommate last sem loved those gestures -- but nope, that's not what's called for here.
    Anyway, being Ne POLR, when it was just me in the house this morning I didn't trust that she was really, truly gone and not about to walk in the door again, having not heard or seen her departure and 'what if... flight gets canceled and she's back here?' So I just did a flight search (local airport is pretty small), figured out her route and checked the flight statuses to imprint in my brain- yes, she reached her destination, and won't be back til Friday.
    LOL...

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    So you want to keep secrets around alphas... wise move.


    It is probably not negative but more along the lines with "I refuse to be side tracked on terms of decision unless it provides very good rationale for the future." So ESI's are willing to corrupt informational integrity for their convictions while LSI's will not think about moves people might make in their ethical viscinity while they are conducting their operations.
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    >has a totally common problem that almost everyone experiences in their life
    >oh my god I would have never guessed that other people think/feel the same way about this

    meanwhile I'm sitting here thinking how it's very difficult to have totally unique thoughts that haven't been thought before by countless of other individuals on this planet, so I'm chasing that high of finding any form of discovery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dead account View Post
    >has a totally common problem that almost everyone experiences in their life
    >oh my god I would have never guessed that other people think/feel the same way about this
    "This advice/instruction manual is written in the general second person, addressed to 'you.' It's not personalized enough to me. I don't want to engage w/ it."


    Yeeeeah....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington View Post
    What are some examples of Ne polr?

    Something I was thinking might be Ne polr: An ISFj was trying to explain a situation by repeating facts a few times, and I responded, yes, I understand that but I interpreted that differently, which she did not seem to take well at all. I think that was an example of Ne polr.
    I think this is also in part Fi-Ti miscommunication. You weren't hearing or acknowledging receipt of the basics of their decision making (values) but switching to Ti framework. And they are fine with Ti, ime, unless you seem to be using it as an invalidator of their own framework for moving through life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spaciousfreedom View Post
    My new roommate, ILE, is out of town for the week for a good reason, but she kinda told me about the plans for the trip in passing, nothing like the kind of formal telling that I would do... and we didnt have much of a goodbye cos she kinda shrugged it off ('Eh, I'll see you soon'; me thinking: 'er, in 5 days!').
    I had a passing idea to write her a little 'safe travels!' note by the coffee maker for her to see when she got up super early this AM to make the flight -- my EIE roommate last sem loved those gestures -- but nope, that's not what's called for here.
    Anyway, being Ne POLR, when it was just me in the house this morning I didn't trust that she was really, truly gone and not about to walk in the door again, having not heard or seen her departure and 'what if... flight gets canceled and she's back here?' So I just did a flight search (local airport is pretty small), figured out her route and checked the flight statuses to imprint in my brain- yes, she reached her destination, and won't be back til Friday.
    LOL...
    God. ESI could really get feral LIE to communicate things like when we leave and stuff.

    I just left the house when I was really little one day because I figured out there was a world outside and thought it was fabulous and just ran. I might have still been in diapers. My EII mom lost her shit. I was so IN IT and so far away, she had to run back to the house to get the car to chase me down. She said I just looked like joy and freedom were shooting out of my face and was confused about why she was distressed that I was out for a run.

    I love that story.

    The ILE thing made more sense to me--just going, but afasomeone else thinking in snapshots and wanting to know which snapshot of time I'll be in and won't be in (which day I'm leaving or returning)...I can make myself communicate to them if it is then easier for them to plan their life that way. I'd de-feral for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    God. ESI could really get feral LIE to communicate things like when we leave and stuff.

    I just left the house when I was really little one day because I figured out there was a world outside and thought it was fabulous and just ran. I might have still been in diapers. My EII mom lost her shit. I was so IN IT and so far away, she had to run back to the house to get the car to chase me down. She said I just looked like joy and freedom were shooting out of my face and was confused about why she was distressed that I was out for a run.

    I love that story.

    The ILE thing made more sense to me--just going, but afasomeone else thinking in snapshots and wanting to know which snapshot of time I'll be in and won't be in (which day I'm leaving or returning)...I can make myself communicate to them if it is then easier for them to plan their life that way. I'd de-feral for that.
    HILARIOUS story.

    Oh yeah, ILE didn't even say which day she'd be back until I asked. Uuuuuuum.

    I appreciate the self-deprecation in calling yourself and LIEs feral. One wonders what an equivalent term of...endearment for us Ne PoLRs might be, but I don't think I should think get too attached to the idea of one. Someone in this thread mentioned that having Ne PoLR gives one an obscure sense of humor; I wonder if others would agree with that. Lack of Ne definitely means my jokes tend to be... niche.

    Hm.

    I'm so glad your mom found you -- 'joy and freedom were shooting out of your face' hahaha. That's a memorable description

    //
    Update: ILE texted a photo of her getting 2nd dose of vaccine (her reason for travel) to me and our landlord whom we're friendly with. I love seeing what I call signs of life from my intuitive friends...
    Last edited by spaciousfreedom; 01-26-2021 at 04:32 PM.

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