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Thread: Does this acccurately distinguish j and p

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    Default rationals/irrationals

    There are different things we can compare. For example: start and finish of doing someting (R)versus doing half way (IR). Doing many things at once (IR) or rather concentrating on one thing at a time (R).

    As regards to planning, INTJ might be happy not to do any plans just to have a free time and choose some fun acitivity whenever possible. But if you do make plan with INTJ and start changing it for no obvious reason, he will not like it because it does not give him stability/predictability.

    Socionics suggest that partners who differ on this dimension will have problems because of it. Irrationals also make plans. Who nowdays can exist without plans? But they act more upon their moods and easily change plans. They can have fun for a certian while and then at the last minute will turn the mounteens because they feel that the time has come to do so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo
    "In other words, Schedulers are judicious about schedules, Probers perceptive of options."

    This is not the same thing as my question, and I have explained this above.

    If you think it is the same thing, then the fault is yours, not mine.

    I think you are being the proud one.

    I can't find your explanation of how a schedule is not related to predictability and i must say i don't believe there can exist such an explanation while i still want you to provide one for the sake of the discution. You didn't answer my question about what my perception of J/P is. Also, why am i the proud one? You didn't explain why, you just thrown that back to me like you threw back to me the first thing i said about how you acted without any other explanation. Why do you make a habit of this? The reason i mentionned your pride is in case you wouldn't want to take account of the obvious relation between a schedule and predictability. It doesn't make sense to just say i'm the proud one. Actually you havent made much sense since the beginning of this tangential discution. In your next reply if you don't make more sense i won't reply, not because i want to be rude or something, but because answering on a forum takes time that i don't want to spend repeating the same things over and over, it's just boring so if you don't intend to put more argumentation, i suggest you just don't take your time for this neither, unless you think having the last word has any value which if is the case, i won't make too much of an issue of leaving you a currency i can't buy anything with. Of course you can also answer if you actually don't notice you don't even reply to points and at the same time you ignore this one. Now the decision of making a decent reply is yours.

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    I think other people understand what I say, but you don't. But if you don't understand what I say, I don't really care. I'm sure you're bright, but I don't care about that either. I'm trying to get somewhere with this discussion, but I feel you are holding the discussion back.

    To be honest, I don't want to get personal with you. I have other things on my mind.

    My intention is not to insult you, but the more we talk about this the more negative the discussion gets. So I think it's better that me and you don't talk about this any further.

    I'm sorry if I've offended you in any way.

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    A schedule is indeed related to predictability, but predictability is not necessarily related to a schedule. That is the difference here...

    I really like mystic sonics criterion, but perhaps it's not applicable in a general test for people without knowledge about socionics.

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    I agree.

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    Default The weakest link

    Just to ad a few words about INTJ type. As I said they like freedom and independence because the willpower is not their strongest point. They don't like to be pushed around and to be told what to do. Not to say that other types like it-nobody does! But other types might have stronger willpower and can easily stand for themselves.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Actually that makes me wonder, what is the definition of willpower in socionics? Are we fooled by words here, and using different definitions on willpower? I have a far stronger than average "willpower" in some instances, and a weaker one in some other circumstances.

    I guess I could elaborate on the schedule versus predictability aspect a little. Even though I am a rational type, I surely do not like schedules. In fact I loathe them and only make up very rough plans when needed. I also do not plans, and I am horrible at keeping track of when I should do certain mundane things as I am caught up with more interesting things But still, I will have to agree that I prefer if life on the whole would be farily predictable. In that way I do not have to bother to change my rough ideas of what to do, something which takes time and require work. I am not necessarily opposed to new situations, and I can often adapt fine, but if it becomes the rule, I will be bothered by it. I am good at improvising when faced with new situations, and like it, but only as long as it does not become the rule. In this cases it will bother and tire me.

    In this way, you can see that I am not a friend of schedules, but still on the whole prefer predictability, hence being opposed to schedules do not mean that do not like predictability. On the other hand, someone who likes schedules necessarily like predictability. I fear that the criteria used in tests are flawed as they essentialy test for the two opposites, the sensory rational type, and the extraverted intuitive irrational type. Rational intuitives are between these two extremes, and hence can't be typed by qestions such as "Do you make schedules" without sacrificing accuracy. How do the INXp:s feel about this?

    I have some more thougths about the mind as a whole, but I will save that for another thread, and let them mature for the time being.

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    People do like predictability on the whole: e.g. we need to know today and tomorrow that our environment is safe. The types who are bothered more than the others about predictability is those who weak on intuition they do not feel the existing opportunities/abilities of people as well as they find it difficult to see how things may develop in future.

    Willpower is and in chinese tradition it is associated with air. Intution is associated with fire.

    What type is Heimdallr? I am ISFJ.
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    INTj

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    Strastvuj ,Olga! That means hello, Olga, in Russian. Could you help me with my ISFj mom. I have hard times getting along with her and mainly caurse of emotionless nature of ISFj type. I can't stand also that she doesn't notice opportunities. She is very realistic and lives exactly in the presence. So, I can't find contact with her. I know that , if she would be dualized, I would not probably have this problem, but she is married to ISTj, so I can't make my self understandable to her. She want's concrete info, which I can't give to her. She is forcefull, instead of solveing problems with the dialog, she forces her oppinion and she doesn't like to hear anithing about her doing something wrong. There is no joy, caurse she doesn't reveal emotions and I never get appriciation, caurse she doesn't like to inspire others emotionally, she never shows proud for achievments I have made. How to get along with someone like that without arguing all the time?
    Semiotical process

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    Quote Originally Posted by male21
    Strastvuj ,Olga! That means hello, Olga, in Russian. Could you help me with my ISFj mom. I have hard times getting along with her and mainly caurse of emotionless nature of ISFj type. I can't stand also that she doesn't notice opportunities. She is very realistic and lives exactly in the presence. So, I can't find contact with her. I know that , if she would be dualized, I would not probably have this problem, but she is married to ISTj, so I can't make my self understandable to her. She want's concrete info, which I can't give to her. She is forcefull, instead of solveing problems with the dialog, she forces her oppinion and she doesn't like to hear anithing about her doing something wrong. There is no joy, caurse she doesn't reveal emotions and I never get appriciation, caurse she doesn't like to inspire others emotionally, she never shows proud for achievments I have made. How to get along with someone like that without arguing all the time?
    Ear plugs.

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    Default To Male 21

    I would be happy to help but I am not a master yet. I am still in the process of learning. You described the type very well though it was the description of a not very healthy person. The problem is not as such of a type but rather spiritual. If the people develop not in accordance with their life purpose (see in the book of Dan Millman: the life you were born to live. A guide to Finding your life purpose) they might feel resentful. They are closed in their minds and do not feel for the others.
    Ask her if she realy loves you? Does she know what love realy is?
    Did she love you when you were a little boy? Has not she been there for you whenever you needed her? What has changed since then? Say to her that little boy is still within you and he needs his mum's love. Say sorry that you might not fullfill all of her expectations, but you are her son and you love her as you always did.

    I have been rejected a few times in my life and had experince the same problem with my mum. She is ESTJ. I tried to reach her but could not, her soul was ill and she hurt me emotionally nearly constantly. To protect myself I started to use the same weapon what she used against me - I could manage her anger then. But the closeness was lost. Love is fragile as a flower and it takes two to care for it.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heimdallr
    A schedule is indeed related to predictability, but predictability is not necessarily related to a schedule. That is the difference here...
    A person that is a scheduler could still be a p type in Socionics. Just because he makes a schedule doesn't mean he doesn't strive to adapt to ever-changing situations. A p type in socionics that is a scheduler in the mbti sense does not get irritated by a change of circumstances that disrupt the original schedule. He will easily adapt.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by male21
    Strastvuj ,Olga! That means hello, Olga, in Russian. Could you help me with my ISFj mom. I have hard times getting along with her and mainly caurse of emotionless nature of ISFj type. I can't stand also that she doesn't notice opportunities. She is very realistic and lives exactly in the presence. So, I can't find contact with her. I know that , if she would be dualized, I would not probably have this problem, but she is married to ISTj, so I can't make my self understandable to her. She want's concrete info, which I can't give to her. She is forcefull, instead of solveing problems with the dialog, she forces her oppinion and she doesn't like to hear anithing about her doing something wrong. There is no joy, caurse she doesn't reveal emotions and I never get appriciation, caurse she doesn't like to inspire others emotionally, she never shows proud for achievments I have made. How to get along with someone like that without arguing all the time?
    .. I still think you are ILE.

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    [quote="Hugo"]A person that is a scheduler could still be a p type in Socionics.[quote]

    Scheduler doesn't mean "doing schedules", everybody can do schedules, it means "doing a schedule and following it".


    Now based on that obvious premise:

    Just because he makes a schedule doesn't mean he doesn't strive to adapt to ever-changing situations.
    That makes him a prober.

    And...

    A p type in socionics that is a scheduler in the mbti sense does not get irritated by a change of circumstances that disrupt the original schedule. He will easily adapt.
    That makes him a prober.


    I'm trying to get somewhere with this discussion, but I feel you are holding the discussion back.
    Why do you think i hold the discution back? My goal is to explain to you why your example doesn't fit and you don't accept my vision as valid but the point is that, i'm a perceiver, and i don't relate very well with your description of it. How can you overlook it? It's part of the data. The data is not from a theorical source, it's comes from reality, and i'm part of reality. Not acknowledging that implies making innacurate theories. Saying i'm holding the discution back is the same thing as saying i'm a liar or as being totally blind. Being a perceiver, my internal reaction depends on many factors when the course of action changes so i can't settle for your theorical vision of what happens in the head of a perceiver just because you're too proud (or are you too judger?) to adapt it, it just doesn't make sense. Theorically, the best answer for a perceiver if we take into account it's very nature is not to make him feel he fits with a definitive, judger type answer, it's to give him flexibility via the answer so that his developped sense of not committing to everything without reflexion about his perceptive nature (in order to be sure he won't become a deceiver (or a deceived)) won't be overlooked. This flexible type of answer will provoke a "that's me" smirk.


    So why do you think i hold the discution back? My take is that since what i'm trying is to make it advance, then it must be because you refuse to take account of my perceiver view of the problem, so YOU hold it back. If you really want to get somewhere with it, stop being so sure of what you haven't experienced. We both know that since you are a judger, you might overlook some actual facts to "save a theory", it already has been discussed on these forums before, so knowing that, why don't you only consider this piece of data? You're not into socionics to overlook what representatives of types have to say about their type caracteristics. It wouldn't make sense.


    Also, you still haven't answered my inquiry about what my perception of j/p is.


    Another question: Why am i the proud one, when all i do is adding pertinent remarks about my perceptiveness? I also figure you must've meant by that that you're not the proud one. Again, why that, when you refuse to adapt your theory to actual facts told by someone who actually lives what is being a perceiver and you make what, by the time you haven't answered the above question about my perception of j/p, seems like a false assumption to discredit the validity of my sayings?


    I think other people understand what I say, but you don't. But if you don't understand what I say
    My last question is: Why do you think not agreeing with your lack of precision means not understanding you, as you stated other people understand you but not me? I can tell you that i clearly understand everything you said, to the point i see where your errors are while you just thing i'm trolling, i guess you don't understand me and when one person doesn't understand the other, the two often have this impression. The difference is that you address my intentions instead of my points which is not a behaviour typical of those who really understand their interlocutor.

    So you have these questions pending:


    Why do you think i hold the discution back?

    Why am i the proud one?

    Why do you think i don't understand you?


    Now don't answer that while overlooking my entire post and arguments because it would really blow. You already ignored my points a couple of times, only stating what you think is true without any more explanation (unless we consider false assumptions about me as explanations, which can't be the case). I think eventually, everyone has to come to understand, so i gave another shot to explain what i mean. Just don't go ignoring my post another time without even trying. It's socionics, not individualonics.

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    I think that INTps think in a structured manner, because their dominant function predicts the future, including predicting people's behavior. However they easily adapt their thought to changes in the situation.

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    If I decided to do it, then I'd want to kill them for disturbing my action.

    If I hadn't decided to do anything, and left myself in a "just happening to do" state, then it wouldn't be a problem what-so-ever. And I wouldn't care if the action actually got done or not.

    Normally, if something like this happens I will tell the person what I'm doing ... and then I will do it. And get back to them after I've finished it.

    If someone tries to push me .. for a more complete answer - tries to rearrange my time line etc..

    Then I go... Well is this going to give me more benefit, than the previous action? How important are they to me? How necessary is it for me to attend to this. Could someone else do it better?

    And then I go .. FUCK .. smoke a cigarette, and replot out what I'm doing .. see if there's space - and if there is. Then I'll make space. And then do it.

    Except .. if it's like 8:30 pm. And I have to do something by 9:00 pm. And I'm already pushed for time. Then I'll just ignore them.

    If they get in my way, I'll tell them to fuck off. After I get back, I may explain the situation to them. Or I may just continue on with other things.

    Although I haven't decided if I'm a J or P yet. On tests I'm pretty close between the two.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo
    Quote Originally Posted by Heimdallr
    A schedule is indeed related to predictability, but predictability is not necessarily related to a schedule. That is the difference here...
    A person that is a scheduler could still be a p type in Socionics. Just because he makes a schedule doesn't mean he doesn't strive to adapt to ever-changing situations. A p type in socionics that is a scheduler in the mbti sense does not get irritated by a change of circumstances that disrupt the original schedule. He will easily adapt.
    It's one thing to get irritated, it's another to adapt.

    We all adapt. And we all get irritated to various degrees, when things change, depending on how much of a shock to the system they are.

    If I was to suddenly threaten your life, with a knife at your neck .. then you're going to get shocked whether you're a P or a J.

    The way I see it though - is that there are hard decisions, and soft decisions.

    If you can make changes to plans using soft decisions, it reduces irritation. But for anything major, that you have to realign your plans - hard decisions.. Concrete decisions. Then you're going to be pissed off, because you have to recalculate your plans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo
    ...but

    What do you think of this:

    When I intend to follow a course of action, and the circumstances change, thereby disrupting the course of action I intended to follow:

    - I (normally) feel bothered by it. I (mostly) strive for predictable situations. (j)

    - It doesn't (normally) bother me. I strive to adapt to ever-changing
    situations. I am spontaneous. (p)
    The thing here .. is that I can see both ...

    What I try to do is lay solid foundations, by striving for predictable situations ...

    So as that I can (not normally be bothered by, and) adapt to ever-changing situations, and be spontaneous.

    I'm always spontaneous. With solid directions, or without.

    I can either be working within a framework. Or I can make each individual thing be a framework of it's own.

    I don't really understand how you can have predictable situations, without adapting to changes. Otherwise the system won't work predictably.

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    Default P/j

    Well, I am J not P. I am rational. That is without some kind of planning I might feel lost in time and space. When I wake up I make priorities about what needs to be done todayor what am I going to do and if I forget to do it or will not manage - I will not be happy. I would feel as if I wasted time. Isn't it a rational thinking?

    My daughter P may do plans as well. But got disrupted by chatting, meeting friends. She didn't finish or did not manage to do her plan.
    She will not think she wasted her time - She had fun and that is more important for her. So she is the flexible one and I am fixed.

    Another important thing about predictability. If I need to do a time consuming work - I will start doing well in advance. Ther is no matter about my mood, wish and etc. That's need to be done and I am worried about the time, so I do it no matter what. I will concentrate on doing one thing after another rather than stoping half way and starting something new. Isn't it rational?
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by male21
    Is that picture, what Hugo is useing really he's picture?

    As I understand the rationals need to know what comes next, but the irrationals don't. I would say that the rationals need to plan their relationships with the people, but the irrationals want to co-work out the future, this might end up in discussions about the matter with out the decisions of real action.
    I like this.

    But what if you only need to know about specific topics? I don't think the modifier "usually" helps because if they are always about certain topics it is a matter of the kind of topic it is and not the frequency with which it occurs, which you wouldn't have control over.

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