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Thread: LIE-LSI Mirage/Illusionary relations (ISTj & ENTj)

  1. #41
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    I am an LIE male and I dated an LSI female for two years. I think she was first attracted to me because I was kind to a person whom no one else liked.

    I recognized her type immediately, knew that she'd be rational and easy to get along with, so I invited her out to dinner just to socialize. While we were sitting in the restaurant, she asked me what's my deal? I told her that I'm divorced and looking, but not looking for her. She got really insulted and said she felt like leaving the restaurant, but I said "Wait a minute. Don't tell me that you don't have a list of things you are looking for. If we got together, we'd like each other a lot, the sex would be terrific, and it would last three months."
    While she's thinking about this, the check comes, she watches me pay it without blinking (it was a very nice restaurant) and she thinks, "This guy isn't cheap, he's not bad looking, and there's something about him (Mirage, if you were wondering). In three months, I think I can change his mind."
    Well, it lasted two years because Mirage has its good points, but eventually the constant misunderstandings got to be too much for me and I ended it.

    So yesterday, I was talking to this 31 year old LIE about business and how to make money and navigate the business world, and the talk got around to business vs home life and raising kids, and he said his wife is an airline pilot and makes a high income, so if they have kids, it is likely that he will become a house husband. Which he was OK with. He showed me a picture of himself and his wife. He looked deliriously happy and she VI'd LSI. (Hey, the sex and emotional support between LIE and LSI can be very, very good.)

    Alarm bells started to go off in my head. I asked him if she's very logical and he said "Yes, how did you know?"
    I asked him if she liked to go to the theater, and again he said yes.
    Does she like it when you really show her how you feel about her, like when you really express your emotions?
    Yes, again.
    I said, "I had a GF like that for a while. She and I got along great emotionally, but we had a hard time agreeing on how to work together. Even on short term, daily projects, we clashed, to say nothing about trying to make long range plans."
    "Yes! That's exactly how my wife and I are. We can't agree on anything. Not even something simple, like where we're going to eat."

    At this point, I was regretting the fact that I opened my mouth and decided to bring this convo to a halt. Some people can last in a relationship and be very happy for many, many years. It all depends on what you are willing to put up with and how much compromise you are willing to make, and I think my friend is pretty happy with his prospects and doesn't need to have someone plant any seeds of possible discord in his life by pointing him toward Stratiyevskaya's analysis of LIE-LSI relations.

    I told him that my GF liked it when I expressed my desire for her very openly and I never lied to her, not in the slightest. I hope that helps him a bit.

    I clearly need to keep my mouth shut about this socionics stuff.

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    Most of these relationships seem to work well although the ISTjs seemed to do the lion's share of the grunt work while the ENTjs determine direction and goals. However, relationships will only work when there's a distinct division of roles and power. The ENTjs would have to let the ISTjs do it their own ways (no micromanagement) while the ISTjs have to understand, accept and deliver what the ENTjs want. ENTjs seem somewhat impressed by people who can do practical things for them and ISTjs usually have that in spades.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Most of these relationships seem to work well although the ISTjs seemed to do the lion's share of the grunt work while the ENTjs determine direction and goals. However, relationships will only work when there's a distinct division of roles and power. The ENTjs would have to let the ISTjs do it their own ways (no micromanagement) while the ISTjs have to understand, accept and deliver what the ENTjs want. ENTjs seem somewhat impressed by people who can do practical things for them and ISTjs usually have that in spades.

    a.k.a. I/O
    Actually, @Rebelondeck, my relationship with the LSI was kind of the reverse of that (re: grunt work vs goals). I (the LIE) provided financial support and fixed things around her house. She suggested things to do on the weekends (which was practically the only time when I was there), like day trips to museums, walks in the woods, or classical concerts. She also cooked (and she was a fantastic cook - one of those naturals who improves the food while she's cooking it, while I can barely follow a recipe) and she was unfailingly emotionally supportive.

    Initially, we clashed on how to do every little thing, but we very quickly converged on a separation of roles for every day activities. Where we completely disagreed was in long range goals.

    And yes, I agree that I did absolutely zero micromanaging and she did understand what I wanted. Mostly.

    I need to stop thinking about this. Otherwise I'm too likely to pick up the phone and call her.

    To paraphrase, "the good that we had lives after our relationships. The evil is oft interred with their bones."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    ........Actually, @Rebelondeck, my relationship with the LSI was kind of the reverse of that (re: grunt work vs goals).........
    I can see that generating a bit of a problem. I don't see you providing a lion's share if you were only available weekends; note that money isn't work. What does she do without you - I would assume that she's surviving? Both of you likely habituated into overlapping role patterns because of history and some of those are hard to undo......

    a.k.a I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Actually, @Rebelondeck, my relationship with the LSI was kind of the reverse of that (re: grunt work vs goals). I (the LIE) provided financial support and fixed things around her house. She suggested things to do on the weekends (which was practically the only time when I was there), like day trips to museums, walks in the woods, or classical concerts. She also cooked (and she was a fantastic cook - one of those naturals who improves the food while she's cooking it, while I can barely follow a recipe) and she was unfailingly emotionally supportive.

    Initially, we clashed on how to do every little thing, but we very quickly converged on a separation of roles for every day activities. Where we completely disagreed was in long range goals.

    And yes, I agree that I did absolutely zero micromanaging and she did understand what I wanted. Mostly.

    I need to stop thinking about this. Otherwise I'm too likely to pick up the phone and call her.

    To paraphrase, "the good that we had lives after our relationships. The evil is oft interred with their bones."
    I don't know what theory of socionics you subscribe to but it seems like the problems you are describing also come with duality since temperament issues and competition for roles and goals are also present. Isn't the emotionality Vs lack of emotionality the issue?

    Unless you've fallen for the fallacy of concluding it's duality when we get along, and not when we do not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    I don't know what theory of socionics you subscribe to but it seems like the problems you are describing also come with duality since temperament issues and competition for roles and goals are also present. Isn't the emotionality Vs lack of emotionality the issue?

    Unless you've fallen for the fallacy of concluding it's duality when we get along, and not when we do not.
    Usually ExTx - IxFx relationships work more easily than how Adam describes because the IxFx types kind of naturally complies to the ExTx. Yes even ESIs are somewhat this way even if they dislike to admit it. It´s often simply a matter of energy levels.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I am an LIE male and I dated an LSI female for two years. I think she was first attracted to me because I was kind to a person whom no one else liked.

    I recognized her type immediately, knew that she'd be rational and easy to get along with, so I invited her out to dinner just to socialize. While we were sitting in the restaurant, she asked me what's my deal? I told her that I'm divorced and looking, but not looking for her. She got really insulted and said she felt like leaving the restaurant, but I said "Wait a minute. Don't tell me that you don't have a list of things you are looking for. If we got together, we'd like each other a lot, the sex would be terrific, and it would last three months."
    While she's thinking about this, the check comes, she watches me pay it without blinking (it was a very nice restaurant) and she thinks, "This guy isn't cheap, he's not bad looking, and there's something about him (Mirage, if you were wondering). In three months, I think I can change his mind."
    Well, it lasted two years because Mirage has its good points, but eventually the constant misunderstandings got to be too much for me and I ended it.

    So yesterday, I was talking to this 31 year old LIE about business and how to make money and navigate the business world, and the talk got around to business vs home life and raising kids, and he said his wife is an airline pilot and makes a high income, so if they have kids, it is likely that he will become a house husband. Which he was OK with. He showed me a picture of himself and his wife. He looked deliriously happy and she VI'd LSI. (Hey, the sex and emotional support between LIE and LSI can be very, very good.)

    Alarm bells started to go off in my head. I asked him if she's very logical and he said "Yes, how did you know?"
    I asked him if she liked to go to the theater, and again he said yes.
    Does she like it when you really show her how you feel about her, like when you really express your emotions?
    Yes, again.
    I said, "I had a GF like that for a while. She and I got along great emotionally, but we had a hard time agreeing on how to work together. Even on short term, daily projects, we clashed, to say nothing about trying to make long range plans."
    "Yes! That's exactly how my wife and I are. We can't agree on anything. Not even something simple, like where we're going to eat."

    At this point, I was regretting the fact that I opened my mouth and decided to bring this convo to a halt. Some people can last in a relationship and be very happy for many, many years. It all depends on what you are willing to put up with and how much compromise you are willing to make, and I think my friend is pretty happy with his prospects and doesn't need to have someone plant any seeds of possible discord in his life by pointing him toward Stratiyevskaya's analysis of LIE-LSI relations.

    I told him that my GF liked it when I expressed my desire for her very openly and I never lied to her, not in the slightest. I hope that helps him a bit.

    I clearly need to keep my mouth shut about this socionics stuff.
    Dude every girl likes it when u open up and show ur emotions lol, also the "girls not knowing where to eat" bullshit is like a running gag in mens lockerroom talk community, but yea
    ~ ESTP ~ SLE ~ 7w8 ~ Sp/Sx ~ Fire ~ Aries ~ Beta ~ Gryffindor ~ Summer ~ SLUEN ~

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    I'm installing a new furnace and air conditioner in my house and had to choose a contractor to do the work. The choices were between an LIE, an LSI, and an SLE. I chose the LSI because I feel that he probably has the most self-discipline. (The bids were all within about 10% of each other, so they didn't factor into the decision.)

    I was showing him the ductwork from the old furnace and the area for the AC pad and where I wanted to place the exhaust vents and after a couple hours, he suddenly turned to me and out of the blue, said "You have a very interesting house. Not many people would have made the decisions you did. I think I'm going to enjoy working with you."

    Well, it's vice-versa. LSI's are very sensible, reliable, practical people who work hard and keep their promises.

    During our conversation, my ex-wife called and invited me to lunch. He didn't say anything but seemed curious. I told him that she and I were still friends but were in no danger of getting back together again. He said some people can remain friends with ex's, and some can't.
    I launched into a quick summary of the cult of Socionics, saying that there are 16 types of people and 16 types of relationships, running from #1 great at Duality to #16 horrible at conflict, and while my ex and I were a great social match, we were at about #12 for an interpersonal match. Furthermore, I had since dated a woman at about #5 (Mirage) who was pretty terrific, but I had to break it off with her because I am holding out for a #1 (Duality). But I've been having a hard time finding duals who think of me as a real prospect.

    He said, "If you already have a solid #5, why not stick with her? Time is passing every day, you know."
    (His attitude is an example of 3D Se and 2D Ni, and is exactly how I think my ESI duals operate. "This guy's good enough; nail him down right now." And then they stick with the decision come hell or high water.)

    But I am a future-thinking optimist. I hate making compromises today which I know will be a problem forever. So I told him, "OK, you could install one of two water heaters. They both look good and heat the water the same. One is available right now but its metal jacket is thinner to achieve the SEER rating. The other might not be available for several months, but the metal jacket is much thicker and more resistant to corrosion. Which would you install?"

    He just laughed. He's a good guy.

    I know that he'd prefer the one with the better, proven track record, but I didn't give him that choice.

  9. #49
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    "I like my women how I like my water heaters, thicc and unavailable" said Jack to Maxim, who smiled while silently thinking to himself "this guy is a tool just like his imaginary girlfriend"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    "I like my women how I like my water heaters, thicc and unavailable" said Jack to Maxim, who smiled while silently thinking to himself "this guy is a tool just like his imaginary girlfriend"
    This post doesn't make much sense as a comment, but it makes perfect sense as a projection.

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    my point is you constantly make judgements of maxim like "he would totally understand my dopey worldview and agree" and "he's a good guy", as if you condescend to sum him up, and its like he probably just thinks you're an idiot but will take your money and indulge your stupid "insights" toward that end. you remind me of every aging zhukov who ever thinks he figured someone out, and yet all you've managed to do is repeat a cliche known by all since 3rd grade. hopefully silke comes in to ooh and ah over your "insight", because its such low hanging fruit, begging for someone to admire it in virtue of its stupidity and who else could see the opportunity for what it is: an obvious invitation to stroke a narcissists' ego and ingratiate oneself in the process. its like free money and telegraphed so completely even IEI can grasp it


    looking forward to pt 3, Adam

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    Tbh your patheticness is so entertaining I almost want to tell you never to change @Bertrand

    but yeah you should, just saying.
    [Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.

    It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I am an LIE male and I dated an LSI female for two years. I think she was first attracted to me because I was kind to a person whom no one else liked.

    I recognized her type immediately, knew that she'd be rational and easy to get along with, so I invited her out to dinner just to socialize. While we were sitting in the restaurant, she asked me what's my deal? I told her that I'm divorced and looking, but not looking for her. She got really insulted and said she felt like leaving the restaurant, but I said "Wait a minute. Don't tell me that you don't have a list of things you are looking for. If we got together, we'd like each other a lot, the sex would be terrific, and it would last three months."
    While she's thinking about this, the check comes, she watches me pay it without blinking (it was a very nice restaurant) and she thinks, "This guy isn't cheap, he's not bad looking, and there's something about him (Mirage, if you were wondering). In three months, I think I can change his mind."
    Well, it lasted two years because Mirage has its good points, but eventually the constant misunderstandings got to be too much for me and I ended it.
    1. Her thinking isn't typical for LSI at all. It's typical NF thinking about changing the other person's mind about the relationship. It requires 1) confidence in Ethical area/manipulation of feelings 2) future/possibilities oriented Intuition. To me trying to do all this or even just considering to do it just would be *incredibly* stressful.
    2. I would never choose someone just because they were able to pay a bill at a nice restaurant.
    3. I didn't have *constant* misunderstandings with any LIE. Some but constant? No.


    So yesterday, I was talking to this 31 year old LIE about business and how to make money and navigate the business world, and the talk got around to business vs home life and raising kids, and he said his wife is an airline pilot and makes a high income, so if they have kids, it is likely that he will become a house husband. Which he was OK with. He showed me a picture of himself and his wife. He looked deliriously happy and she VI'd LSI. (Hey, the sex and emotional support between LIE and LSI can be very, very good.)

    Alarm bells started to go off in my head. I asked him if she's very logical and he said "Yes, how did you know?"
    I asked him if she liked to go to the theater, and again he said yes.
    Does she like it when you really show her how you feel about her, like when you really express your emotions?
    Yes, again.
    I said, "I had a GF like that for a while. She and I got along great emotionally, but we had a hard time agreeing on how to work together. Even on short term, daily projects, we clashed, to say nothing about trying to make long range plans."
    "Yes! That's exactly how my wife and I are. We can't agree on anything. Not even something simple, like where we're going to eat."
    I often couldn't easily agree with the LIE ex bf on where to eat lol, and a few other things, but in many other things we could agree. If you got along with this person great emotionally they were probably a Fi valuer.

    Sure airline pilots tend to be Logical types. I think the stereotype for pilots is SLI.


    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    Dude every girl likes it when u open up and show ur emotions lol, also the "girls not knowing where to eat" bullshit is like a running gag in mens lockerroom talk community, but yea
    I don't like it done in the Fi way so no, not every girl likes every way of showing feelings.

    And Adam didn't post about girls not knowing where to eat.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    1. Her thinking isn't typical for LSI at all. It's typical NF thinking about changing the other person's mind about the relationship. It requires 1) confidence in Ethical area/manipulation of feelings 2) future/possibilities oriented Intuition. To me trying to do all this or even just considering to do it just would be *incredibly* stressful.
    2. I would never choose someone just because they were able to pay a bill at a nice restaurant.
    3. I didn't have *constant* misunderstandings with any LIE. Some but constant? No.




    I often couldn't easily agree with the LIE ex bf on where to eat lol, and a few other things, but in many other things we could agree. If you got along with this person great emotionally they were probably a Fi valuer.

    Sure airline pilots tend to be Logical types. I think the stereotype for pilots is SLI.


    I don't like it done in the Fi way so no, not every girl likes every way of showing feelings.

    And Adam didn't post about girls not knowing where to eat.
    Hi, @Myst.
    I'm pretty sure she is LSI, although she took some tests and she said they came out differently. There were just too many other subtle signs, most of which (like her VI) I can't post here.
    I know she really lit up when I showed Fe Role, and one time she was sitting on the couch and she did Fi-Role, and I immediately had this flash of longing and regret because she couldn't do that all the time.
    I did appreciate her unbiased rationality, though.

    Regarding her reasons in the restaurant for deciding to invite me to her place for a seduction, that was sheer speculation on my part. All I can know for sure is that my statement of "I'm looking, but I'm not looking for you" didn't discourage her, and she was pretty constantly aggressive from a relationship standpoint. Which I liked.
    One factor which might explain some differences between her behavior and what you might expect is her age, which is over 40. People's behaviors change in different circumstances.

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    Tests are unreliable af
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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    Tests are unreliable af
    True. Sleeping with a person for two years works much better.

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    didn't you say you recognized her type immediately. "I recognized her immediately. tests contradicted. turns out I was right all along cause I got laid (the relationship failed, but not because I was wrong; indeed it ultimately failed precisely because I was right, up front, about it being inferior ITR). yes I had all that figured out but not enough to seek out a better ITR." thats actually story #2

    if you cut out all the stupid self aggrandizing bullshit it comes down to, "in retrospect I can see my past relationships were with non duals, and now I'm holding out for someone I believe is my dual." all this commentary on LSI never reaches bottom and is more just a vehicle for Adam to stroke himself via some of the cringiest storytelling ever about how even when he's wrong he's right and stuff to that effect. its sort of anti-literature in that respect, because there's zero psychological depth to the characters so its like reverse-insight into human beings, like as a piece of modern art where its a look into how a narcissist perceives the world. it reads like pat bateman on socionics. a kind of flattening of the perspective like drawing stick figures. in other words, the self satisfied doodling of a retard. an inadvertent Giacometti in its inhumanity, except he thinks its great
    Last edited by Bertrand; 06-17-2018 at 11:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Hi, @Myst.
    I'm pretty sure she is LSI, although she took some tests and she said they came out differently. There were just too many other subtle signs, most of which (like her VI) I can't post here.
    I know she really lit up when I showed Fe Role, and one time she was sitting on the couch and she did Fi-Role, and I immediately had this flash of longing and regret because she couldn't do that all the time.
    I did appreciate her unbiased rationality, though.

    Regarding her reasons in the restaurant for deciding to invite me to her place for a seduction, that was sheer speculation on my part. All I can know for sure is that my statement of "I'm looking, but I'm not looking for you" didn't discourage her, and she was pretty constantly aggressive from a relationship standpoint. Which I liked.
    One factor which might explain some differences between her behavior and what you might expect is her age, which is over 40. People's behaviors change in different circumstances.
    Oh yeha I realize it was just your guess about what she may have been thinking, so I just wanted to point it out that it isn't LSI thinking. I wouldn't want to guess what her exact reasoning was instead though lol. Interesting what you say about your reaction to the Fi role, thanks. Were you exaggerating the constant misunderstandings?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    didn't you say you recognized her type immediately. "I recognized her immediately. tests contradicted. turns out I was right all along cause I got laid (the relationship failed, but not because I was wrong; indeed it ultimately failed precisely because I was right, up front, about it being inferior ITR). yes I had all that figured out but not enough to seek out a better ITR." thats actually story #2

    if you cut out all the stupid self aggrandizing bullshit it comes down to, "in retrospect I can see my past relationships were with non duals, and now I'm holding out for someone I believe is my dual." all this commentary on LSI never reaches bottom and is more just a vehicle for Adam to stroke himself via some of the cringiest storytelling ever about how even when he's wrong he's right and stuff to that effect. its sort of anti-literature in that respect, because there's zero psychological depth to the characters so its like reverse-insight into human beings, like as a piece of modern art where its a look into how a narcissist perceives the world. it reads like pat bateman on socionics. a kind of flattening of the perspective like drawing stick figures. in other words, the self satisfied doodling of a retard. an inadvertent Giacometti in its inhumanity, except he thinks its great
    While you have a really interesting style here to the insults, I just can't stop wondering wtf triggers you so much in Adam's posts

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Oh yeha I realize it was just your guess about what she may have been thinking, so I just wanted to point it out that it isn't LSI thinking. I wouldn't want to guess what her exact reasoning was instead though lol. Interesting what you say about your reaction to the Fi role, thanks. Were you exaggerating the constant misunderstandings?
    I actually think she and I understood each other fairly well. She may have understood me more than I did her, though. I think she made a study of me, while I just went along for the ride and tried to make her happy.

    I'm not sure what I meant by constant misunderstandings. We had different approaches to problems, which I guess could be interpreted as different understandings of the situation.

    Mostly what bothered me about her was her drama, which I interpret as her need for Fe when I wasn't supplying enough of it. Sometimes she would do things which just shocked me. Needlessly reckless things. I'll PM you about that.

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    So my first GF was an LSI. She saw me doing donuts in my Jaguar in the parking lot and then she went out and got a six-pack of beer and called me to meet her in the park at sunset. The attraction was immediate. She was pretty terrific, and after we broke up, she got a math degree and taught mathematics in a college for a while.

    After my divorce, I met the woman I described in the post above. The LSI in the restaurant, that is. The attraction was immediate. She, also, was pretty terrific. That lasted a few years, as it turned out.

    At this point, I think I know LSI's and I know that as well as we get along, we eventually break up, so now I'm only open to dating ESI's. I figure that the previous two LSI's were basically the same person in almost every way. For one thing, when the lights were out, they acted exactly like each other. Exactly. Did I mention that both women were fantastic?

    Recently, my IEI hairdresser retired for health and "I don't feel like working" reasons, and he recommended his best employee to me to cut my hair. I went to her new salon and we were talking with our COVID-19 masks on while she cut my hair. I was thinking that I liked her because it seemed like we could talk about anything together, and I asked her if she'd take her mask off for a minute (so I could VI her). She said, "Sure" and removed her mask and she was an LSI.

    Yesterday, I went to get my hair cut by her for the second time. While cutting my hair, she asked me what my status was and I said I was single but looking, but I was looking for someone in particular. She said the she was single too, and she dropped her last BF because he was too aggressive in bed...and I told her that I had been accused of that by my last GF (the LSI)....and she said he was too big, too. Lol. This was the second time I'd ever spoken to her.
    When she finished cutting my hair, I paid and headed for the door and she quickly closed the salon and walked out with me. I thought, WTF? but we talked all the way to our cars in the parking lot and then continued to talk for about thirty minutes after that. I hate to belabor a point, but the attraction was tangible.
    She looked like my first LSI GF and I told her that I was looking for someone who was not her, but I was also doing my best to not come on to her, despite thinking that she was incredibly sexy.

    SMH.

    I don't know why LSI's and I get along so well, so fast. It feels as if the universe is conspiring to connect me with women who are both hot and wrong for me.

    In the meantime, the ESI's whom I know are standing 200 yards away, doing things not with me. And when I try to talk to them, they go "Who dat?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by PotatoSpirit View Post
    Dunno... fight for power? (c:

    Gonna take a leap here: use you N to see what his decisions will bring and what other venues you could take, friendlily point out how they could be better, then sneakily make your ENTj friend notice how the ISTj's decisions would have caused damage, especially to him since he's the leader.

    Can I ask you if you perceive there to be a struggle or if it happens naturally? I'm beginning to see what Courage means.
    i recommend deltas not try to be sneaky with LIE. if we know you well, it can seem obvious and ...then the very contrivance can cast doubt on your message. and with a LIE a delta is going to have better success not seeming like they think the LSI is evil.

    The LIE can see LSI's vulnerabilities and humanity, and casting them in a bad light makes the accuser seem blind and hatey, not reasonable. Talk about bad actions and ineptitude with CERTAIN areas. THAT we could see.
    non-functioning is a call to action for LIE. emotional manipulation and hating on someone can piss us off..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    So my first GF was an LSI. She saw me doing donuts in my Jaguar in the parking lot and then she went out and got a six-pack of beer and called me to meet her in the park at sunset. The attraction was immediate. She was pretty terrific, and after we broke up, she got a math degree and taught mathematics in a college for a while.

    After my divorce, I met the woman I described in the post above. The LSI in the restaurant, that is. The attraction was immediate. She, also, was pretty terrific. That lasted a few years, as it turned out.

    At this point, I think I know LSI's and I know that as well as we get along, we eventually break up, so now I'm only open to dating ESI's. I figure that the previous two LSI's were basically the same person in almost every way. For one thing, when the lights were out, they acted exactly like each other. Exactly. Did I mention that both women were fantastic?

    Recently, my IEI hairdresser retired for health and "I don't feel like working" reasons, and he recommended his best employee to me to cut my hair. I went to her new salon and we were talking with our COVID-19 masks on while she cut my hair. I was thinking that I liked her because it seemed like we could talk about anything together, and I asked her if she'd take her mask off for a minute (so I could VI her). She said, "Sure" and removed her mask and she was an LSI.

    Yesterday, I went to get my hair cut by her for the second time. While cutting my hair, she asked me what my status was and I said I was single but looking, but I was looking for someone in particular. She said the she was single too, and she dropped her last BF because he was too aggressive in bed...and I told her that I had been accused of that by my last GF (the LSI)....and she said he was too big, too. Lol. This was the second time I'd ever spoken to her.
    When she finished cutting my hair, I paid and headed for the door and she quickly closed the salon and walked out with me. I thought, WTF? but we talked all the way to our cars in the parking lot and then continued to talk for about thirty minutes after that. I hate to belabor a point, but the attraction was tangible.
    She looked like my first LSI GF and I told her that I was looking for someone who was not her, but I was also doing my best to not come on to her, despite thinking that she was incredibly sexy.

    SMH.

    I don't know why LSI's and I get along so well, so fast. It feels as if the universe is conspiring to connect me with women who are both hot and wrong for me.

    In the meantime, the ESI's whom I know are standing 200 yards away, doing things not with me. And when I try to talk to them, they go "Who dat?"
    I've noticed LSI men and I can sometimes have an easier time getting talking because there's shared interests in the T and Se-Ni geek domains and because there's a sense of not being head over heels in love and upended...we're more in our regular modus operandi still and kinda curious and half very attracted.

    They really do need things I can tell I don't have enough of for them and vice versa, imo.

    Can be very great friends, ime.

    Also...very admirable/cool.

    When i see them with Beta NFs, I feel glad for them that they are in a better situation than if I was dating the LSI despite some pretty intense connections we might have grown.

    The 'in love' and 'understood' thing ppl talk about is what I've had with esi, only. not every esi, but nearly every.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    It feels as if the universe is conspiring to connect me with women who are both hot and wrong for me.

    You're EIE, dude.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    i recommend deltas not try to be sneaky with LIE. if we know you well, it can seem obvious and ...then the very contrivance can cast doubt on your message. and with a LIE a delta is going to have better success not seeming like they think the LSI is evil.
    That has been my biggest grievance with LIEs, and the Ni subtype in particular. They project scheming and bad intentions on other people when they are the biggest schemers of them all.

    At my previous job, most of my superiors were LIE-Ni. They would always come up with these crazy unrealistic plans that required 10 times the workpower we had. The planning would go on and on for months(team of 3 LIE-Ni, one EIE-Ni, me, SLI and sometimes LSI) and then we had like two weeks to implement everything. There was no point in telling them "may I remind you we're not supermen, no one has the strength to implement this". Se HA you know. LSI and me bonded over this.

    LSI after meeting: "Hey did you already take your holiday ? I'm taking my leave during implementation week"
    Me: "No I can't but I wish I did. I'm probably be able to take one or two days off max"

    No one other than Gammas likes to work in such shitty unsustainable conditions. Gamma "work culture" is voluntary slavery. If a "delta" or basically anyone is sneaky with you, it's because your overplanning is planning for failure. But yeah, let's all prance around smiling and pretending we're some productive work machine, while we are being burned out each time implementation week is around the corner. Shit, I'm glad I'm out of there.
    Last edited by lkdhf qkb; 11-08-2020 at 12:00 PM. Reason: title

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    That has been my biggest grievance with LIEs, and the Ni subtype in particular. They project scheming and bad intentions on other people when they are the biggest schemers of them all.

    At my previous job, most of my superiors were LIE-Ni. They would always come up with these crazy unrealistic plans that required 10 times the workpower we had. The planning would go on and on for months(team of 3 LIE-Ni, one EIE-Ni, me, SLI and sometimes LSI) and then we had like two weeks to implement everything. There was no point in telling them "may I remind you we're not supermen, no one has the strength to implement this". Se HA you know. LSI and me bonded over this.

    LSI after meeting: "Hey did you already take your holiday ? I'm taking my leave during implementation week"
    Me: "No I can't but I wish I did. I'm probably be able to take one or two days off max"

    No one other than Gammas likes to work in such shitty unsustainable conditions. Gamma "work culture" is voluntary slavery. If a "delta" or basically anyone is sneaky with you, it's because your overplanning is planning for failure. But yeah, let's all prance around smiling and pretending we're some productive work machine, while we are being burned out each time implementation week is around the corner. Shit, I'm glad I'm out of there.
    I think she's talking about personal relationships.
    What good is a book that does not even transport us beyond all books?

    ~Nietzsche

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    I think she's talking about personal relationships.
    Her reaction was to someone giving advice about a work relationship, so I was responding to that interaction. Haha but thanks man, yea the thread is about personal relationships. Since I'm neither a LSI nor LIE, I can't provide any insight about that(and I don't really care about it). I'd guess they'd have trouble actually understanding each other and probably they'd dismiss each other's points.

    PS: My point is tangentially valid in personal relationships too though. LIE sometimes try to ascertain and speculate on ethical attitudes of others and then project on them that those are grounds to be sneaky or scheming. I think that's evil thinking and delusional.
    (For example, someone not liking an LSI doesn't mean he's bent on hurting him. He could just tell him he doesn't don't like his behaviour(in a bitch! piecashite! I HATE you! kind of style), that would get the steam out and make his position clear from a Fe perspective. I think Fe valuers actually prefer when things are 'out there' so they can be worked on. And if this someone doesn't tell anything, then it's none of the LIEs business. But in a weird way, LIEs always want to get into people's head instead.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Her reaction was to someone giving advice about a work relationship, so I was responding to that interaction. Haha but thanks man, yea the thread is about personal relationships. Since I'm neither a LSI nor LIE, I can't provide any insight about that(and I don't really care about it). I'd guess they'd have trouble actually understanding each other and probably they'd dismiss each other's points.

    PS: My point is tangentially valid in personal relationships too though. LIE sometimes try to ascertain and speculate on ethical attitudes of others and then project on them that those are grounds to be sneaky or scheming. I think that's evil thinking and delusional.
    (For example, someone not liking an LSI doesn't mean he's bent on hurting him. He could just tell him he doesn't don't like his behaviour(in a bitch! piecashite! I HATE you! kind of style), that would get the steam out and make his position clear from a Fe perspective. I think Fe valuers actually prefer when things are 'out there' so they can be worked on. And if this someone doesn't tell anything, then it's none of the LIEs business. But in a weird way, LIEs always want to get into people's head instead.)
    Well, I'm not currently sure if I'm LIE or EIE, but I do this. I do agree with you that it's better to talk things out rather than be supposing things most of the time, but at the same time, people don't always tell the truth and also they do not always know themselves very well.

    I'm not sure what you mean with this: "And if this someone doesn't tell anything, then it's none of the LIEs business" that would depend on what the something is and who that someone is (to the LIE), no?

    I also kinda hate being told I am imagining things, when there are inconsistencies in someone's behaviors or words.

    So while I agree that Ni egos tend to sometimes over-project motives onto other people's intents when we don't have the information, something which just talking it out could resolve, I also feel like I am a person perfectly willing to talk things out first rather than just assume things about others scheming...but others have not always been so willing to do so. I'm thinking of a relationship with a particular person here, I don't want to talk about it much anymore, because I've beaten this horse to death on here, but I feel like is being distant and when I try to talk it out, she tells me everything is fine. I'm not gonna get into the details, but her behavior doesn't seem like everything is fine between us. Even if she didn't want to talk to me anymore, she isn't even saying that, either.

    So yeah, paranoid, perhaps, but I also wish people would be more open and not tell me bullshit.
    What good is a book that does not even transport us beyond all books?

    ~Nietzsche

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    Well, I'm not currently sure if I'm LIE or EIE, but I do this. I do agree with you that it's better to talk things out rather than be supposing things most of the time, but at the same time, people don't always tell the truth and also they do not always know themselves very well.
    Good points, I also think it's good to assess people's intentions independently from what they say. In an intimate relationship however I see this as driving a wedge between people and actually destroying the good in the relationship. Trust should be there before being intimate, the reverse only brings heartbreak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean with this: "And if this someone doesn't tell anything, then it's none of the LIEs business" that would depend on what the something is and who that someone is (to the LIE), no?
    You're right of course I guess that's my personal "innocent until proven guilty" policy. Once the trust is broken, there's no going back though. I don't allow anyone to hurt me twice. Works well in delta, I'm not so sure about gammas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    I also kinda hate being told I am imagining things, when there are inconsistencies in someone's behaviors or words.

    So while I agree that Ni egos tend to sometimes over-project motives onto other people's intents when we don't have the information, something which just talking it out could resolve, I also feel like I am a person perfectly willing to talk things out first rather than just assume things about others scheming...but others have not always been so willing to do so. I'm thinking of a relationship with a particular person here, I don't want to talk about it much anymore, because I've beaten this horse to death on here, but I feel like is being distant and when I try to talk it out, she tells me everything is fine. I'm not gonna get into the details, but her behavior doesn't seem like everything is fine between us. Even if she didn't want to talk to me anymore, she isn't even saying that, either.
    So yeah, paranoid, perhaps, but I also wish people would be more open and not tell me bullshit.
    I'd guess you're LIE. I'm sorry to hear that bro, I've been there too. At some point I dumped her because the levels of trust were just too low for me, and I was lazy to look up what was wrong and take responsability for solving it when I didn't sense any willingness to even talk about anything from her. Not that I think that's the way to go though, my action wasn't very mature and the problem could probably have been solved with some couple therapy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Actually, @Rebelondeck, my relationship with the LSI was kind of the reverse of that (re: grunt work vs goals). I (the LIE) provided financial support and fixed things around her house. She suggested things to do on the weekends (which was practically the only time when I was there), like day trips to museums, walks in the woods, or classical concerts. She also cooked (and she was a fantastic cook - one of those naturals who improves the food while she's cooking it, while I can barely follow a recipe) and she was unfailingly emotionally supportive.

    Initially, we clashed on how to do every little thing, but we very quickly converged on a separation of roles for every day activities. Where we completely disagreed was in long range goals.

    And yes, I agree that I did absolutely zero micromanaging and she did understand what I wanted. Mostly.

    I need to stop thinking about this. Otherwise I'm too likely to pick up the phone and call her.

    To paraphrase, "the good that we had lives after our relationships. The evil is oft interred with their bones."
    yeah, I am not even that fixy, but i still end up doing the muscles bit for my ESTP? and IEI friends. They help me have social and physical pleasure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    That has been my biggest grievance with LIEs, and the Ni subtype in particular. They project scheming and bad intentions on other people when they are the biggest schemers of them all.

    At my previous job, most of my superiors were LIE-Ni. They would always come up with these crazy unrealistic plans that required 10 times the workpower we had. The planning would go on and on for months(team of 3 LIE-Ni, one EIE-Ni, me, SLI and sometimes LSI) and then we had like two weeks to implement everything. There was no point in telling them "may I remind you we're not supermen, no one has the strength to implement this". Se HA you know. LSI and me bonded over this.

    LSI after meeting: "Hey did you already take your holiday ? I'm taking my leave during implementation week"
    Me: "No I can't but I wish I did. I'm probably be able to take one or two days off max"

    No one other than Gammas likes to work in such shitty unsustainable conditions. Gamma "work culture" is voluntary slavery. If a "delta" or basically anyone is sneaky with you, it's because your overplanning is planning for failure. But yeah, let's all prance around smiling and pretending we're some productive work machine, while we are being burned out each time implementation week is around the corner. Shit, I'm glad I'm out of there.
    clearly you were in a hellish situation, and I have empathy for that.

    That aside, no, when I'm overworking is not the only time a Delta has tried to manipulate me by saying something sneaky instead of just telling me their ideas.

    I am not positing delta are inherently sneaky.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Her reaction was to someone giving advice about a work relationship, so I was responding to that interaction. Haha but thanks man, yea the thread is about personal relationships. Since I'm neither a LSI nor LIE, I can't provide any insight about that(and I don't really care about it). I'd guess they'd have trouble actually understanding each other and probably they'd dismiss each other's points.

    PS: My point is tangentially valid in personal relationships too though. LIE sometimes try to ascertain and speculate on ethical attitudes of others and then project on them that those are grounds to be sneaky or scheming. I think that's evil thinking and delusional.
    (For example, someone not liking an LSI doesn't mean he's bent on hurting him. He could just tell him he doesn't don't like his behaviour(in a bitch! piecashite! I HATE you! kind of style), that would get the steam out and make his position clear from a Fe perspective. I think Fe valuers actually prefer when things are 'out there' so they can be worked on. And if this someone doesn't tell anything, then it's none of the LIEs business. But in a weird way, LIEs always want to get into people's head instead.)
    LIE and EIE do get in people's heads. That's our work. We're built for ideas.

    It's not some nefarious thing. And it isn't inherently invasive nor is it inherently cruel.

    there is a difference between saying someone is doing an evil act and someone IS evil. and us protecting people, when someone is or is not being hyperbolic in accusing the people of BEING evil, is a good thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    there is a difference between saying someone is doing an evil act and someone IS evil. and us protecting people, when someone is or is not being hyperbolic in accusing the people of BEING evil, is a good thing.
    What are you protecting people from, though? Words & thoughts!
    And how are you protecting those people? Through acts! Rarely have I seen a LIE try to reason someone or listen to their griefs; they are more bent on vengeance than education or prevention.

    It's easy to delude that one's aggression is justified while the one from the other party isn't. Have you ever wondered where the cliché about cut-throat and remorseless Gammas comes from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    What are you protecting people from, though? Words & thoughts!
    And how are you protecting those people? Through acts! Rarely have I seen a LIE try to reason someone or listen to their griefs; they are more bent on vengeance than education or prevention.

    It's easy to delude that one's aggression is justified while the one from the other party isn't. Have you ever wondered where the cliché about cut-throat and remorseless Gammas comes from?
    Vengeance!

    Yep. That's me.

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    I witnessed an LSI and LIE get to know each other. They immediately hit it off. True to the ITR, they are noticeably very relaxed in each other's presence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Rarely have I seen a LIE try to reason someone or listen to their griefs; they are more bent on vengeance than education or prevention.

    I just got back from listening to my IEI friend talk about her various griefs for hours. I loved it. I really enjoy being the friend people know they can share their shit with. I love learning about them and their needs. I love being supportive for them. I love applying what they learn in my own life. AND THAT IS VERY GAMMA. It's in the wikisocion articles on gammas and how they prefer to talk about life.

    I listened to my EII friend for an hour doing the same thing yesterday afternoon. 'I always feel better when I talk with you.'

    I had a maybe 3 hours discussion on life and his relationships with my ESTJ friend in a messaging app LAST NIGHT.

    I guess if you had a few gammas at your job that behaved the way yours did, you might think we're all business and abusive. We're not.

    I don't relate to that at all ...that 'not listening' at all.

    People have sought me ought for the last two decades to confide in me and get relief in sharing what they need to.

    And at my job this summer, I am the one people come to when they don't go to HR, and I listen and commiserate, and then I talk with them about getting their needs met. And then I go do it.

    And when I was teaching tech, the kids came to me when an aide was being coercive and denigrating to them because I paused more than the other teachers were and made special efforts to encourage them to speak up and get me if they couldn't handle something, including when I disagreed with their not correcting a teacher. I explained that it helps me when they share what they see and that the first person who could find a mistake I made and shared it with me during class would get to take the class toy home. And I disagreed that they needed to call me Ms. Nanashi's Lastname. The other teacher down the hall was SERIOUSLY upset by that. "They need to know who's the teacher."
    'I'm almost six feet tall. They know who the teacher is.' I want them to understand how the ability really functions and to get that I have a first name, nanashi, and that I don't think I'm above them or their dictator.
    I am more concerned with them developing self-advocacy skills, getting that I am human and thus fallible though good-intentioned and willing to grow and correct my behavior, knowing I'm their ally (not just their authoritarian leader), and they are co-creating the world we're in.



    LIE are not Mr. Burns. We're shit at somethings, but we're VERY invested in peoples' lives and can be incredibly gregarious, loyal, supportive, and self-sacrificing. We don't only have characteristics of cruel, abusive leaders.

    I have seen myself motivate and support people into excellence in their work or learning. AND A TON OF IT WAS VIA LISTENING TO THEM.


    on LIE and EIE:
    "These types like to find internally contradictory people, "dig" in them and create in them internal harmony and mood. They make for great artists, because they know how to and love to "become" one with an image of a man and play a role from his worldview. They are able to understand the essence of complex internal situations and make for potentially good analysts. "

    and

    "Search for internally contradictory situations, like to grasp their essence. Often realize themselves in art and writing, as this is also a good way to use the function. They are able to enter into various internal psychological states. A good speaker, as he is able to influence positively on the internal state of others. Their product is the "wholeness" of the internal state, and therefore they can find success in field of psychology, because it means that they are the healers of souls."

    Aushra Augusta


    AND

    "as a suggestive (5th) function (LIE and LSE)
    The individual longs for close personal relationships where personal and private experiences can be shared easily in an atmosphere of mutual trust, sustained by shared sentiments and ethical beliefs that make external expression of emotions unnecessary. The individual is inclined to take first steps"

    "People of these types strive to find themselves in environment where they like everything and everyone. If they don't like something or someone - this is a reason to change their environment. Very receptive when he is told how someone else should be treated. When he does not know how to treat someone, feels uncomfortable - needs those who can explain this to him. Looks for a place where he would be allowed to communicate his assessments and attitudes. If this is allowed - the place seems welcoming to him. In this regard, he is very mistrustful and and often tries to rely on some objective data. Very suggestible by the valuations of those who are close to him, and through this he can be taken advantage of. Having found himself in some new place, if there is such a person there, he will try to listen to his/her evaluations and then adopt them as his own. The best place for him is where he has a circle of close and trusted friends. He likes situations where he knows or can accurately assess how everything should be treated and valuated: "this is white and that is black." If he lacks such clarity, he may feel uncomfortable. It is very painful for him to part with his groups of friends or team where he worked - memories will bring him to bouts of nostalgia. It is very hurtful for him to lose a friend, a comrade, a colleague, whom he has known for a long while. Same applies to his personal life. "
    AND implying someone IS EVIL. When that's clearly corrupt information is enough to make a LIE dig in their heels and see you as someone on whom they cannot depend for counsel. Actions can be evil. People aren't. And when a delta person has worries, it's good to explain their concerns so that an LIE can implement safeguards to buffer the organization and people from those possibly impending threats, NOT to insinuate we should throw Beta person over the side into the ocean.




    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    What are you protecting people from, though? Words & thoughts!
    And how are you protecting those people? Through acts!
    We're very active people. I've seen EIE and LIE shift mountains in a day. That words are easy to say does not mean they lack power. Thoughts and ideas contribute to most of the happenings in the world. And discrediting a person entirely and acting like they are evil does mean they can become endangered, and it's reasonable to protect someone from shit ideas like that.

    crusades, stonings, scarlet letter, angry mobs, etc

    and also undercutting them in meetings just from bitterness....turning a cold shoulder toward them to passive aggressively indicate what you aren't saying....trying to make them feel unwelcome and dangerous.....intervening to keep them from getting responsibilities they are capable of at work or a promotion they earned...there are a lot of ways ideas that someone IS BAD can mean a person is going to trouble them.



    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    It's easy to delude that one's aggression is justified while the one from the other party isn't. Have you ever wondered where the cliché about cut-throat and remorseless Gammas comes from?
    But the gamma described in the work scenario was simply distancing themselves from a delta who denigrated the Beta. That's not AGGRESSION.

    And I know gammas are portrayed as cut-throat when we are comfortable with OFTEN non-harmful firmness on reasonable policies where other types are uncomfortable being firm about them. That we are seen as aggressive and cut-throat is a bad portrayal. Sure, any person of any type can be cruel and selfish. Doesn't mean gammas are especiallly so. The literature points to gamma being a quadra focused on giving for the greater good. People respond to and remember the negative more strongly, so of course, we are portrayed incorrectly as the ever cold 'bad guys.' But that's just not realistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    I witnessed an LSI and LIE get to know each other. They immediately hit it off. True to the ITR, they are noticeably very relaxed in each other's presence.
    This is very typical mirage behavior . Very chill and relaxed. They instantly cover creative needs and work with role (like ILE might be hands on with logical problem). LIE probably calms down vigilance of LSI but I kind of draw blank what LIE gets. By theory maybe response ready relation.
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    not sure, I seem to antagonize every self typed LIE here minus @Frddy who was typed as LIE by a russian socionist. From the start I thought he was gr8.

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    Thanks for taking your time to clear things up. To make things clear on my side, I never said I didn't like LIEs or that they are a "bad type"(that would be a shocking generalisation). I appreciate a lot of LIEs and gammas in general.

    @SojournInLimbo My problem was that the company was an "overly gamma environment"(like I'd estimate the share of alpha/beta/gamma/delta at respectively 5/25/50/20 percent from the people I typed) and there were no alphas to keep them 'in check'. The LIEs started acting like:



    And not like :




    So what they were doing: creating useless rivalries between departments just for the fun of it, favouring their friends when jobs had to be given, acting like positions were 'up for grabs' when everything was predetermined(I applied for jobs that didn't exist or were already given basically), pretending there is no hierarchy and that everyone is welcome to contribute to decisions but keeping people in the dark about any development unless you were in the 'inner circle'("You don't need to know"="I won't show my cards to you") even if it explicitely concerned your interests, breaking safety regulations, etc.... the word teamwork would have sounded like a joke to them probably. I mean, it went so far that even betas would distanciate.

    In general, I have trouble with "quadral groups"(even my own), nothing gets done and people just act stupid. Last year, I had flatmates that were all alpha, and after two months I couldn't stand the constant emotional output as if my house was some kind of south american soap opera. In beta groups it's more like an episode of narcos.

    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    I just got back from listening to my IEI friend talk about her various griefs for hours. I loved it. I really enjoy being the friend people know they can share their shit with. I love learning about them and their needs. I love being supportive for them. I love applying what they learn in my own life. AND THAT IS VERY GAMMA. It's in the wikisocion articles on gammas and how they prefer to talk about life.

    I listened to my EII friend for an hour doing the same thing yesterday afternoon. 'I always feel better when I talk with you.'

    I had a maybe 3 hours discussion on life and his relationships with my ESTJ friend in a messaging app LAST NIGHT.

    I guess if you had a few gammas at your job that behaved the way yours did, you might think we're all business and abusive. We're not.

    I don't relate to that at all ...that 'not listening' at all.

    People have sought me ought for the last two decades to confide in me and get relief in sharing what they need to.

    And at my job this summer, I am the one people come to when they don't go to HR, and I listen and commiserate, and then I talk with them about getting their needs met. And then I go do it.

    And when I was teaching tech, the kids came to me when an aide was being coercive and denigrating to them because I paused more than the other teachers were and made special efforts to encourage them to speak up and get me if they couldn't handle something, including when I disagreed with their not correcting a teacher. I explained that it helps me when they share what they see and that the first person who could find a mistake I made and shared it with me during class would get to take the class toy home. And I disagreed that they needed to call me Ms. Nanashi's Lastname. The other teacher down the hall was SERIOUSLY upset by that. "They need to know who's the teacher."
    'I'm almost six feet tall. They know who the teacher is.' I want them to understand how the ability really functions and to get that I have a first name, nanashi, and that I don't think I'm above them or their dictator.
    I am more concerned with them developing self-advocacy skills, getting that I am human and thus fallible though good-intentioned and willing to grow and correct my behavior, knowing I'm their ally (not just their authoritarian leader), and they are co-creating the world we're in.

    LIE are not Mr. Burns. We're shit at somethings, but we're VERY invested in peoples' lives and can be incredibly gregarious, loyal, supportive, and self-sacrificing. We don't only have characteristics of cruel, abusive leaders.

    I have seen myself motivate and support people into excellence in their work or learning. AND A TON OF IT WAS VIA LISTENING TO THEM.
    Well, that's great! I guess my remark was more meant as listening to their "ennemies" not their allies.

    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    AND implying someone IS EVIL. When that's clearly corrupt information is enough to make a LIE dig in their heels and see you as someone on whom they cannot depend for counsel. Actions can be evil. People aren't. And when a delta person has worries, it's good to explain their concerns so that an LIE can implement safeguards to buffer the organization and people from those possibly impending threats, NOT to insinuate we should throw Beta person over the side into the ocean.


    Maybe the problem is then that you stop to listen when someone says someone else is evil. I know we're talking hypothetically, but would you even care to ask why they think what they think? Most people actually can be convinced to change their minds.

    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    We're very active people. I've seen EIE and LIE shift mountains in a day. That words are easy to say does not mean they lack power. Thoughts and ideas contribute to most of the happenings in the world. And discrediting a person entirely and acting like they are evil does mean they can become endangered, and it's reasonable to protect someone from shit ideas like that.

    crusades, stonings, scarlet letter, angry mobs, etc

    and also undercutting them in meetings just from bitterness....turning a cold shoulder toward them to passive aggressively indicate what you aren't saying....trying to make them feel unwelcome and dangerous.....intervening to keep them from getting responsibilities they are capable of at work or a promotion they earned...there are a lot of ways ideas that someone IS BAD can mean a person is going to trouble them.
    I can understand what you mean, but I think projecting crusades and stonings on people's hate is a slippery slope(unless you live in Afghanistan). I mean, you can only overreact if you think that the next step is going to be a mobbing. That completely messes up your 'threat radar' and makes you react to something that only exists in your head. I.e. delusional.


    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    But the gamma described in the work scenario was simply distancing themselves from a delta who denigrated the Beta. That's not AGGRESSION.
    Good point. It still sounds bad because you imply that denigrating is an aggression but then you denigrate or evict the denigrator. In what way are you contributing something constructive? That's just perpetuating a vicious circle of violence.

    "Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that" ~ Martin Luther King Jr.
    &
    “An eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind.” Gandhi

    I'm going to repeat myself: Do you ever wonder where the cliché of ruthless gammas comes from?

    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    And I know gammas are portrayed as cut-throat when we are comfortable with OFTEN non-harmful firmness on reasonable policies where other types are uncomfortable being firm about them. That we are seen as aggressive and cut-throat is a bad portrayal. Sure, any person of any type can be cruel and selfish. Doesn't mean gammas are especiallly so. The literature points to gamma being a quadra focused on giving for the greater good. People respond to and remember the negative more strongly, so of course, we are portrayed incorrectly as the ever cold 'bad guys.' But that's just not realistic.
    If that's true, I think gammas should leave determining what's the greater good to beta and delta NFs. SFs don't really grasp what's "greater or not" and NTs have trouble with determining "good and bad".

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