HA = not to be used for typing. Usually it is HIDDEN.
Static types wont be dynamic and vice versa. So there will be a drive but not very visible manifestation.
HA = not to be used for typing. Usually it is HIDDEN.
Static types wont be dynamic and vice versa. So there will be a drive but not very visible manifestation.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
yeah good luck finding an IEE's real Te "plan"
Yeah agreed, there is just such better ways to type a person, mainly the ego functions.Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007
Actually the Te HA of IEEs is very interesting ime.
A bunch of the Ego block energy Ne Fi of IEEs is actually invested in Te ways. This means being nice for getting stuff they need and using Fi to motivate others, Ne is used in having new ideas all the time related to business possibilities.
However having 2DTe, they sometimes fail at managing resources wisely or have trouble in organizing with money, calculating gains and investments etc. They tend to waste and spend a lot.
Last edited by Hope; 02-20-2018 at 06:34 PM.
yeah but the underlying calculations are pretty indiscernible beyond "using Ne/Fi to get what you want"
Yeah when I'm around people I tend to go about ways to help them out or entertain in my own theoretical context. Does someone needs help in new sort of situation to be explored and figured out? I'm all ears!
To be honest that is only a tiny part people's lives.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
With enough observation of different individuals HA patterns can be decently identified and described as the rest of the functions imo. To me the HA is like that underlying motivation for each type. IEEs are always thinking in doing new projects and business and making money. I disagree btw, with the notion of Se=money or wealth, thats not true and its not supported by theory. Te is more interested in money or gains than Se. Te+Si is getting money for comfort. Te+Se then is more like wealth or status. The Se interest in money is secondary and its seen just as a tool for the actual drive of Se, that is more likely power.
There is a portray in some description (maybe in the clipped wings article, I'll look for it) of an IEE who was married with an SLE who had a shoe store and she was disappointed and embarrassed of him, considering him a looser because he was just a shoe seller. The thing was her Te HA and she being Ne, Te valuer instead of Ti, Ni.
i think a good way to think about it is logical functions deal in quantitative measures and ethics qualitative, so Te is really interested quantifying Fi qualitative judgments and trying to be efficient with them which is input/useful output. what makes the Te in IEE harder to discern is not the outward process but the nature of creative Fi creatively subverting the calculus by changing the nature of the underlying judgments. blocked withe Ne this can be very hard to predict, although that is wrapped up in "getting to know someone"
The deal is having real experiences with ppl. Thats the only way to obtain decent knowledge. Thats why a bunch of theory is made with examples or descriptions of real ppl. Theory doesn't have much application if it doesn't comes from experience and is used for improvement, especially in psychology.
Thats why I say that HA in IEEs is as observable as the HA in every other type. But HA doesnt appear at first sight, you need to relate to the person and getting know him/her for actually discovering it. Its the hidden motivation, thats why its called hidden agenda.
Edit. For example contrary of what will be expected, is not the IEE who sets the emotional distance and tone in duality, its the SLI with Fi HA. And its not the SLI the one who sets the interest on incomes, its the IEE with Te HA. But IEE having poor manage of Te and SLI of Fi its hard for themselves to do ok by themselves They need the other who has a better grasp of the IE, so it serves as a complementary.
I suppose something similar happens with LIE-ESI, being the LIE the one who has the Se HA and the ESI the full grasp of the element.
Last edited by Hope; 02-20-2018 at 07:21 PM.
I know an LIE who started going to the gym and working out. He went every day and did a full body workout each day. After some weeks he started loosing weight and got thinner and thinner until he was like a skeleton (his own words). Then he had to quit.
Probably some Si PoLR in the mix also.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
LIE faced with a Se environment:In general you shouldn't do that senselessly and if so, it depends on their actual, individual combat skillsBut I think... when LIEs fight, it's more like this:
I believe I have the answer myself, but it's interesting to see the LIE's and perhaps others also to describe it. After all, it's LIE's HA, so they should prbly explain it themself? Although, perhaps they prefer to remain shtum, I suppose HA can be a sensitive area after all.
I think EIEs and LIEs with Se HA secretly want to conquer the world but they cant because their 2DSe is just too useless
IMO LIEHA comes across as trying to control people around them and their environment indirectly. Like they use their
and
to force (
“We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand.” Randy Pausch
Ne-IEE
6w7 sp/sx
6w7-9w1-4w5
yes absolutely. this is precisely how I understand duals to synergize and what makes duality special! I think you raise an interesting point which HA is best understood with reference to the dual, because its only within that relationship that it functions in a way that "makes sense" as something other than an incomplete process and inasmuch as that is the case in an "inscrutable" (paradoxical, unclear, etc) fashion. by that I mean it can tie itself in a knot or be otherwise insufficient by itself which makes it hard to sort out in individuals as to what's going on with them judged on its own or in its behavioral manifestations as an atomic actor. your thing about EIEs and LSI is great, because I think it casts more light on their HA than any sort of atomic behavioral analysis ("an EIE I know does this" etc). one can bring up all sorts of behavioral manifestations but without synthesizing it into a cry for help on some level it comes across as making the HA a non functional shortcoming, when it really isn't, especially in a dual relationship. even HAs when not supported are functional in the sense they operate to send out that signal, which is why people who don't value those needs view them as "pathetic" but its not really pathetic, its a part of being human, and type is just the unique twist on that people partake in and we've sorted it into categories we call xx mobilizing
as to EIE their HA is wanting someone who will impose their EIE-informed will on others. so they make gestures in this area "we should crush these foes" and LSI makes it happen, etc. in the same way HA Te is like "i really want x" <-- creative Fi with an implicit Te "signal" and SLI works on ways to achieve it, of course SLI gets a say in calibrating the Fi with Te feedback and also via other relational input. so the HA is best described as the flipside to creative, which is precisely what it is but people lose sight of that when they break it out into its own atomic actor
Last edited by Bertrand; 02-20-2018 at 08:42 PM.
Se HA in LIE's means that they have a weak liver.
Well said. Pretty much in line with strong but devaluedIMO LIE. Picking the most useful option out of many, so they utilize creative
LIEs Se HA involves trying to create power driven situations, money making schemes, and sometimes risky places.IMO LIE
I think it's why people (even maybe the LIEs) are struggling to separate it, because money making schemes (which is a classic of the LIE entrepreneur at all levels) gets confused with Te. It's why descriptions say LSEs make good 'directors'. Profit, utilization, these things are associated with Te, but so are many other things not related to money. Money making schemes is a peculiarity specifically for Se HA.
There's plenty of SLIs in low paying, low stress jobs (Se ignoring) and they're quite happy with it, actually they look for it (Se rejecting in Delta quadra in general), avoiding the power driven, competitive money making even risky environments for stability and security.
Yeah, those are other ways
“We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand.” Randy Pausch
Ne-IEE
6w7 sp/sx
6w7-9w1-4w5
Sure is, just have to spend a bit of time around them to see it.Yeah, those are other ways
Okay, that's actually a good analysis.IMO LIE
I think both EIEs and LIEs are often interested in fame, but conquering is more of aI think EIEs and LIEs with Se HA secretly want to conquer the world but they cant because their 2DSe is just too useless
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
XEEs usually seem to use Te as a defense when under attack by Ti. For example, when criticized for doing something unsystematically they'll often question the efficiency of the system as leverage. In normal situations however you rarely see them bring Te subjects to the forefront. Guess this polr-defense usage of the HA could apply to any type really.
yeah my exact thought after reading that first sentence was, all Te valuers justify whatever they're doing if under attack by Ti with recourse to notions of efficiency that's precisely where they diverge (assuming they're in the logical realm, Fi could counter a Ti attack too). i think the more apropo preclusion of polr hits is to act in a way thats logical in terms of Te so as to prevent Ti from being exposed and raised, which is how I see Te cover for Ti in the context of IEE specifically. in other words, if the logic of actions is sufficient then no one usually bothers to bring in Ti except the extreme pedants and various government clerks
THIS. Nobody is ever aggressive to me physically. Hell most avoid eye contact.
So accurate!I think ENTjs have a problem with weakness if the so-called "weak" person is 1) unaware of their weakness, and 2) unconcerned with improving it. ENTjs, IMO, respect people who are self-aware and earnestly endeavor to make things better. Complacency, apathy, and frivolity seems to bother them the most. I think my ENTj dad has put up with me and my issues for so long because he realizes that I'm a very intense, committed person at the core, and that I'm always seeking improvement. If I were content with stagnation, he would be very troubled.
As for Joy's initial question about ENTjs and theirPoLR, it can manifest itself in any number of ways. Here are a few examples of
1) My Dad: very conscientious about his exercise routine and his overall health, but only after many years of trial and error. He sees it as critical to his mental well-being and personal goals. Also, he's had to deal with the specter of severe illness (heart disease, panic attacks, and melanoma) hindering his personal progress, so I know that he, like anyone else, doesn't want his long-term goals to be sidelined by health issues. As for other.
As for his physical appearance, he's very fit and cleans up very nicely for his job, but doesn't seem to care what he looks like in his free time. He usually looks a bit disheveled, but in a very endearing way.
2) Close friend #1: very athletic and active, yet used drugs recreationally (nothing harder than marijuana, though) and had frequent, unprotected sex. She was quite reckless because she didn't seem to realize that she, as a human being, was inherently vulnerable and that the things she read about in health class could actually happen to her. She seemed to look only at the spiritual, existential aspects of life as opposed to the concrete, mundane aspects of it. She wasn't aware of her body until she had a health issue that MADE her aware of it, forcing her to change her lifestyle.
3) Friend #2: a 23 year-old alcoholic. Apparently he's quite slovenly as well. It's tragic, because he's an incredibly smart person with a great career. Yet because he's so smart and so self-aware, I have faith that he will address his problem and recover. I just hope he can find a good support group to do it with, because he goes to bars largely to socialize with others, and not being able to do that could leave a very big void in his life.
So yeah, I get the sense that ENTjs are just so focused on their long-term goals, internal thoughts, and tasks to be completed that they really don't give a darn about their bodies and their physical surroundings. It probably seems unimportant in their scheme of values.
Conversely, some look to substances to alleviate certain fears/neuroses (as all types do) and don't know when to stop.
I know this is somewhat tangential, but I have an ENFj friend (who's also an alcoholic, sadly) who abuses the daylights out of her body. She doesn't seem to care, though, and believes she'll that alcohol will only expedite the onset of death, which we will all face (I've tried and tried to break her out of this destructive thought pattern, but to no avail). She doesn't realize the actual physical toll it will take on her, though, in the form of dependency, liver disease, dementia, depression/anxiety, jaundice, etc. So yeah, not understanding/appreciating the actual physical effects of something and only looking at the metaphysical effects of it may be a manifestation of
Spot on..
I think the hidden agenda comes out from the PoLr function.
The reason I think so is that the HA is something you're trying to work on and the PoLr function completely deflates it as unimportant.
I think it would go like this:
An LIE would want to go on a wilderness trip and they are packed and ready to go find adventure with images of whitewater rafting, grizzly bears, elk grazing in the misty morning in their heads.
Then their SEI mother asks them if they packed a scarf. The LIE has no idea why that would matter.
Then the SEI asks if he has enough food since he doesn't want to be hungry. The LIE thinks it doesn't matter if I'm hungry 'I'm going on an adventure'.
The SEI then asks if he packed enough pairs of socks. The LIE is finally fed up and snaps at the SEI telling her that none of these things matter and storms off.
The Barnum or Forer effect is the tendency for people to judge that general, universally valid statements about personality are actually specific descriptions of their own personalities. A "universally valid" statement is one that is true of everyone—or, more likely, nearly everyone. It is not known why people tend to make such misjudgments, but the effect has been experimentally reproduced.
The psychologist Paul Meehl named this fallacy "the P.T. Barnum effect" because Barnum built his circus and dime museum on the principle of having something for everyone. It is also called "the Forer effect" after its discoverer, the psychologist Bertram R. Forer, who modestly dubbed it "the fallacy of personal validation".
Since my Si and Fi are so inept, I have to observe myself doing things in order to understand what I want to do and how I really feel.
I've reached a point in my career where I don't have to do anything that I don't want to. Fortunately, I consider work to be entertainment.
So what do I find myself doing? Almost 100% of the time, I'm planning future stuff.
I was asked to repair a friend's snowblower the other day, and because I used to be a machinist, I said I'd do it. It would give me a chance to do something with my hands that involves machinery. Like repairing a car, or working on a bike, which I also used to do.
And I found myself dragging my feet, as if I were fighting some unseen resistance to actually working on the thing.
2D Se: You can see the world clearly enough, but physically acting in it isn't your immediate go-to response. Future planning is where it's at.
Lol. How did he feel about it?
If I'm in this situation I'll try to taste that pie and hope it's good. And would remember it's as a weird experience.
Situation like this (force me to use more Se to get out of the situation) usually make me feel excited more than pissing off (still piss though),
Last edited by Tarnished; 01-09-2022 at 04:13 PM.
Wow...someone else actually knows how to prioritize information. Good job. Not being sarcastic, most people in the typology community are like "well, I know I relate the most to Te, but...I'm conflicted because I use my right hand for everything instead of my left" or something like that. Stereotyping, basically. Half the time when I read type me posts I want to facedesk about a hundred times because of this. I kind of gave up on reading them.
Se-HA and Si-PoLR in LIEs, with a touch of Ni.
View of an LIE's garage, containing, left to right, a Tsudakoma CNC rotary table with cables, a mobile Planet Destroyer, and a Palantir on a tripod.
https://imgur.com/a/WgJXf7o
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