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    @carla - Yeah, you folks don't seem to get it. But just picture, in your mind, if I am right (and I am), and that I am Tj (and I am), and I have to listen to people constantly making remarks about not being Tj.

    I mean, what if I just kept saying you really don't seem like an INTj, Carla. You really don't seem Tj - have you considered being INFj?

    Why are you so sure you are INTj, and not INFj?
    Why is it so clear to you?


    Perhaps - perhaps - I can use your reasoning to help explain to you why I feel the way I do. When you come up with your reasoning, let me know. Tell me why you are not INFp, or ISFj, while you are at it. I am actually quite serious - and it is for a reason, not just to spite you.


    edit: left out the 'p'
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    @carla - Yeah, you folks don't seem to get it. But just picture, in your mind, if I am right (and I am), and that I am Tj (and I am), and I have to listen to people constantly making remarks about not being Tj.
    But you see, in my opinion, saying that you are sure of being "Tj" is not helpful. If you think you could possibly be INTj, ISTj, ENTj or ESTj - one type in each quadra - then I think you're not looking at the right things.

    EDIT: also, I did not mean it badly at all by suggesting you might be ISFj.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    I bring a book about things I am interested in, and I usually bring such a book whenever I go anywhere, because I do not enjoy just sitting around unproductively. Today after church, we went to breakfast, as always, and I brought the book with me in there.... I really wanted to read it then (but I did not out of politeness basically, and knowing the ESFj doesn't like me to do that), because I ate faster than everyone else, and the gabbing was getting so boring... it is a big deal because some of the old ladies have this as their big sunday fun, and my ESFj relative who I goes with it enjoys it. But it is completely useless to me, and I do it basically for her, out of respect. I did get a free meal, though, as well.
    FWIW, this is an accurate description of my own behavior generally.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  4. #84
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    Wait wait ... I'm upset that UDP is not my dual? What?! When was the last time that INTjs were my Dual? And at the time he thought he was ISTj, I never really jumped for joy... lol, I actually told him many things that could contradict his being ISTj when we were talking. The fact that he began to question S vs N seemed a little more plausible to me than this sudden change to ESTj is all


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    And if Expat, and to an extent Joy, is advocating the ISFj for consideration, then it means that he too has picked up on some dominant usage of ., which is obviously shared between the ISFj and the INFj.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    And if Expat, and to an extent Joy, is advocating the ISFj for consideration, then it means that he too has picked up on some dominant usage of ., which is obviously shared between the ISFj and the INFj.
    What I have picked up is Fi>Fe preference, as well as Te>Ti and possibly Ni/Se, and perhaps Te as dual-seeking rather than dominant. However, these are suggestions, not positions I am defending strongly.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    But you see, in my opinion, saying that you are sure of being "Tj" is not helpful. If you think you could possibly be INTj, ISTj, ENTj or ESTj - one type in each quadra - then I think you're not looking at the right things.
    It doesn't matter where we start our investigation of UDP's type (or anyone else's for that matter) as long as we start with something that is certain. And it happens to be an obvious fact (that is not reasonable to doubt at this stage of the typing process -- and most likely never) that UDP is a rational logical type, that is a Tj. We should not get side-tracked by people's wild speculations, especially not when we have this seemingly secure foundation to build from.

    None of us has any reason what-so-ever to doubt that UDP is a Tj type. It is disrespectful and ignorant to think otherwise. Of course I am not accusing you of that, Expat, since you clearly realize that UDP really is a Tj -- but some others show the same kind of irritating attitudes and behaviours towards UDP that they (and/or others) have often shown towards me and what I have said about my type.

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    You feel no reason to doubt that, but nothing is certain, particularly in the case of someone none of us has met in person.

    I have no reason to doubt he's XTXj, but I have no reason to assume he couldn't possibly be anything else either.

    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    None of us has any reason what-so-ever to doubt that UDP is a Tj type. It is disrespectful and ignorant to think otherwise. Of course I am not accusing you of that, Expat, since you clearly realize that UDP really is a Tj -- but some others show the same kind of irritating attitudes and behaviours towards UDP that they (and/or others) have often shown towards me and what I have said about my type.
    Please do not make any assumptions regarding what I "clearly realize" or not, whether on UDP's type or yours, or anyone else's.

    As for "disrespectful and ignorant" -- this is a lame attempt at intimidation.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Please do not make any assumptions regarding what I "clearly realize" or not, whether on UDP's type or yours, or anyone else's.
    You can of course correct me on that, if you don't realize that UDP is a Tj, but you will not do that, because if you did you would make a typing mistake. You simply must realize that UDP is a Tj if you are a competent socionist, and I know that you think that you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    As for "disrespectful and ignorant" -- this is a lame attempt at intimidation.
    Bullshit. It is the truth, and you know it.

  11. #91
    Creepy-bg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Please do not make any assumptions regarding what I "clearly realize" or not, whether on UDP's type or yours, or anyone else's.
    You can of course correct me on that, if you don't realize that UDP is a Tj, but you will not do that, because if you did you would make a typing mistake. You simply must realize that UDP is a Tj if you are a competent socionist, and I know that you think that you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    As for "disrespectful and ignorant" -- this is a lame attempt at intimidation.
    Bullshit. It is the truth, and you know it.
    if he's a competent socionist (which he is) he'll know that nothing is set in stone or can be assumed as 100% fact where typing is concerned (especially over the internet)

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    As for "disrespectful and ignorant" -- this is a lame attempt at intimidation.
    Bullshit. It is the truth, and you know it.
    So you presume to know the truth, besides caring, about what is "disrespectful" - yeah, a whole lot of PoLR here.

    And you also presume to know what I "know"--
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    @ Bionicgoat, Expat, and others

    I know for certain, that based on the information UDP has provided us with, we have no legitimate reason to doubt that he is a Tj type. If we doubt his Tj-ness anyway, we are accusing him of either consciously lying about himself or being a complete fool -- and that is equivalent of being disrespectful towards him. He is entitled to feel irritated by such behaviour, and so am I, and those who disagree with me on that do not deserve my respect as serious socionists.

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    He hasn't sound irritated, and it has nothing to do with you.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    If we doubt his Tj-ness anyway, we are accusing him of either consciously lying about himself or being a complete fool -- and that is equivalent of being disrespectful towards him.
    That's not an attitude contributing to a free discussion of ideas.

    If you feel entitled to say, at any moment, "stop. I don't want you to doubt my Tj-ness, because I see that as disrespect and insulting"', then you are on the path towards intellectual tyranny and suppression of any free discussion.



    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    He is entitled to feel irritated by such behaviour, and so am I, and those who disagree with me on that do not deserve my respect as serious socionists.
    But -- why should those who disagree with you care the least about that?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    UDP will be LSE when tcaudilllg thinks of something sensical.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    My perspective: If he's content settling on ESTj right now, we shouldn't try to talk him out of it. The time for questioning and debate has come and gone. The only way he's going to decide that he's not ESTj is by getting used to the idea and going about his days with that assumption, then noticing that there are things that don't quite fit for an ESTj. If that happens, the issue of his type may be reopened. In the meantime, we don't have to agree, but I see no reason to continue to argue. We've all already stated our opinions, haven't we?

    Too much introspective is bad for anyone. If he's ready to stop introspecting and just live his life, I say we should just let him.
    SEE

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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    I wouldn't contradict anything written there.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    And if Expat, and to an extent Joy, is advocating the ISFj for consideration, then it means that he too has picked up on some dominant usage of ., which is obviously shared between the ISFj and the INFj.
    What I have picked up is Fi>Fe preference, as well as Te>Ti and possibly Ni/Se, and perhaps Te as dual-seeking rather than dominant. However, these are suggestions, not positions I am defending strongly.
    In which case, there are multiple people who have been suggesting that perhaps UDP is dominant in some form.
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    Oh, I think it's possible. But ISFj rather than INFj. I don't think INFj is likely at all. Also, I think lots of male ISFjs would be mistyped as ESTjs.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    I will say that I don't get a "delta vibe" from him at this point, but I will reserve judgment and give it a bit of time.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Oh, I think it's possible. But ISFj rather than INFj. I don't think INFj is likely at all. Also, I think lots of male ISFjs would be mistyped as ESTjs.
    Ridiculous. ISFjs and ESTjs are easily distinguished. And the things UDP has said about himself clearly contradict any ISFj hypothesis. I suggest that people check how he has described himself in posts from the past.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    I suggest that people check how he has described himself in posts from the past.
    You mean when he was totally convinced he was IJ temperament and Fe dual-seeking? His very first, probably unselfconscious descriptions, when he joined the forum, were deleted by him ages ago.



    @UDP: I'm not saying this to put you down. I'm just skeptical of this "just look at how people describe themselves" especially when they already think they are one type, and have read about socionics already. Then we have to look at what and how people say things when they are not consciously trying to describe themselves. If anyone wants to take offense at this approach, be my guests.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  26. #106
    Creepy-bg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    I suggest that people check how he has described himself in posts from the past.
    You mean when he was totally convinced he was IJ temperament and Fe dual-seeking? His very first, probably unselfconscious descriptions, when he joined the forum, were deleted by him ages ago.



    @UDP: I'm not saying this to put you down. I'm just skeptical of this "just look at how people describe themselves" especially when they already think they are one type, and have read about socionics already. Then we have to look at what and how people say things when they are not consciously trying to describe themselves. If anyone wants to take offense at this approach, be my guests.
    it makes perfect sense to me

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    It does not really matter to me - I am not going to try to convince anyone of anything any longer. You can still discuss things, and I may answer direct questions, other than that I will not interfere or comment on anything - I already did the research. But I will pay attention and keep my mind open to understanding myself, whatever type I may fall into.



    Oh, and here is a link to my original thread - thank you for reminding me about that, as it was one of the things I was referring to at the outset of the thread, when I said there was more I wanted to post. I erased things a long time ago, but much was quoted by other people. Analyze as you wish:

    http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...?p=45133#45133


    PS: I sound quite young.
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

  28. #108
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    And with that said, I will be calling the discussion in this thread to a close. ::bangs gavel::

    [spoil:09f8d48ba4]We will reconvene to discuss the topic again in one month. [/spoil:09f8d48ba4]
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    edited for clarification:

    I do not understand why you said that, Logos - could you explain your meaning/intention?
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

  30. #110
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    Am I the only one that really, really can't see an LSE going on these introspective tirades that UDP has become so famous for?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  31. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    Am I the only one that really, really can't see an LSE going on these introspective tirades that UDP has become so famous for?
    no, you're not at all. in the case of my estj brother, udp looks like he's writing a goddamned autobiography comparatively.
    6w5 sx
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  32. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    What are you getting at? You can leave the discussion forever if you want , but, what are you getting at?
    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    It does not really matter to me - I am not going to try to convince anyone of anything any longer. You can still discuss things, and I may answer direct questions, other than that I will not interfere or comment on anything - I already did the research. But I will pay attention and keep my mind open to understanding myself, whatever type I may fall into.
    The party of the first party (UDP) called to question the thread and indicated that they were "not going to try to convince anyone of anything any longer," thereby making further discussion pointless. Then the party of the second party (thats me) decided to at least indicate a semi-formal end to discussion through the traditional usage of the gavel, which is used to signify either the beginning or end of a formal hearing, parliament, or assembly, but the party of the second party then signified that the members of the assembly will reconvene to discuss the original topic at hand pertaining to the type of the party of the first party (UDP) once the party of the first party has had some time to settle into their newly discovered type.
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  34. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    Am I the only one that really, really can't see an LSE going on these introspective tirades that UDP has become so famous for?
    I think this is the reason why some people are having a hard time seeing UDP as an ESTj... even smart ESTjs are more interested in working with their hands than you'd expect a regular and very frequent poster here would be most of the time.

    I think Thomas Edison is a very good example of an extremely intelligent ESTj:

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Thomas Edison quotes:

    Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. (ESTj work ethic, EJ)

    The doctor of the future will give no medicine, but will interest her or his patients in the care of the human frame, in a proper diet, and in the cause and prevention of disease. (Si > Ni.... though in all fairness to his Ni, I don't know how many people alive back then could have predicted that the health care system would end up being run by insurance and pharmaceutical companies)

    There is no expedient to which a man will not go to avoid the labor of thinking. (Intelligence, but I also think what he had in mind here has to do with the ESTj work ethic)

    We don't know a millionth of one percent about anything. (Ne, I guess... maybe Te)

    If I find 10,000 ways something won't work, I haven't failed. I am not discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward. (ESTj work ethic with a strong Positivist Ne influence)

    Anything that won't sell, I don't want to invent. Its sale is proof of utility, and utility is success. (Te)

    Be courageous. I have seen many depressions in business. Always America has emerged from these stronger and more prosperous. Be brave as your fathers before you. Have faith! Go forward! (Not all that sure what to attribute this to... this seems like the opposite something an ESFj would say, so it's not just about a Ne hidden agenda)

    Being busy does not always mean real work. The object of all work is production or accomplishment and to either of these ends there must be forethought, system, planning, intelligence, and honest purpose, as well as perspiration. Seeming to do is not doing. (Te, intelligence, Delta quadra values in general)

    Discontent is the first necessity of progress. (Ne)

    Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction--faith in fiction is a damnable false hope. (weak Ni, weak Fi, sensing, Te)

    Everything comes to him who hustles while he waits. (weak Ni, EJ)

    Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration. (ESTj work ethic, EJ)

    Great ideas originate in the muscles. (ESTj work ethic, EJ)

    Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something. (Ne, Te > Ti, but I don't know the context in which this was said)

    I am proud of the fact that I never invented weapons to kill. (Fi, unvalued Se)

    I find my greatest pleasure, and so my reward, in the work that precedes what the world calls success. (Si > Se, EJ, ESTj work ethic)

    I have friends in overalls whose friendship I would not swap for the favor of the kings of the world. (Fi > Fe, though obviously any type can have this attitude)

    I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. (I see EJ in this, as well as dynamicism, and perhaps Ne?)

    I never did a day's work in my life. It was all fun. (Serious, EJ, ESTj work ethic perhaps, Ne perhaps)

    I never did anything by accident, nor did any of my inventions come by accident; they came by work. (ESTj work ethic, EJ, tactics)

    I start where the last man left off. (ESTj work ethic, tactics)

    If we did all the things we are capable of, we would literally astound ourselves. (intelligence perhaps, Ne)

    It is astonishing what an effort it seems to be for many people to put their brains definitely and systematically to work. (Intelligence)

    Just because something doesn't do what you planned it to do doesn't mean it's useless. (Te, Ne)

    Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up. (Intelligence perhaps, Ne perhaps, ESTj work ethic perhaps)

    Maturity is often more absurd than youth and very frequently is most unjust to youth. (Ne)

    Nearly every man who develops an idea works it up to the point where it looks impossible, and then he gets discouraged. That's not the place to become discouraged. (Intelligence, wisdom, EJ, Ne)

    Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. (Fi, unvalued Se)

    One might think that the money value of an invention constitutes its reward to the man who loves his work. But... I continue to find my greatest pleasure, and so my reward, in the work that precedes what the world calls success. (I thought this one was already in here? In any case, ESTj work ethic, unvalued Se and Fe)

    Our greatest weakness lies in giving up. The most certain way to succeed is always to try just one more time. (ESTj work ethics, EJ)

    Religion is all bunk. (lmao did Edison really say that? I'd say intelligence, Te/Fi > Ti/Fe, Ne... and yes, I realize that there are plenty of athiest and agnostic Ti/Fe types in the world)

    Restlessness and discontent are the first necessities of progress. (EJ mostly, Ne)

    Show me a thoroughly satisfied man and I will show you a failure. (omg I love Thomas Edison! This sentence speaks against the main problem I've had with Delta, especially Delta STs, in general, which leads me to believe that intelligence plays a large role in this mindset. I can see EJ restlessness in this statement though.)

    The best thinking has been done in solitude. The worst has been done in turmoil. (Si maybe? Perhaps not type related? I dunno)

    The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. (this was in here before with slightly different working... oh well, ESTj work ethic, EJ)

    The three great essentials to achieve anything worth while are: Hard work, Stick-to-itiveness, and Common sense. (I think this statement is a very large part of the very essence of ESTj)

    The value of an idea lies in the using of it. (Te, perhaps sensing to some extent)

    There is no substitute for hard work. (ESTj ESTj ESTj)

    There will one day spring from the brain of science a machine or force so fearful in its potentialities, so absolutely terrifying, that even man, the fighter, who will dare torture and death in order to inflict torture and death, will be appalled, and so abandon war forever. (ahahahahahahahahaha yeah, the threat of a nuclear holocaust didn't end war... I really don't think anything can. Humans will never be that wise or enlightened. It is in human nature to hate and to harm other humans. Anyways, this shows shitty Ni and unvalued Se)

    There's a way to do it better - find it. (Te, Ne to a lessor extent)

    They say President Wilson has blundered. Perhaps he has, but I notice he usually blunders forward. (dynamicism perhaps, Te perhaps)

    To have a great idea, have a lot of them. (Ne maybe)

    To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. (Ne)

    Waste is worse than loss. The time is coming when every person who lays claim to ability will keep the question of waste before him constantly. The scope of thrift is limitless. (Si and Te, I guess)

    We don't know a millionth of one percent about anything. (Ne, maybe Te)

    What you are will show in what you do.

    When I have fully decided that a result is worth getting I go ahead of it and make trial after trial until it comes. (EJ perhaps)

    Your worth consists in what you are and not in what you have.
    Even though he was brilliant, he clearly valued working with his hands, dealing with the physical things that were right in front of him.

    Now, I'm not saying that UDP isn't ESTj by any means. There can be a lot of variety within different people of the same type. And any type can behave in any manner.
    SEE

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  35. #115
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    Are you getting paid by Edison's decendents to post those quotes Joy? That's like the fifth time I've seen them on the forum

  36. #116
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    hey udp i didn't read the whole thread and i only skimmed your post, but it looked well considered.

    FWIW smilex went through some similar sort of questioning process before he concluded he is an estj. so maybe that's just what y'all have ta do ta get to ya type??

    now go find your dual and your life will be meaningful behond measure....

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

  37. #117
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    Thanks.
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by diamond8
    hey udp i didn't read the whole thread and i only skimmed your post, but it looked well considered.

    FWIW smilex went through some similar sort of questioning process before he concluded he is an estj. so maybe that's just what y'all have ta do ta get to ya type??

    now go find your dual and your life will be meaningful behond measure....
    So if we all go through a similar sort of questioning process, we would all be ESTjs? Woah, that's far out. I so got to lay off from overdosing on the time-traveling telephone booths.
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
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  39. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Quote Originally Posted by diamond8
    hey udp i didn't read the whole thread and i only skimmed your post, but it looked well considered.

    FWIW smilex went through some similar sort of questioning process before he concluded he is an estj. so maybe that's just what y'all have ta do ta get to ya type??

    now go find your dual and your life will be meaningful behond measure....
    So if we all go through a similar sort of questioning process, we would all be ESTjs? Woah, that's far out. I so got to lay off from overdosing on the time-traveling telephone booths.

    nah that's not what i'm tryhing to say....i noticed a correlation between the process of smilex and the process of udp that i had not noticed with other people....i'm sure others struggle with finding their type, too, but not in the same way.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    Thanks.
    YW

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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