LIIs/INTjs social skills, meeting new people, shyness and leadership

[Logos]

Over Spring Break I went to Washington DC with a group of friends in a campus organization. By the end of the DC trip, I had developed a reputation among the freshmen as an excellent conversation partner who can sustain an interesting conversation in which I would be genuinely interested in their lives. This past weekend I went on the annual beach retreat for the same campus organizations where a similar theme appeared as well. In fact, as I later was explicitly told by my friends during the beach trip, this quality had apparently made me a valuable and sought after road companion.

Over the course of these two retreats I slowly began to realize that the LII has a certain strength even in social situations through my own conversations and interactions. LII are for the most part are socially awkward. There is little getting around this basic reality. There is a great disdain on our parts for "small talk" which is a form (if not the main form) of social ritual that we for some reason have difficulties in overcoming. It baffles us because it is so empty and meaningless. It is saying something merely for the act of saying something; it is a ritual in which once completed the two parties go their separate ways in the satisfaction of appeasing the laws of the societal deities. Despite this social awkwardness, the LII does have a great (and often underflexed) strength in social interactions: analytical questioning. But how can analytical questioning be used socially?

When the LII uses analytical questioning in conversations and avoids (or bypass) the smalltalk, the LII is able to avoid part of the stigma for social awkwardness. Also by asking questions, the LII is able to avoid talking or revealing too much about themselves. The other key is that the LII focuses on one person at a time. So the LII lets people talk about themselves which is pushed further through LII questioning, which is far less harsh and more willing to entertain all ideas than the ILI. The question which I know I asked the most (and had pointed out to me by others) was the question why? Why do you think that? Why does that interest you? Why X and not Y? The what is not nearly as important (or memorable for the LII) as the reasoning behind the what. By doing such, the conversation partner believes that the LII has a sincere interest in them as individuals, since not only are you learning about them, but you are getting them to rethink their beliefs.

I may expand this later, but for now, I am just going to post this as it is.

[UDP]

In my opinion the real leadership capabilities of LIIs is overlooked and under-tapped.

[Exodus]

When the LII uses analytical questioning in conversations and avoids (or bypass) the smalltalk, the LII is able to avoid part of the stigma for social awkwardness. Also by asking questions, the LII is able to avoid talking or revealing too much about themselves. The other key is that the LII focuses on one person at a time. So the LII lets people talk about themselves which is pushed further through LII questioning, which is far less harsh and more willing to entertain all ideas than the ILI. The question which I know I asked the most (and had pointed out to me by others) was the question why? Why do you think that? Why does that interest you? Why X and not Y? The what is not nearly as important (or memorable for the LII) as the reasoning behind the what. By doing such, the conversation partner believes that the LII has a sincere interest in them as individuals, since not only are you learning about them, but you are getting them to rethink their beliefs.

An excellent point. Using Ti in conversation is tricky.

Yesterday I used a similar strategy in talking with an ESFj. I asked her about her primary goals in life, etc.

[Logos]

In my opinion the real leadership capabilities of LIIs is overlooked and under-tapped.

I agree, but an LII's approaches to leadership will be different from the LII approach to social interaction. But I do believe in the necessity of a thread dedicated to LII-style leadership and their respective strengths and weaknesses therein.

[UDP]

I believe what you described to be an important part of LII leadership -- that is to say, making real connections and really understanding how a person works. That sort of communication is very important

[FDG]

In my opinion the real leadership capabilities of LIIs is overlooked and under-tapped.

I might agree to a certain extent, but it's true only for the ones that have left away their pretense at home.

In any case, good call Logos. Just make sure not to tell awkward jokes about number theory. An INTj I know was doing so well, until he started telling those maths jokes nobody except me understood.

[Exodus]

What an INTj shouldn't do also bears mentioning. There has to be some content to what an INTj is saying. INTjs should not merely express an opinion about something (e.g., "That movie was awesome."), that kind of behavior is best left to ESFps. Yet having no opinion whatsoever is just as bad (more INTp than INTj). The golden mean is to have reached a well-reasoned, impersonal conclusion about a topic that is interesting to other people.

[Logos]

In any case, good call Logos. Just make sure not to tell awkward jokes about number theory. An INTj I know was doing so well, until he started telling those maths jokes nobody except me understood.

Thanks, but I can assure you that I have no desire or knowledge of math jokes to tell. As a matter of fact, I do not have a large collection of jokes in general.

What an INTj shouldn't do also bears mentioning. There has to be some content to what an INTj is saying. INTjs should not merely express an opinion about something (e.g., "That movie was awesome."), that kind of behavior is best left to ESFps. Yet having no opinion whatsoever is just as bad (more INTp than INTj). The golden mean is to have reached a well-reasoned, impersonal conclusion about a topic that is interesting to other people.

Would you mind expanding this section, because this would be quite interesting.

[Exodus]

What an INTj shouldn't do also bears mentioning. There has to be some content to what an INTj is saying. INTjs should not merely express an opinion about something (e.g., "That movie was awesome."), that kind of behavior is best left to ESFps. Yet having no opinion whatsoever is just as bad (more INTp than INTj). The golden mean is to have reached a well-reasoned, impersonal conclusion about a topic that is interesting to other people.

Would you mind expanding this section, because this would be quite interesting.

The worst situation an INTj can be in socially is not having anything interesting to say on a subject. This isn't so bad when you're around extroverts, because they will fill in the gaps for you.

Most introverts have a similar problem - not having any input to give. But in the INTj's case, it has to fulfill TiNe purposes. ESFs can get away with relying on personal presence, so the content of what they are saying doesn't matter so much. I sometimes catch myself (on the forum and IRL) simply giving agree/disagree responses, which benefit no one.

UDP has mentioned the INTj's problem of being too neutral. My interpretation: I often feel like I have everything philosophically figured out (Ij?); the answers come so easily that I don't think to explain them to other people. So the stuff I find interesting is usually esoteric. I like this questioning strategy; it's a good way to circumvent both these problems (You rely on what others find interesting, rather than on your internal standard. This is why I enjoy teaching.). Though, again, it works best on extroverts, or introverts you know well.

Also, use Ne humor to your advantage. It doesn't have to be mathematical, but make it weird enough to get people's (especially Si types') attention. This, unlike the other strategies, could have the downside of alienating Resolute types, however.

All of this relates to Rick's article here:

http://socionics.us/practice/ego.shtml

Someone should write one of those for each type.

[Kirana]

good point. however, i think, also dependent on the situation. i find that it is often more acceptable to get to 'why' by asking questions that don't exactly ask 'why'. because asking why repeatedly can annoy many people who have never bothered to work out why they do what they do or think what they think, nor are they interested to find out (ESFjs for example, don't bother to think of the why, but tend to be interested to go along and find out if you're asking). with such persons, your analytical questioning is seen as a threatening gesture, an attempt to undermine their position.

if instead you ask more neutral questions like 'what do you do if this happens?' or 'how does that work in this instance?' or 'let me try and understand: it means in this situation you then would do this?' - it sort of draws the other person in of their own volition. i think it's mainly because you've helped him partway already, vs. a 'why do you think that?' kind of question. however, such rephrasing of questions took me a couple of years at least to practice, and require more patience.

[tcaudilllg]

LIIs get confused about how to contact people. They consider both old and new means and can't tell which will be the most effective. This is a big issue with LII PoLR. It's not that LIIs don't want to meet people -- they just don't know HOW.

[Krig the Viking]

Indeed. LIIs are not sure of how people will respond to their attempts to communicate, and so have no way of knowing which communications strategy will be most effective. Without a strategy, they find themselve unable to take the initiative and act, leaving them friendless and alone. Unless they can find an extravert to help them integrate with society. Preferably an ESE.

[xerx]

The alternative is to go ahead and act without a strategy anyway. It's called being ENTp and it only works 1/16 of the time.

[Krig the Viking]

The alternative is to go ahead and act without a strategy anyway. It's called being ENTp and it only works 1/16 of the time.

Haha, yes!

I think this actually has more to do with Fi than Se. The LII is more aware than the ILE of the potential relationship-related consequences of social blunders, and is therefore more cautious. Conversely, the ILE is more effective at affecting the Fe mood of a social situation, and by using that can get away with more social blunders than an LII ever could.

[xerx]

Haha, yes!

I think this actually has more to do with Fi than Se. The LII is more aware than the ILE of the potential relationship-related consequences of social blunders, and is therefore more cautious. Conversely, the ILE is more effective at affecting the Fe mood of a social situation, and by using that can get away with more social blunders than an LII ever could.

Plus we just don't care about most social blunders.

[electric sheep]

Patience is golden. I can't really develop a connection on the spot, I try to wait for a good opportunity. Making blunders is one of those things you just gotta work through, no ones perfect. The way I try and develop a connection with someone can seem really awkward and mechanical, so I usually get along better with people who don't care about connection making and just want to talk about fun and interesting things.

[Currere]

I don’t think I fully processed the thread title. My post was talking more about approaching people I already knew, even if I’ve only been introduced to them in the past. It’s much easier to approach my friends, but people who I think are neutral with me are where I have the main problem. At least with people who I’m pretty sure don’t like me, I can just avoid interaction (probably just like they’re doing). People that I’m not sure about are what my Fi has trouble with most. Reading those relationships probably takes a lot more attention to subtle clues (:S).

As for meeting people, I can remember an experience at a camp in the Fall. The first year I went wasn’t too bad, because an ILE friend of mine went, and I mostly stuck with him, though I made efforts to not be a parasite. The second year was what I remember more. My ESE friend was there, just like the year before, but he was, quite understandably, everywhere at once with a whole lot of people. As a result, I also didn’t want to appear a desperate tag-a-long, so I wasn’t with him very much. During the camps, I remember barely speaking a word. I was probably rather reserved, but not because I wanted to be.

I described my interaction to another ILE and LII shortly after: “The problem is I'm either incredibly quiet and uninvolved, or I'm awkward/poorly timed and overdo something or step on some kind of toe (at least from my POV).”

If this is likewise for a lot of LIIs, how are we gonna stay afloat in a new social arena without it seeming like a pool full of piranhas?

[Serious Name]

The alternative is to go ahead and act without a strategy anyway. It's called being ENTp and it only works 1/16 of the time.

This.

Most times I just go head first into a social situation without any forethought as to how to appropriately handle shit. Social blunders abound, but I don't really care if I break any as long as nobody is offended.

[Currere]

From personal experience, I find that I have two usual responses to initiating contact. I either am about to do it, and then shrink away when I doubt myself and try to consider my “worthiness” or closeness to the person in successfully communicating with them, or I kinda rush in with no plan and then feel awkward and embarrassed afterward.

I definitely think this is tied to Fi. I know myself that when I want to approach someone or (re-)start a conversation, I often try to “read” whether or not I have the right standing with the person to do so. Sometimes I think I’m too harsh with myself in this area, but I find being completely natural in social situations is very hard and kinda confusing.

[jason_m]

From personal experience, I find that I have two usual responses to initiating contact. I either am about to do it, and then shrink away when I doubt myself and try to consider my “worthiness” or closeness to the person in successfully communicating with them, or I kinda rush in with no plan and then feel awkward and embarrassed afterward.

I definitely think this is tied to Fi. I know myself that when I want to approach someone or (re-)start a conversation, I often try to “read” whether or not I have the right standing with the person to do so. Sometimes I think I’m too harsh with myself in this area, but I find being completely natural in social situations is very hard and kinda confusing.

I agree with everything written here.

[GapMinding]

Hi, I am trying to get a better understanding of this subject, and to try to find ways to be less shy. I know I am going to touch a key point of the social behavior of the LII/INTj, and maybe it should only be discussed between LIIs, but I am at a point where I want to know more. So I am going to start with my understanding of the subject.

I don't like speaking about my internal emotions and feelings because they are often misunderstood (even by myself). I would need to explain everything. But it is very difficult because it would require to go very deep, as I have a very different way of thinking than the other people. I find it easier to stay mysterious rather than having to manage relations where the other is mistaken about my motivations or tries to manipulate my emotions and feelings.

Now it is easy to deduce which situations would allow me to open more. But I cannot expect every social situation to suit my wishes. Still, I want to try to be more open about myself.

- Why is it so hard to be understood ?
- I identified our shyness with the fear of being manipulated. But I think there is also the wish to keep relations simple, whereas once I start to express emotions and feelings, the relation becomes more complex and draining, especially if the other seems to have behavior expectations. As for myself, I don't know which is the most important factor. Do you know of any other factor ?
- What are your solutions for coping with your shyness ?

PS: a thought that crossed my mind when I read my text: it seems to me that sometimes I feel constrained by what I have told others about myself. Like once I said something, I must act accordingly and constrain my behavior so that it makes sense to the others. I like to be coherent and to be seen as someone reliable, but ultimately it can interfere with my independency and my will to follow new possibilities.

[Creepy-Snaps]

Hey GapMinding, welcome to the forum!

Being shy isn't necessarily type related, although it seems more typical of introverts. I know a couple LII's who are self-confident and 'outgoing', enough to socialize and be liked, despite not being chatterboxes.

The great thing about social 'skills' is that they can be learned. And now that you know what you want, you can work towards achieving it.

Also, keep in mind that relationships, even friendships, don't have to be perfect. It's ok to make mistakes. You don't need to understand your own feelings perfectly, and the good thing is, with over 7 billion people in the world, someone somewhere is bound to feel the same way about things as you do, and understand you. Truth is not everyone is going to understand you, and the good thing is they don't need to.

I'll leave you with a video from Vanae, a 'life and dating coach' who I think has some helpful tips for overcoming shyness:

[nickelslick]

I could have written that post myself. Welcome to the forum, GapMinding.

Mountain Dew, I don't think it's so much about lacking social skills. Superficial relationships for pragmatic purposes are easy enough to maintain (although I'll admit I often have problems there too - sometimes people misjudge my intentions and try to get closer to me and then feel hurt when I resist). I'd say it's more of a need for people to understand us if they are going to truly be able to form a connection with us. For an LII, a good grasp of reality is critical for success in anything we do - if anyone wants to form a relationship with us they need some understanding of who we are to make it work, and vice versa.

[GapMinding]

Hey Mountain Dew, thanks for your answer. You are right, shyness is not specific to LIIs. But maybe the reasons for shyness are different depending on the type, and thus the means to overcome it

Hi nickelslick, I think I know what you are talking about: with a person of the opposite sex who seems to be interested in myself too much whereas I am not interested in her. That is a difficult situation for me. I often end up avoiding her until she doesn't seem interested in me.

I am not a chatterbox myself. I can be at a family evening and speak maybe 5 sentences during the whole dinner. With other people I am now getting more confident with not speaking when I have nothing to say, even at work. Though for some people it can be very perplexing, after a time they understand me better.

I should also say that my job is social worker. I work with children and youth with disabilities. People often expect us to be extraverted/enthusiastic, even though there are obviously introverts in these jobs too. I can be outgoing. I know a few tactics that I use to be more outgoing (I will write them at the end of this post). But now I would like to find a behavior that corresponds better to my true self.

What I understand now is that it takes time for other people to know me. But I am not good at explaining/describing myself, and I often found that it pays more to wait, because then people see my qualities and they begin to trust me, and then we can begin to build the relationship little by little. But this requires time. And it is not very good if you want to find a job or want to build a network. So I wonder if I could help it, and how I should do it.

Tactics I use to be more outgoing:
- Copying. I try to copy other's approaches that I have seen before either from my family, my friends or other people. I can copy their mood, their sentences, their intonations, their gestures, how they move their eyes and their face. The larger your repertory, the better you can adapt to different situations, mix the approaches and even come up with new ways. The most important point is that it allows you to experiment and see what works with who and what is better suited to convey what you want to say.
- Having a goal. Choose a goal before going to a social event. It can be anything: getting a better understanding of social relations, trying to find the Socionics types, trying to make people laugh, trying to subtly control the subject of conversation directing it to a predefined subject or preventing a popular subject to be discussed, trying to modify how you come across to other people, trying to get new answers to a question you are asking yourself, …
- Use an extrovert. Either you take your own friend or you go to conversations where there is already one. You don't want to speak to him directly (at least not at the beginning), but try to introduce new ideas or to ask a few questions about the discussion while not becoming the center of attention.

[Esaman]

Piece of information I found interesting is that LIIs are classified as "merry" in Reinin dichotomies. Which among other things means:

"2.'Getting to know someone' happens naturally, and they are well aware of the purpose(s) for which they are meeting. The proper emotional distance is easily established, adapted/regulated, and manipulated, and they easily decrease distance through their emotional 'brilliance'. A person's name (and other formalities) are peripheral to their relation with and interest in them, and thus they don't care much about formal introductions.."

While that ability may not be especially strong in LIIs and is strongly conditional on confidence, dualisation and so on, I found it comforting to realize that it is actually there.

[GapMinding]

Yes, that's true about the person's name. It takes some time and effort for me to remember the names, and I tend to pay no attention to formal introductions and to disregard formal informations. In fact I notice that I tend to forget the informations I get from someone at the beginning of a relationship. So usually all the questions that I ask at the beginning of a relationship, I will need to ask them again at a later time. Though I try to be more careful nowadays. It is as if as long as I don't have a global understanding of someone, it is hard for me to memorize new informations.

But as for regulating the emotional distance, I am a bit lost. I never really considered that before, and I am not sure how it can manifest… But it is true that I can change my displayed mood and behavior depending on whether I want to talk to someone, and it seems to work.