View Poll Results: Fiona Apple's type?

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23. You may not vote on this poll
  • ILE (ENTp)

    0 0%
  • SEI (ISFp)

    0 0%
  • ESE (ESFj)

    0 0%
  • LII (INTj)

    0 0%
  • SLE (ESTp)

    0 0%
  • IEI (INFp)

    15 65.22%
  • EIE (ENFj)

    2 8.70%
  • LSI (ISTj)

    0 0%
  • SEE (ESFp)

    0 0%
  • ILI (INTp)

    6 26.09%
  • LIE (ENTj)

    0 0%
  • ESI (ISFj)

    1 4.35%
  • IEE (ENFp)

    0 0%
  • SLI (ISTp)

    0 0%
  • LSE (ESTj)

    0 0%
  • EII (INFj)

    2 8.70%
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Thread: Fiona Apple

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Her music sort of repulses me. I don't know why. Maybe it is her energy.
    I've never been able to get my head round Fiona Apple either, I don't know why, I thought I should have liked her, maybe the same way I always thought I should like dinner parties.

  2. #42

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    IEI-Ni 4w5 maybe, but not 4w3 or 3. She hates industry, the idea of being a pop star, and is only happy when she's alone. Maybe 1, because she definitely projects the image of seeking truth and I relate to the idea of her enduring much pain so that she is a better example for a pure, ideal person.

    I've got a lot of problems, but I'm really good at intuiting what I need to do to be happy with whatever I create. I know when to stop myself, I know when to start, I know when to leave something alone. I guess I just kind of indulge that completely, and so I just take my time.
    She has a weird brain. Probably similar neuron over packing as seen in depression and autism. Actually, very left brained in some ways, as she is always going on about purpose and she has an articulate vocabulary. She's said she suspects her C section birth may have resulted in too many mirror neurons.

    But I digress. Type and neuropsychology have yet to converge. In the meantime, I think she is more like an INTx. She just loves to think by herself, as she has said. loves it. eats that shit up. Just sitting there, two in the morning, obsessive thoughts. JK. She could be ILI e4/5. She is way too nice and self-sacrificial for INTx, though, which makes me ultimately lean towards IEI-Ni.

    So nice.
    Last edited by Limitless; 12-09-2016 at 02:24 AM.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebird View Post
    I think she's IEI-Ni

    @Limitless, do you think this could be an E4 or E3 thing?

    I noticed you said you relate to Lana Del Ray as well.

    I relate to a few people, not many. It's pretty rare for me to relate to anyone irl in a way that I see myself in them, outside of trying to empathize with others, or something along those lines. The people I can relate to most, from their writing, are Virginia Woolf and J.D. Salinger, which are both Delta NF 4w5's. I can also relate to Susana Kaysen from Girl, Interrupted, whose supposedly an ESI 4. I related to all of these people way before I knew anything about typology.

    So there could be something to it. I don't notice many people on forums or irl saying they relate to other's openly. Most of the ones I have seen openly relating to celebrities are Beta NF 4w5, 3w4, 4w3's (that I've noticed), and it seems they are usually relating to others that are possibly 4's or 3w4's. This makes we wonder if it could possibly be enneagram related. Just something to think about.
    I relate to Layne Staley, Kurt Cobain, Jim Morrison, Marilyn Monroe, Eminem and a few others, pretty well. In one of my threads I said my celebrity parents would be Eminem + Marilyn Monroe = me (that is how I felt at the time). I relate to some fictional characters even more. Could be some enneagram connections to it. Like when I listen to the Digital Daggers I feel like they say the same things I want to say.

    Edit: when I look at my list of names (including ones not shared) it appears I relate best to artistic, poetic, talented, somewhat eccentric, depressed, sometimes suicidal, drug addicts. :/

    Edit: and definitely a bit of madness thrown into the mix.
    Last edited by Aylen; 02-01-2015 at 09:11 PM.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



  4. #44
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    Not sure why this woman can't be LSE

  5. #45
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    Introverted, Ni all over da place. I always took her for either Ni-IEI with a heavy Ni emphasis, or Ni-ILI.

    Just-for-fun fake logic:

    I say F.A. could be Ni-IEI or Ni-ILI.

    Limitless says he is like Fiona Apple.

    I and others said Limitless reminds us somewhat of Jinxi.

    The types most offered for Jinxi were Ni-IEI and Ni-ILI.

    Therefore, Socionics is real.

  6. #46
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    "I was told so many times when I was a kid, 'I can't be friends with you, you're too intense, you're too sad all the time.' I really thought that when I made the first album that everyone would understand me, all the people who weren't my friends would become my friends."

    "The worst pain in the world is shame. I spend a lot of time trying to not do anything bad to anyone, but you can't live your life and not hurt people."

    :/ Not currently in my enneagram swing at all but I see plenty of potential E4 from her but not sure if I see Beta NF. Like some have mentioned the fact that she's a four can make her seem more Beta or associated with Beta than she may really be due to the intensity, drama, moodiness, etc, people associate with beta NF. So far she seems ego to me. Anyone know of any potential famous musician E4 delta NFs to compare?

  7. #47
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GOLDEN View Post

    I and others said Limitless reminds us somewhat of Jinxi.

    The types most offered for Jinxi were Ni-IEI and Ni-ILI.

    Therefore, Socionics is real.
    That was Alomoes. http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1069882

    They joined around the same time though.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



  8. #48
    Feeling fucking fantastic golden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    That was Alomoes. http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1069882

    They joined around the same time though.
    Well, only two of us agreed on Jinxi, then. (I.e., you were talking about someone else.)

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by GOLDEN View Post
    Well, only two of us agreed on Jinxi, then. (I.e., you were talking about someone else.)
    I was talking about the same person. I just didn't know them by that name until they were banned.

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...as-been-banned

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



  10. #50
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    How someone can see common traits between Limitless and Alomoes beyond rudimentary Socio-lines ....I don't know. It's too much of a mental challenge. This boy and Jinxi, trifling_whatever.

    Limitless is a clear IEI-Fe which takes him away from any ILI/IEI ambiguity.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Limitless View Post
    ^I'd love hearing in case anyone has any examples
    I found a fascinating article on her a while back... Soo good! http://www.vulture.com/2012/06/hidin...al-hermit.html

    I'd love being able to write stuff like this some day. @GOLDEN I hope you don't mind I'm asking, but would you know how I would get to the place where I'm able to interview people like her, and make enough money off it? I know you generally work more with books but I figured I might as well ask in case you're at all familiar with it.
    Ha, it's sweet you think I'm expert enough to answer your questions. The field you're talking about there is music journalism.

    I can throw out some personal anecdotes and whatnot, fwiw . . .

     


    I know a lot of un- and underemployed journalists. First, the quality of journalism itself declined because newspapers increasingly lost their independence after media conglomerate acquisitions. And second, the Internet happened.

    My first internship was at a biweekly alternative political magazine, and I really respected what the journalists there were doing. Old-fashioned investigative journalism, dealing with injustices, representing "little people," exposing government wrongdoing. The editor in chief went on to write a couple of influential and widely read books and still reports on government. Can he make a real living this way? Eh. Not so much, his wife is the main breadwinner.

    Journalists are traditionally considered very social creatures, and I've found that in a sense this is true, and it's not necessarily about introversion / extraversion. For me, that kind of journalism wasn't a great fit. One of the things that made this lead editor so accomplished was his social network and his social awareness. Like, everywhere we went, people knew who he was, and I'm not talking about just bigwigs, but about ordinary people he'd affected. And they were kind of more important to his work.

    For example, I went with him to a restaurant once, and the owner came out and greeted him with huge affection and enthusiasm, and later it turned out our meal was free, and the editor always ate there free, because he had helped the restaurant owner and his family through immigration and to procure loans to establish their business. And the editor did it just because he was asked to, and he had about zero ego in regard to stuff like this. It was kind of the role he played in a social network.

    That's incredibly cool. It's not exactly the kind of person I am, though -- to have my finger on the pulse of everything happening across a broad public sector. I can be pretty good about helping people who are in bad straits, but it's generally because they're in my personal sphere and I know they are suffering and need help, and I'm the obvious or only person to give it. Part of why I don't like to turn away from people I know need help is, I understand the broader social forces that created their situations, and I can't judge or blame or ostracize them in the way I see some people do. But I'm not able to stand for a big social agenda like those journalists were.

    Music journalism is a little different. I have a friend in Austin who majored in journalism and graduated university a few years ago, and she now works for SXSW doing media / communications ... saw her recently and she's not thrilled with her job. It's music-centric, though.

    There are some online publications that specialize in music and seem to lean heavily on interns. You can also start your own music publication online. The guy who wrote that article you liked, I didn't check but he could be a freelance journalist who specializes in music. As a book editor I also have some specialties, first children's / juvenile lit, and second, music. Those are both somewhat healthy segments of the book pub industry, for various reasons.)

    And as for online . . . I studied with someone this summer who is a journalist by training and in charge of a big division of Time magazine that churns out paid online content for other entities. (And met another person doing something similar at The Economist.) These guys didn't start out intending to do this kind of writing and reporting. It's about their survival now, and I'm not quite sure how they feel about these developments. Some issues of morality and integrity are involved, but it's also not really in their control.

    Their work is usually called "content marketing" -- which you can find out more about if you're curious.

    I guess what I'm saying here is, journalism is in flux.

    And I don't see journalism or editing as a "career" per se. I see these as skills that can be applied in various contexts. (I think this must be a mindset applicable across a lot of sectors now.) Journalism is a great skill that I wouldn't mind having more of, but as I said, I let that fall away a long time ago because I think it takes a certain kind of person to excel at it and I'm not the type. But editing, writing, all kinds of media communication stuff is valuable to know.

    In general, Limitless, there's not a lot of money in publishing and it's an especially uncertain field, but quality writing is still important to people. If I were you, and curious about journalism, I'd see if I could attend an informational session at one of the better J-schools and try to find out where people at the vanguard of the field think things stand. And maybe try to get one or more professors at one of those schools to give me some advice. (J profs tend not to be Ivory Tower types.) And ofc, practicing journalists. You could try to email the person who did that F.A. interview/article you liked, and see if he'll answer some of your questions.

    In general, look for people in the industry you want to work in for advice. Some people might ignore you, but the "career adviser" people generally have it right when they that people are happy to help out, and that it actually flatters them that you see them as someone who can give advice. And it makes them feel good to help you.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebird View Post
    Possibly Alanis Morrisette and Adam Duritz as Delta NF 4 musicians? I can't think of anyone else right now that could be...

    I wouldn't says its 'fake logic' to wonder why someone sees themselves in someone else and how that relates to others that are doing similar relating. When I see someone say they relate to someone else, I always wonder what they see in that person that they relate to, and wonder if it a recognition of how they may, or how they think ( idealized version of themselves) they see things, in a similar way or through a similar lens. I think in the case of 4's it could be the recognition of another's feeling of defectiveness or some other traits associated with 4's. People we pass everyday could be like this, but we wouldn't realize it as much as some celebrities, especially some writers who get their inner thoughts more out in the world, instead of silently passing us by on the street. So I think when someone recognizes this in a famous person, it might be easier to relate to. It's not exactly being like that person or 'liking' that person. In my case, the people I relate to, I recognize this specific 'brand' of sadness that they convey. And in the case of 4's, it could be someone that could finally understand them. Because of course no one else does. I mean, people can 'like' certain celebrities, but I think being able to relate to them is completely different, and can make one wonder why. That's how I pulled by '4's relating' idea together...Makes sense to me, maybe not others, though..lol
    I think you're right about this. Maybe it was in second grade a boy pointed out that I had a mole on my face. He teased me relentlessly and got other boys to join in. They made me cry and this went on for a couple of years. I probably didn't even think about having one, since it was just another part of me, until then and it became an obsession to get rid of it. I was embarrassed to tell my family about the teasing. Then I think it was probably my aunt that told me Marilyn Monroe had a "beauty mark" in the same spot. It must have been my aunt who told me, since she loved old movies and we watched them together. When I realized that about Marilyn it made me feel better and I felt a little less defective and a bit more special. As I got older the boys started to like it anyway but I didn't know that at age 8.

    I started reading about her, here and there, but mostly just the glamorous stuff when I was very young. There wasn't much I could get my hands on as a preteen. After I got married and divorced in my teens, and other fiascoes, I started reading everything I could find on her because I could see how our lives were a bit similar except mine lacked all the fame and notoriety. The only musician, author, actor or other well known person I ever chose to read biographies of were the ones that I personally identified with through their behavior, quotes about their thoughts and feelings, and something about their eyes. I love a lot of musicians, I don't identify with Courtney Love for example. I do identify with Kurt Cobain. I don't identify with "Sid Vicious" but I identified with Nancy Spungen (during a period of my life when things were out of control and I was living a similar lifestyle in NYC).

    Most of these associations I started making with others started when I was very very young. Identifying with people others called trash, immoral, or whatever. I empathized with them. Maybe if I had not been born with a mark I would have been an E7 or something.


    Last edited by Aylen; 02-02-2015 at 05:13 PM. Reason: typo

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



  13. #53
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Limitless View Post
    Also, I realized something! I relate to everybody in a way, but at the same time I don't relate to anybody fully. When I see people like Fiona Apple and Lana Del Rey, I relate to things that we both have that I have been taught to dislike based on overall attitudes towards those traits of people around me. And since they seem like negative traits, they catch my attention, so these are the people I automatically associate with myself when I think of who I can relate to. And when I saw the Fiona Apple thread I felt like I needed to express that to see what other people's reactions would be, because I felt like I needed someone to tell me I'm alright just as I am, but now I know I don't have to change that particular trait!
    You are "Limitless". Don't ever change that.

    I like Lana just fine and listen to her but I just don't care for Fiona's particular sound. She might be an awesome person but some of her music is like nails on a chalkboard to me. I don't have that reaction to Lana. I do to Alanis though. Me, personally, not likely her music makes it easy for me to ignore her as a person since there are billions of others on this planet and she is just one of those I will never find compelling enough to learn about. I have felt more drawn to the story of some unknown shaman in the rainforest whose story I will know better than Fiona's. I probably could relate to her but I have no desire to seek out that kind of connection. I hope this what you were looking for as an explanation since I have no other.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olly From Wally World View Post
    :/ Not currently in my enneagram swing at all but I see plenty of potential E4 ... Anyone know of any potential famous musician E4 delta NFs to compare?
    could it be her wing type rather than her main type?

  15. #55
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    I really do not see her as EIE... Ni dom, a bit dry...

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Limitless View Post
    I was wondering the same thing Maybe some enneagram fanatic could offer a suggestion, or at least explain the differences between 4w3 vs 3w4 and 5w4 (What they are like, what they are like when unhealthy, why they act the way they would)?
    That would be a good question for the enneagram forum if you'd like to make one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Limitless View Post
    When I talked to EJ Arendee (video typology guy) about her type, he originally typed her as IEI, but later actually thought EIE, which I was surprised by so I'd like to learn a little bit more about the differences between the two types.
    I won't write out her interviews in all the gory detail as you can read them for yourself. Suffice it to say that all of the mirror types are quite distinct. For one, they are a part of completely different benefit and supervision chains; for another, they don't overlap on multiple Reinin dichotomies: http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...omies#Overview

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    IEI imo.

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    “I could liken you to a werewolf the way you left me for dead, but I admit that I provided a full moon / And I could liken you to a shark the way you bit off my head, but then again I was waving around a bleeding open wound / But you were such a super guy ‘til the second you get a whiff of me / We're like a wishing well and a bolt of electricity / But we can still support each other / All we gotta do’s avoid each other / Nothing wrong when a song ends in a minor key . . . The lava of a volcano / Shot up hot from under the sea / One thing leads to another / And you made an island of me . . . . I could liken you to a lot of things, but I always come around / 'Cause in the end I'm a sensible girl / I know the fiction of the fix . . . . We're like a wishing well and a bolt of electricity / But we could still support each other / All we gotta do’s avoid each other / Nothing wrong when a song ends in a minor key . . .”



    “Oh, the periphery / They throw good parties there / Those peripheral idiots / Always have a bite to bare / Bear it if you can / If you really want to / Go to the periphery / Have them celebrate your name / Have them forge you a pedigree and then you'll be left to run the races lame / But if you want, if you think it's worth it — go now, with me / ‘Cause I don't appreciate people who don't appreciate / All that loving must've been lacking something if I got bored trying to figure you out / You let me down / I don't even like you anymore at all / Oh, the periphery / I lost another one there / He found a prettier girl than me / With a more even-tempered air / And if he wants her, he should get her / ‘Cause I think he thinks she's worth it / And maybe they'll move from the periphery / Buy themselves their own plot of land . . . I'll just be hoping he makes a good family man / And if he finds himself yearning for his throne on the silly side / There’s nothing wrong as long as he's learning / Besides, you can take it up with his brethren or with his bride / Just not with me / ‘Cause I don't appreciate people who don't appreciate / All that loving must've been lacking something if I got bored trying to figure you out . . . You let me down / I don't even like you anymore at all / Oh, the periphery . . . Stay away . . . Away, away / Stay away, away . . .”



    “I was staring out the window the whole time he was talking to me / It was a filthy pane of glass / I couldn't get a clear view / And as he went on and on, it wasn't the outside world I could see / Just the filthy pane that I was looking through / So I had to break the window / It just had to be / Better that I break the window than him or her or me . . . . Better that I break the window than forget what I had to say / Or miss what I should see // Because the fact being that whatever's in front of me is coloring my view / So I can't see what I'm seeing; in fact, I only see what I'm looking through // So again I done the right thing / I was never worried about that / The answer's always been in clear view / But even when the window’s clean, I still can't see for the fact that when it’s clean it's so clear I can't tell what I'm looking through . . . .”



    “I'm undecided about you again / Mightn't be right that you're not here / It's double-sided ‘cause I ruined it all / But also saved myself by never believing you, dear / Everything good, I deem too good to be true / Everything else is just a bore / Everything I have to look forward to has a pretty painful and very imposing before . . . . I have too been playing with fifty-two cards / Just ‘cause I play so far from my vest / Whatever I've got, I've got no reason to guard / What could I do but spend my best . . . . And after waiting, fighting patiently on my knees / All the other stuff tired itself out first and not me / And in its wake appeared the touch and call of a different breed / One who set to get me wise, and got me there and then got me // And what a thing to know what could be instead / Oh, what a blessed curse to see / Took the agenda from its place on my bed / Made a merry paramour of me / O' Sailor, why'd you do it? / What'd you do that for? / Saying there's nothing to it and then let me go by the boards / O' sailor, why'd you do it? / What'd you do that for? / Giving me eyes to view it as it goes by the boards . . .”




    Robert Christgau:

    http://www.robertchristgau.com/get_a...me=Fiona+Apple

    Extraordinary Machine [Clean Slate/Epic, 2005]

    Instead of delivering the music a sharp-tongued breakup record by an empowered young female would imply—if not folk-rock plain and simple, then emotional piano-woman pop—Apple adapts Broadway show tune to confessional mode. Although Mike Elizondo adds momentum, Jon Brion's colors still predominate, and the melodic and structural contours are all Apple's. Ira Gershwin she's not; Betty Comden she's not either. But she wouldn't be half as inspiring if they were what she was aiming for. A-


    The Idler Wheel Is Wiser Than the Driver of the Screw and Whipping Cords Will Serve You More Than Ropes Ever Do [Epic, 2012]

    A funny thing will happen once you've figured out that the title is the stupidest thing about an album that's damn catchy after all. It'll sound like a piano record—a defiantly primitivist, raucously avant-garde lounge singer's piano record, with a really nutty drummer: he'll-bang-on-anything (and-get-her-to-pitch-in) producer Charley Drayton. There are few arpeggios, and not much tone color and such. She just executes simple figures and hammers thick chords, including a few boogie-woogies just to make a point. She also sings—words, yes, but more decisively, sounds. Not background music. But you could sure call it mood music. A-


    http://www.robertchristgau.com/xg/bn/2012-07.php

    Hearing Her Pain


    As the synthesizer displaced the electric guitar over the past two decades, there was a parallel development in acoustic music: the folkie ingenue strumming nylon strings gave way to the pop polymath tickling ivorine keys. All in their early thirties, the four major successes in a line traceable to Laura Nyro are Regina Spektor, Nellie McKay, Norah Jones, and Fiona Apple. The first two are obviously minor leaguers compared to Jones and her megaplatinum 2002 Come Away with Me or topic-at-hand Apple, who released the most acclaimed album of 2012 in June. But all are songful New York-identified originals with a fan base, and only McKay, whose 2010 Home Sweet Mobile Home gestured futilely at middlebrow convention after four quirky-to-kooky keepers, is without a current release. Apple and McKay have Broadway roots, the Russian-born Spektor was a classical prodigy, and Jones studied jazz piano in college. None has more than a peripheral relationship to rock and roll as it's normally conceived, and only Jones, whose fondness for country music surfaced with a spooky Hank Williams cover back when, has shown any interest in all the folkish musics on life support gathered under the rubric of Americana.

    Ragtime piano did as much to transform 20th-century pop as blues guitar, but the piano these women care about is the one in the parlor rather than the barrelhouse, its discipline harmonic rather than rhythmic. Hence they often come up short on groove even when they hire out their production, as Spektor and Apple have, to Dr. Dre graduate Mike Elizondo. The upside is their melodic facility. In an era when the indelible tune is the province of R&B hit-paraders, Nashville neo-to-pseudo-traditionalists, and old-timers who trust the mettle of blues-based forms that will never dominate pop again, all these piano players have shown a knack for writing songs that are pleasurable up front and intelligent long term. And though I've never been a parlor kind of guy, they've enriched my life as a listener and a critic.

    Granted, I find Jones too subtle even if or because she's the nicest person ever to go double-decaplatinum, and after half a dozen tries can neither confirm nor deny credible rumors that her quiet . . . Little Broken Hearts vents the anger to which I'm sure she's entitled. Although McKay is an animal rights crank, which is to say not my type, she's also a stand-up comedian, which is to say bésame mucho--a spunky, sprightly eccentric who has a history of stirring things up just because she can. Although spunky and sprightly right up to her new What We Saw from the Cheap Seats, Spektor is such a committed humanist that should her pop career flounder you can imagine her touring senior residences, where the ones about returning the oldie's wallet and masterpieces imprisoned in their own timelessness would win her a quick callback. Which leaves us with our topic at hand, who is certainly the most brilliant of these very talented women and almost as certainly the hardest to like.

    This is not to suggest she's hard to fall in love with. Fiona Apple has had femme fatale written all over her since she debuted in 1996 at 18 with the determinedly bathetic Tidal, which—in a now-vanished record-biz epoch still brimming with dreams of precious metal and aesthetically complicated celebrity—went triple platinum behind a Grammy-winning single about doing a good man wrong and a video featuring the teenager in her underwear. Having beaten her three competitors to the post by five years, however, Apple has since been outdistanced by all of them: The Idler Wheel (we'll get to the full title later) is only her fourth album, and comes seven years after Extraordinary Machine. How this could be is indicated by the recording history of Extraordinary Machine, in which--with the aforementioned epoch on its last legs--Apple rejected the orchestrated iteration produced by the estimable Jon Brion and insisted on re-recording with the estimable Elizondo. Some prefer one version, some the other; they're different, sure, but since this is her shapeliest set of songs either way, few find the differential as stark as Apple does. She's a diva, a perfectionist, a pain in the ass. And this determines the kind of respect she gets--as a musician, and as a star in whom listeners invest their fantasies and ambitions.

    The music is why we're here. Vocally Apple has more size and texture and character and drama than her fellow piano women. Her melodies and arrangements are always forceful and never predictable. The fascination she exerts, however, extends well beyond these aesthetic niceties and doesn't necessarily begin with them. Post-MTV, you'd figure all these women must work harder at their looks than Laura Nyro. But where the blonde McKay and brunette Jones are prom-queen pretty and the curly-headed Spektor retains some homegirl, Apple has always been an exotic, her enormous eyes depthless and her oval face evolving from knowing gamine to sultry analysand as the years piled on their pain. For her many female admirers, her beauty is presumably ancillary—when Jessica Hopper calls Apple "the martyr-saint, crucifying herself so that we might live drama-free," she's praising a soul sister who exposes sides of herself Hopper herself has chosen not to indulge. With men, however, the attraction has often seemed more fraught — imbued with a sexually charged preference for intensity over reliability, sparked by the kind of let-me-take-you-away-from-all-this fantasy men know in their hearts is doomed and secretly prefer that way. One achievement of The Idler Wheel is that it's quashed such fantasies. No longer is she seen as a tortured beauty. In 2012 she's strictly a tortured artist.

    This is progress, no doubt about it. But I don't know how an emotionally engaged male heterosexual Fiona fan could have conceptualized her any way but romantically. There are 33 songs total on Tidal, the 2001 album with the 90-word title known as When the Pawn, and the two versions of Extraordinary Machine. Tidal's typically disconsolate "Sullen Girl" ponders depression per se, Extraordinary Machine's startlingly cheerful "Waltz" begins "If you don't have a song to sing / You're OK," and every one of the 31 others obsesses on disconnects with men. For her first decade, then, Apple's "crippling doubt" and "mirror-upon-mirror confessionalism," "her pains, her insecurities," "her neuroses," her "icky little feelings," "her emotions . . . too messy for the relatively staid language of most pop music”—to cherry-pick The Idler Wheel's raft of raves—all had the secret word "romantic" attached. She spent three albums elaborating her own dialect of pop music's lingua franca. In principle, love songs are OK with me, although I prefer a broader emotional palette than Apple's and have often noted that happy ones are harder to get right. But there are other things to write about, and I don't just mean partying hearty and returning people's wallets. Friendship, for instance. Mortality. Your mother. God and so forth. The pit bull you took in off the street. The little club you play occasionally. Hell, even art as such. You can have messy emotions about any of these things.

    That the three albums share a lingua franca doesn't mean they're interchangeable. The bestselling Tidal is sodden juvenilia by me, When the Pawn deep and dark and palpably disturbed, Extraordinary Machine a stab at sociable sanity—Elizondo was clearly brought in to smooth out the songs, not hype up the beats. And on The Idler Wheel Apple has definitely gotten on top of her disconnects--verbally, anyway. She spends less time blaming the guy or lacerating herself. The "companion" of the lead "Every Single Night" is explicitly her own "brain" even if that companion percolates heat in her belly, and "Daredevil" right after looks askance at her own risk-taking. But "Daredevil" also addresses a presumably male other, and so it goes once again: every song after the first is about love lost, failed, or otherwise flawed. Midway through comes the oft-quoted theme statement "How can I ask anyone to love me / When all I do is beg to be left alone," and I can just imagine horny fantasists thinking, If she's going to put it that way, maybe I really should settle for Jennifer down the hall. It's a game-changing line with several parallels on The Idler Wheel, which is longer on the kindness and self-knowledge barely glimpsed in Apple's younger songs: "Valentine" with its "I root for you"; "Jonathan" with its "I like watching you live"; "Werewolf," where she admits flaunting the scent of blood; "Anything We Want," where she imagines a future consummation. Also noteworthy is a finale called "Hot Knife." Many have observed that the entire song is a crude, eccentric sexual metaphor. No one has indicated when Apple has been so pro-sex before, because she hasn't.

    My close readings constitute a scoop of sorts--the huzzahs for Apple's "self-conscious self-absorption and gritty self-loathing" rarely mention countervailing tendencies. One reason is probably that, however much Apple's tortured image is valued for enhancing her blessed artistic integrity, nobody truly believes she's much of a lyricist. That full title: The Idler Wheel Is Wiser than the Driver of the Screw and Whipping Cords Will Serve You More than Ropes Will Ever Do. To find out what an idler wheel is, read some other review, or Google it. I'll merely point out that "the driver of the screw" is otherwise known as a screwdriver and that most English speakers would just say "ropes ever will." Only then it wouldn't scan, or rhyme, that stuff. Apple does this sort of thing a lot — horrible lines like "Adagio breezes fill my skin with sudden red" or "Whose reality I knew, was a hopeless to be had" or "And last night's phrases / Sick with lack of basis." The Idler Wheel improves on this tendency. Because silly is good, I even kind of like the "orotund mutt" / "moribund slut" rhyme others mock, although not the "white doves' feathers"-"hot piss" metaphor others find scintillating—much less its next line: "Every time you address me." ("Address"? Really? Who talks like that?) But remember—lyrics aren't why we're here. Music is.

    This is not a hooky album. Even compared to the earlier work it's not a hooky album. If like me you're skeptical about Fiona Apple in particular and pop avant-gardism in general, you could play it four or five times without hearing a single song whole. If you're like me, however, by then you'd admire producer-drummer Charley Drayton's junkyard percussion, which colors this music more decisively than Apple's piano, which is deployed sonically and rhythmically, including several boogie-woogie figures. And soon thereafter, if you're like me, the whole thing will come together in a whoosh — the kind of formally risky pop that, when it happens to work, provides pleasures almost as bracing and enduring as "Over the Rainbow," "She Loves You," or "I Want It That Way."

    Because it's jagged on top and melodically facile deep underneath, the music too discourages vicarious romanticism. It impels any interested bystander to hear Fiona Apple as a tortured artist rather than somebody to love. Yet as a pop polymath whose artistic integrity is working hidden variations on teen ballad and Broadway heartsong, maybe she's finally become so accomplished that she's less tortured than she and everyone else thinks — on her way to more lovable, even. No matter how much she begs to be left alone, maybe the respect she's clearly earned means she deserves what she also can't stop begging for, else she'd be writing songs about God and her pit bull. I mean somebody to love. Just not anyone I know, please. Because speculate as we might, one thing is certain: Fiona Apple is always going to be a pain in the ass.’

    Barnes & Noble Review, July 19, 2012







    Robert Christgau:

    http://www.robertchristgau.com/get_a...me=Fiona+Apple

    Extraordinary Machine [Clean Slate/Epic, 2005]

    Instead of delivering the music a sharp-tongued breakup record by an empowered young female would imply—if not folk-rock plain and simple, then emotional piano-woman pop—Apple adapts Broadway show tune to confessional mode. Although Mike Elizondo adds momentum, Jon Brion's colors still predominate, and the melodic and structural contours are all Apple's. Ira Gershwin she's not; Betty Comden she's not either. But she wouldn't be half as inspiring if they were what she was aiming for. A-


    The Idler Wheel Is Wiser Than the Driver of the Screw and Whipping Cords Will Serve You More Than Ropes Ever Do [Epic, 2012]

    A funny thing will happen once you've figured out that the title is the stupidest thing about an album that's damn catchy after all. It'll sound like a piano record—a defiantly primitivist, raucously avant-garde lounge singer's piano record, with a really nutty drummer: he'll-bang-on-anything (and-get-her-to-pitch-in) producer Charley Drayton. There are few arpeggios, and not much tone color and such. She just executes simple figures and hammers thick chords, including a few boogie-woogies just to make a point. She also sings—words, yes, but more decisively, sounds. Not background music. But you could sure call it mood music. A-


    http://www.robertchristgau.com/xg/bn/2012-07.php

    Hearing Her Pain


    As the synthesizer displaced the electric guitar over the past two decades, there was a parallel development in acoustic music: the folkie ingenue strumming nylon strings gave way to the pop polymath tickling ivorine keys. All in their early thirties, the four major successes in a line traceable to Laura Nyro are Regina Spektor, Nellie McKay, Norah Jones, and Fiona Apple. The first two are obviously minor leaguers compared to Jones and her megaplatinum 2002 Come Away with Me or topic-at-hand Apple, who released the most acclaimed album of 2012 in June. But all are songful New York-identified originals with a fan base, and only McKay, whose 2010 Home Sweet Mobile Home gestured futilely at middlebrow convention after four quirky-to-kooky keepers, is without a current release. Apple and McKay have Broadway roots, the Russian-born Spektor was a classical prodigy, and Jones studied jazz piano in college. None has more than a peripheral relationship to rock and roll as it's normally conceived, and only Jones, whose fondness for country music surfaced with a spooky Hank Williams cover back when, has shown any interest in all the folkish musics on life support gathered under the rubric of Americana.

    Ragtime piano did as much to transform 20th-century pop as blues guitar, but the piano these women care about is the one in the parlor rather than the barrelhouse, its discipline harmonic rather than rhythmic. Hence they often come up short on groove even when they hire out their production, as Spektor and Apple have, to Dr. Dre graduate Mike Elizondo. The upside is their melodic facility. In an era when the indelible tune is the province of R&B hit-paraders, Nashville neo-to-pseudo-traditionalists, and old-timers who trust the mettle of blues-based forms that will never dominate pop again, all these piano players have shown a knack for writing songs that are pleasurable up front and intelligent long term. And though I've never been a parlor kind of guy, they've enriched my life as a listener and a critic.

    Granted, I find Jones too subtle even if or because she's the nicest person ever to go double-decaplatinum, and after half a dozen tries can neither confirm nor deny credible rumors that her quiet . . . Little Broken Hearts vents the anger to which I'm sure she's entitled. Although McKay is an animal rights crank, which is to say not my type, she's also a stand-up comedian, which is to say bésame mucho--a spunky, sprightly eccentric who has a history of stirring things up just because she can. Although spunky and sprightly right up to her new What We Saw from the Cheap Seats, Spektor is such a committed humanist that should her pop career flounder you can imagine her touring senior residences, where the ones about returning the oldie's wallet and masterpieces imprisoned in their own timelessness would win her a quick callback. Which leaves us with our topic at hand, who is certainly the most brilliant of these very talented women and almost as certainly the hardest to like.

    This is not to suggest she's hard to fall in love with. Fiona Apple has had femme fatale written all over her since she debuted in 1996 at 18 with the determinedly bathetic Tidal, which—in a now-vanished record-biz epoch still brimming with dreams of precious metal and aesthetically complicated celebrity—went triple platinum behind a Grammy-winning single about doing a good man wrong and a video featuring the teenager in her underwear. Having beaten her three competitors to the post by five years, however, Apple has since been outdistanced by all of them: The Idler Wheel (we'll get to the full title later) is only her fourth album, and comes seven years after Extraordinary Machine. How this could be is indicated by the recording history of Extraordinary Machine, in which--with the aforementioned epoch on its last legs--Apple rejected the orchestrated iteration produced by the estimable Jon Brion and insisted on re-recording with the estimable Elizondo. Some prefer one version, some the other; they're different, sure, but since this is her shapeliest set of songs either way, few find the differential as stark as Apple does. She's a diva, a perfectionist, a pain in the ass. And this determines the kind of respect she gets--as a musician, and as a star in whom listeners invest their fantasies and ambitions.

    The music is why we're here. Vocally Apple has more size and texture and character and drama than her fellow piano women. Her melodies and arrangements are always forceful and never predictable. The fascination she exerts, however, extends well beyond these aesthetic niceties and doesn't necessarily begin with them. Post-MTV, you'd figure all these women must work harder at their looks than Laura Nyro. But where the blonde McKay and brunette Jones are prom-queen pretty and the curly-headed Spektor retains some homegirl, Apple has always been an exotic, her enormous eyes depthless and her oval face evolving from knowing gamine to sultry analysand as the years piled on their pain. For her many female admirers, her beauty is presumably ancillary—when Jessica Hopper calls Apple "the martyr-saint, crucifying herself so that we might live drama-free," she's praising a soul sister who exposes sides of herself Hopper herself has chosen not to indulge. With men, however, the attraction has often seemed more fraught — imbued with a sexually charged preference for intensity over reliability, sparked by the kind of let-me-take-you-away-from-all-this fantasy men know in their hearts is doomed and secretly prefer that way. One achievement of The Idler Wheel is that it's quashed such fantasies. No longer is she seen as a tortured beauty. In 2012 she's strictly a tortured artist.

    This is progress, no doubt about it. But I don't know how an emotionally engaged male heterosexual Fiona fan could have conceptualized her any way but romantically. There are 33 songs total on Tidal, the 2001 album with the 90-word title known as When the Pawn, and the two versions of Extraordinary Machine. Tidal's typically disconsolate "Sullen Girl" ponders depression per se, Extraordinary Machine's startlingly cheerful "Waltz" begins "If you don't have a song to sing / You're OK," and every one of the 31 others obsesses on disconnects with men. For her first decade, then, Apple's "crippling doubt" and "mirror-upon-mirror confessionalism," "her pains, her insecurities," "her neuroses," her "icky little feelings," "her emotions . . . too messy for the relatively staid language of most pop music”—to cherry-pick The Idler Wheel's raft of raves—all had the secret word "romantic" attached. She spent three albums elaborating her own dialect of pop music's lingua franca. In principle, love songs are OK with me, although I prefer a broader emotional palette than Apple's and have often noted that happy ones are harder to get right. But there are other things to write about, and I don't just mean partying hearty and returning people's wallets. Friendship, for instance. Mortality. Your mother. God and so forth. The pit bull you took in off the street. The little club you play occasionally. Hell, even art as such. You can have messy emotions about any of these things.

    That the three albums share a lingua franca doesn't mean they're interchangeable. The bestselling Tidal is sodden juvenilia by me, When the Pawn deep and dark and palpably disturbed, Extraordinary Machine a stab at sociable sanity—Elizondo was clearly brought in to smooth out the songs, not hype up the beats. And on The Idler Wheel Apple has definitely gotten on top of her disconnects--verbally, anyway. She spends less time blaming the guy or lacerating herself. The "companion" of the lead "Every Single Night" is explicitly her own "brain" even if that companion percolates heat in her belly, and "Daredevil" right after looks askance at her own risk-taking. But "Daredevil" also addresses a presumably male other, and so it goes once again: every song after the first is about love lost, failed, or otherwise flawed. Midway through comes the oft-quoted theme statement "How can I ask anyone to love me / When all I do is beg to be left alone," and I can just imagine horny fantasists thinking, If she's going to put it that way, maybe I really should settle for Jennifer down the hall. It's a game-changing line with several parallels on The Idler Wheel, which is longer on the kindness and self-knowledge barely glimpsed in Apple's younger songs: "Valentine" with its "I root for you"; "Jonathan" with its "I like watching you live"; "Werewolf," where she admits flaunting the scent of blood; "Anything We Want," where she imagines a future consummation. Also noteworthy is a finale called "Hot Knife." Many have observed that the entire song is a crude, eccentric sexual metaphor. No one has indicated when Apple has been so pro-sex before, because she hasn't.

    My close readings constitute a scoop of sorts--the huzzahs for Apple's "self-conscious self-absorption and gritty self-loathing" rarely mention countervailing tendencies. One reason is probably that, however much Apple's tortured image is valued for enhancing her blessed artistic integrity, nobody truly believes she's much of a lyricist. That full title: The Idler Wheel Is Wiser than the Driver of the Screw and Whipping Cords Will Serve You More than Ropes Will Ever Do. To find out what an idler wheel is, read some other review, or Google it. I'll merely point out that "the driver of the screw" is otherwise known as a screwdriver and that most English speakers would just say "ropes ever will." Only then it wouldn't scan, or rhyme, that stuff. Apple does this sort of thing a lot — horrible lines like "Adagio breezes fill my skin with sudden red" or "Whose reality I knew, was a hopeless to be had" or "And last night's phrases / Sick with lack of basis." The Idler Wheel improves on this tendency. Because silly is good, I even kind of like the "orotund mutt" / "moribund slut" rhyme others mock, although not the "white doves' feathers"-"hot piss" metaphor others find scintillating—much less its next line: "Every time you address me." ("Address"? Really? Who talks like that?) But remember—lyrics aren't why we're here. Music is.

    This is not a hooky album. Even compared to the earlier work it's not a hooky album. If like me you're skeptical about Fiona Apple in particular and pop avant-gardism in general, you could play it four or five times without hearing a single song whole. If you're like me, however, by then you'd admire producer-drummer Charley Drayton's junkyard percussion, which colors this music more decisively than Apple's piano, which is deployed sonically and rhythmically, including several boogie-woogie figures. And soon thereafter, if you're like me, the whole thing will come together in a whoosh — the kind of formally risky pop that, when it happens to work, provides pleasures almost as bracing and enduring as "Over the Rainbow," "She Loves You," or "I Want It That Way."

    Because it's jagged on top and melodically facile deep underneath, the music too discourages vicarious romanticism. It impels any interested bystander to hear Fiona Apple as a tortured artist rather than somebody to love. Yet as a pop polymath whose artistic integrity is working hidden variations on teen ballad and Broadway heartsong, maybe she's finally become so accomplished that she's less tortured than she and everyone else thinks — on her way to more lovable, even. No matter how much she begs to be left alone, maybe the respect she's clearly earned means she deserves what she also can't stop begging for, else she'd be writing songs about God and her pit bull. I mean somebody to love. Just not anyone I know, please. Because speculate as we might, one thing is certain: Fiona Apple is always going to be a pain in the ass.’


    Barnes & Noble Review, July 19, 2012

  19. #59

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    I just want to say how wonderful a person this woman is:


    @thelocust has an avatar of Fiona Apple, and thelocust is EII. Let's revisit whether Fiona Apple could be EII, 9, 5, or sp/sx. Is it just because of vibes that people perceive her as this set of types? So/Sp seems way, way too social for her, for instance, but that is the consensus, so why?

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    Silke adduces a quote earlier in this process for why So first. But in that quote, Fiona was saying how she's not a very social creature... Being socially aware is not an inborn trait, but instead was likely what she found necessary to emphasize for some reason, ie fame was stupid and dehumanizing.
    She defies categorization! JK. 6 does not make any sense whatsoever. I really dont think she's six, but I am so biased, because I really love her. <3

    Edit: I also thought it was silly that people said Chris langan was a 6. Does that seem weird to anyone else? He spends his entire life living like what we call a 5, and we fail to even recognize this behavior as a 5? Seems like e typing can get silly quick.

    Her behavior suggests to me, again and again, that she so sweet/so morally conscientious/compassionate and sympathetic! I honestly think this sort of behavior, plainly telling a person that they are your hero, that you want to be of use to them, want them to feel happy, is about as "ethical" as people can be... Maybe not?

    Last edited by Limitless; 10-09-2017 at 03:29 PM.

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    I think Fiona Apple may have BPD, which makes her exceptionally more difficult to type.

    She comes off very Ne heavy, though.

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    If it's between EII and IEI, she's probably 4w5 sx/sp.

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    I'm curious why people think she's a Ni dom???

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    I think she could be sx/so 4w3
    "that it will never come again is what makes life sweet"
    - emily dickinson

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    Social:

    "that it will never come again is what makes life sweet"
    - emily dickinson

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    ESI* @ 14:27


    Last edited by Jake; 10-12-2017 at 02:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    Seems more social last to me... That speech she did was super controversial and pretty much killed her "mainstream" career. She was brave and went against the grain, exposed things for how they really were.

    Tbh, contra flow probably works best for Fiona. I'm going with sp/sx.

    *Edit*
    Watching her a bit more, she kind of vibes a bit like @lungs.
    She's saying "the world is bullshit" from a social point of view. Soc first and second feel like there are these invisible rules in society whereas soc lasts don't feel that social pressure and so have no reason to call it out and especially tell the whole world about it. One might think the world is bullshit for other reasons but I'm not motivated to tell the whole world (soc) about it because I see no use in that. But it seems like she thinks she's helping the world out by saying this.

    i think she's sx/so. Which for some reason is really hard to see in 4s. Probably because sx/so has this warm love theme and 4 is the opposite of that.
    "that it will never come again is what makes life sweet"
    - emily dickinson

  28. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    *Edit*
    Watching her a bit more, she kind of vibes a bit like @lungs.
    I like that. I find fiona relatable but I think she's more intense/raw/emotional than I am. Maniac types me social 5 though

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    lungs is more heavy and yeah, less emotional. i think fiona is more like starfall than lungs.
    "that it will never come again is what makes life sweet"
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    Quote Originally Posted by maniac View Post
    Social:

    This whole speech is Fi.

    I'm going with EII 4w5 sx/something

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    I used to think she was ILI, but then I noticed that she has a lot of Fi in her lyrics... Maybe EII or IEI work better.

    She is most definitely a 4w5, and probably sp/sx or sx/sp.
    Oh my gosssshhhhh!

    I am just so happy all these people are paying attention to Fiona. And because of me. I don't type people because of where I am in the course of my life right now. However, I really don't see her being anything but 4 or 5, by anyyyy stretch of the imagination, whatsoever. Reason, however, could end up saying she's a nine because of the fact that all nines have excess proinflammatory cytokine activity in response to stress. Or, really, anything. By that same intuition or imagination, I'd have such a difficult time seeing how a speech makes her have a pronounced social instinct, or how she is BPD, although I've been put in my place with my specious opinon by the apprisal that, in reality, BPD does have a certain neural substrate, architecture, neurotransmitter firing, and electrical activity pathway pattern set.... Anyhow, I really love her sweetness. She is so sweet! Sweet people make me so, so glad and pleased. And I get that comment about seeming high all the time, at my school or really anywhere lol.

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    @Limitless shes reaching out to all these people she dont know (like in your avatar, and that other video that was posted here), and tells them sorry and that she agrees with them, as to help them or comfort them or something. Unlikely for a social last who usually stay to their own devices.
    "that it will never come again is what makes life sweet"
    - emily dickinson

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    Here she talks about how her music is a way to show the world who she is and to make friends. Thats social.

    "that it will never come again is what makes life sweet"
    - emily dickinson

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    Quote Originally Posted by maniac View Post
    Here she talks about how her music is a way to show the world who she is and to make friends. Thats social.

    Or she is autodidactic in psychology and knows the ideal and most effective way to help and comfort people. Social lasts sound stupid if they stay to their own devices. No one exists separate from other people. To ignore that would be like to become catatonic about the material Self-perserving world if you are a SP last. SP lasts by your logic would be justified in saying their thalamus just is different from other peoples', let us say, and that such an abberation is just who they are. That, to me, is rationalization, because if a group of people with that logic formed, then society would eventually see that their material brains are destructive and therefore not a personality trait as much as a disease, likely caused not by thalamic differences but dopamine changes impelled by cytokine activity, let us say. Its not that she "dont knwow" those people, but that she doesn't know everything. Sorry if this is pedantic at all.

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    It's just interesting to see how other people perceive her!! @maniac

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    Quote Originally Posted by Limitless View Post
    Or she is autodidactic in psychology and knows the ideal and most effective way to help and comfort people. Social lasts sound stupid if they stay to their own devices. No one exists separate from other people. To ignore that would be like to become catatonic about the material Self-perserving world if you are a SP last. SP lasts by your logic would be justified in saying their thalamus just is different from other peoples', let us say, and that such an abberation is just who they are. That, to me, is rationalization, because if a group of people with that logic formed, then society would eventually see that their material brains are destructive and therefore not a personality trait as much as a disease, likely caused not by thalamic differences but dopamine changes impelled by cytokine activity, let us say. Its not that she "dont knwow" those people, but that she doesn't know everything. Sorry if this is pedantic at all.
    If you think ignoring social bonds for the most part is stupid then it makes sense if youre not soc last. Every blindspot is their own kind of stupid. Everyone uses every instinct but the instinct stacking is how you prioritize it and how much importance you put on them. Social last still talk and socialize but I dont see the importance in building friendships and reaching out to people for the sake of being their friend and bonding with them, and also keepning in touch and making those connections last. I seek out people to fulfill my sexual instinct but for the most part I'm a hermit. Catatonia is a state of being speechless and motionless. if this was true so/sx and sx/so wouldnt be able to fulfill their social needs nor their sexual needs.
    "that it will never come again is what makes life sweet"
    - emily dickinson

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    Recently I think sx/so 478 for her. But she's a hard one. She seems like she really wants to be seen as sort of grungy and unhealthy which I don't know why. I share this somewhat. She's more naturally feminine than me though. She might be 4w3 with a 5w4 subwing like me.
    By the way that stacking sx/so is really difficult to see in 4s I have noticed. I think Bob Dylan (w5) and Rufus Wainwright are also sx/so and it's hard to see. Coldheartedness of 4 + warmhearted sx/so.

    Why I think she's 7 fixed is because in interviews she has an easier time of letting go of the self consciousness to an extent and play around more than a 4 with the other fixes.

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    Obvious EII is obvious.

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    Same type as Nas and Jimi Hendrix imo , IEI

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