Am I accepted in Gamma? :P

[Khamelion]

Becomeing a bully is largely environmental....probably 85% of it is environmental, and the rest type related. It seems to be more about what the type DOES with the environment.

[Joy]

This appears to be a situation in which the wisest course of action is to agree to disagree, since there's no way to know for sure what these people's types are, and even if it's rare for a certain type to be unkind in a specific manner and more common in other manners, there are exceptions and none of this can be quantified.

[FDG]

Extraverted people in the traditional understanding of the term, regardless of quadra, are usually group orientated

Uhm. You can be group orientated when the group does things you like, and get away from it when the group does things you dislike.

Anyway, now no mocking - most bullies I've known were actually young ISTj-Se; there's a specific subset of them high in mesomorphism and usually far more interested in contact sports than anything school-related that can be very dangerous. You can spot the kind by the fact that they usually walk with their fists clenched.

I've only known an ENTj bully, but he was very mentally unhealthy.

[Joy]

okay

I've only known an ENTj bully, but he was very mentally unhealthy.

Did he bully by making subtle jokes about the person that everyone else was "picking on" in group situations? Did he socially gain up on an unpopular person with others? Or write unfriendly things about someone where others would see it and laugh? Or... did he use more aggressive (and probably socially unacceptable) means of bullying, such as yelling or threatening? Did he make power plays against people, trying to be in control?

[FDG]

okay

I've only known an ENTj bully, but he was very mentally unhealthy.

Did he bully by making subtle jokes about the person that everyone else was "picking on" in group situations? Did he socially gain up on an unpopular person with others? Or write unfriendly things about someone where others would see it and laugh? Or... did he use more aggressive (and probably socially unacceptable) means of bullying, such as yelling or threatening? Did he make power plays against people, trying to be in control?

Wait wait wait, he cannot be considered really because he was REALLY unhealthy, but he did all the above, yelling, threats, making up voices...he was an isolated case though among all the ENTjs I know.

[Joy]

I didn't mean to suggest that this person was a typical ENTj... just find out if he was more likely to:

A.) Did he bully by making subtle jokes about the person that everyone else was "picking on" in group situations? Did he socially gain up on an unpopular person with others? Or write unfriendly things about someone where others would see it and laugh?

or

B.) all that other stuff you and I mentioned

[Expat]

Having read the story... it's still hard to pick between INFj and INFp. I was leaning towards INFj before, but the way you complain about the emotional environment, group spirit, and people caring about their own friends over the group seems VERY Fe > Fi

I have to disagree with this. On the contrary, it seems that she was exposed to people who resented her for NOT participating in the Fe atmosphere ("cold" etc) and who resorted to Se tactics.

I have seen nothing in her story and self-descriptions so far that contradicts INFj.

I wouldn't be so sure about your typings, btw. (I think it's pretty hard to type others before you at least know your own quadra values. )

Yes, come on -- how does she know those guys were "ESTps and ENTjs"? And since when "ESTps and ENTjs" are natural buddies in such situations?

I dunno.... I could sorta see an argument for Si > Se + aristocracy making Delta NFs want to be accepted peacefully into a group.... But being concerned with how others think of them as an individual + wanting to be accepted as part of the group could very easily be argued as democracy + Fe + Si.

And the need to "create a peaceful environment and bring up good feelings" definitely seems more Fe than Fi, regardless of whether or not Si is valued. And if anyone in Delta is responsible for creating the proper Si environment, it's the ESTjs and ISTps... who would be even less concerned with that sort of thing than INFjs and ENFps.

Expat, you're more familiar with the actual manifestations of Alpha quadra values than I am. What do you think?

I'm not sure what you mean. It's getting complicated. In real terms, I don't think an ISFp - if that's what we are talking about - would be hostilized or made fun of because anyone thought they were "cold" and could basically take it. An ISFp would either have broken down much earlier, or more likely lashed out back in anger earlier. Or perceived it as a joke and managed to join the fun.

I think you are putting a wrong interpretation on the meaning of Fe this time. INFjs tend to perceive hostile Fe atmosphere as if they were a sort of "collective bad Fi" as in "every single person hates me", which you can see as Aristocracy perhaps. The problem is that she did not seem to be getting positive Fi signs from anyone. The problem is not that she wasn't accepted in a "group", it's that she seemed to be totally alone.

Regarding the typings of the people in my story, I think they had demonstrated PoLR based on the rationale behind their actions. I realized that types with PoLR can be rather insensitive with people's feelings because they usually take cues from people's reactions and emotional expression to be able to know how to react, rather than be able to stand in the other party's shoe and imagine how he would feel if he were the other person.

This is the best explanation of Fe hidden agenda/Fi PoLR that I've ever heard.

It's a good one.

Maybe I'm being biased toward Gamma here, but I've never seen an ENTj participate in socially gaining up against someone. ENTjs generally find singling out one person for ridicule or mistreatment disgusting behavior, especially when it's based on popularity or the group's attitude towards that person. ENTjs would be far more likely to be irritated and ignore a situation like that, be friendly to the underdog, or fight for the underdog than take part in the type of behavior you're describing. It actually sounds like a bad stereotype of Beta behavior, especially in highschool. ENFj/ESTp would be FAR more likely for those people's types than ENTj, but I wouldn't assume that the people acting that way were all two specific types.

I have to agree with Joy here.

And now for the accusations of "bias" --

[Joy]

Thank you Expat, that makes sense. INFj makes perfect sense then.

(And what you said about ESTps and ENTjs being natural "buddies" is the first thing that went through my mind... the behavior she's describing is one of the main things that ENTjs think less of ESTps for, and they wouldn't be inclined to "join in the fun" in that situation. I didn't want to say that though because I figured people would bitch, so I focused on the Fe aristocracy vs. Fi dual seeking democracy thing.)

[FDG]

I didn't mean to suggest that this person was a typical ENTj... just find out if he was more likely to:

A.) Did he bully by making subtle jokes about the person that everyone else was "picking on" in group situations? Did he socially gain up on an unpopular person with others? Or write unfriendly things about someone where others would see it and laugh?

or

B.) all that other stuff you and I mentioned

- socially gain up unpopular: yes

the other two: no

[Expat]

Do you know a lot of ENTjs? I have known a few ENTjs and sadly most of them were very much into bullying people and frequently they seem to me to be the most sadistic, persistent kind of bullies.


If Eunice thinks some of her bullies were ENTjs I am incline to believe her based on my experience with ENTjs bullies.

And how do you know those ENTjs were ENTj? Because they were similar to "other ENTjs you know"?

Yeah, but it wouldn't generally be done the same way you're describing.

I have seen it done in nearly the exact way she has described.

Extraverted people in the traditional understanding of the term, regardless of quadra, are usually group orientated and tend to do things like what Eunice described with others. I am sure I have seen ENTjs (especially the loud, outgoing, "I know everything" ones) group up with others to bully people sometimes even physically and what Eunice wrote sounds very familiar.

ENTjs can be bullies. A typical situation would be, say, an ENTj, an ISFj and ESFp in an office getting impatient with what they see is the ISFp's or INFp's inefficiency and lack of straightforwardness and decide that they are useless, and get increasingly impatient and tell them to get their act together -- or simply regard them as "not up to it".

Another situation is what I've read of Bill Gates's behavior in internal Microsoft meetings, when he'd say things like "so you don't know the answer. Are you stupid or what?"

And actually it could be argued that what I've done in this forum, or other Gamma NTs have done, towards posters they regard as stupid + ignorant + persuaded of their genius, is a form of bullying.

But to "gang up" on an outsider due to not belonging socially, and assume she "could take it" due to a lack of outward emotional expression -- this is ultimate non-ENTj, it makes no sense, no matter how many "ENTjs you know" have done that.

[Joy]

okay, thanks

[Expat]

Extraverted people in the traditional understanding of the term, regardless of quadra, are usually group orientated and tend to do things like what Eunice described with others.

Sorry Megan -- this is just a blanket accusation of "traditional extraverts".

You're basically saying, "extraverted people" ---> "bullies". "Usually".

[Expat]

Becomeing a bully is largely environmental....probably 85% of it is environmental, and the rest type related. It seems to be more about what the type DOES with the environment.

Yes.

An ENTj will be a bully using for purposes, or vice-versa -- but to use , or for purposes? It makes no sense.

[Joy]

exactly

[Megan]

You're basically saying, "extraverted people" ---> "bullies". "Usually".

Did you really get that from what I said? If so then you understood incorrectly. To have a group orientated focus which I think is quite typical of many extraverts, does not mean that they are all bullies.

Like I said before and I am sticking with it because I have seen it several times with people who operate functionally and behaviorally as ENTjs, is that some ENTjs are bullies...typical traditional, nasty, sadistic, power hungry bullies and it is not because they have more "knowledge" than the "stupid" people around them...it is simply because they are unhealthy like most or all bullies of any other type and most bullies like company to oppress others.

There is nothing in the functional pschye of ENTjs that I know of that would exempt all of them from being bullies of various kinds.

There is also nothing there to exempt them automatically from grouping up with others to attack people.

And since when "ESTps and ENTjs" are natural buddies in such situations?

And yes, ENTjs and ESTps are sometimes friends/buddies in such situations. oftens unites them when they are both inclined to do crap to others for their own individual reasons.

[Megan]

Becomeing a bully is largely environmental....probably 85% of it is environmental, and the rest type related. It seems to be more about what the type DOES with the environment.

Yes.

An ENTj will be a bully using for purposes, or vice-versa -- but to use , or for purposes? It makes no sense.

And people never use their role function for anything...right?

And the bullying was not done for purposes from what I can make of Eunice's story... even if by your understanding of the bullying was done in a way

The bullying was done because in the minds of the people involved, Eunice had less "knowledge" than she made claim to having.

[Megan]

Also, I often feel that even here people who think they are gammas "gang" up on people and seek support from the crowd and from each other.

Watch.

[XoX]

For me it seems Gammas do use group support a lot. At least extroverted Gammas. Perhaps more so than e.g. Betas. Where a Beta might want to stand on their own feet and say "imho you are stupid" a Gamma might call in their pack and say "we _all_ can see how stupid you are".

Does someone see this the other way around?

[Joy]

Also, I often feel that even here people who think they are gammas "gang" up on people and seek support from the crowd and from each other.

Watch.

Agreeing with someone's point/information/explanation doesn't have anything to do with anything besides their point/information/explanation. The people who I assume you're referring to also disagree with each other (read expat's post in this thread about what I had said) and support other people who do not share all of our quadra values. The fact that we (I assume it's fair to place myself in this group you're referring to?) tend to agree more than disagree means that we share similar perspectives and knowledge, that's all. It's not about who's right (or who "wins"). It's about what's right. One of the key characteristics of Gamma is actually the way they expect people (especially people they're close to) to offer fair and direct criticisms. In fact, to those who do not share the same quadra values, this can appear rather harsh.

Yes, people of any types can be friends... but in the situation which eunice described, it's very unlikely that ENTjs would take part in that specific type of bullying. If an ENTj is friends with an ESTp who behaves that way, most of the time it will be in spite of that specific type of behavior.

In regards to the Fe role, yes, ENTjs can use Fe, but more often than not it's going to be in a way that makes the ENTj "fit in", not stand out. If an ENTj's bullying seems Fe, the Fe is generally only going to be there to provide cover for Te or Se attacks (which have Te, Fi, or Se motivations).

Your impressions of the motivations behind the attacks on eunice are different from mine. Since there's no way to determine the actual motivations of the people involved, I don't think there's much of a point in debating it.

[Joy]

For me it seems Gammas do use group support a lot. At least extroverted Gammas. Perhaps more so than e.g. Betas. Where a Beta might want to stand on their own feet and say "imho you are stupid" a Gamma might call in their pack and say "we _all_ can see how stupid you are".

Does someone see this the other way around?

I don't generally think that way (unless it's obvious that's obviously what's going on).

[Gilly]

Doesn't everyone expect directness and honest criticism from people they're close to? I mean, I certainly have lots of friends from whom I expect nothing of the sort, but I can't see anybody considering someone "close" unless they can speak directly and openly with them. What makes this a characteristic of Gamma?

[Expat]

The bullying was done because in the minds of the people involved, Eunice had less "knowledge" than she made claim to having.

According to what she said at the end, it was because she was "different".

[Gilly]

Is any bullying going to be done for the purpose of celebrating a similarity? I think it's redundant to say that someone was made fun of for being different; nobody gets made fun of for having qualities similar to those who are teasing them.

[Expat]

You're basically saying, "extraverted people" ---> "bullies". "Usually".

Did you really get that from what I said? If so then you understood incorrectly. To have a group orientated focus which I think is quite typical of many extraverts, does not mean that they are all bullies.

I did get that, because your actual words were:

Extraverted people in the traditional understanding of the term, regardless of quadra, are usually group orientated and tend to do things like what Eunice described with others.

And that's pretty much what I "got", "softened" by the words "usually" and "tend", which I also pointed out with my "usually".

[Megan]

Extraverted people in the traditional understanding of the term, regardless of quadra, are usually group orientated and tend to do things like what Eunice described with others.

And that's pretty much what I "got", "softened" by the words "usually" and "tend", which I also pointed out with my "usually

But do you see Expat that what I am saying is not that all extraverted people behave that way... even if some based on their external orientation are inclined to do so when they are bullies?

[Megan]

*Direct quote from eunice's story removed by Expat at her request*.

@ Joy, I think some of the "motivation" and real start of the bullying was pretty clear from the story Eunice told. The bullying started (like I pointed out before) when they felt that Eunice had less knowledge than she claimed to have.

[Joy]

Extraverted people in the traditional understanding of the term, regardless of quadra, are usually group orientated and tend to do things like what Eunice described with others.

What about people who bully their spouses or children or siblings? Or bully someone by getting them in trouble at work? Or stealing shit from them? Or messing up their stuff? Or jumping them and kicking their asses? Or just criticize them a lot? I see no reason why any of that has to be "group orientated".

btw, it does sound like you're saying that most extroverted people isolate others from their social group by making jokes about them (and just generally acting like really fucking annoying, immature assholes, if we're talking about what eunice described)... at least that's how it sounds to me...

[Joy]

@ Joy, I think some of the "motivation" and real start of the bullying was pretty clear from the story Eunice told. The bullying started (like I pointed out before) when they felt that Eunice had less knowledge than she claimed to have.

That's how it all started with one of the individuals involved, but I don't think that was the motivation, even for that one person. His general impression of her and the way she responded to him were what caused him to think she was different in some way which required social ridicule and isolation.

[Gilly]

Bullying is entirely unrelated to type.


Let's move on.

[Megan]

Extraverted people in the traditional understanding of the term, regardless of quadra, are usually group orientated and tend to do things like what Eunice described with others.

[What about people who bully their spouses or children or siblings? Or bully someone by getting them in trouble at work? Or stealing shit from them? Or messing up their stuff? Or jumping them and kicking their asses? Or just criticize them a lot? I see no reason why any of that has to be "group orientated".

I did not mean to imply that all bullying is done in groups by extraverts. I was sharing my observations that extraverted people who are inclined to be bullies seem to prefer to do so in a group. In fact, extraverts seem to prefer to do a lot of their activities in groups, this does not mean that they are incapable of acting alone to do good or bad activities.

btw, it does sound like you're saying that most extroverted people isolate others from their social group by making jokes about them (and just generally acting like really fucking annoying, immature assholes, if we're talking about what eunice described)... at least that's how it sounds to me.

Again, some of the mean, unkind ones do that. Not all extraverts do and not even all the mean, unkind ones do it either, just that there seems to be this tendency towards group action/isolation in the ones that have a mind to be unkind.

[Megan]

@ Joy, I think some of the "motivation" and real start of the bullying was pretty clear from the story Eunice told. The bullying started (like I pointed out before) when they felt that Eunice had less knowledge than she claimed to have.

That's how it all started with one of the individuals involved, but I don't think that was the motivation, even for that one person. His general impression of her and the way she responded to him were what caused him to think she was different in some way which required social ridicule and isolation.

Yes, but I do think it is significant that this started over a lack of knowledge issue as opposed to something else.

[maze]

Maybe I'm being biased toward Gamma here, but I've never seen an ENTj participate in socially gaining up against someone. ENTjs generally find singling out one person for ridicule or mistreatment disgusting behavior, especially when it's based on popularity or the group's attitude towards that person. [b]ENTjs would be far more likely to be irritated[b] and ignore a situation like that, be friendly to the underdog, or fight for the underdog than take part in the type of behavior you're describing. It actually sounds like a bad stereotype of Beta behavior, especially in highschool. ENFj/ESTp would be FAR more likely for those people's types than ENTj, but I wouldn't assume that the people acting that way were all two specific types.

I have to agree with Joy here.

And now for the accusations of "bias" --

Well it does look like ya'll are wanting to see yourselves in a good light. Because from my perspective, I've seen this behavior (except the part of "gaining popularity") in Joy. Three words; Crazy Corn Lady. Now don't tell me your initial conception of that term wasn't filled with animosity. And, where was it perpetuated? In the chat- a social situation. Who was the largest proponent? An "ENTj"?

I rarely acknowledged it, preferring to ignore it; knowing it would pass. However, I never imagined it would become reference material.

So yeah, if bias isn't involved...what is it? Miscommunication about people's true motivations? Skewed self-perception? etc. etc.

[Joy]

Extraverted people in the traditional understanding of the term, regardless of quadra, are usually group orientated and tend to do things like what Eunice described with others.

[What about people who bully their spouses or children or siblings? Or bully someone by getting them in trouble at work? Or stealing shit from them? Or messing up their stuff? Or jumping them and kicking their asses? Or just criticize them a lot? I see no reason why any of that has to be "group orientated".

I did not mean to imply that all bullying is done in groups by extraverts. I was sharing my observations that extraverted people who are inclined to be bullies seem to prefer to do so in a group. In fact, extraverts seem to prefer to do a lot of their activities in groups, this does not mean that they are incapable of acting alone to do good or bad activities.

btw, it does sound like you're saying that most extroverted people isolate others from their social group by making jokes about them (and just generally acting like really fucking annoying, immature assholes, if we're talking about what eunice described)... at least that's how it sounds to me.

Again, some of the mean, unkind ones do that. Not all extraverts do and not even all the mean, unkind ones do it either, just that there seems to be this tendency towards group action/isolation in the ones that have a mind to be unkind.

This plus the fact that you did say "Extraverted people in the traditional understanding of the term" makes more sense. I guess I was too focused on Socionics.

Maybe I'm being biased toward Gamma here, but I've never seen an ENTj participate in socially gaining up against someone. ENTjs generally find singling out one person for ridicule or mistreatment disgusting behavior, especially when it's based on popularity or the group's attitude towards that person. [b]ENTjs would be far more likely to be irritated[b] and ignore a situation like that, be friendly to the underdog, or fight for the underdog than take part in the type of behavior you're describing. It actually sounds like a bad stereotype of Beta behavior, especially in highschool. ENFj/ESTp would be FAR more likely for those people's types than ENTj, but I wouldn't assume that the people acting that way were all two specific types.

I have to agree with Joy here.

And now for the accusations of "bias" --

Well it does look like ya'll are wanting to see yourselves in a good light. Because from my perspective, I've seen this behavior (except the part of "gaining popularity") in Joy. Three words; Crazy Corn Lady. Now don't tell me your initial conception of that term wasn't filled with animosity. And, where was it perpetuated? In the chat- a social situation. Who was the largest proponent? An "ENTj"?

I rarely acknowledged it, preferring to ignore it; knowing it would pass. However, I never imagined it would become reference material.

So yeah, if bias isn't involved...what is it? Miscommunication about people's true motivations? Skewed self-perception? etc. etc.

I'm sorry for all of that.

That said... while I was pretty... flabbergasted... by you at the time, and the name "crazy corn lady" was indeed initially said out of irritation, getting others to call you that as well was never my intention. Whatever I said in the chat was the same as everything else I said in the chat back then... ranting. I didn't take part in making fun of others with people there, and believe me, there was a lot of that was going on in there, generally speaking. If I criticized someone, it was never to make others laugh, get people to agree with me, or create some sort of bonding or emotional environment with others. I especially wasn't looking for the group to gain up on anyone. Anyways, it didn't take very long for me to develop a fondness for you, and then I continued to call you "crazy corn lady", but not out of irritation or malice or anything negative. It was more of a term of endearment at that point, I guess a sort of reference to the way the situation had been so different between us at one point.

I will admit that when I'm being bitchy I say and do things that I know will cause the person I'm being bitchy towards to say or do things that will cause unpleasant results for themselves... but the type of result is determined by their own values. If they obviously care about looking cool, they'll make themselves look like an idiot. If they care about power, they'll put themselves in an unfavorable position in terms of power. Etc. And the means I use to get them to do these things? Whatever works (within certain limits, of course... there's a lot of shit I wouldn't do no matter how bitchy I'm feeling).

Sigh. So there's my confession of my own bullying ways. And now I'm inclined to agree with Gilligan, it's probably time to drop it. I do still think that people's motivations and the way which they go about bullying are related to type, but any type can be a bully (of course), and this conversation is obviously getting us nowhere.

[Gilly]

edit

[Megan]

Also, I often feel that even here people who think they are gammas "gang" up on people and seek support from the crowd and from each other.

Watch.

Who gangs up on people? Sure, some Gammas might call the same person on their bullshit but -- shock -- could it be because they independently came to the conclusion that the person was spouting bullshit? Never, we've all succumbed to groupthink, of course.

What I see is that some Gammas already have support from the group though they didn't do anything to attain it... and wow, seeking support from individuals you like/respect. How disgusting.

I disagree, and I stand by what I observed before and continue to see more evidence of it in fact.

At the same time, i have PMed with a person from gamma who sought to express their opinion on the matter in a calm, non driven and rational way and I appreciated that. I do not wish to contribute anything else to the thread about the matter because this thread is about finding Eunice's type primarily. Perhaps if the issue is really important to you and you feel the real need to express your feelings about it then you can start another thread dealing specifically with it.

[FDG]

I don't get what's the point of protecting bullies? It doesn't really matter which type they are, it's starting to become nonsense that we have to refer to singular bullying behaviour because "Te bullies don't do this".

Bullying's not a function, and whoever bullies usually uses all bullying techniques. I don't know where you people have lived so far but as a kid I passed 13 years in a place full of them and guess what? They were all basically the same (except the boss of all bullies that was much smarter) kind of shit: dumb, ugly, fat, big - is this a fucking function?

[Expat]

Also, I often feel that even here people who think they are gammas "gang" up on people and seek support from the crowd and from each other.

Watch.

You're totally wrong on this, regardless of your observations -- the problem is not your observations, but your interpretations of the Gammas' motivations.

First, let's be clear -- who are you referring to, especially with your "watch"? Do you mean, right now, Joy, Thunder and myself, "ganging up" on you? Or perhaps previously on Phaedrus?

That is totally NOT what is happening or happens. Yes, the actions can be seen as "ganging up" to an outside observer, but the motivations have ZERO to do with "seeking support from the crowd".

Gammas' motivations are subject for another thread, but in a discussion forum like this, where there is no money to be gained, Gamma's motivations are simply: eliminate incorrect information and evil, and support good. And yes, WE decide what is "good" and "evil".

If you want a microcosm of that, I refer you to niffweed17's actions regarding Dioklecian -- I can assure you he didn't give a shit about "support from the crowd". His sole motivation was to contain a source of misinformation, which he found offensive.


Back to this point, which is important for eunice's type (by the way, I will later remove all of the quotes of eunice's story from everyone's posts):

On a side note, there wasn't any class spirit in the first place and I hated it when I'm in a situation where group effort wasn't present and nobody seemed to care about one another other than their own immediate friends.

Yes that could be seen as Fe>Fi, but I think it's something else -- I mean, this is something that (for instance) Kim could also have written. Rather than Fe>Fi, I think it's her disappointment with the lack of inclusive Delta Aristocracy on part of the others. She's complaining about the lack of "inclusive Fi", rather than of Fe.

[FDG]

I agree it's not general, I'm not capable of giving honest criticism to the people I'm closest to for example, I fear they'll be hurt.

[Joy]

Doesn't everyone expect directness and honest criticism from people they're close to? I mean, I certainly have lots of friends from whom I expect nothing of the sort, but I can't see anybody considering someone "close" unless they can speak directly and openly with them. What makes this a characteristic of Gamma?

I'm not saying that other types values dishonesty... just that the specific way Gammas criticize is seen as cold or harsh by other quadras, but it's something we appreciate in each other.

[Creepy-Diana]

.