Am I accepted in Gamma? :P

[Joy]

Being a manager isn't just about giving orders. There's a difference between being a boss and being a leader. There are a lot of people who effectively run businesses or departments of business without barking commands out at people. It's about seeing what's going on and the most effective way to accomplish things. It's about intelligence and knowing how different people will respond to different things. Delegating responsibilities can be done without ordering anyone around or assuming "control" over others.

And it's total bullshit to look at introspective "rants" that people write here and make assumptions about their capabilities in dealing with people irl. This place is not a typical social or business scenario. I would tend to think that most people act differently here than they do irl.

[eunice]

Why do you think we are so similar?

I mentioned it once in one of the threads. I don't think we are totally similar, but just some similarities here and there. Interest in Japanese language and culture, willingness to contribute to our society, preference for Accountancy not because we are interested in it but rather it enables us to fulfil our long term goals etc. That's what I could recall at the moment.

I am not taking Accounting as my major any more. I was considering it. Business Admin right now. I do not see in you a willingness to manage others towards success.

I won't be the first to volunteer to lead others, but I would gladly accept the responsibility if someone delegated it to me.

[Gilly]

I know UDP beyond his "introspective rants."

[Joy]

eunice, could you describe some of your relationships (friends, family, boyfriends, whatever) for us? Pretend that none of us has ever heard of Socionics (yourself included) and describe characteristics of others that you've appreciated or had problems with. What types of misunderstandings have you had with others? When you and another person who you were once close to fought or ended your relationship/friendship, what were the conflicts over? What do you value most about the people you've been closest to?

Example: One of the most important things about the friendships I've had has been the other person's willingness to take initiative in terms of making plans with me, both initially and forever after. I can make friendly acquaintances easily, but have a hard time making (and keeping) actual friends. Straightforwardness, sincerity, and honesty are extremely important to me in friendships and relationships. I place a higher value on that than anything else. I don't like people who are concerned with looking "cool" or what other people who they aren't close to think of them. In relationships, nothing matters more to me than faithfulness and honestly. I also need intellectual stimulation (who doesn't?) and cannot be with someone who is controlling. Most of the tension in my marriages centered around my inability to keep up with housework.

[eunice]

eunice, could you describe some of your relationships (friends, family, boyfriends, whatever) for us? Pretend that none of us has ever heard of Socionics (yourself included) and describe characteristics of others that you've appreciated or had problems with. What types of misunderstandings have you had with others? When you and another person who you were once close to fought or ended your relationship/friendship, what were the conflicts over? What do you value most about the people you've been closest to?

Example: One of the most important things about the friendships I've had has been the other person's willingness to take initiative in terms of making plans with me, both initially and forever after. I can make friendly acquaintances easily, but have a hard time making (and keeping) actual friends. Straightforwardness, sincerity, and honesty are extremely important to me in friendships and relationships. I place a higher value on that than anything else. I don't like people who are concerned with looking "cool" or what other people who they aren't close to think of them. In relationships, nothing matters more to me than faithfulness and honestly. I also need intellectual stimulation (who doesn't?) and cannot be with someone who is controlling. Most of the tension in my marriages centered around my inability to keep up with housework.

I'm not someone who calls everyone I know my friends. I'm basically a nice person, but I think I might appear unfriendly sometimes. I'm not the type who takes the initiative to say "hi" to acquaintances I bumped into and I tend to ignore them to avoid engaging into unnecessary small talks (which I'm not good at), even though I strongly appreciate someone who makes the first move. The rationale behind my behavior is like, "I don't know you well, so I don't see the need to do that." Moreover, I rarely take the initiative to give hugs and display physical affections 'cos it is not in my nature to do so and I'm usually not sure whether it is appropriate during that particular situation, but nonetheless I definitely love receiving them from others.

So, I guess I'm an emotionally subdued person, but I enjoy making friends (or potential partners) with positive people who are emotionally effusive and constantly encouraging me and opening my eyes to the beautiful side of life since I can worry too much about the uncertainty of the future. I also tend to like people from whom I can learn something new from and about them every now and then. I tend to get bored when there is nothing more to learn about them and the relationship basically becomes stagnated and I don't see any potential in carrying it on. (That was currently what was going on between me and my ESTj (technically) best friend.) As such, I'm prone to liking guys who are friendly, sociable, active and constantly improving themselves, leading life with a sense of purpose. It would be better if they also believe strongly in serving their communities and not afraid of to accept leadership roles and make a difference.

I get along with nearly everyone I meet, and if there is any reason why someone doesn't really like me, it is mainly because they find me hard to read and that I tend to lack the initiative to approach others. This led them to mistaken that I'm too proud to approach anyone. Therefore, most of the friends I have made are usually those I have studied or worked with and know me well, rather than from other social situations such as parties or anywhere which requires me to make the first move. On the other hand, I'm not a confrontational person and I tend to withdraw from an argument or quarrel when I'm sensing that it would be escalating into something more intense and antagonistic. Some have perceived such response as weakness on my side, but I did that mainly because I don't want to hurt the other person and turn our relationship into long term enmity.

[UDP]

eunice - what would you offer that person in return? You mentioned some qualities you like, but what about things you are willing to give. Or, what things you have in yourself that you would hope your partner to appreciate and like you for? Etc.

[UDP]

Why do you think we are so similar?

I mentioned it once in one of the threads. I don't think we are totally similar, but just some similarities here and there. Interest in Japanese language and culture, willingness to contribute to our society, preference for Accountancy not because we are interested in it but rather it enables us to fulfil our long term goals etc. That's what I could recall at the moment.

I am not taking Accounting as my major any more. I was considering it. Business Admin right now. I do not see in you a willingness to manage others towards success.

And you think you could manage anybody, after writing those endless rants about yourself here? Sorry but it really had to be said

What are you getting at? That I would rant them out too much? Your criticism leaves me wondering as to its meaning.

[UDP]

For the record: What I was saying in regard to eunice and "leading people", was, that she does not seem like someone who is inherently driven to see things work their best, in terms of, accepting and dealing with leadership roles. It was not a slight or questioning of her competencies.

[UDP]

You can see UDP giving orders?

What do you mean?

I know UDP beyond his "introspective rants."

Again, what do you mean?

[Joy]

From what you wrote, INFj seems likely, but INFp is also possible.

Could you share any actual stories about misunderstandings or incompatibilities? Tell the story without interpreting any of it. Don't guess at the other person's motivations, just say what happened and how you felt about it at the time.

fwiw, the title of this thread strongly suggests that you're not Gamma

[Joy]

I know UDP beyond his "introspective rants."

Again, what do you mean?

Gilligan, the fact that UDP is not aware of any reason that you should know him better than anyone else on this forum suggests a high likelihood that you're wrong. I like you Gilligan, but I've seen you make some character judgments that were incredibly far off the mark.

[Exodus]

fwiw, the title of this thread strongly suggests that you're not Gamma

Yeah, Gammas aren't allowed to use smileys.

[Joy]

fwiw, the title of this thread strongly suggests that you're not Gamma

Yeah, Gammas aren't allowed to use smileys.

It's not that.

[Quirk Satellite Div.]

Gammas are supposed to use stock tickers instead of smileys in order to communicate emotion.

[Elro]

Gammas are supposed to use stock tickers instead of smileys in order to communicate emotion.

QSD +1.38

[implied]

Gammas are supposed to use stock tickers instead of smileys in order to communicate emotion.

brilliant. i was just thinking about how much my stock tickers rule.

[Expat]

fwiw, the title of this thread strongly suggests that you're not Gamma

Yeah, I agree with this. Of course, on its own it doesn't rule out anything, but it's indeed not what a Gamma would tend to write.

Gamma is the most solitary of all quadras (yes, at the end of the day, including ESFps) - by choice and by "destiny" if you will. The idea that you have to be "accepted" in a group is seen as a nuisance rather than something to strive for.

[eunice]

eunice - what would you offer that person in return? You mentioned some qualities you like, but what about things you are willing to give. Or, what things you have in yourself that you would hope your partner to appreciate and like you for? Etc.

I guess I will talk about qualities that people generally appreciate me for:

Firstly, even though I tend to deprecate myself, I will never criticize someone and point out his mistakes because I don't believe in lowering his self-esteem and make him feel sorry about himself.

Secondly, I believe that I'm able to analyze the situation effectively beyond the surface which others have not noticed on first impression. Sometimes, I feel that I have overanalyzed to the extent that I know too much and this has led me to become cynical about life. Nonetheless, I am good at providing alternative viewpoints when someone I know gets too optimistic, and I try not to be negative at the same time in order not to completely bring down his enthusiasm.

Thirdly, I'm someone who is calm and collected and nothing seems to faze me. Rather than let someone go ahead and make impulsive decisions, I'm able to sit down with someone and explain to him how the situation will play out and provide the options that he can take in order to make the best out of the current situation.

Fourthly, I have a all-or-none attitude whenever I'm given a task or responsibility to fulfil. I feel depressed when I know that I have not given my best 'cos it not only means that I let myself down, but I feel that my loved ones will be affected by it as well and I hate to disappoint them.

Fifthly, I don't agree with this, but my friends have described me as wise and intellectual, and yet there's a child-like streak about me. (An INTp friend of mine once remarked that even though I'm smart, I'm too innocent for the real world. ) My perspectives about life never fail to amaze my friends (who felt that they were cool) even though I don't find them special at all. They didn't really provide me with details, but they just thought that my perspectives seem idealistic, unrealistic, and "out-of-the-world" (in a good way, that is). I guess it probably makes me an interesting person to converse with.

[eunice]

-edited-

[UDP]

eunice - what would you offer that person in return? You mentioned some qualities you like, but what about things you are willing to give. Or, what things you have in yourself that you would hope your partner to appreciate and like you for? Etc.

I guess I will talk about qualities that people generally appreciate me for:

Firstly, even though I tend to deprecate myself, I will never criticize someone and point out his mistakes because I don't believe in lowering his self-esteem and make him feel sorry about himself.

Secondly, I believe that I'm able to analyze the situation effectively beyond the surface which others have not noticed on first impression. Sometimes, I feel that I have overanalyzed to the extent that I know too much and this has led me to become cynical about life. Nonetheless, I am good at providing alternative viewpoints when someone I know gets too optimistic, and I try not to be negative at the same time in order not to completely bring down his enthusiasm.

Thirdly, I'm someone who is calm and collected and nothing seems to faze me. Rather than let someone go ahead and make impulsive decisions, I'm able to sit down with someone and explain to him how the situation will play out and provide the options that he can take in order to make the best out of the current situation.

Fourthly, I have a all-or-none attitude whenever I'm given a task or responsibility to fulfil. I feel depressed when I know that I have not given my best 'cos it not only means that I let myself down, but I feel that my loved ones will be affected by it as well and I hate to disappoint them.

Fifthly, I don't agree with this, but my friends have described me as wise and intellectual, and yet there's a child-like streak about me. (An INTp friend of mine once remarked that even though I'm smart, I'm too innocent for the real world. ) My perspectives about life never fail to amaze my friends (who felt that they were cool) even though I don't find them special at all. They didn't really provide me with details, but they just thought that my perspectives seem idealistic, unrealistic, and "out-of-the-world" (in a good way, that is). I guess it probably makes me an interesting person to converse with.

E I I


That sounds totally EII. Away from ESI.

[implied]

very far away from -creative IMO as well. i think you can pretty much eliminate any type from your list of possible types, eunice.

[UDP]

As for that story, Eunice my condolences.

[Joy]

From what you wrote, INFj seems likely, but INFp is also possible.

Could you share any actual stories about misunderstandings or incompatibilities? Tell the story without interpreting any of it. Don't guess at the other person's motivations, just say what happened and how you felt about it at the time.

fwiw, the title of this thread strongly suggests that you're not Gamma

*insert story here*

Having read the story... it's still hard to pick between INFj and INFp. I was leaning towards INFj before, but the way you complain about the emotional environment, group spirit, and people caring about their own friends over the group seems VERY Fe > Fi. The only thing that confuses me about your type is how you say all kinds of altruistic things about serving the community and that sort of thing, which is most typical of Delta.

I wouldn't be so sure about your typings, btw. (I think it's pretty hard to type others before you at least know your own quadra values. )

(Does anyone else think that when it's so hard to pick between two opposing quadras, it's likely that neither of them is correct? Is it possible that she doesn't value Fi OR Se?)

[Joy]

Having read the story... it's still hard to pick between INFj and INFp. I was leaning towards INFj before, but the way you complain about the emotional environment, group spirit, and people caring about their own friends over the group seems VERY Fe > Fi. The only thing that confuses me about your type is how you say all kinds of altruistic things about serving the community and that sort of thing, which is most typical of Delta.

Any comments anyone?

[bendertheoffender]

Dude, you`r like INFj.

Enough said.

[eunice]

Having read the story... it's still hard to pick between INFj and INFp. I was leaning towards INFj before, but the way you complain about the emotional environment, group spirit, and people caring about their own friends over the group seems VERY Fe > Fi. The only thing that confuses me about your type is how you say all kinds of altruistic things about serving the community and that sort of thing, which is most typical of Delta.

I wouldn't be so sure about your typings, btw. (I think it's pretty hard to type others before you at least know your own quadra values. )

(Does anyone else think that when it's so hard to pick between two opposing quadras, it's likely that neither of them is correct? Is it possible that she doesn't value Fi OR Se?)

I think INFjs in general care alot about emotional environment, group spirit, people caring about their own friends over the group and all the likes. If they hadn't shown much interest in these aspects, I doubt they would have gotten along with people under the Alpha quadra.

I feel that rather than concentrating on the fun and positive mood around them, they are more concerned about how others think of them as an individual, whether they will be accepted as part of the team rather than be there just to add numbers to create a group. I think that could also be about creating a support group to depend on and get information from ( ), and positive emotional environment is important for Delta NFs to create a peaceful environment and bring up good feelings (which basically boils down to ).

Regarding the typings of the people in my story, I think they had demonstrated PoLR based on the rationale behind their actions. I realized that types with PoLR can be rather insensitive with people's feelings because they usually take cues from people's reactions and emotional expression to be able to know how to react, rather than be able to stand in the other party's shoe and imagine how he would feel if he were the other person.

I have to admit that what seems inconsistent about my typings is how they had brought across their jokes. ESTps are usually less subtle and are not apt to tell jokes with double meanings and leave you guessing. Their jokes are more "in-your-face" type, and easily understood. ESTps are also more frank and straightforward, and that is what I appreciated about them. What had driven me crazy was the initial uncertainty about whether the jokes were directed at me and not been able to defend myself to a certain extent because their subtle remarks were not concrete and could be left to anyone's interpretation. I would rather be slapped on the face and know what was going on, rather than deciphering what the other party was suggesting. Therefore, I want a dual who is frank, straightforward, clear and concise, rather than driving me nuts with vague and general statements which could be interpreted in various ways.

[eunice]

Dude, you`r like INFj.

Enough said.

A lot of INFjs said that to you?

[Joy]

Having read the story... it's still hard to pick between INFj and INFp. I was leaning towards INFj before, but the way you complain about the emotional environment, group spirit, and people caring about their own friends over the group seems VERY Fe > Fi. The only thing that confuses me about your type is how you say all kinds of altruistic things about serving the community and that sort of thing, which is most typical of Delta.

I wouldn't be so sure about your typings, btw. (I think it's pretty hard to type others before you at least know your own quadra values. )

(Does anyone else think that when it's so hard to pick between two opposing quadras, it's likely that neither of them is correct? Is it possible that she doesn't value Fi OR Se?)

I think INFjs in general care alot about emotional environment, group spirit, people caring about their own friends over the group and all the likes. If they hadn't shown much interest in these aspects, I doubt they would have gotten along with people under the Alpha quadra.

I really think that's where the differences between the two quadras lie, not the similarities.

I feel that rather than concentrating on the fun and positive mood around them, they are more concerned about how others think of them as an individual, whether they will be accepted as part of the team rather than be there just to add numbers to create a group. I think that could also be about creating a support group to depend on and get information from ( ), and positive emotional environment is important for Delta NFs to create a peaceful environment and bring up good feelings (which basically boils down to ).

I dunno.... I could sorta see an argument for Si > Se + aristocracy making Delta NFs want to be accepted peacefully into a group.... But being concerned with how others think of them as an individual + wanting to be accepted as part of the group could very easily be argued as democracy + Fe + Si.

And the need to "create a peaceful environment and bring up good feelings" definitely seems more Fe than Fi, regardless of whether or not Si is valued. And if anyone in Delta is responsible for creating the proper Si environment, it's the ESTjs and ISTps... who would be even less concerned with that sort of thing than INFjs and ENFps.

Expat, you're more familiar with the actual manifestations of Alpha quadra values than I am. What do you think?

Regarding the typings of the people in my story, I think they had demonstrated PoLR based on the rationale behind their actions. I realized that types with PoLR can be rather insensitive with people's feelings because they usually take cues from people's reactions and emotional expression to be able to know how to react, rather than be able to stand in the other party's shoe and imagine how he would feel if he were the other person.

This is the best explanation of Fe hidden agenda/Fi PoLR that I've ever heard.

I have to admit that what seems inconsistent about my typings is how they had brought across their jokes. ESTps are usually less subtle and are not apt to tell jokes with double meanings and leave you guessing. Their jokes are more "in-your-face" type, and easily understood. ESTps are also more frank and straightforward, and that is what I appreciated about them. What had driven me crazy was the initial uncertainty about whether the jokes were directed at me and not been able to defend myself to a certain extent because their subtle remarks were not concrete and could be left to anyone's interpretation. I would rather be slapped on the face and know what was going on, rather than deciphering what the other party was suggesting. Therefore, I want a dual who is frank, straightforward, clear and concise, rather than driving me nuts with vague and general statements which could be interpreted in various ways.

Believe me, I was not questioning the types of the ESTps in your story AT ALL. I'm actually surprised that you thought that it was the ESTps types I was questioning.

Maybe I'm being biased toward Gamma here, but I've never seen an ENTj participate in socially gaining up against someone. ENTjs generally find singling out one person for ridicule or mistreatment disgusting behavior, especially when it's based on popularity or the group's attitude towards that person. ENTjs would be far more likely to be irritated and ignore a situation like that, be friendly to the underdog, or fight for the underdog than take part in the type of behavior you're describing. It actually sounds like a bad stereotype of Beta behavior, especially in highschool. ENFj/ESTp would be FAR more likely for those people's types than ENTj, but I wouldn't assume that the people acting that way were all two specific types.

[FDG]

Yeah ESTps always beat people up, I spent all my highschool beating up my friend at StreetFighter 3 and on the soccer field, a real bully

[Joy]

Who said anything about beating people up?

[FDG]

Who said anything about beating people up?

Bullying high school blah blah...don't act like you don't know what you're talking about Joy...

[Joy]

Okay, I won't act like I don't know what I'm talking about.

[discojoe]

Everyone's welcome in gamma. Just pay the fee.

[Megan]

Maybe I'm being biased toward Gamma here, but I've never seen an ENTj participate in socially gaining up against someone. ENTjs generally find singling out one person for ridicule or mistreatment disgusting behavior, especially when it's based on popularity or the group's attitude towards that person. ENTjs would be far more likely to be irritated and ignore a situation like that, be friendly to the underdog, or fight for the underdog than take part in the type of behavior you're describing.

Do you know a lot of ENTjs? I have known a few ENTjs and sadly most of them were very much into bullying people and frequently they seem to me to be the most sadistic, persistent kind of bullies.


If Eunice thinks some of her bullies were ENTjs I am incline to believe her based on my experience with ENTjs bullies.

[FDG]

Maybe I'm being biased toward Gamma here, but I've never seen an ENTj participate in socially gaining up against someone. ENTjs generally find singling out one person for ridicule or mistreatment disgusting behavior, especially when it's based on popularity or the group's attitude towards that person. ENTjs would be far more likely to be irritated and ignore a situation like that, be friendly to the underdog, or fight for the underdog than take part in the type of behavior you're describing.

Do you know a lot of ENTjs? I have known a few ENTjs and sadly most of them were very much into bullying people and frequently they seem to me to be the most sadistic, persistent kind of bullies.


If Eunice thinks some of her bullies were ENTjs I am incline to believe her based on my experience with ENTjs bullies.

I think they were all ESTps, or at least quadra people, really.

[Megan]

I think they were all ESTps, or at least quadra people, really.

Why do you think that?

Even if they were ESTps in this case, I find from my own experience that ENTjs are often bullies. I think some of them really just take the quest for dominance and control too far.

[Joy]

I think they were all ESTps, or at least quadra people, really.

Why do you think that?

He's mocking me.

Even if they were ESTps in this case, I find from my own experience that ENTjs are often bullies. I think some of them really just take the quest for dominance and control too far.

Sure, any type can be mean... the specific way that eunice described these people didn't sound ENTj though. They weren't being controlling or whatever. They were socially gaining up against the uncool kid with the other cool kids. It's not that I can't see any Fi > Fe type doing this... just not ENTjs, for the most part.

[eunice]

I think they were all ESTps, or at least quadra people, really.

Why do you think that?

He's mocking me.

Even if they were ESTps in this case, I find from my own experience that ENTjs are often bullies. I think some of them really just take the quest for dominance and control too far.

Sure, any type can be mean... the specific way that eunice described these people didn't sound ENTj though. They weren't being controlling or whatever. They were socially gaining up against the uncool kid with the other cool kids. It's not that I can't see any Fi > Fe type doing this... just not ENTjs, for the most part.

I don't think anybody in my school (especially in my class) consider them cool at all and others had commented that they were the worst bunch of guys they have ever seen. I bet even INFps couldn't stand them. However, most people avoid them to stay out of trouble.

I think unhealthy ENTjs might be apt to participate in bullying behaviors due to their HA.

[Joy]

Yeah, but it wouldn't generally be done the same way you're describing.

[Megan]

Yeah, but it wouldn't generally be done the same way you're describing.

I have seen it done in nearly the exact way she has described.

Extraverted people in the traditional understanding of the term, regardless of quadra, are usually group orientated and tend to do things like what Eunice described with others. I am sure I have seen ENTjs (especially the loud, outgoing, "I know everything" ones) group up with others to bully people sometimes even physically and what Eunice wrote sounds very familiar.