Ni hidden agenda of ISFjs and ISTjs

[UDP]

Does this have to do with asking plans and such? I find myself doing this frequently, and I know an IStj I know does it all the time. She is an subtype though, and seems very insecure to me, because if things do not go exactly as planned she gets very irate. Perhaps from living with with so many alphas and Si people I am used to it and am trained to be more flexible. N'rtheless, it makes a lot of sense to see myself as having an Ni HA - I am always asking people about plans and the direction they want to go in, and I would very much appreciate help with that, more so than Si. Also, by asking people about this frequently, it seems to get them thinking about things in advance, so everything goes smoothly - something I feel somewhat responsible for, though, as you can see, it is something I feel I must collaborate with people about.


Can you give me some examples of HA?

[Expat]

Ni HA is about wanting to think in the longer term and about "more meaningful" things than just the daily, physical affairs, but not being sure about it. A typical manifestation of Ni HA is the ISXj who knows they have to do something and they have some time to do it; but they keep thinking about it so they do it immediately. It's the reason for ISXjs being "hard workers" and "responsible" -- that actually that are not comfortable about leaving things for later.

A way of seeing Ni HA is that their Se keeps pulling their thoughts into reality.

While a Ni person is comfortable about going, in their minds, wandering off, "yes -- I should do that -- it's a good idea -- maybe if I do this, or that, to improve it -- maybe if I wait for that to happen? Yes -- " the ISXj will go, "yes -- I should so that -- it's a good idea" ---> ok, I'll do it right now!

Their Se keeps overruling their Ni. It's both a bad and a good thing (as everything in socionics).

[Joy]

As far as getting stuff done, ISxjs see stuff as "done" or "not done". If it needs to be done and isn't, they won't feel comfortable not getting it done right away unless someone assures them that it doesn't need to be done yet. They just don't have a natural grasp of that flow which tells ENxjs when things should ideally get done in relation to other events, and when they absolutely must be done by. For ISxjs, it'll just continue to hang over their heads as "needs to be done and is not done", a very unpleasant nagging thought for them.

What Expat explained about needing to know that their daily activities have some purpose in the big picture as it relates to a long term plan is very accurate. Se is their creative function, so it's not something that they feel inclined to just throw around all over the place without a point or purpose. They want to use it to accomplish something, and Ni assures them that their Se will not be used in vain. Similarly, the Se of ISxjs assures ENxjs that their Ni will not be used in vain by pushing them through those daily activities that need to get done in order to see their Ni visions of the future realized (not sure if this applies to ENFjs the same way it does to ENTjs).

[Joy]

Their Se keeps overruling their Ni. It's both a bad and a good thing (as everything in socionics).

The axis just needs to be balanced out within a dual pair. That's all.

[UDP]

A way of seeing Ni HA is that their Se keeps pulling their thoughts into reality.

So like, if I wanted help aligning things so there is a smooth transition into reality - that would be an Ni HA example ? I greatly enjoy making things play out in real life - and administrating that real life flow. But help with that, like planning ahead, as well as advice as things unfold in real time, would be nice.

A bit like James Bond - always getting advice from M and Q and the rest of his MI6 support crew while he's on a mission? And the briefing before hand perhaps?


Not that I am saying Bond is any type in particular, just using that as a sort of analogy.

[FDG]

As far as getting stuff done, ISxjs see stuff as "done" or "not done". If it needs to be done and isn't, they won't feel comfortable not getting it done right away unless someone assures them that it doesn't need to be done yet. They just don't have a natural grasp of that flow which tells ENxjs when things should ideally get done in relation to other events, and when they absolutely must be done by. For ISxjs, it'll just continue to hang over their heads as "needs to be done and is not done", a very unpleasant nagging thought for them.

Something very important to add: ISxjs can get stuck in the "not done" place when they are not sure of their capability of actually getting done what they want to execute. Especially true of course for ISFjs in Te matters that they have never ecountered before (Ne PoLR). In this case their behaviour might look like the opposite of what has been explained, but it's just that there's the need for a Te input.

[Expat]

Their Se keeps overruling their Ni. It's both a bad and a good thing (as everything in socionics).

The axis just needs to be balanced out within a dual pair. That's all.

Yes, I agree.

[Joy]

As far as getting stuff done, ISxjs see stuff as "done" or "not done". If it needs to be done and isn't, they won't feel comfortable not getting it done right away unless someone assures them that it doesn't need to be done yet. They just don't have a natural grasp of that flow which tells ENxjs when things should ideally get done in relation to other events, and when they absolutely must be done by. For ISxjs, it'll just continue to hang over their heads as "needs to be done and is not done", a very unpleasant nagging thought for them.

Something very important to add: ISxjs can get stuck in the "not done" place when they are not sure of their capability of actually getting done what they want to execute. Especially true of course for ISFjs in Te matters that they have never ecountered before (Ne PoLR). In this case their behaviour might look like the opposite of what has been explained, but it's just that there's the need for a Te input.

VERY good point. I don't know enough about ENFj/ISTj duality to speak on the similarities and differences, but what FDG said is very true of ISFjs in my observations. They can get stuck in a state of anxiously needing to have something do apply their Se towards but being unable to decide the best course of action. It's a very miserable place for them to be... needing to do but being unable to determine what to do. It's equally horrible for ENTjs to be stuck in the opposite predicament... needing to plan but being unable to put their plans into action on a daily level. A similar anxiety sets in, though of course the causes and cures are different.

When ISFjs get stuck like that, it takes a large amount of Te + Ni to get them unstuck, and they could still be uncomfortable for a while and in need of continued extra Te + Ni support. (The same applies to ENTjs with Fi + Se.)

[Kristiina]

Ni HA is about wanting to think in the longer term and about "more meaningful" things than just the daily, physical affairs, but not being sure about it. A typical manifestation of Ni HA is the ISXj who knows they have to do something and they have some time to do it; but they keep thinking about it so they do it immediately. It's the reason for ISXjs being "hard workers" and "responsible" -- that actually that are not comfortable about leaving things for later.

A way of seeing Ni HA is that their Se keeps pulling their thoughts into reality.

While a Ni person is comfortable about going, in their minds, wandering off, "yes -- I should do that -- it's a good idea -- maybe if I do this, or that, to improve it -- maybe if I wait for that to happen? Yes -- " the ISXj will go, "yes -- I should so that -- it's a good idea" ---> ok, I'll do it right now!

Their Se keeps overruling their Ni. It's both a bad and a good thing (as everything in socionics).

This would be very good information for anyone who wants to know more about Ni as hidden agenda. I don't really understand how the wikisocion works, but this should probably be added here: http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...rted_intuition
Technically I know how wikipedias work, but I have a hard time trying to feel comfortable writing anything. Wikisocion seems very formal to me and I am always afraid of "wrecking" the educational formal atmosphere of wikisocion to add such very beneficial but less formal text. The post is considerably easier to read and gives considerably more information. I think wikisocion is very Te-influenced and I'm feeling unsure and afraid of making a fool of myself when using Te without anyone double-checking everything that I write. Mhh... I should probably just start writing less informal and not entirely thought-out short articles there. If I make some mistakes, someone else can correct me, because that's how wikipedias work.

The individual periodically needs an outside evaluation of how a situation is likely to develop in order to keep from worrying excessively. Without an outside reassurance that a task can be accomplished in time without hurry, or that there is no need to deal with an ongoing development and that for the moment it's best to wait and see, the individual is anxious and inclined to try to deal with such issues immediately and sometimes impulsively.

[UDP]

As far as getting stuff done, ISxjs see stuff as "done" or "not done". If it needs to be done and isn't, they won't feel comfortable not getting it done right away unless someone assures them that it doesn't need to be done yet. They just don't have a natural grasp of that flow which tells ENxjs when things should ideally get done in relation to other events, and when they absolutely must be done by. For ISxjs, it'll just continue to hang over their heads as "needs to be done and is not done", a very unpleasant nagging thought for them.

Something very important to add: ISxjs can get stuck in the "not done" place when they are not sure of their capability of actually getting done what they want to execute. Especially true of course for ISFjs in Te matters that they have never ecountered before (Ne PoLR). In this case their behaviour might look like the opposite of what has been explained, but it's just that there's the need for a Te input.

VERY good point. I don't know enough about ENFj/ISTj duality to speak on the similarities and differences, but what FDG said is very true of ISFjs in my observations. They can get stuck in a state of anxiously needing to have something do apply their Se towards but being unable to decide the best course of action. It's a very miserable place for them to be... needing to do but being unable to determine what to do. It's equally horrible for ENTjs to be stuck in the opposite predicament... needing to plan but being unable to put their plans into action on a daily level. A similar anxiety sets in, though of course the causes and cures are different.

When ISFjs get stuck like that, it takes a large amount of Te + Ni to get them unstuck, and they could still be uncomfortable for a while and in need of continued extra Te + Ni support. (The same applies to ENTjs with Fi + Se.)

I realize a lot of my hesitation to assert myself has to do with uncertainty about .

[implied]

Ni HA is about wanting to think in the longer term and about "more meaningful" things than just the daily, physical affairs, but not being sure about it. A typical manifestation of Ni HA is the ISXj who knows they have to do something and they have some time to do it; but they keep thinking about it so they do it immediately. It's the reason for ISXjs being "hard workers" and "responsible" -- that actually that are not comfortable about leaving things for later.

A way of seeing Ni HA is that their Se keeps pulling their thoughts into reality.

While a Ni person is comfortable about going, in their minds, wandering off, "yes -- I should do that -- it's a good idea -- maybe if I do this, or that, to improve it -- maybe if I wait for that to happen? Yes -- " the ISXj will go, "yes -- I should so that -- it's a good idea" ---> ok, I'll do it right now!

Their Se keeps overruling their Ni. It's both a bad and a good thing (as everything in socionics).

This would be very good information for anyone who wants to know more about Ni as hidden agenda.

very much agree. great stuff!

[Expat]

VERY good point. I don't know enough about ENFj/ISTj duality to speak on the similarities and differences, but what FDG said is very true of ISFjs in my observations. They can get stuck in a state of anxiously needing to have something do apply their Se towards but being unable to decide the best course of action. It's a very miserable place for them to be... needing to do but being unable to determine what to do.

Yes.

When ISFjs get stuck like that, it takes a large amount of Te + Ni to get them unstuck, and they could still be uncomfortable for a while and in need of continued extra Te + Ni support. (The same applies to ENTjs with Fi + Se.)

Assuming, of course, that even Te + Ni has a solution

[FDG]

When ISFjs get stuck like that, it takes a large amount of Te + Ni to get them unstuck, and they could still be uncomfortable for a while and in need of continued extra Te + Ni support. (The same applies to ENTjs with Fi + Se.)

You first have to have sex with them, and then explain just after the orgasm. It's a problem if you can't make them orgasm though. I think this, too, should be added to wikisocion.

[Joy]

When ISFjs get stuck like that, it takes a large amount of Te + Ni to get them unstuck, and they could still be uncomfortable for a while and in need of continued extra Te + Ni support. (The same applies to ENTjs with Fi + Se.)

Assuming, of course, that even Te + Ni has a solution

true

It's a problem if you can't make them orgasm though.

[FDG]

When ISFjs get stuck like that, it takes a large amount of Te + Ni to get them unstuck, and they could still be uncomfortable for a while and in need of continued extra Te + Ni support. (The same applies to ENTjs with Fi + Se.)

Assuming, of course, that even Te + Ni has a solution

true

It's a problem if you can't make them orgasm though.

Yeah well, you're a woman, so you can't relate, I understand.

[Joy]

Yeah.

Even so, somethings take more than the right words at the right moment to fix. Years of anxiety doesn't go away in one conversation, though I do think that things can be a lot better after one conversation if a lot of their concerns were answered. Unless, as Expat said, it's something that Te + Ni just can't fix.

[Expat]

You first have to have sex with them, and then explain just after the orgasm. It's a problem if you can't make them orgasm though. I think this, too, should be added to wikisocion.

There is a category for "socionics hypotheses", you can create a page on socionics and orgasm.

[Exodus]

Technically I know how wikipedias work, but I have a hard time trying to feel comfortable writing anything. Wikisocion seems very formal to me and I am always afraid of "wrecking" the educational formal atmosphere of wikisocion to add such very beneficial but less formal text. The post is considerably easier to read and gives considerably more information. I think wikisocion is very Te-influenced and I'm feeling unsure and afraid of making a fool of myself when using Te without anyone double-checking everything that I write. Mhh... I should probably just start writing less informal and not entirely thought-out short articles there. If I make some mistakes, someone else can correct me, because that's how wikipedias work.

You should definitely contribute. I agree it's very much Te-dominated right now - but I'm working to change that.

[Kristiina]

Technically I know how wikipedias work, but I have a hard time trying to feel comfortable writing anything. Wikisocion seems very formal to me and I am always afraid of "wrecking" the educational formal atmosphere of wikisocion to add such very beneficial but less formal text. The post is considerably easier to read and gives considerably more information. I think wikisocion is very Te-influenced and I'm feeling unsure and afraid of making a fool of myself when using Te without anyone double-checking everything that I write. Mhh... I should probably just start writing less informal and not entirely thought-out short articles there. If I make some mistakes, someone else can correct me, because that's how wikipedias work.

You should definitely contribute. I agree it's very much Te-dominated right now - but I'm working to change that.

Haha, in that case I'll help you change that.

[ladyinred]

Ni HA is about wanting to think in the longer term and about "more meaningful" things than just the daily, physical affairs, but not being sure about it. A typical manifestation of Ni HA is the ISXj who knows they have to do something and they have some time to do it; but they keep thinking about it so they do it immediately. It's the reason for ISXjs being "hard workers" and "responsible" -- that actually that are not comfortable about leaving things for later.

A way of seeing Ni HA is that their Se keeps pulling their thoughts into reality.

While a Ni person is comfortable about going, in their minds, wandering off, "yes -- I should do that -- it's a good idea -- maybe if I do this, or that, to improve it -- maybe if I wait for that to happen? Yes -- " the ISXj will go, "yes -- I should so that -- it's a good idea" ---> ok, I'll do it right now!

Their Se keeps overruling their Ni. It's both a bad and a good thing (as everything in socionics).

yes, excellent insight

Ni HA can be fristrating in my duals at times but once we learn to trust each other more they rely on me to provide and then all is well:wink:

[ashlesha]

what does it look like to you?

[Gravolez]

Maybe everyone's HA IE looks like trying too hard to the people with this IE in the ego block.

[ashlesha]

so what happens when somebody tries too hard with Ni?

[ashlesha]

you guys are annoying I might as well make another thread about guys in wheelchairs getting vaginas rubbed on their heads. this is what I get for trying ok

[Absurd]

you guys are annoying I might as well make another thread about guys in wheelchairs getting vaginas rubbed on their heads. this is what I get for trying ok

Heh.

For me, Ni polr is, I am right on time and I say fuck off to whomever isn't. Oh and you socionics freaks, live in that bubble.

[Gravolez]

I have too little observation on such people. The ESIs are receptive to my explanations but they lack the perspective that I have. This makes them much more productive cause they only resort to Ni occasionally and they don't bother with the past and the future as much as I do.

[Ozz]

Oscillation between over-confident and under-confident?

[Cuddly McFluffles]

There was a thread... somewhere. IIRC, it talked about how one of HA's problems is that it can't really gauge time(/timing?) well, so there's always this sense of "gotta do this now" that plagues them. If I find it again, I will let you know.

[Ningyo]

Overconfident/underconfident sounds about right to me. Ni-HA types I know tend to act pretty helpless when it comes to matters of timing. If they find one method that worked once or twice in that regard (such as getting called back for an interview the one time they applied for a job during x time or season), they'll stick to it even though there might be easier/better ones available, and get frustrated when/if this method stops working. They also seem to be (at least, to me) a little blind to the consequences of their poor choices and how they're really going to be affected by them in the long run.

For instance: my LSI brother tries to stay home from school practically every day. Sometimes our mom really doesn't have time to fight with him about it and will say, "Fine, but you can't use your PS3 for the next three weeks." Which he consents to, because at the moment, the most important thing to him is sleeping. Three days later, he "can't believe" he ever agreed to that. My EII sibling and I usually try to warn him about this stuff, but he always seems to believe he knows better than anyone else does.

[anndelise]

I hesitantly think that Ni Hidden Agenda might involve
a) trying to find meaning...from life, experiences, ideas, personal relationships, etc.
and/or b) trying to find how things, people, ideas, or events interrelate with each other. Like wanting to find the patterns and cycles that occur in interactions.

I imagine it would be similar to trying to see things in a similar way that Ni base types see things.

[d1ffe7]

i agree with anndelise. i think of it as too wanting to understand or be told how certain decisions will affect things in the future by piecing together patterns from what's happened in the past, though I think that applies to ni-seeking in general.

an see friend of mine and i talk through our decisions (especially her relationships) and make connections/speculate about how it might turn out or has turned out, which i think of as an clearcut ni/se interaction if there could be such a thing

[ashlesha]

What you said. Wanting ideas, insights, 'wisdom', general patterns that tie together/explain life in a way that makes sense, perspectives into the implicit natures of people and situations… Ni-seeking stuff.

Also something about understanding the etiology of one's own mentations… as in, learning how to better step back and distinguish their own mental states, the evolving trajectories of these and likely life consequences of them; which might be more a ɣ-SF (double-involved) thing, with their ɣ-NT (double-abstract) duals frequently dwelling in states of detached metacognition.

this is really good and strikes a chord but its pretty straightforward seeking, do you differentiate how it works w/ the HA?

[golden]

To me the difference between the HA and the Ni ego as I see it in me and my friends etc. is that Ni-HA has a kind of intensity or edge to it, because it is something actively sought "out there" in the world. For me, Ni in the ego is pretty relaxed, just a given, no big deal.

Also I've pointed out to my s.o. that he seems more into things stereotypically Ni-related than I do, and his response was that it may look that way, but he feels he is "limited" in that arena--and iirc he used the phrase "it feels incomplete"--whereas he thinks I am not.

I think his Ni stuff really draws attention to itself, is quite externalized, organized, there are a lot of trappings, there is a lot of amassed knowledge. It doesn't seem wrong or anything that it's like that ... just that to me it's not necessary.

[ashlesha]

you strike me as more demonstrably Ni>Te-seeking whereas an ESI like blackburry comes across more Te>Ni-seeking; similarly, an SEE like woofwoofl strikes me as more strongly Te>Ni-seeking whereas one like dolphin feels more Ni>Te-seeking.

i've noticed these things too.

overall your post matches my thoughts based on what ive seen so it didnt clarify anything but its cool to see CONVERGENCE anyways.

[anndelise]

this is really good and strikes a chord but its pretty straightforward seeking, do you differentiate how it works w/ the HA?

I know this is more abstract and recital than you are asking for, but:

DS vs HA

As a person attempts to obtain a picture of reality and/or connect with their environment, The DS Element compliments the Base Element. Together they compose the center of one's socionics personality. But the DS is limited to personally experiencing patterns and generalizations relevant to it's Element, with difficulty thinking and communicating about it...and when tries to, is sensitive to criticism. So while this info makes up a major influence on the socionics personality, it plays more of a behind the scenes support role to the Base Element.

The HA Element mobilizes the Creative Element into molding the picture of reality (obtained by the Base & DS). The HA not only utilizes personal experiences and generalizations related to its Element, but the HA also helps in recognizing and applying environmental standard practices of its Element. A person has an easier time thinking and communicating about this Element, and actively seeks this activity out as they try to understand their world around them. It is, however, a Vital Element, not a Mental one. A person may be reliant on reciting in some way what others have said about the related info, particularly if the other person is familiar with dealing with that type of Info.*The focus, however, isn't so much on the HA Element...but in using the HA Element in molding an image of reality.

Basically, the DS & HA play supporting roles in understanding reality,
But the HA is not quite as behind-the-scene as the DS Element.

[strrrng]

I hesitantly think that Ni Hidden Agenda might involve
a) trying to find meaning...from life, experiences, ideas, personal relationships, etc.
and/or b) trying to find how things, people, ideas, or events interrelate with each other. Like wanting to find the patterns and cycles that occur in interactions.

I imagine it would be similar to trying to see things in a similar way that Ni base types see things.

the Se-sub people I talk to tend to rattle off experiences and events in a haphazard way, don't really seem to wait for a response, but always listen when one is given. I've noticed this more in the Se-IJs, the EPs like to build the momentum more than harness it. but in both cases there's a clear search for continuity, it doesn't have to be anything complex or mystical, just a way to frame the scenario that helps them move on to the next without undue repetition. in some ways it's more efficient with the IJs, because of how anchored they are in the experiences; but they can often feel too abrupt, whereas the EPs never seem to stray from the basic rhythm of the interaction. all in all, I think Se/Ni seeking has a lot more to do with how one orients their day-to-day experience than any deeper pursuit of meaning or whatever. also, these tendencies are much less marked in the beta/gamma j-subs ime.

[717495]

I was just thinking about this today briefly, it seems like we view our super-id as our 'entitlement' while our ego is a means of 'ownership' or capital. Funny, it's almost the same thing but isn't. I would say super-id flows in and ego flows out. The reason HA can come off strong is because we're signaling that it be respected and admired, hopefully because we're a big deal.

[ashlesha]

socionics on my brain too much, but something last night reminded me of this. i was reading reviews of the picture of dorian gray and they were talking about the homosexual undertones in the book. and while i was reading the book i picked up on those undertones and dismissed them as probably just being my own brain creating implications that weren't there, so i was surprised to see that i was actually right to begin with. and there are other times i pick up on implicit currents and run too far with them even though they really ARE just in my head and end up making an ass of myself in a conspiracy theorist way. so there's an under/overconfidence when it comes to picking up on that sort of stuff. related, i think?

[zomgqwantz]

an attraction to mysticism

[strangeling]

*This is just a conceptualization for Lungs to think about, if she wants. I may or may not reply to anyone else who may quote me, especially if I feel it is an attempt to instill psychological harm, try to enforce assertions as fact and/or without any supporting reason, or ridicule the idea of talking about socionics as it pertains to identity - it's indecent to attack someone's identity, rather than their flaws (and I won't debate any of this).



I like the idea of breadth and depth. It fits pretty well for me and most people who I've typed accurately. HA being breadth and Creative being depth, so here's an outline:

In the case of XSI, only logically speaking, as real as it might or might not be, Ni breadth would see all the contradictory meanings behind things and at times worry about which one is applicable, listening to what others say, but internally never really agreeing or disagreeing with anyone (although it may look that way), instead seeing the idea of truth as something abstract, individual, and something each person must ultimately decide on themselves.

With appropriate Se experiences, the contradictory meanings are alleviated and less consideration is put into what other people say, since one feels they can cut through all the political bullshit, and they would become much more stubborn, some might say.
In a way though, the polr could be understood somewhat practically here; hesitation tends to be a result of thinking Se is complete, formulating Ni, and being wrong or having things turn out badly through action. In this sense, that stubbornness would go away, hesitation would engage Ni to accumulate breadth and Ne would be engaged impassively to sort it through depth (the deficiency of the PoLR becomes more of a proficiency).
I know hkkmr presented the idea that the creative function is an area that deals with negative reinforcement. Perhaps he would be right in that it is positive action to avoid negative reaction. But I feel existentially, that it is a mostly relieving function, one of freedom, a release from the unconscious (from doubt) and might be better understood as action with the intent or sole purpose of creating positive reinforcement. Now extroverts may view this differently, as they are primarily attuned to extroversion foremost and it may arguably depend on what functions are the HA/Creative, I suppose. Then this is just an epistemological difference rather than a technical one, but a difference no less.

This, to me at the moment, as far as I'm aware and as far as I can recollect momentarily and as far as I can discern, is more of a concrete behaviorist approach, rather than a cognitive or trait based approach, I suppose. That's good or bad, depending on how one sees it, I suppose, as with probably most things. Maybe.