Me

[Expat]

I know what you mean, and I don't see Diana as doing the latter any more than, say, Minde does. And of course the former is not a universal characteristic of Ne.

I don't mean this badly, but to me the differences between Minde and Diana in this regard are obvious, very clearly so, but I ask for understanding if I decline to actually go dig up the relevant mails to make the point.

[Ezra]

Fair enough. But look at dee. He looks at every type, even though originally it was limited. It´s only a matter of time before Diana goes "oooh, actually, I don´t know what I am. I´ll consider every type!"

Dee does not know what he is doing. Diana knows she is at least IJ. Dee is unaware of temperments, which is a huge problem, because it is impossible to really consider yourself to be both EP and IJ, for example. You also have/had that problem, Ezra.

Correct. I´ve never even considered temperaments. I´ll look into them at Wikisocion when I get home tomorrow.

Would you say temperaments are good place to start when considering type?

[UDP]

Yes, I would.

[Ezra]

Right, I couldn´t be arsed waiting, so I just had a look at them now. EP and EJ for me. EP more likely.

[Exodus]

I know what you mean, and I don't see Diana as doing the latter any more than, say, Minde does. And of course the former is not a universal characteristic of Ne.

I don't mean this badly, but to me the differences between Minde and Diana in this regard are obvious, very clearly so, but I ask for understanding if I decline to actually go dig up the relevant mails to make the point.

Agree to disagree?

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Slacker]

I am absolutely positive I have had somewhat confrontational discussions with Diana, but I don't remember the specifics. Some of this discussion is what kind of vibe we get off Diana, and that's so subjective that it's hard to assess. I might have an easier time telling my mirror from my supervisee than Gilly would have telling his conflictor from his supervisor, but that doesn't necessarily make me right. She's probably the best person to figure out which she is between the two.

[Gilly]

I agree, Expat, that Quadra values have a lot to do with it, but not so much as to override everything else. So MY trouble is, I haven't seen anything remotely Se or Ni from Diana. Ever. Not on the forum, not in the chat, not in the pictures, not in the videos...nothing.

You see Ne instead? Both videos - the one where I'm talking to the camera and the one where I'm just doing stuff while the camera runs seem Ne to you because. . .?

I understand what hotelambush is saying about the first video, and some of the similarities between his and mine - that I can see. I get where INFj comes from there - wow it's really raining good here! - but what says Ne so loudly in the 2nd? And -- I wonder if you don't sometimes confuse introversion + IJ temperament for Ne.

I'm trying to get you to explain your reasoning here. And I've had this stupid computer on all day while doing this and that around here. . . won't somebody come move to Casper? How about you all do. It'll be fun. . . or something. Ah, I have the paper- got it to look and see what things around here I could occupy myself with, which reminds me I'll go do that. Anyway, reasons please.

@hotel: I doubt you'll be able to find any threads where I have been arguing or confrontational because I believe mcnew deleted them all.

It's not that I see Ne so much as a lack of Se. You don't project any kind of feeling of physical comfort or confidence; quite the opposite, or so it seems (please don't take this the wrong way ). Your eyes also look "spaced out;" Se types almost always have that "jacked in" look in the eyes, especially from that close of a view. The video of Christopher Langan on Rick's website is a perfect example of this, as is the video that Expat used for typing Meg Ryan. Those are my only points as far as VI goes.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Gilly]

(from a pm)

Your video of you talking, on the other hand, is, as you said, something that was "new" for you, and you showed pretty obviously (again, please try not to take offense ; these are only observations) that you weren't comfortable. Now, granted, an ESI might be uncomfortable talking into a camera, too, and it could be blatantly obvious if she stammers or draws blanks or whatever, but she would at least appear physically confident, even if she was messing everything else up.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Gilly]

So I guess we'll just take it to the thread, then?

Mas PMage:

...You can do handstands and fly planes; this doesn't make you . I can do the same with my houses, and I only lived in one of them for the first 2 years of my life. Physical skill/prowess/proficiency =/= physical confidence, and I guess you have a good long term memory like me

Besides, physical confidence is not limited to being coordinated or having good motor skills. It's a sort of "je ne sais quoi" kind of thing: physical comfort isn't just something that's used, it's something that's projected by the way you move, your body language, and so on, and I'm sorry if you're wanting to be ESI, but I don't see it in you.

[Gilly]

I'm kind of surprised that Gilly identifies with this so well, particularly the bolded part:

I really want to be a little less stiff and contained - but it's hard. So I'm attempting to relax. I spend a lot of energy (too much) trying to be nice, trying to be perfect, containing what I think

You think I can afford to be this irreverent in real life?

[Gilly]

So MY trouble is, I haven't seen anything remotely Se or Ni from Diana. Ever. Not on the forum, not in the chat, not in the pictures, not in the videos...nothing.

Briefly describe Se and Ni for me Gilligan. Is Se to you when people act like spoiled little children and yell obsenities? If so, you're right, not much of that. There was some talk awhile back equating metaphorical speech with Ni. Would you disagree with that? Would you disagree with the fact that I use a lot of figurative language, waxing poetical at times? Or, perhaps you'd like to say that it's Ne. Now, show me an example of another Ne person that does that. I'm genuinely curious as to where your ideas are coming from. If you can back them up, then that's something to consider.

I HAVE seen her throwing random ideas out and acting in a stereotypically Ne-silly way before with Slacker Mom and perhaps some of the other Deltas.

and betas, and alphas. In the chat Jadae, and Auvi, and twoguns would sometimes be just as silly as anndelise and I, and we'd all goof off adding our own silliness in. Does that make those 3 betas into deltas?

Bleh, I'm not going to define Se for you, for crying out loud...if you think it's your function, then you should know what it is. I don't think being poetic has shit to do with being Ni, either; that's just bullshit right there. And I am the absolute KING of metaphors and allegories, so you can take that idea out of your head.

I never said that throwing around ideas makes EVERYONE Ne. I DID say that throwing whacky ideas around all the time, particularly with someone of an Ne quadra, points decidedly away from ESI.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Creepy-Diana]

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[Creepy-bg]

...IQPj...

can we get this added to the poll?

*smacks myself so nobody else has to*

[Blaze]

well based on this interaction between gilly and diana, i think i'm starting to lean toward isfj! there's an equal feel to it, rather than a supervisor feel. :-)

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Khamelion]

well based on this interaction between gilly and diana, i think i'm starting to lean toward isfj! there's an equal feel to it, rather than a supervisor feel. :-)

lol i actually agree with that supervision sentiment a bit



I'm not going to pretend to know Diana's type, but this...

ARRRGHHGH. Would you be very upset if I flew there for the express purpose of slowing torturing him to death?

...looks and sounds to me like Se, fueled by intense Fi. bwahaha (too bad we dont have a devil smiley haha)

[Gilly]

Excuse me.

I think at this point I've proven that my arguments are not baseless, and are also not rooted solely in VI.

The flying thing means you have steady hands. Whoopdy fuck.

The handstand thing is the closest you come to , but it still means fuck-all.

I TOLD you what physical confidence means, and you've never shown me anything indicating that you have it. In fact, you've shown me something indicating that you don't. So EXCUSE ME for not just believing you.

I don't give a flying fuck what Olga thinks. She's a raving lunatic who thinks that peoples' favorite colors have something to do with what type they are. Great argument from authority there; you can't even do logical fallacies correctly, let alone make a point!

Projecting a sense of bodily confidence has to do with Fe? Hmmm...try proving that one.

I could just as easily say that the only people seeing Se in you are from Se quadras. Moot point, and either way it doesn't mean anything when it comes to determining your type.

No, they don't drip much of anything And I never said that you do, either. I said you show it every so often, which would be appropriate, considering it's your 2nd function, and your subtype (as I see it) leans away from it.

I don't know why you're being so hostile all of a sudden. I've been trying to give you my argument for your type, and all you can do is sit here and try to accuse me of making shit up, when I'm CLEARLY not. I've been SINCERELY trying to help you figure out your type, since I THOUGHT that you were genuinely interested in my opinion (though now I don't know WHAT gave me that impression), but now, after this, I honestly don't give a shit. I'm not wasting any more of my time on you, Diana.

[anndelise]

*sigh*

and the unspoken truce comes to an end

[meatburger]

Hmm i dont know how much Se you would see over the internet in an ISFj to be honest. ISFj's are pretty polite people from my experience. My mum says she used to be shy when she was younger and she regrets all the times when she didn't stick up for herself. I hear her ringing up people to tell them she doesn't agreee with their policies all the time and shes forceful but theres still a little quiver in her voice. She never forces her opinon on others in fact she tends to keep quiet about it so she doesn't upset the apple cart. The Se is definately there though, when my ISTj dad tells her to do something shes not a wallflower and will argue with him if needed. Like if he tells her shes doing something wrong she will just say "im doing it just be thankful that im doing it" in a forceful voice. She never actually cries shes a tough little cookie.

In fact i think one of the ways her Se manifests itself is that shes not lazy. Shes always busy always cleaning, always sowing a hole im my pants or weeding the garden. Ever seen an ISFj clean? She will pick up dirt before it hits the ground.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Blaze]

diana's post below is pretty Se. hahaha guess she finally let the viper out! you go girl hahaha

...You can do handstands and fly planes; this doesn't make you . I can do the same with my houses, and I only lived in one of them for the first 2 years of my life. Physical skill/prowess/proficiency =/= physical confidence, and I guess you have a good long term memory like me

Besides, physical confidence is not limited to being coordinated or having good motor skills. It's a sort of "je ne sais quoi" kind of thing: physical comfort isn't just something that's used, it's something that's projected by the way you move, your body language, and so on, and I'm sorry if you're wanting to be ESI, but I don't see it in you.

Okay, first you say oh you're doing something that's routine, that doesn't show whether you're physically confident or not -- so I show you where I've done things without them being routine at all, with no problem, and this is what you say.

It's odd that an ISFj (Olga) would think I was ISFj then, isn't it? It's odd that several NeFi's see the Fi clearly and also the lack of Ne clearly in me. All you can see is the Fi, and you make things up from there. It's also odd that so far only people from non-Se valuing quadras say I lack any Se? I don't think you even know what you're looking for. What you're looking for is a projection (Fe Fe Fe) of Se - you can't see it without that. ESTps clearly SHOW it, it's projected, it's Fe-expressed, ISTjs also do to a lesser degree -- but what is it really? Do INFjs and INTjs drip with "Ne-goofiness" as you put it? Do they demonstrate their Ne the way you expect Se to be demonstrated? Clearly not.

It's not me wanting to be anything Gilligan. I started this thread to call you out on your baseless opinions. Whether anyone thinks I'm INFj, ISFj, IQPj doesn't make any difference at all - it doesn't change anything. I'm still exactly the same person no matter what letters are stuck on me. I know which type fits me best, and don't need anyone telling me what it is, or agreeing with me. I also know that I can get along with pretty much anyone of any type with some effort, and I don't need socionics to tell me why I don't like some people and like others. But I'm not going to drop it. That you can't see something only shows your lack of skill and insight, not that it isn't there.

[implied]

l-o-l that ISFjs are supposed to be the hardest type to convince and diana is having this argument with gilly. the irony!

[ScarlettLux]

Yah hahaha, he's ENTp, she's ISFj

Let the battle continue! RAH!

[Creepy-Diana]

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[ScarlettLux]

Gilligan gave up. I win. :wink:

For the record, you do seem ISFj, much more assertive and even more confrontational.. this whole thread was you defending yourself

[Creepy-Diana]

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[UDP]

ISFj

[Blaze]

huh now you gotta join gamma diana.

[Joy]

lol

she's known that she's ISFj for a long time

[anndelise]

Diana, I'm curious.
Which aspects (if any) do you feel fit you regarding what i wrote about Se and Ne in the other thread?

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Khamelion]

I don't know if my hint was caught but I actually do think ISFj is highly likely... :wink:

[Expat]

you and Joy (two people that, I might add, both like Diana very much and are, or claim to be, in the quadra that the type they are trying to convince her she is belongs....not to question your objectivity or anything),

Back to this -- this is a really silly argument. I do like Diana very much . But I have also repeatedly mentioned how the most common type among my longer-term friends is INFj. So I have absolutely no motivation to "want" Diana to be ISFj if I thought she was INFj. To accuse other people of not being objective is a game anyone can play. I can also accuse you of not wanting to see that you might be wrong in this case. So?

"Trying to be perfect" is Ganin's way of phrasing the Ne-creative "conscious agenda", which I think is quite accurate.

I think this is accurate for describing INTj and INFj, but I think that is the IJ temperament as in Enneatype 1. It's not due to cre-Ne as such. I think that "to be perfect" is also not a very good way to name Ne as hidden agenda, either.

The video of Christopher Langan on Rick's website is a perfect example of this, as is the video that Expat used for typing Meg Ryan. Those are my only points as far as VI goes.

A comment on this -- that video with Meg Ryan is extremely useful because it shows her interacting with another guy, live, in an apparently unrehearsed way, in a sort of tense atmosphere. Her functional use becomes clear because of those interactions. On her own Meg Ryan doesn't seem to give off that much Se, either, not nearly as much as, say, Rebecca Romijn.

Still, clearly, on her own Meg Ryan comes across less spaced-out etc than Diana. Duh. Meg Ryan is a professional actress, so for her sake I hope that is the case. But I don't see her as obviously not INFj, either, just by watching her on her own.

[Expat]

Diana does not come across like any Se-ego type I've seen or met before. She doesn't have much in the way of physical energy or exuberance; even an Se-IJ shows signs of being very connected and having a kind of energy. When Expat and I met in person, one of the things he used to discount SLE as a type option for me was this idea of Se types obviously having "something there," a kind of force or energy that lets you know that they're in touch and ready for what comes at them. I don't have this, and neither does Diana.

Yes, but let us be clear -- we were talking about your being SLE, which is a Se dominant. We're not talking about any Se dominant for Diana. If the main type being discussed for Diana were SEE, I'd be giving this argument much more weight myself. Likewise, if you were talking about LSI rather than SLE for you, I'd have given this argument less weight (while still finding LSI unlikely, for other reasons).

[Expat]

@thehotelambush: two examples:

None of that is based on anything at all but what you say you see or don't see. What a load of crap.

I explained very clearly to you why you're an idiot, sorry you didn't understand, thus showing more proof of that.

[discojoe]

He'll be back, and with more hot air and over-analysis than ever.