Me

[discojoe]

Remember children, highlighting descriptions only works in fantasy Socionics.

[Gilly]

Try harder.

[Joy]

Ne doesn't need Te, it needs Si.

[Transigent]

Edited for gayness.

[Joy]

As much as I hate to be an ass, I'm going to have to butt in here.

People don't see Se because you're not confrontational. But there's another way Se shows up. When we get into arguments about things like abortion, you are very solid and won't budge and make it very clear that you are absolutely sure you are right and there is no validity to my point of view. That is also Se.

This is not Se at all. What does this have to do with sensing? Sure, if you were in her face and she was in yours, and you guys were getting physical about some intellectual discussion, then Se would come into play...but when there are miles of computer cable seperating, no Se.

She's pretty much saying that Diana doesn't have a Se PoLR.

The Ne though is spot on, IMO:

Ne types are more likely to say, "Well, I can see how you feel that way based on your experience . . . but . . ." There's none of that from you. You have a very firm set of beliefs.

When my INFj born-again Christian sister and I butt heads about these issues, she always backs away from the arguments a bit. She won't change her mind, but she'll hedge a bit in her speech and try to find some common ground in the discussion.

That would be where I see Se in you. And, again, in the other thread you acted anxious about Ne.

Just watched these videos at the beginning, and...as much as I suck at VI, I am just going to recommend to you, Diana, to maybe possibly consider ENFj? I don't have any reason yet (and trust me, I do not have the ability to just guess right like that) but it could be something to solve the problem.

UNLESS you are already pretty sure of your current "type" (which I don't know if you changed it from INFj or what?)

ISFj, with good reasoning INFj. I might even consider other gamma/beta introverts but only with very good reasoning, and it'd be a stretch. Bionic was joking about ESTp. Basically I could consider a number of types, BUT not for flimsy reasons. It took me a long time to decide on ISFj after being sure I was INFj. I'm more interested in why someone thinks what they do, and how they arrived at that conclusion than what type they've decided on.

[Gilly]

Ne doesn't need Te, it needs Si.

You're so fucking stupid it HURTS sometimes. You're stuck on Ti; where is your goddamn alleged Te?

[Joy]

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Transigent]

Edited for gayness.

[Joy]

As much as I hate to be an ass, I'm going to have to butt in here.

People don't see Se because you're not confrontational. But there's another way Se shows up. When we get into arguments about things like abortion, you are very solid and won't budge and make it very clear that you are absolutely sure you are right and there is no validity to my point of view. That is also Se.

This is not Se at all. What does this have to do with sensing? Sure, if you were in her face and she was in yours, and you guys were getting physical about some intellectual discussion, then Se would come into play...but when there are miles of computer cable seperating, no Se.

She's pretty much saying that Diana doesn't have a Se PoLR.

No kidding. But she was also saying more or less that having solid views was Se, when it really isn't exactly.

A more interesting question is why having solid views and the ability to know that other beliefs are invalid...why this trait pretty much assures that the person does not have Se polr.

And I'm not saying INFjs aren't firm in their beliefs. My sister is firm in her beliefs, but she wants to get out of arguments and will make it sound like she's less firm if she thinks I'll back down. But I am under the impression that you would specifically not want to say anything that would make anyone think even slightly that you would ever back down. Se.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Joy]

Diana, that doesn't sound stupid at all. It just sounds like you value Ni.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Joy]

It does sound stupid because it's something I shouldn't need help figuring out

I think most people feel that way about something.

[meatburger]

As much as I hate to be an ass, I'm going to have to butt in here.

People don't see Se because you're not confrontational. But there's another way Se shows up. When we get into arguments about things like abortion, you are very solid and won't budge and make it very clear that you are absolutely sure you are right and there is no validity to my point of view. That is also Se.

This is not Se at all.

But that is an ISFj! And thats why what Slacker mom said was very relevant, and i think insightful. My ISFj mother is exactly like that. Her views are stronger than mine non stop. She solidifies a view and thats it, it will never change. Its like set in concrete and then buried in her mind. Ne by nature probablly weakens down my views as i have to consider the other possibilities and with more information my view could even change.

My mum is like a political activist. Whatever the liberal party does is right and whatever the labour party does is wrong. No Labour dont do anything right... EVER. She knows a butt load about politics though as she follows it 24/7 so its stupid to argue with her.

[Joy]

In my observations, they'll change their views if you present them other information or perspectives the right way. It takes time though.

[meatburger]

In my observations, they'll change their views if you present them other information or perspectives the right way. It takes time though.

Thats a good point. I didn't mean to present them in a black and white view myself! lol. Im sure anything i say falls on deaf ears. I just stay out of it

[Slacker]

It's not so much about whether or not they're willing to change their view as whether or not they're willing to let anyone else see that they might ever be willing to change their view.

[Joy]

lol yeah

[Expat]

I am envious of people who can just talk to others without worrying about what someone else is going to think, that are completely openly human, letting all their flaws and problems and everything that is them just show with no excuses or embarrassment. I worry entirely too much about what people think, and so don't let very many, if any get a chance to really know me. I really want to be a little less stiff and contained - but it's hard. So I'm attempting to relax. I spend a lot of energy (too much) trying to be nice, trying to be perfect, containing what I think, how I feel, and I don't let much out that anyone can see. I don't want to do that forever.

That is precisely one of the manifestations of Ne PoLR in ISFjs.

I think Gilligan has given very good arguments for INFj. In the video Diana struck me as INFj and in no way ISFj-Fi. She has the same kind of tendency to ramble and go off on tangents in her posts as other Ne ego types (and especially Delta NFs).

If I had no information on Diana except for VI, my first guess would also be INFj. But the thing is, I have far more information on her than VI. I do not agree with VI overruling other evidence. I have also met other women who I thought VIed as INFj but, after getting to know them better, turned out to be ISFj to my satisfaction. Meged's description of the ISFj-Fi also suggests someone like an INFj. But anyway, for those who think that VI should be given so much weight between INFj-Fi and ISFj-Fi, I think we'll have to disagree.

Expat, do you have any reasons other than Quadra values? I don't know where you guys are getting the from...

I think quadra values are very important reasons. If you don't see , perhaps you can see instead of ; I certainly do.

As much as I hate to be an ass, I'm going to have to butt in here.

People don't see Se because you're not confrontational. But there's another way Se shows up. When we get into arguments about things like abortion, you are very solid and won't budge and make it very clear that you are absolutely sure you are right and there is no validity to my point of view. That is also Se.

This is not Se at all. What does this have to do with sensing? Sure, if you were in her face and she was in yours, and you guys were getting physical about some intellectual discussion, then Se would come into play...but when there are miles of computer cable seperating, no Se.

I totally disagree with Transigent here. I think this is very much , and the "miles of computer cable separating" make little difference. It might in the case of a little kid "challenging" a bigger one online rather than in person, but the point is, that would still be valueing and evaluating . A PoLR person would not even want to do that in principle, whether live or online.

is about confrontation, because it's about two people wanting to change the static physical state each in their own favor, which in its most primitive form is about two people actually fighting each other. Verbal confrontation is but an extension of that, and from the point of view of people's motivations, the physical presence (as opposed to online presence) makes very little difference imo. Psychologically and socionically, it's all the same.

On what Gilly said about meeting him and not seeing . Yes, but we were talking about whether you were ESTp ie dominant. Based on VI I'd have a hard time seeing Diana as ESFp, too. But in the case of ISFj-Fi I have no problem with that, just like - based on VI alone - I could accept Gilly as ISTj, but not as ESTp.

[eunice]

I am envious of people who can just talk to others without worrying about what someone else is going to think, that are completely openly human, letting all their flaws and problems and everything that is them just show with no excuses or embarrassment. I worry entirely too much about what people think, and so don't let very many, if any get a chance to really know me. I really want to be a little less stiff and contained - but it's hard. So I'm attempting to relax. I spend a lot of energy (too much) trying to be nice, trying to be perfect, containing what I think, how I feel, and I don't let much out that anyone can see. I don't want to do that forever.

That is precisely one of the manifestations of Ne PoLR in ISFjs.

I would have to rethink my type then since I felt the same way 'cos I feel exactly the same way as Diana.

I have always thought that what Diana described was .

[Expat]

I would have to rethink my type then since I felt the same way 'cos I feel exactly the same way as Diana.

I have always thought that what Diana described was .

Ah, excellent point. And that's why I think that the Enneagram is on to something when they say that 6 disintegrates into 3 -- so ISFj into ENFj.

It's different. is also about one's own potential to develop their skills and to things they never thought of doing before. One of the manifestations of PoLR in ISFjs in particular is a dislike for having their potential skills and abilities being evaluated, by themselves and others, in areas they are not totally sure of themselves (when it becomes ). That is one major reason for ISFjs to conflict with ENTps -- because the ENTps tend to think they can be good, or are good, in potential skills in a way that the ISFjs see as unjustified and arrogant.

is about the emotional atmosphere from others being what one wants or expects, which is not necessarily connected to evaluations of one's potential abilities. But they may well overlap, which is precisely what I think the Enneagram got right with the 3 --> 6 and 6 -->3 arrows, and why the two types may get mixed up on occasion.

The distinction is as follows -- an ISFj concerned with the PoLR will be uncomfortable even in the presence of people s/he totally trusts in terms of in situations where the PoLR "nakedness" will be exposed, so is not a concern at all.

An ENFj will be unconcerned with the evaluation of their skills if they otherwise know that the other person only have positive and towards them.

[Ezra]

Right, ISFj and INFj. This is better progress than I made or that dee is making. You should be able to work out your type through Expat´s reasoning, and other IxFjs.

[Joy]

Diana knows her type (or at least she's reasonably confident in it... no one can KNOW their type ). I may be wrong, but I think she just started this thread to see if the claims about her type that Gilligan is making in other threads have basis in anything other than VI.

[Gilly]

I am envious of people who can just talk to others without worrying about what someone else is going to think, that are completely openly human, letting all their flaws and problems and everything that is them just show with no excuses or embarrassment. I worry entirely too much about what people think, and so don't let very many, if any get a chance to really know me. I really want to be a little less stiff and contained - but it's hard. So I'm attempting to relax. I spend a lot of energy (too much) trying to be nice, trying to be perfect, containing what I think, how I feel, and I don't let much out that anyone can see. I don't want to do that forever.

That is precisely one of the manifestations of Ne PoLR in ISFjs.

...Huh? How come I can relate to this a LOT, and how come there's nothing to do with Ne in there? Please tell me there's something I'm not seeing here.

And where did this notion that I base my typings on nothing other than VI come from? Joy, this is some serious bullshit; I'm waaay past that crap.

[Gilly]

I agree, Expat, that Quadra values have a lot to do with it, but not so much as to override everything else. So MY trouble is, I haven't seen anything remotely Se or Ni from Diana. Ever. Not on the forum, not in the chat, not in the pictures, not in the videos...nothing. I've seen her highlight Joy's descriptions (some of which SHE wrote/editted, by the way...) and say "yes" and "no" to questions you and Joy (two people that, I might add, both like Diana very much and are, or claim to be, in the quadra that the type they are trying to convince her she is belongs....not to question your objectivity or anything), but I've never seen evidence of it in any of her writing or behavior that I've obsereved.

I HAVE seen her throwing random ideas out and acting in a stereotypically Ne-silly way before with Slacker Mom and perhaps some of the other Deltas. She does, I argue, VI as EII, and her body language and presentation match. This coming to you courtesy of someone who has LIVED with two EIIs, one of each subtype, for his entire life. And she does behave socially like an EII, at least as far as I've observed in the chat: somewhat reserved, not usually in the thick of conversation but obviously paying attention and contributing thoughtfully, never really attracting attention to herself but relying on the fact that people will be interested in what she says to draw people into conversation...textbook EII.

So can you blame me? What am I missing? If there's something there I'm not seeing, please, for all of our sakes and nerves, enlighten me, because I'm sick of people just SAYING things.

[UDP]

Fair enough. But look at dee. He looks at every type, even though originally it was limited. It´s only a matter of time before Diana goes "oooh, actually, I don´t know what I am. I´ll consider every type!"

Dee does not know what he is doing. Diana knows she is at least IJ. Dee is unaware of temperments, which is a huge problem, because it is impossible to really consider yourself to be both EP and IJ, for example. You also have/had that problem, Ezra.

For instance, in the UDP thread, there were ISTj, INTj, INFp, and I think something else being suggested for him. The ISTj - INTj divide is along the same lines of the ISFj - INFj divide, what is it that really separates them? Functionally you can see it, but you have to know what you're looking for, and it seems people have different ideas on what this is - I'd like to hear those ideas. Also, the easiest way is by quadra, but some people disagree with that method, and it'd be interesting to see why.

I like Smilingeyes' methods, and the idea of shifting along a continuum, but there are a few problems imo on how far you can stretch in any direction from your most natural position.

Can someone please point this out to me? Where is that? I have never seen it.


Diana --- what role do you prefer in relationships? Aggressor or infantile?

[Expat]

For instance, in the UDP thread, there were ISTj, INTj, INFp, and I think something else being suggested for him. The ISTj - INTj divide is along the same lines of the ISFj - INFj divide, what is it that really separates them? Functionally you can see it, but you have to know what you're looking for, and it seems people have different ideas on what this is - I'd like to hear those ideas. Also, the easiest way is by quadra, but some people disagree with that method, and it'd be interesting to see why.

I like Smilingeyes' methods, and the idea of shifting along a continuum, but there are a few problems imo on how far you can stretch in any direction from your most natural position.

Can someone please point this out to me? Where is that? I have never seen it.

Here: http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9017

Take also a look at "Smilexian Socionics" in the wiki.

[Expat]

I agree, Expat, that Quadra values have a lot to do with it, but not so much as to override everything else. So MY trouble is, I haven't seen anything remotely Se or Ni from Diana. Ever.

Well I have, but I'm not going to list it here.

you and Joy (two people that, I might add, both like Diana very much and are, or claim to be, in the quadra that the type they are trying to convince her she is belongs....not to question your objectivity or anything),

Great disclaimer, worthy of George Constanza.

[Expat]

And she does behave socially like an EII, at least as far as I've observed in the chat: somewhat reserved, not usually in the thick of conversation but obviously paying attention and contributing thoughtfully, never really attracting attention to herself but relying on the fact that people will be interested in what she says to draw people into conversation...textbook EII.

That is textbook Fi IJ.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Expat]

I am envious of people who can just talk to others without worrying about what someone else is going to think, that are completely openly human, letting all their flaws and problems and everything that is them just show with no excuses or embarrassment. I worry entirely too much about what people think, and so don't let very many, if any get a chance to really know me. I really want to be a little less stiff and contained - but it's hard. So I'm attempting to relax. I spend a lot of energy (too much) trying to be nice, trying to be perfect, containing what I think, how I feel, and I don't let much out that anyone can see. I don't want to do that forever.

That is precisely one of the manifestations of Ne PoLR in ISFjs.

...Huh? How come I can relate to this a LOT, and how come there's nothing to do with Ne in there? Please tell me there's something I'm not seeing here.

As I outlined in my reply to eunice, I think it's different. In your case is about , in Diana's case (and ISFjs generally) about . It has to do a bit with the "competitiveness" in Gamma which I mentioned to you in a private conversation if you remember.

[Slacker]

I'm kind of surprised that Gilly identifies with this so well, particularly the bolded part:

I really want to be a little less stiff and contained - but it's hard. So I'm attempting to relax. I spend a lot of energy (too much) trying to be nice, trying to be perfect, containing what I think

[FDG]

I am envious of people who can just talk to others without worrying about what someone else is going to think, that are completely openly human, letting all their flaws and problems and everything that is them just show with no excuses or embarrassment. I worry entirely too much about what people think, and so don't let very many, if any get a chance to really know me. I really want to be a little less stiff and contained - but it's hard. So I'm attempting to relax. I spend a lot of energy (too much) trying to be nice, trying to be perfect, containing what I think, how I feel, and I don't let much out that anyone can see. I don't want to do that forever.

That is precisely one of the manifestations of Ne PoLR in ISFjs.

Interesting, because I can relate completely with what Diana wrote.

I don't relate at all. I've gotten into trouble sometimes because I didn't care enough what other people thought of me.

[Expat]

I think there may be a confusion.

To clarify:

focus ---> "I want people to like me, to respond to me positively, not to be hostile emotionally".
PoLR in ISFjs ---> "I don't care if people like me or not, if I don't like them; I do get concerned about people judging or evaluating my abilities, especially in areas where I am insecure".

focus ---> doesn't mind if others evaluate their abilities or potential etc, if the person is sure of their positive emotional attitude.
PoLR in ISFjs ---> even if, or especially if, they are sure of the positive connection with someone, they get uncomfortable with being evaluated in areas they are insecure in terms of their potential skills".

[Exodus]

I think Gilligan has given very good arguments for INFj. In the video Diana struck me as INFj and in no way ISFj-Fi. She has the same kind of tendency to ramble and go off on tangents in her posts as other Ne ego types (and especially Delta NFs).

If I had no information on Diana except for VI, my first guess would also be INFj. But the thing is, I have far more information on her than VI. I do not agree with VI overruling other evidence. I have also met other women who I thought VIed as INFj but, after getting to know them better, turned out to be ISFj to my satisfaction. Meged's description of the ISFj-Fi also suggests someone like an INFj. But anyway, for those who think that VI should be given so much weight between INFj-Fi and ISFj-Fi, I think we'll have to disagree.

Who said anything about VI "overruling" other evidence? Contrary to what you may think, I do read Diana's posts, and like Gilligan I don't see any evidence of Se. If "having strongly held opinions" is the main argument for Se, I'm not at all convinced.

I am envious of people who can just talk to others without worrying about what someone else is going to think, that are completely openly human, letting all their flaws and problems and everything that is them just show with no excuses or embarrassment. I worry entirely too much about what people think, and so don't let very many, if any get a chance to really know me. I really want to be a little less stiff and contained - but it's hard. So I'm attempting to relax. I spend a lot of energy (too much) trying to be nice, trying to be perfect, containing what I think, how I feel, and I don't let much out that anyone can see. I don't want to do that forever.

That is precisely one of the manifestations of Ne PoLR in ISFjs.

That could be explained simply by IJ temperament. And "trying to be nice, trying to be perfect" is more Ne than Se.

As much as I hate to be an ass, I'm going to have to butt in here.

People don't see Se because you're not confrontational. But there's another way Se shows up. When we get into arguments about things like abortion, you are very solid and won't budge and make it very clear that you are absolutely sure you are right and there is no validity to my point of view. That is also Se.

This is not Se at all. What does this have to do with sensing? Sure, if you were in her face and she was in yours, and you guys were getting physical about some intellectual discussion, then Se would come into play...but when there are miles of computer cable seperating, no Se.

I totally disagree with Transigent here. I think this is very much , and the "miles of computer cable separating" make little difference. It might in the case of a little kid "challenging" a bigger one online rather than in person, but the point is, that would still be valueing and evaluating . A PoLR person would not even want to do that in principle, whether live or online.

is about confrontation, because it's about two people wanting to change the static physical state each in their own favor, which in its most primitive form is about two people actually fighting each other. Verbal confrontation is but an extension of that, and from the point of view of people's motivations, the physical presence (as opposed to online presence) makes very little difference imo. Psychologically and socionically, it's all the same.

When has Diana ever gotten confrontational in that way?

[Elro]

And "trying to be nice, trying to be perfect" is more Ne than Se.

Why?

[Slacker]

I certainly don't try to be perfect. Nice might be .

Mr. Hotel Ambush, I feel like you are intentionally misunderstanding my point. As I've said a few times, but you have either missed or intentionally passed by, it isn't about having a strong opinion - it's about strongly presenting an opinion - not wanting to show that you might waver or that your opinion could be changed. An INFj would present an opinion as if it could be changed even if it couldn't, and an ISFj would present an opinion as if it couldn't be changed even if it could.

[Exodus]

And "trying to be nice, trying to be perfect" is more Ne than Se.

Why?

It's really Fi+Ne. Simplistically: Se is about confrontation, and making people uncomfortable if you have to; Fi is about understanding interpersonal boundaries and rules. That means ESTps are the type least likely to worry about being "nice", and INFjs the most because of Se PoLR and Fi leading. "Trying to be perfect" is Ganin's way of phrasing the Ne-creative "conscious agenda", which I think is quite accurate.

[Exodus]

I certainly don't try to be perfect. Nice might be .

Agreed.

Mr. Hotel Ambush, I feel like you are intentionally misunderstanding my point. As I've said a few times, but you have either missed or intentionally passed by, it isn't about having a strong opinion - it's about strongly presenting an opinion - not wanting to show that you might waver or that your opinion could be changed. An INFj would present an opinion as if it could be changed even if it couldn't, and an ISFj would present an opinion as if it couldn't be changed even if it could.

I know what you mean, and I don't see Diana as doing the latter any more than, say, Minde does. And of course the former is not a universal characteristic of Ne.


edit: btw, you can just call me "The"