Duality and PoLR

[redbaron]

Well... Listen, you ever need some Se you just give me your exact geographical coordinates and I will be in and around your pants faster than Apollo Ohno combined with Justin Gatlin combined with a G-5 Air craft.

Just sayin...

I'm flattered. I feel like I should mention the fact that my avatar is a photo of me in like 1989. (I don't look terribly different now, but I'm probably old enough to be your mom)

[JWC3]

I'm flattered. I feel like I should mention the fact that my avatar is a photo of me in like 1989. (I don't look terribly different now, but I'm probably old enough to be your mom)

Listen... I didn't ask how old you were. Nor did I ask what you looked like. What I said was if you need some Se you give me a ring. Got it? Good.

But for the record, and if indeed you only look like an older version of your self, I would have to say that you are most probably attractive. (I say most probably because it really is a guess if that is an old picture)

EDIT: *chuckles* I just realized something when i re-read your post. I was born in 1989! LOL

[Shazaam]

Well according to the theory, you don't love or hate your dual's polr -- you pretty much ignore it and are just totally oblivious to it. Like what makes you anxious, for your dual it's just a non-issue. It's not that they're confident or like to do it. It's just.... like, whatever. Ya know? This attitude innately covers up your weaknesses the best.

[Creepy-male]

My understanding is that you do your dual's PoLR for them.

Indifference comes in through the Role, which your dual simultaneously ignores and helps you get out of by drawing out your base.

Additionally, in performing your dual's PoLR for them, you'll be acting through your Base function, feeding their DS.

I think there are a bunch of other feedback loops between the various complementary elements in any given dyad that link into other feedback loops etc, which is why duality is so rich and satisfying.

[redbaron]

Listen... I didn't ask how old you were. Nor did I ask what you looked like. What I said was if you need some Se you give me a ring. Got it? Good.

But for the record, and if indeed you only look like an older version of your self, I would have to say that you are most probably attractive. (I say most probably because it really is a guess if that is an old picture)

well it's a good guess. :tongue:

EDIT: *chuckles* I just realized something when i re-read your post. I was born in 1989! LOL

it was a great year... one of the best summers of my life.

and... I always need Se.

[JWC3]

well it's a good guess. :tongue:

it was a great year... one of the best summers of my life.

Mine too!

and... I always need Se.

[Wynch]

lol, this entire interaction has been hilarious. Also, I think you just became a MILF for Joe, redbaron

[Expat]

Well according to the theory, you don't love or hate your dual's polr -- you pretty much ignore it and are just totally oblivious to it. Like what makes you anxious, for your dual it's just a non-issue. It's not that they're confident or like to do it. It's just.... like, whatever. Ya know? This attitude innately covers up your weaknesses the best.

I think that's a good way of putting it.

[mu4]

My understanding is that you do your dual's PoLR for them.

Indifference comes in through the Role, which your dual simultaneously ignores and helps you get out of by drawing out your base.

Additionally, in performing your dual's PoLR for them, you'll be acting through your Base function, feeding their DS.

I think there are a bunch of other feedback loops between the various complementary elements in any given dyad that link into other feedback loops etc, which is why duality is so rich and satisfying.

I don't think it's that nice and clean. Your dual is in a feedback loop in all the elements with you. Your dual gives you confidence within your super-ego as well as help cover up any holes. The super ego is a source of a great deal of processing in people especially when they've been hurt or made some mistakes. The super-ego is still in the mental ring, which is a area of conscious control. People will want to have control here regardless of their proficiency.

The area of the super ego is a place of perfectionism, you don't want to make any mistakes here because it is painful psychologically. So many people will try to do whatever they can to avoid this pain, your dual doesn't care to hurt you here and will instead offer the super-id information as primary evaluation.

Nevertheless, anything can be misunderstood and taken the wrong way by people who are undeveloped, duality has a reinforcing factor in long term interaction, but until that bond is created, it's as weak as any other relationship.

[Creepy-]

Well according to the theory, you don't love or hate your dual's polr -- you pretty much ignore it and are just totally oblivious to it. Like what makes you anxious, for your dual it's just a non-issue. It's not that they're confident or like to do it. It's just.... like, whatever. Ya know? This attitude innately covers up your weaknesses the best.

I understand what you're saying about not seeing about your dual's PoLR as something major; you probably do ignore it in a practical sense, but you do see it. I notice XLIs' Fe-PoLR, and at least a couple of the ILIs here say they notice XEEs' Ti-PoLR [even if it is unintentionally funny to them ;p].

I would say that you do naturally pick up on your dual's PoLR, but instead of seeing it as a weakness you find it endearing.

[Creepy-male]

I would say that you do naturally pick up on your dual's PoLR, but instead of seeing it as a weakness you find it endearing.

This.

I'm actually having trouble linking any common traits between EIIs and LIIs though. I think one of the EIIs I'm thinking of is an ESI, though. In that case, I'd say that XIIs tend to be pliable to "Jump up, and let's go!" which is always fun.

[Azeroffs]

I agree. I think it's naive to believe that we won't see our dual's polr especially when it is a function that is strongly understood. It makes sense to me that we would see their polr ad find it endearing. Just as an example I could see Ne-Polr endearing because of their drive towards getting what they want without considering what could go wrong. I could really bond with this person because I can easily see what could go wrong and use Ni to show them something they could do to avoid the possible problems.

[Beautiful sky]

How does your dual use their PoLR to help you?

[Creepy-pokeball]

I stick my drinks in their polr when it is really hot out.

[Beautiful sky]

I stick my drinks in their polr when it is really hot out.

Silly!!!

[Codie]

Whats this? everyone knows your dual helps you via the 8th function not the POLR.... how can someone utilize their "mental achillies heel" to help someone who is supposedly able and effective when using it anyway.. ??

[Creepy-male]

How does your dual use their PoLR to help you?

Here's my shot at an explanation.

Functions have Introverted and Extroverted versions... say Thinking has Ti and Te. These are two versions of the same thing essentially. C major and C minor or whatever. In essence thinking is thinking but its the variance in direction -- inside > out versus outside > in. The quality of the function is the same but the method of perception from the individual is different.

A PoLR is a weak function but its also an unvalued one. The Hidden Agenda which is part of your dual's ego block, is also weak, but its valued. So this is what is positively exchanged in duality. You are receiving stimulation to your hidden agenda but through your duals ego and vice versa. This strengthens the quality of that function without having to go through the stress of PoLR hits, over time the PoLR function will strength as well.

Thus your duals PoLR helps you by allowing you the ability to give them much needed help from which they grow, while feeling like in return you are receiving something back, which feeds the process, and drives a kind of circular loop of reinforcement.

The only think I dislike about this concept though is that it seems like free energy -- I think at a certain point the cycle will max out, will approach an asymptote, like a fully charged capacitor. This asymptote itself though is in the process of moving up and is based around the sum of all functions -- one's total power of personality and self understanding. However once a person is fully charged, this allows them more energy to progress forward with personal development. Thus duality is a relationship which drives personal advancement, and thus feels intuitively good.

A conflictor by contrast -- they hold you back from advancement, by increasing stress through excitation of the PoLR, however I think its critical to implement some use of the weak/unvalued functions to progress as an individual -- so utilization of these functions are vital at some level, to have a balanced, stable, and well rounded persona. However too much excitation of these functions can lock a person up and stagnate both individuals -- hence its wise in my opinion to not fully shun conflictors but instead keep interaction with them at a relaxed pace, and maintain large distance and respect psychologically.

Some of this is mainstream socionics, some of this is my own pet theory and opinion -- just so I'm clear with that to begin with.

[Beautiful sky]

Whats this? everyone knows your dual helps you via the 8th function not the POLR.... how can someone utilize their "mental achillies heel" to help someone who is supposedly able and effective when using it anyway.. ??

Try to interpret it conceptually.

[Nowisthetime]

How does your dual use their PoLR to help you?

ILEs are sensitive to Fi stuff, they often bring up Fi information, moral questions etc. I usually don't do it myself. It's interesting and refreshing, and it helps me to awareness of these things, and it's not too much of it either.

[Beautiful sky]

ILEs are sensitive to Fi stuff, they often bring up Fi information, moral questions etc. I usually don't do it myself. It's interesting and refreshing, and it helps me to awareness of these things, and it's not too much of it either.

Yeah, pretty much on the money. I mobilize resources to achieve a given objective in unplanned and uncertain situations, or just when situations arise that weren't foreseen by Matt, using my Se PoLR, which Matt isn't good at; he uses his Ni PoLR in a positive way too by helping me prioritize my tasks and make timing issues more important to me hence making sure that I get things done by a certain time; if it we're not for his PoLR function and being concerned or as you said bringing things up related to PoLR, which sometimes causes conflict relations to attract each other, I would be more distracted from tasks, more in my introverted Fi world, more unconcerned about things I have to get done by a certain date; I think duals want to use their PoLR function and they do to not only help each other but to get their dual to help them in return; it kind of acts like an activating function, in some ways. Matt says "I have to be here at 3pm; I have an appointment here at 4pm, etc" he's the one who brings these things up; but then he's the one who worries about what will happen at these events;

I'll add more and give a better example when I observe our dynamics.

[DirectorAbbie]

How does your dual use their PoLR to help you?

Today I got tired from too much Fe/Ti (socializing via tabletop roleplay) and was trying to get a game to work just like it had on a different computer. It didn't make sense, and I was short-tempered with Brilliand when I demanded his help. He didn't seem to notice that my voice was raised and I was impolite, which is the best way to react as yelling back or calling me out on it will just make me thrash out. Can I attribute that to Se-PoLR?

[Red Villain]

I'm pretty sure they help your PoLR by not using it.

[Galen]

How pointlessly abstract and obvious of an answer are you expecting?

[Creepy-male]

I think if it's a leaky capacitor it makes sense. PoLR is a craphouse 1D function so the leakiness can come from encountering new PoLR-y situations without outside assistance from someone who is strong in and values your HA. Also not having assistance in stepping around PoLR stuff for a longer period can lead to "unlearning".

Interesting, that's definitely not something I had considered. I had just assumed it was the natural direction to learn more over time -- I had never considered the possibility of unlearning over time, or becoming worse at something.

Do you think that the ego function also "leaks"... and further if think the ego function grows instead of leaks, then what is the fundamental difference in the ego function and PoLR that leads to this distinction. I'm looking for a real explanation as well, not one based in conformity to a theory.

[Beautiful sky]

HLD, you are correct too; the PoLR is like the gateway to unlocking or accessing the dual's subconscious.

[Beautiful sky]

Conscious incompetence is dual-seeking because it means that you don't know how to do something and know that you don't know how to do it. You can only seek someone to do the things you can't if you know what the things that you can't do are.

[Aquagraph]

My descriptions are not just accurate but usually without an emotional charge/bias. I think most SEIs like that they get to decide their own stance in the privacy of their head instead of hearing how I already figured how they should feel about it. I also dislike value-based debates. I don't care when a libertarian talks about freedom or a republican president talks about family values. I want to maximize happiness and only things I see are potential tools.

I'm not saying this is how Fi PoLR always works but this is how it manifests in me when I'm serene. And I'm very calm in the cold intellectual tranquility inside my head.

[Slacker]

OK so how I see it is that there are things you are uncomfortable doing and would rather not do, and your dual doesn't mind doing them (your PoLR is your dual's demonstrative function after all) but doesn't value them and therefore doesn't care that you don't do it. So you each have your little jobs to do. You cheer everyone up, he fills out all the paperwork. You never expect him to cheer people up, and he doesn't care if you hate answering questions on forms. (I don't want to argue whether it's Ti or not. I just hate those forms. I always overthink them. "Do they mean the grade she was in last year, or the grade she'll be in this fall?")

[Beautiful sky]

OK so how I see it is that there are things you are uncomfortable doing and would rather not do, and your dual doesn't mind doing them (your PoLR is your dual's demonstrative function after all) but doesn't value them and therefore doesn't care that you don't do it. So you each have your little jobs to do. You cheer everyone up, he fills out all the paperwork. You never expect him to cheer people up, and he doesn't care if you hate answering questions on forms. (I don't want to argue whether it's Ti or not. I just hate those forms. I always overthink them. "Do they mean the grade she was in last year, or the grade she'll be in this fall?")

yes

[Codie]

Try to interpret it conceptually.

Maybe you develop your 8th function in response to seeing your dual struggle with their 4th...i read it's important to develop the 8th as it plays a 'huge part' in our worldview. The ego is driven by the id which is childish part of the psyche...So maybe your dual incentivates you to change your viewpoint by facing unresolved aspects of your subconscious?

[mu4]

I can't really say much except for my experiences with my own functions. I would suggest that if unlearning has to do with something, it would be the 3rd dimension which allows situational application and flexibility.

Another possible rationalisation for the difference is that in my opinion, dimensionality of functions (or at least the mental track functions 1-4) are very closely correlated to the four stages of competence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_st...f_competence):


PoLR is unconscious incompetence, so any learning is done without a wider context of the ultimate goal and quickly forgotten, and difficult to apply in any new situations. Role is conscious incompetence, and learning can be somewhat fitted to a wider context, although inadequacies are strongly felt. My favourite thing about this parallel is that it fits very nicely with my experience of base being harder to describe than creative function, despite being stronger, which fits well with unconscious/conscious competence.

Also in my experience, I can't tell if my Ni has gotten better over time - I assume it has, but I can't really say - but I can confidently say my use of Fe has become more refined. So again the conscious/unconscious thing stands in the way of me giving you a straighter answer.

I like this octo, I've thought similar ideas with these cognitive divisions but this is very good observation. It also fits in with inert/contact functions in the mental functions, 14 = inert(unconscious) in mental ring and contact(conscious) in mental ring. Corresponding it's inverted in the vital ring. 58=contact in vital ring and 67=inert in vital ring.

I think you can also use knowing vs competence, as a terminology

So contact functions are based on areas of conscious knowing/ignorance, and unconscious action in relation to the outside world while inert functions are area of unconscious knowledge/ignorance while being area of conscious action.

Also it goes with my perspective that the DS function is not something you are conscious of while you seek it. And the PoLR is not a function you're conscious of while avoiding it. I think I know something is pleasurable or painful but it's simply a experience rather a intellectual understanding. We maybe clear that somethings may be experienced but there is a level of confusion and mystery that will remain of that experience. I would say that would characterize the 1d functions.

2d functions are understood as norms and adaptations so one can at least understand the norms and social roles of these functions, it is not so much as mysterious as tiring.

[Beautiful sky]

What I'm saying is that duals actually use their own PoLR to help their duals. I know that Se info creeps into my brain slowly but what I have inside of me in terms of Se I can use it to help my Se subconscious dual deal with some Se stuff and in turn, he can use Se demonstrative to do the Se things I don't want to do.