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Thread: Do Deltas withdraw from emotionally expressive people?

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    Default Do Deltas withdraw from emotionally expressive people?

    Hi all

    I would really appreciate any insights that you might have.

    In a group atmosphere, do Deltas tend to withdraw slightly if they view that the other members of the group are being too emotional/expressive/ungenuine? Do they associate massive emotions with being shallow, and/or respond negatively to 'too much' emotion?

    Many thanks in advance

    Kindly,
    Five/Tanzhe

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    You are probably experiencing a PoLR.

    I'm ok with massive emotions, just that I would be more of an observer than participant. I only get frustrated when others in the group talk about fun and enjoyment and meaningless stuff. And it's easy for others to know that I'm displeased 'cos I will always have this "wtf?" look on my face. Example:

    During a class outing
    ESTp classmate: Dang! You guys can't believe what a bad day I have today.
    Everyone
    ESTp: I saw this white python on an online auction the other day and I decided to put in $8000 for it. I was confident that I will definitely get it 'cos all the other bidders couldn't bid past this amount, until another guy came in the last minute and dump in $10000. Oh man! Can you believe that? He won me by just two thousand freaking dollars?!
    Me: (thought: I wish you could have gotten the python so that it can slither towards you at night and suffocate you and let you experience a slow and painful death.)

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    Default Re: Is this typical Delta behaviour?

    Quote Originally Posted by Five
    Hi all

    I would really appreciate any insights that you might have.

    In a group atmosphere, do Deltas tend to withdraw slightly if they view that the other members of the group are being too emotional/expressive/ungenuine? Do they associate massive emotions with being shallow, and/or respond negatively to 'too much' emotion?

    Many thanks in advance

    Kindly,
    i come from a family of delta's so maybe i can comment. delta is basically anti-beta. deltas like small groups of people, relationally-based communication at a closer psychological distance, they follow the rules of etiquette strictly, and go for refinement.

    loud emotional displays don't fit into this nor do large group activities. i think they kind of intimidate or offend a lot of delta types. so you might see the kind of reaction you are describing five.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    You are probably experiencing a PoLR.

    I'm ok with massive emotions, just that I would be more of an observer than participant. I only get frustrated when others in the group talk about fun and enjoyment and meaningless stuff. And it's easy for others to know that I'm displeased 'cos I will always have this "wtf?" look on my face. Example:

    During a class outing
    ESTp classmate: Dang! You guys can't believe what a bad day I have today.
    Everyone
    ESTp: I saw this white python on an online auction the other day and I decided to put in $8000 for it. I was confident that I will definitely get it 'cos all the other bidders couldn't bid past this amount, until another guy came in the last minute and dump in $10000. Oh man! Can you believe that? He won me by just two thousand freaking dollars?!
    Me: (thought: I wish you could have gotten the python so that it can slither towards you at night and suffocate you and let you experience a slow and painful death.)
    huh. that interaction would not affect me that way at all.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    I got a python you can....

    errr nevermind... forgot this was Delta

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    edited.

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    Default Re: Is this typical Delta behaviour?

    Quote Originally Posted by Five
    Hi all

    I would really appreciate any insights that you might have.

    In a group atmosphere, do Deltas tend to withdraw slightly if they view that the other members of the group are being too emotional/expressive/ungenuine? Do they associate massive emotions with being shallow, and/or respond negatively to 'too much' emotion?

    Many thanks in advance

    Kindly,
    Yeah probablly. I could probablly handle a full blown Fe atmosphere for a little while but its a pretty tiring. I do quite enjoy seeing how the other side works sometimes. Too much emotion i cant see as being a problem. Deltas aren't all stuck up like some people seem to think. I doubt anyone could say anything to shock me. I can even take people giving fat people / handicapped etc people shit as long as its not to their face. I think if someone doesn't have Fi you cant force it on them.

    The only thing i wont take is rudeness/meanness to myself/a friend/someone who could be hurt by it.
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    I don't think it is necessarily Fe polr. I'm like that. If that's Fe polr, I have an Fe polr. hmm.

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    It's Fi>Fe preference
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    Default Re: Is this typical Delta behaviour?

    Quote Originally Posted by Five
    In a group atmosphere, do Deltas tend to withdraw slightly if they view that the other members of the group are being too emotional/expressive/ungenuine? Do they associate massive emotions with being shallow, and/or respond negatively to 'too much' emotion?
    YES! At least I do. (And I think it would apply to most deltas. As Slacker Mom said, it's an Fi > Fe preference.)
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    Cool Many thanks to you all.

    Kindly,
    Five/Tanzhe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Five
    In a group atmosphere, do Deltas tend to withdraw slightly if they view that the other members of the group are being too emotional/expressive/ungenuine? Do they associate massive emotions with being shallow, and/or respond negatively to 'too much' emotion?
    I would agree with this. In a group, deltas also often withdraw from the whole group and engage in splintered off conversation with a few people for a while, before re-engaging back with the group as a whole.
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    I have very deepseated emotions but it's hard for me to express them in the moment. And can be outwardly unexpressive. Being around people who constantly have their heart on their sleeve can be draining. Or it is a lot to take in for me. I want to understand people, and can empathize but when it gets to a point where people are dumping everything out, it gets to a point where I just sit there quietly and don't know what to say. In group settings, I do naturally read into the emotional atmosphere, and like to have my place in the group.

    If it gets to a point where people are expecting me to share more than I am comfortable with, that is when I begin to withdraw. Or I begin to give shorter, generic answers and get significantly quieter. Especially when they try to pry emotions out of me before I am ready to talk about them. When I process them, I talk about them but in the moment, it's a struggle for me.
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    The whole thing about Deltas having problems with emotionally expressice people is not so much the emotional expression, but the underlying intentions with those emotional expressions. Especially in the case of Beta, such expressions are considered by Deltas as boundary crossing behavior, and a forebode of more bad things to come. Deltas view Betas as people who act entitled in a way that puts Deltas at a disadvantage, and thus have the tendecy to withdraw from emotionally expressive people. Long story short: to Deltas, emotional expressiveness is a sign a bad things ahead, especially in a group setting.

    This also explains why Deltas have less problems with the Fe from Alphas: Alphas emotional expression is not experienced as dangerous by Deltas.
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    Fe emotional style annoyes Te types. Fi types accept that easier
    Fi ego are also emotional people, but have and express more other kind of emotions
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    Fe emotional style annoyes Te types. Fi types accept that easier
    Fi ego are also emotional people, but have and express more other kind of emotions
    Yeah deeeper more complex ones like compassion, piety, sublime adulation, the deepest deepest deepest human truthsssssssssss. Subterrainium level deep. It can't get any more subtle its basically not even there, but you can know its pretty special.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    Yeah deeeper more complex ones
    the main difference is
    Fe - objective evaluation. it's good/bad
    Fi - personal evaluation. I like/dislike

    Fi - compassion in the sense of understanding of personal sympathies and wishes
    Fe - has an analogue in the sense of understanding of general emotional state (joy, sadness)
    Fe type may try to cheer up you by a joke, for example. Where Fi type will come to smile you softly to show you have a friend
    From point of Te types what do Fe is not a real compassion to you as a human - Fe alike want to improve a sad dude to more inspired dude, so he'd had more energy to work together. It's other kind of compassion as Fe type checks your emotions too and tries to make you happier as... an object.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    I think Deltas withdraw from emotionally expressive people if they feel like the expression of other people's emotions impedes their ability to be aware of their own. Beta emotionality often feels way too over the top for me, even overbearing and painfully intrusive. It feels like it carries with it a sense of self-righteous justification that isn't allowed to be questioned. That last part is especially true for Betas who have lived in a uniform environment and haven't had to adjust to others.

    In other words, Beta emotionality can feel like an imposition.

    Betas themselves are prone to believing that those who don't support the emotional environment and those who don't openly and overtly show their will are somehow immoral or possessed of malicious intent. They are seen as not contributing as they should. In Beta, you have to approach, shake hands, kowtow, and make nice to be acceptable. They realize it's all a game, but they get their feelings rather deeply hurt if you don't play. The "manly show of force" is how Betas tell if someone else is trustworthy, because healthy Se can mean positive Ni, etc.

    It's always odd to me how Betas can express positive emotionality and not actually be in agreement with someone else. Strong valued Fe lets you kiss a lot of ass and make people think you like them. Lol!
    Last edited by Aramas; 06-19-2019 at 05:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    Yeah deeeper more complex ones like compassion, piety, sublime adulation, the deepest deepest deepest human truthsssssssssss. Subterrainium level deep. It can't get any more subtle its basically not even there, but you can know its pretty special.
    Lol, i thought you were being sarcastic? Were you? I honestly hope so. It is these sort of vague ideas about the depth and quality of expression that confuses matters and frankly kept me from self-typing EII for a long time. It has to do with the various standards and definitions we use when we speak of 'depth' and 'nuance' and the like. I think my standards are rather stricter than other people's so when I speak / hear of these things, things like 'depth', I will immediately think that by depth it is meant something tremendously deep, which cannot be brought to the surface with words, or some such, whereas the next person over might think and speak of depth as something simply deeper than just saying 'bless you!' to someone when they sneeze!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    Lol, i thought you were being sarcastic? Were you? I honestly hope so. It is these sort of vague ideas about the depth and quality of expression that confuses matters and frankly kept me from self-typing EII for a long time. It has to do with the various standards and definitions we use when we speak of 'depth' and 'nuance' and the like. I think my standards are rather stricter than other people's so when I speak / hear of these things, things like 'depth', I will immediately think that by depth it is meant something tremendously deep, which cannot be brought to the surface with words, or some such, whereas the next person over might think and speak of depth as something simply deeper than just saying 'bless you!' to someone when they sneeze!
    I was : p

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    The whole thing about Deltas having problems with emotionally expressice people is not so much the emotional expression, but the underlying intentions with those emotional expressions. Especially in the case of Beta, such expressions are considered by Deltas as boundary crossing behavior, and a forebode of more bad things to come. Deltas view Betas as people who act entitled in a way that puts Deltas at a disadvantage, and thus have the tendecy to withdraw from emotionally expressive people. Long story short: to Deltas, emotional expressiveness is a sign a bad things ahead, especially in a group setting.

    This also explains why Deltas have less problems with the Fe from Alphas: Alphas emotional expression is not experienced as dangerous by Deltas.
    Imo Fe is very plastic and will mold itself exactly to a person or situation in a way that must feel expressively invasive to someone who isn’t receptive to Fe.

    By the same token, Delta Fi has often felt invasive to me because of evaluations over how I or others should or shouldn’t be, or a desire to get into my thoughts, which are entirely off-limits.

    I care about what people do, in a way, but I don’t care how they arrange or manage their interior lives.
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden View Post
    Imo Fe is very plastic and will mold itself exactly to a person or situation in a way that must feel expressively invasive to someone who isn’t receptive to Fe.

    By the same token, Delta Fi has often felt invasive to me because of evaluations over how I or others should or shouldn’t be, or a desire to get into my thoughts, which are entirely off-limits.

    I care about what people do, in a way, but I don’t care how they arrange or manage their interior lives.
    Deltas typically have a mixed view of sharing thoughts. That's the nature of the extroverted elements. Deltas can't really hold back their thoughts in the same way that Betas can. Betas also have this odd thing where they will not express their thoughts 99% of the time, and that 1% moment when they do is catastrophic-level honesty. It's those rare moments when Fe breaks and T is allowed full expression.

    Deltas do the same with their feelings. Betas are always expressing their feelings in some way. Because their feelings aren't quite as intrinsic to their sense of identity, that part of them is much more malleable in social situations. The rare moments in which Deltas express how they really feel are a sight to behold. Conversely, they are always sharing their thoughts, which are adaptive to social situations at least to some degree. Betas don't like that, though, lol. Betas would prefer to share feels and keep thoughts to themselves. Until they get really close to you and decide that they want to get to know you very well. Then they switch on the Ti. In rare cases, Ti is expressed socially to put someone "back in line" when they've done something the Betas see as a critical error. This active state of Ti is meant to restore or recreate Fe.

    Beta Ti when it's expressed often feels invasive to me too tbh. It's like, rather than telling you what to be, Betas want to tell you what you should think. I think this is because Betas find their thoughts more internally adjustable, which allows them to create whatever emotionality is necessary in a social situation. Betas can, in other words, simulate necessary thoughts to create certain feelings, even if they don't actually think them on their own. They view this behavior as giving respectful consideration to someone else's perspective, but the mechanics of what they are doing is actually beyond the ability of most Deltas and contrary to the healthy function of their psyches.

    Deltas have a similar ability. They can actually alter their character in micro ways that gives them the power to adapt their behavior in social situations. Meanwhile, their internal character is somehow preserved in spite of the adaptation. Betas can't really adapt their own feelings or character in the same way. They require the external force of Fe to regulate their feelings. (Feelings and character are related.)

    Betas, of course, just as Deltas typically view Beta Fe and Ti as a form of prevarication, see Delta Fi and Te the same way. They don't see Deltas as being honest about how they feel, because rather than allowing others to regulate their feelings for them, Deltas do that on their own. Meanwhile, Fi feels invasive to Betas because the subtle adaptation of Fi out of consideration for the feelings of others ends up creating a powerful yin effect that alters the feelings of Betas "from the inside." In other words, Fi creates a resonance of feeling, rather than a resonance of thought. The odd sensation of losing control over one's feelings, because the source of the feeling appears to be coming from within them rather than without, is destructive to a sense of identity. Betas are used to electric feeling and can do that all day. Magnetic feeling pulls at them from the inside in some really uncomfortable way, and that is seen as damaging to their identities. All the introverted elements have the capacity to create that insidious yin effect in the extroverted element of the same domain. This is why Fi feels invasive to Betas and Ti feels invasive to Deltas. Of course, the active state doesn't feel invasive in that micro insidious sort of way. The active state is obviously presented as an external influence. But then it just seems like autocratic dictatorship.

    Contrary introverted elements are thus seen as manipulative, and contrary extroverted elements as barbaric.

    The point of this post is to say that we all care about what other people do, otherwise we would never criticize them. We also all feel like we give others a necessary opportunity to have their interior lives. The problem is that we have different ideas of which aspects of our lives are to share and which to keep private. We all agree that different levels and kinds of honesty are required in different situations. We just disagree on which kinds and levels are required.

    To give a simpler explanation, it's as if....
    Deltas think you should be 50% honest with your thoughts all the time.
    Betas think you should express your thoughts obliquely 99% of the time and with total honesty 1% of the time.

    Deltas think conversely that you should only hint at what you feel most of the time, and be totally honest about your feelings only rarely. The key is the level of plasticity in each element and what degree of stimulus is required to control this plasticity. The introverted elements don't need as much of an external stimulus to adapt, and a larger one interferes with their function.
    Last edited by Aramas; 06-19-2019 at 04:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Deltas typically have a mixed view of sharing thoughts. That's the nature of the extroverted elements. Deltas can't really hold back their thoughts in the same way that Betas can. Betas also have this odd thing where they will not express their thoughts 99% of the time, and that 1% moment when they do is catastrophic-level honesty. It's those rare moments when Fe breaks and T is allowed full expression.

    Deltas do the same with their feelings. Betas are always expressing their feelings in some way. Because their feelings aren't quite as intrinsic to their sense of identity, that part of them is much more malleable in social situations. The rare moments in which Deltas express how they really feel are a sight to behold. Conversely, they are always sharing their thoughts, which are adaptive to social situations at least to some degree. Betas don't like that, though, lol. Betas would prefer to share feels and keep thoughts to themselves. Until they get really close to you and decide that they want to get to know you very well. Then they switch on the Ti. In rare cases, Ti is expressed socially to put someone "back in line" when they've done something the Betas see as a critical error. This active state of Ti is meant to restore or recreate Fe.

    Beta Ti when it's expressed often feels invasive to me too tbh. It's like, rather than telling you what to be, Betas want to tell you what you should think. I think this is because Betas find their thoughts more internally adjustable, which allows them to create whatever emotionality is necessary in a social situation. Betas can, in other words, simulate necessary thoughts to create certain feelings, even if they don't actually think them on their own. They view this behavior as giving respectful consideration to someone else's perspective, but the mechanics of what they are doing is actually beyond the ability of most Deltas and contrary to the healthy function of their psyches.

    Deltas have a similar ability. They can actually alter their character in micro ways that gives them the power to adapt their behavior in social situations. Meanwhile, their internal character is somehow preserved in spite of the adaptation. Betas can't really adapt their own feelings or character in the same way. They require the external force of Fe to regulate their feelings. (Feelings and character are related.)

    Betas, of course, just as Deltas typically view Beta Fe and Ti as a form of prevarication, see Delta Fi and Te the same way. They don't see Deltas as being honest about how they feel, because rather than allowing others to regulate their feelings for them, Deltas do that on their own. Meanwhile, Fi feels invasive to Betas because the subtle adaptation of Fi out of consideration for the feelings of others ends up creating a powerful yin effect that alters the feelings of Betas "from the inside." In other words, Fi creates a resonance of feeling, rather than a resonance of thought. The odd sensation of losing control over one's feelings, because the source of the feeling appears to be coming from within them rather than without, is destructive to a sense of identity. Betas are used to electric feeling and can do that all day. Magnetic feeling pulls at them from the inside in some really uncomfortable way, and that is seen as damaging to their identities. All the introverted elements have the capacity to create that insidious yin effect in the extroverted element of the same domain. This is why Fi feels invasive to Betas and Ti feels invasive to Deltas. Of course, the active state doesn't feel invasive in that micro insidious sort of way. The active state is obviously presented as an external influence. But then it just seems like autocratic dictatorship.

    Contrary introverted elements are thus seen as manipulative, and contrary extroverted elements as barbaric.


    Can you factor Gamma Quadra into this dynamic and speak to that, if possible, pretty please?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Deltas typically have a mixed view of sharing thoughts. That's the nature of the extroverted elements. Deltas can't really hold back their thoughts in the same way that Betas can. Betas also have this odd thing where they will not express their thoughts 99% of the time, and that 1% moment when they do is catastrophic-level honesty. It's those rare moments when Fe breaks and T is allowed full expression.

    Deltas do the same with their feelings. Betas are always expressing their feelings in some way. Because their feelings aren't quite as intrinsic to their sense of identity, that part of them is much more malleable in social situations. The rare moments in which Deltas express how they really feel are a sight to behold. Conversely, they are always sharing their thoughts, which are adaptive to social situations at least to some degree. Betas don't like that, though, lol. Betas would prefer to share feels and keep thoughts to themselves. Until they get really close to you and decide that they want to get to know you very well. Then they switch on the Ti. In rare cases, Ti is expressed socially to put someone "back in line" when they've done something the Betas see as a critical error. This active state of Ti is meant to restore or recreate Fe.

    Beta Ti when it's expressed often feels invasive to me too tbh. It's like, rather than telling you what to be, Betas want to tell you what you should think. I think this is because Betas find their thoughts more internally adjustable, which allows them to create whatever emotionality is necessary in a social situation. Betas can, in other words, simulate necessary thoughts to create certain feelings, even if they don't actually think them on their own. They view this behavior as giving respectful consideration to someone else's perspective, but the mechanics of what they are doing is actually beyond the ability of most Deltas and contrary to the healthy function of their psyches.

    Deltas have a similar ability. They can actually alter their character in micro ways that gives them the power to adapt their behavior in social situations. Meanwhile, their internal character is somehow preserved in spite of the adaptation. Betas can't really adapt their own feelings or character in the same way. They require the external force of Fe to regulate their feelings. (Feelings and character are related.)

    Betas, of course, just as Deltas typically view Beta Fe and Ti as a form of prevarication, see Delta Fi and Te the same way. They don't see Deltas as being honest about how they feel, because rather than allowing others to regulate their feelings for them, Deltas do that on their own. Meanwhile, Fi feels invasive to Betas because the subtle adaptation of Fi out of consideration for the feelings of others ends up creating a powerful yin effect that alters the feelings of Betas "from the inside." In other words, Fi creates a resonance of feeling, rather than a resonance of thought. The odd sensation of losing control over one's feelings, because the source of the feeling appears to be coming from within them rather than without, is destructive to a sense of identity. Betas are used to electric feeling and can do that all day. Magnetic feeling pulls at them from the inside in some really uncomfortable way, and that is seen as damaging to their identities. All the introverted elements have the capacity to create that insidious yin effect in the extroverted element of the same domain. This is why Fi feels invasive to Betas and Ti feels invasive to Deltas. Of course, the active state doesn't feel invasive in that micro insidious sort of way. The active state is obviously presented as an external influence. But then it just seems like autocratic dictatorship.

    Contrary introverted elements are thus seen as manipulative, and contrary extroverted elements as barbaric.

    The point of this post is to say that we all care about what other people do, otherwise we would never criticize them. We also all feel like we give others a necessary opportunity to have their interior lives. The problem is that we have different ideas of which aspects of our lives are to share and which to keep private. We all agree that different levels and kinds of honesty are required in different situations. We just disagree on which kinds and levels are required.
    I think much of this is true and is a very good amplification and expansion of what I was getting at but over the years have tired of trying to express.

    Interestingly to me, Gamma Fi doesn’t rub me so wrong, and I don’t necessarily mind what you refer to as magnetic resonance of feeling. It’s just that Gammas are less likely to misinterpret what I do and say, and Deltas will sometimes be quite sure about what I’m feeling and it is utterly, grossly incorrect. Yet when I say it’s incorrect, I am told I am wrong ... about my ... own ... feelings. And obviously things break down from there.

    What I find Beta Ti does from my perspective is it seeks weaknesses in my ability to handle something, then gives me the pieces I need in order to handle it. There’s a process of dismantling that comes with that, and I can imagine it being quite unpleasant to some people.
    Last edited by golden; 06-19-2019 at 07:03 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonzo View Post


    Can you factor Gamma Quadra into this dynamic and speak to that, if possible, pretty please?
    The difference between Delta and Gamma is the intuition and sensing axis. Deltas like NeSi and Gammas like NiSe.

    All the general rules for understanding the differences in introverted and extroverted elements from the thinking and feeling axis also apply here.

    Intuition is related to the ability to do what I call "ideation." In your mind, you can perhaps feel what a balloon feels like to touch. You might know that latex smells like. But the simple idea of a balloon that can call to mind the sensory memory of the balloons you've experienced in the past, and the ability to imagine balloons that are different from that, is related to intuition. I feel like intuition is the hardest to explain, so I'm going through all this before I talk about the differences.

    The essential difference between Ne and Ni in practice is that Ne can handle multiple chains of ideational association at the same time. So they can switch back and forth between one chain and another, carrying on essentially multiple topics simultaneously. Ni, on the other hand, is serial, like I've described before. It handles one chain of abstract associations, ideas, themes, or topics at a time.

    Ni types will view Ne types not necessarily as blunt per se, but as distracting. My ability to hold my train of thought is dependent on my intuition. Contrarily, Ni types prefer to express their ideas and worldviews and trains of thought obliquely to avoid distracting someone else. Doing so of course can have a rather strong yin effect on Ne, almost gravitationally pulling Ne into its desired direction through its subtlety, and Ne types prefer you display your train of thought and worldview up front.

    The sensing part of the axis is similar. Gammas prefer strong sensory impulses, Se, and Si has a yin effect on Se. Se introduces a sensory impulse from outside, while Si on the other hand simply alters its sensory scanning pattern to include new stimuli. Types with weak but valued Se require strong sensory impulses to be able to sense the outside world. They cannot alter their own sensory scanning patterns to include new stimuli. Si for Gammas results in the same type of weird gravitation I mentioned above. Si can determine what Se will sense because of its ability to alter sensory scanning habits. So Se types will think of Si types as sneaky, because they don't introduce the strong sensory impulse they need to tell the Se type what they're up to. Of course, to Si types, they simply see their behavior as being considerate. I'm not making a lot of body language or being too loud, so I'm being nice to you. That's what they think. Se to them is distracting. It pulls them away from the cognitive world of ideas and interferes with Deltas ability to sense their own bodies as well as the world around them. They only require subtle sensory impulses to maintain their presence in the physical world.

    So in spite of all the differences, how do you tell if someone is actually a fucked up asshole? Check and see if they can get along with people of their own quadra, accounting for major differences like religion and politics. If they can't do that, they probably have some issues.

    Intuition is typically the least recognized and least understood of areas, so I probably didn't explain that as well as could be done.

    Deltas will see Gammas as hiding their beliefs and worldviews, so they'll feel unsafe because they won't know if the "other" holds a contrary perspective. A lot of the fear of Islam in the West comes from the fact that the religion is typically held by Gammas. Gammas don't express their beliefs directly, and Deltas will antagonize them due to lacking a feeling of safety around them. You don't know what they're up to, so they could be up to anything.

    The big problem with these issues is that when people feel slighted is when they usually start to feel like dominating others. People don't care about me, so why should I care about them? Most people who are not injured care about others. They just don't know how to care about others who are different from them. Misunderstanding produces pain and malice. The feeling usually runs, "I'm not getting what I need, so I'll take what I want."
    Last edited by Aramas; 06-19-2019 at 05:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Deltas typically have a mixed view of sharing thoughts. That's the nature of the extroverted elements. Deltas can't really hold back their thoughts in the same way that Betas can. Betas also have this odd thing where they will not express their thoughts 99% of the time, and that 1% moment when they do is catastrophic-level honesty. It's those rare moments when Fe breaks and T is allowed full expression.

    Deltas do the same with their feelings. Betas are always expressing their feelings in some way. Because their feelings aren't quite as intrinsic to their sense of identity, that part of them is much more malleable in social situations. The rare moments in which Deltas express how they really feel are a sight to behold. Conversely, they are always sharing their thoughts, which are adaptive to social situations at least to some degree. Betas don't like that, though, lol. Betas would prefer to share feels and keep thoughts to themselves. Until they get really close to you and decide that they want to get to know you very well. Then they switch on the Ti. In rare cases, Ti is expressed socially to put someone "back in line" when they've done something the Betas see as a critical error. This active state of Ti is meant to restore or recreate Fe.

    Beta Ti when it's expressed often feels invasive to me too tbh. It's like, rather than telling you what to be, Betas want to tell you what you should think. I think this is because Betas find their thoughts more internally adjustable, which allows them to create whatever emotionality is necessary in a social situation. Betas can, in other words, simulate necessary thoughts to create certain feelings, even if they don't actually think them on their own. They view this behavior as giving respectful consideration to someone else's perspective, but the mechanics of what they are doing is actually beyond the ability of most Deltas and contrary to the healthy function of their psyches.

    Deltas have a similar ability. They can actually alter their character in micro ways that gives them the power to adapt their behavior in social situations. Meanwhile, their internal character is somehow preserved in spite of the adaptation. Betas can't really adapt their own feelings or character in the same way. They require the external force of Fe to regulate their feelings. (Feelings and character are related.)

    Betas, of course, just as Deltas typically view Beta Fe and Ti as a form of prevarication, see Delta Fi and Te the same way. They don't see Deltas as being honest about how they feel, because rather than allowing others to regulate their feelings for them, Deltas do that on their own. Meanwhile, Fi feels invasive to Betas because the subtle adaptation of Fi out of consideration for the feelings of others ends up creating a powerful yin effect that alters the feelings of Betas "from the inside." In other words, Fi creates a resonance of feeling, rather than a resonance of thought. The odd sensation of losing control over one's feelings, because the source of the feeling appears to be coming from within them rather than without, is destructive to a sense of identity. Betas are used to electric feeling and can do that all day. Magnetic feeling pulls at them from the inside in some really uncomfortable way, and that is seen as damaging to their identities. All the introverted elements have the capacity to create that insidious yin effect in the extroverted element of the same domain. This is why Fi feels invasive to Betas and Ti feels invasive to Deltas. Of course, the active state doesn't feel invasive in that micro insidious sort of way. The active state is obviously presented as an external influence. But then it just seems like autocratic dictatorship.

    Contrary introverted elements are thus seen as manipulative, and contrary extroverted elements as barbaric.

    The point of this post is to say that we all care about what other people do, otherwise we would never criticize them. We also all feel like we give others a necessary opportunity to have their interior lives. The problem is that we have different ideas of which aspects of our lives are to share and which to keep private. We all agree that different levels and kinds of honesty are required in different situations. We just disagree on which kinds and levels are required.

    To give a simpler explanation, it's as if....
    Deltas think you should be 50% honest with your thoughts all the time.
    Betas think you should express your thoughts obliquely 99% of the time and with total honesty 1% of the time.

    Deltas think conversely that you should only hint at what you feel most of the time, and be totally honest about your feelings only rarely. The key is the level of plasticity in each element and what degree of stimulus is required to control this plasticity. The introverted elements don't need as much of an external stimulus to adapt, and a larger one interferes with their function.
    I think this post gets at how important Ti values are to Ti-valuing ppl (or maybe just me?).

    It's a moral also and not just a tool (?), like Te, so the way Te logic changes fast feel like inconsistencies in values. There's a tussle about what kind of Ti standard is fair, at least in Alpha. I always thought it was a bit of a mistake to be looking in Fe for some equivalent of Fi, b/c Fe (at least in its creative form) is designed to adapt to the audience in order to convey a Ti idea which is more deep and static.

    Not sure if other alpha/betas feel this way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    I think this post gets at how important Ti values are to Ti-valuing ppl (or maybe just me?).

    It's a moral also and not just a tool (?), like Te, so the way Te logic changes fast feel like inconsistencies in values. There's a tussle about what kind of Ti standard is fair, at least in Alpha. I always thought it was a bit of a mistake to be looking in Fe for some equivalent of Fi, b/c Fe (at least in its creative form) is designed to adapt to the audience in order to convey a Ti idea which is more deep and static.

    Not sure if other alpha/betas feel this way.
    Yeah. I've talked about that before. Socionics values become moral values. People think that the way they are, if they've been in a supportive environment, is good.

    Some of the quadra differences are downright hilarious though. It's like reality must be pulling a joke or a prank on itself. Why? Merry quadras think they need to have talks with people to solve problems, and serious quadras think they just need to leave people alone and stop talking to them for a while. Lol!

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    I sincerely didn't understand anything : )

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    I've experienced feeling "castrated" by emotionally outspoken people, in particular by SEE, whom I tend to like and stick to, but they transform me into something I'm usually not: silent, grumpy, hyper-rational, self-aware. I see them as attractive and repulsive at the same time, their emotional tones both draw me in and push me away... to take in little doses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    I've experienced feeling "castrated" by emotionally outspoken people, in particular by SEE, whom I tend to like and stick to, but they transform me into something I'm usually not: silent, grumpy, hyper-rational, self-aware. I see them as attractive and repulsive at the same time, their emotional tones both draw me in and push me away... to take in little doses.
    I believe that everyone exhibits natural behavior that is "aimed" at a dual; behavior that is accepted by a dual. The more sympathetic a person is, the more they will respond as that dual, if at all possible.

    When I'm around an EII, I become more LSE-like. When I was chasing an IEI, I definitely became more SLE-like, because that was the behavior that was rewarded. Ultimately, though, I just "could not be who she wanted me to be." -and a tip o' the hat to Mr. Bob Dylan for that line.

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    This was a major mystery to me until I actually learned socionics. A large part of my family earlier in life was Beta and their use of Fe was 'weird' to me. I thought I must have been an introvert, because the people around me, I felt unable to interact with much.

    To this day, I don't actually have good communication with them - it is baffling how things can be interpreted in particular ways sometimes. I brought a delta NF girl to a wedding with some of my beta family and it was such a contrast to have great communication with her and to be reminded of my past, more withdrawn or avoidant self, even as an adult. I'm significantly more confident about all forms of communication now, but, people relate to your past a lot.


    For beta's specifically, they seem to have a proclivity towards responding to the immediate emotional state and context. My humor is often ne / shifting contexts, and I have a flippant attitude towards particular narratives especially if I don't agree with them or find value in them. But when there's a cluster of people who have a particular attitude about that, it can be stifling for someone who isn't that way - whether the main group is beta delta or whatever.

    You should try to see how you feel when you are receiving a consistent amount of 'positive feedback' for your interactions, and you get to explore enough to see what you really enjoy or not.

    Even though, though, I tend to get bored with certain emotional contexts and means by which to maintain excitement. When things feel shallow, and there isn't a, let's say.... delta Fi development of depth of understanding other people and their sentiments and related growth paths, then yeah, it gets boring.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Perhaps generally, but it's not always the case. SEEs can be pretty emotionally expressive in my experience, and they often seem to be appreciated and activated by IEEs. Although, in my experience, EIIs, who 1-on-1 will find themselves appreciating and relating to IEIs; their perspectives, thoughts and expressed feelings, will have a much harder time relating to them once they're in a group (especially with other Betas). That's when the real differences between IEI and EII become apparent. In fact, the EII often becomes invisible in situations like these, sticking to the background, not really having it, while many times IEI seems surprisingly extroverted, not seldom in the centre of attention. SLI behaves similarly to EII here, but they will still be a little bit more engaged, making clever, dry jokes or some such thing (love their humour).

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    Anything more than 3 people in a group gets tiresome very fast, as if I can't keep up. I find that three is the magic number here; away from the awkwardness of 2 and less than the exhausting presence of 5 or 6 people screaming "yo moma" jokes.
    (That's my experience with HS at least)

    I'm not fond of total emotional detachment in discussions and group settings but I don't really like SUPER LOUD GATHERINGS WHERE PEOPLE LAUGH AT EVERY SINGLE THING HAHA HA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post
    Anything more than 3 people in a group gets tiresome very fast, as if I can't keep up. I find that three is the magic number here; away from the awkwardness of 2 and less than the exhausting presence of 5 or 6 people screaming "yo moma" jokes.
    (That's my experience with HS at least)

    I'm not fond of total emotional detachment in discussions and group settings but I don't really like SUPER LOUD GATHERINGS WHERE PEOPLE LAUGH AT EVERY SINGLE THING HAHA HA.
    hhaha everybody isn't that SO FUNNY ???!!!?!?? hahah!


    - also, ya mamma -
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    hhaha everybody isn't that SO FUNNY ???!!!?!?? hahah!


    - also, ya mamma -
    You have to add "dick" (pula) before and after every word in a sentence. That's the beauty of the Romanian youth language.

    Family gatherings here are much worse, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden View Post
    Imo Fe is very plastic and will mold itself exactly to a person or situation in a way that must feel expressively invasive to someone who isn’t receptive to Fe.

    By the same token, Delta Fi has often felt invasive to me because of evaluations over how I or others should or shouldn’t be, or a desire to get into my thoughts, which are entirely off-limits.

    I care about what people do, in a way, but I don’t care how they arrange or manage their interior lives.
    Exactly and Fe tries to objectively define my internal feelings, which are entirely off limits. I could crack a smile, or raise and eyebrow and Fe is determining based off that how I feel and will give a blanket un-nuanced assumption of how I feel. If I crack a smile they will look at the context and say "Are you happy because....." and with Ni and Fe together they are like fully convinced they know my feelings, but completely leaving my own insight out of the equation because feelings are "objective", and they think they can know how I feel more than I do, which makes no sense to me. Smile means "happy", frown means "sad" and all the subjective nuanced reasons for the smile or frown are stripped. And my feelings are off limits because only I can know my nuance. Only the person can know what they are really feeling and the ins and outs of it, so someone trying to get in there and put names to things is like, back the hell off you don't know what's really going on. So yea, internal feelings are entirely off limits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    Exactly and Fe tries to objectively define my internal feelings, which are entirely off limits. I could crack a smile, or raise and eyebrow and Fe is determining based off that how I feel and will give a blanket un-nuanced assumption of how I feel. If I crack a smile they will look at the context and say "Are you happy because....." and with Ni and Fe together they are like fully convinced they know my feelings, but completely leaving my own insight out of the equation because feelings are "objective", and they think they can know how I feel more than I do, which makes no sense to me. Smile means "happy", frown means "sad" and all the subjective nuanced reasons for the smile or frown are stripped. And my feelings are off limits because only I can know my nuance. Only the person can know what they are really feeling and the ins and outs of it, so someone trying to get in there and put names to things is like, back the hell off you don't know what's really going on. So yea, internal feelings are entirely off limits.
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