Rick's description of EIE is more fitting to me, by the way. I see more of myself in there than I do in any of the others. I wish he'd write more of these descriptions; they're very good quality.
That's not to say I think I'm EIE though. Not enough of that character's description applies to me.
God, looking at beta quadra and their behaviour really shows me to be right in there. I can see why EIE shows up so much now!
But no. Although it looks like EIE on this forum and I can believe why you think I am, I'm not like that in real life at all.
Yes. How ironic.
No, I've changed very little since I came to this forum with the conviction that I was an ExTx. I am still certain that I'm an ExTx type, despite the warning against typing through dichotomies. I've read ENTp, ESTp, ENTj and ESTj. One thing that has changed is the way I've become more removed from ENTj. It doesn't seem like me after research into it. ESTp - perhaps a little, but there's something about it that just isn't catching on for me. With ENTp and ESTj comes the difficulty. While everything would seem to click with ENTp, would an ENTp organise his whole iTunes library with all artwork? Would an ENTp's room and desk space be well organised? Would an ENTp pay attention to his aesthetic appeal? Would an ENTp follow the kind of routine I follow (get up, check the message boards, eat lunch, [insert productive activity here], work out at end of day while watching film)? These are the things that seemingly contradict my being an ENTp. Naturally, if you took the dichotomies, you might assert this: "well, if you're an ENTp but just an organised one, then you must be ENTj!" but, apparently, that's not how it works.
What's the 10% holding you back based on?Originally Posted by dee
Based on my limited VI skills, I'd say he looks like an ENTp.
ILI (Indescribable Lovemaking Inc.)
5w4 so/sx
"IP temperament! Because today's concerns are tomorrow's indifferences!"
Lord Fnorgle's Domain - A slowly growing collection of music, poetry and literature.
Stickam music performances
He looks vaguely like a brown-eyed me.
That's already a very good reason to give very little weight to ESTj as a possible type for you.
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Good point. But I looked at Delta, their preferred humour, their sex, and - more importantly - the functions they would like to see if they could run the world, and it all fitted very well.
I take it at this point Expat that you're strongly discouraging me from ExTj types? Have you reconsidered whether you think there's any possibility that I'm ENTj?
Then I have to conclude that you're not really looking at the right things.
Take a look at the quadra descriptions here to see if it helps:
http://wikisocion.org/~wikisoci/en/i...?title=Quadras
I give my opinion based on the evidence you provide; the problem is that he evidence you provide is often contradictory.
I always think that there is "any possibility" that someone is any type. I find ENTj unlikely, based on what I've seen so far.
In order:
1. Beta
2. Alpha
3. Delta
4. Gamma
Oh shit yes, the ultimate problem. I think the main problem has been that I've tried to defend myself against what I think is wrong typing, and so I overly exaggerate (unconsciously this is) certain elements of me which I believe will aid you in typing me in the correct way. In reality, it simply fucks everything up. I wish I could start from the beginning, showing me exactly as I am with no 'how can I trust you?' crap.
Great. What did you look at? The group behavior, romance, functions, or everything?
Primarily the elements and how they perceive other quadras, because those were the parts I found most useful. I had a look at this a while ago when Elro directed me towards it. Question though: when it says 'Fe blocked with Ni' do I take that into consideration even though I'm not considering ENFj? Also, I couldn't find info on the ESTp's functions, nor the INTp - it just has ENFj and ISTj. In fact, for group behaviour, I'd change my ranking system completely:Great. What did you look at? The group behavior, romance, functions, or everything?
1. Gamma
2. Alpha
3. Delta
4. Beta
I think (and always have thought) that ESTj has the best way of being professionally. It is most preferable. But it's not particularly natural to me, and so when I act like it for a bit, I feel good, but then slip into my proper behaviour. It's like I get inspired to act in that way, because I like their discipline, their ability to plan etc. But they're a little too structured for my liking.
I've also noticed that one type from each quadra appeals. I had a look at socionics.us quadra info and that was interesting, because I found Delta to be most like me. Alpha was little me, Gamma slightly more (or less, I can't remember), and Beta was quite like me. Basically though, ENTp from Alpha (I'm drifting from), ESTp from Beta, ENTj from Gamma (I'm drifting) and ESTj from Delta. ESTp seems most likely at the moment, especially now I've thought about my friend being ISTj not INTj, and my other friend being INFp not ENFp. It somewhat more accurately describes our relationship (the whole Activation/Duality trio of ESTp-INTj-INFp idea).
It would be so much quicker and more effective for everyone on this forum to see me in person. It's a shame I don't have a video of me/video capabilities.
You miss the point. You're thinking only of the ego functions.
The 4 beta types have Fe, Ni, Se and Ti as quadra values, and all of them have "Fe blocked with Ni" and "Ti blocked with Se". I could also have written "Ni blocked with Fe" and "Se blocked with Ti". The order means nothing. We are looking at the quadra as a whole, not at individual types. So all of that applies to ENFj, ISTj, ESTp and INFp as a group.
I see. So for Alpha, Fe, Ne, Ti and Si are the values they wish to see implemented in the world over all the others - am I correct? In the same way, Beta's are Fe, Se, Ti and Ni.
I'll look at all the types extensively.
Expat my friend, something has clicked. Forgive me for previously wasting your time. I didn't read the descriptions properly or in their entirety. I have a much better basic overview of the quadras now.
My first choice, undebateable in my eyes (the one that I pretty much agreed with completely) was:
1. Gamma
I could give you the whole description and highlight the bits in bold that are me.
2. Delta
3. Beta
4. Alpha
Essentially, I believe
You are an idiot. Please stop continuing to waste our time. Thanks.
?Expat my friend, something has clicked. Forgive me for previously wasting your time. I didn't read the descriptions properly or in their entirety. I have a much better basic overview of the quadras now.
My first choice, undebateable in my eyes (the one that I pretty much agreed with completely) was:
1. Gamma
I could give you the whole description and highlight the bits in bold that are me.
2. Delta
3. Beta
4. Alpha
Essentially, I believe
Whatever the case is, it sounds like you still do not know enough about socionics to make any legitimate claims about anything at all. It seems like you need to keep working this out and processing it more.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
I am not an idiot. And stop telling me my understand of socionics is deficient in some way or other - I know this. I'm learning.
Expat directed me to a page about the quadras, and told me it might help me in finding my quadra. Well, it did. It helped me find Gamma quadra, followed by Beta, then Beta and Alpha (go to "What's MY Type" if you want to know why I chose Gamma).
? I'm not directing this at you.I didn't mean it that way.
Yes thankswell, I wrote most of those descriptions, except Delta that was written mainly by Rick. Perhaps you can at some point explain in detail (not just bold quotes) what is it that attracts you, or not, to those descriptions.
The conundrum we are all in is essentially this.
To those that are (or fancy ourselves as) knowledgeable in socionics, a lot of your natural behavior, even online, is reflective of your type preferences, very clearly. They all suggest Fe>Fi, probably Ti>Te, and I would say Se>Si. You don't seem to be confident in Te, which is what makes people question it when you say it is your base function. But then we are forced to "doubt" you etc -- that is a constant problem.
Yeah, I know. It's stupid. Seriously, Expat, if I could, I'd start over. I feel like I was swarmed with people who were deficient in their knowledge, and they were firing types at me which a) I didn't like and b) didn't see in myself - without decent explanation as to why they chose that. I know I've done it before on EIDB - someone has given a description and I've just said "4w5" or "6w7", and only now, when people throw a possible type at me do I know how it feels. You basically don't have a fucking clue what's going on. So the contradictions begin when I defend myself. I'm also trying to show that I'm not a type by paradoxically emphasising traits that I associate not with Fe, and then they turn out to be Fe or something. So when I say "I'm not Fe" it means "I've read about Fe, and I've also read about all the others, and that is what I'm least". Really, I'm trying to learn about my type, and the only way I can do this is through explanations from sights like socionics.us, the16types.info and socionics.org. What I say on this forum is simply what I've interpreted or taken from the descriptions of various functions, type models, intertype relationships and type descriptions. And, too often, people dub my understanding as incomplete or unequivocally incorrect.
I'll post my full understanding of the quadras in my own words now.
1. Gamma
What I find so appealing about this quadra is the way they like to talk about principles, theories and ideas, but only if they're based on factual information. For example, I'd be happy to talk about theoretical physics, but only because its very foundations are based on facts. They are realistic and down-to-earth in what they discuss, while still maintaining an imagination. They seem balanced in this way, and I relate to this. They think in the long term, and that's exactly what I do regarding my career - I think about how I want my life to go, and then I want to implement these plans. For example, I'm thinking "okay, I'm 17. I want to go to uni and do philosophy for 3 years, then a 1 year law conversion, and then once I've got a law degree, look into both politics and law, and decide which is more suited to my personality, and then go into it, and work hard for the next half a century, before retiring". Gammas seem balanced between present and future. I don't like thinking unrealistically, but at the same time, if I have a sense of idealism, I'll normally keep it achievable, otherwise I'm just wasting my time daydreaming (which, I have to admit, I sometimes do, but only in romantic terms of looking at all the epochs in time (almost nostalgically, which is odd, because I was never there), and thinking about how we've changed so much, and thinking to myself "it would be amazing to get a better understanding of every epoch").
I also like to discuss serious topics, often about politics, the economy, and the development of certain philosophical happenings through time, often viewing what has happened on a kind of timeline. For example, if I'm talking or thinking about the development of medicine, in my mind, I like to conjure up a kind of image of how it has evolved or progressed - I think "it's gone from herbal and supernatural right through to the point where so many scientific breakthroughs are taking place that we believe we are godlike; we have begun to shape our own purpose in life". I consider these ideas to help me develop my argumentation skills for later life (when, if I become a barrister, I'll need them).
I will never avoid confrontation if it's necessary - if there's a disagreement between me and another, I find it important to settle the argument, and I have almost total disregard for the consequences, not because I'm careless, but because I value 'getting something out there' over a happy, joyful atmosphere. For example, if I'm walking and talking with my friends, and one says something that he's been repeating that I find insulting, I'll take him up on it: "what is your need for doing that?" I'll question him, I'll give him my feelings on the matter "I don't find it particularly conducive to getting along" and it'll be sorted, because they normally take a mature approach. I like smaller groups of people for discussion, and parties can get on my nerves if the conversation isn't good quality, there are too many loud, drunk, in-your-face people, and the music is poor (although I can shut this out if I'm deep in conversation with someone, so it's a minor problem). I see myself as a thinker and a doer, but not in the traditional sense. I like to think, and then do. I also like to think - like I said - about philosophy, politics etc. and although it seems like it's leading to nothing, for me, it's healthy and productive for my mind and for my communication skills. When I'm at parties with rowdy people, I take on a very quiet stance, but will talk to those worth talking to - interesting people. I dislike formalities: "hi, how are you? How's college going?" and try to refrain from these.
When it comes to romance and potential romantic partners, I like it to happen not through stupid games. I want it to develop from a conversation we're having: "I find you really interesting", "hey, how about I take you out sometime and we can talk more?" rather than walking into a club with the mentality of "let's get pussy"; instinctive, primal, base level satisfaction for lust. However, once we're established, I'm pretty playful, and like to gain domination over the other, but not in a serious way.
The perceptions of Alpha I sympathise with. ENTps, for example, can be unfocused and over-idealistic to me. And INTjs lacking in ambition can also be aggravating, especially if I want to discuss future careers or the like. I also see the perceptions of Beta. Yes, ESTps can get things done, they are driven and ambitious, and I like that. ENFjs (from what I've learned about them being close to 3s) can be a bit on the concerned side with their social statuses. And the perceived two-facedness is also a dislikeable trait. Taking Delta into consideration, I'd definitely perceive ESTjs (from what I've read about them) as being too focused on what is here and now, and not concerned enough with the future and what it might have in store for them.
2. Delta
What I relate to about Delta is their focus on productivity. It's not a constant subject, but it can take up some of my thoughts and actions, as well as discussion. I like to plan things out in my head about where we are going, what we will do when we get there, and what the shortest or most effective route there is. I find it extremely hard to associate myself with those who are going "wherever" doing "whatever we do when we feel like it once we get there" and not really giving a shit why we get there. Also in discussion the topic of my and others' possible careers will dominate.
When I'm with close friends, I like to talk while working out or playing on the Xbox, or multitasking e.g. if I have to sort a CD rack out, I'll talk at the same time as ordering my CDs. Doing something useful while discussing something I like. I also don't mind doing my own thing if others want to do something else. Even if I'm at my friend's, I don't mind if he watched TV while I discuss socionics, or if while he does his workout I play games.
Publicly, I don't particularly enjoy showing my girlfriend 'how much I love her' or whatever. Holding hands is fine, but 24/7 making out is not my ideal unless we're in a private space.
Again, the perception of the overly idealistic nature of Alpha I can relate to.
3. Beta
The skills of induction that Beta has I can relate to. The way they look for the general rules or principles of situations. I often do this. For example, if I'm thinking about a world leader's perceived distasteful actions, I think to myself "well, this is what always happens with these kind of people. They want to get up and play with the big boys, and why shouldn't they? Why couldn't Saddam have WMDs? The US does. The UK does. Russia does. And what's different about Korea's nuclear testing compared to the US' in the mid-20th century? It's all about keeping liabilities down and limited in every conceivable way, because they're afraid of potential threat". Also, their analytical skills in competition I can often use e.g. when I'm with someone and we're having a psychological battle, I'll know what they're trying to or are doing to me, and I will use tactics to counter this.
The perceived goofiness of Alpha I can relate to. The ENTps, for example, I can see this in. (Apologies for using ENTp as the primary example, but I haven't looked into the other types in enough detail.) Also, perhaps it is visible in INTjs.
4. Alpha
I don't really relate to Alpha at all.
Sorry, I just noticed I said: "Expat directed me to a page about the quadras, and told me it might help me in finding my quadra. Well, it did. It helped me find Gamma quadra, followed by Beta, then Beta and Alpha (go to "What's MY Type" if you want to know why I chose Gamma)."
What I meant was: "It helped me find Gamma quadra, followed by Delta, then Beta and Alpha..."
x
Last edited by HitmanISTP; 07-25-2008 at 12:17 AM.
That's what I thought.
He was a good orator. He had a vision. He got the people to like him.
As far as I know, ENFj is the general consensus for his type, although there is of course the obligatory disagreement that goes with any assertion in the universe.
ILI (Indescribable Lovemaking Inc.)
5w4 so/sx
"IP temperament! Because today's concerns are tomorrow's indifferences!"
Lord Fnorgle's Domain - A slowly growing collection of music, poetry and literature.
Stickam music performances
Re: ENTj appreciation thread
Yes, good! I'm listening...
Yes...
Yes, yes...that's it
uhu
trough the ages,
Good, good!
yes...yes
Yes...
oh hush...
Yes!
I like this thread.
LII / INTj
And humble, to boot.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Re: ENTj appreciation thread
Were you having an orgasm?Yes, good! I'm listening...
Yes...
Yes, yes...that's it
uhu
trough the ages,
Good, good!
yes...yes
Yes...
oh hush...
Yes!
I like this thread.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Ancient origins of advantage, not just something additional.
The ENTJ life could be described as a continues orgasmic experience, sometimes we have to consider our darker sides, in order to stay grounded
LII / INTj
I must say I agreeAncient origins of advantage, not just something additional.
The ENTJ life could be described as a continues orgasmic experience, sometimes we have to consider our darker sides, in order to stay grounded
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Brag about ENTjs here.
That's right. This is a brag thread. Talk about all the things you enjoy/admire/like/respect about ENTjs here. Anecdotes are welcome, as well as what you admire/enjoy/like/respect about the type in general. Ready? Set. GO!
The hot type.
get out of this quadra.
They're the snuggliest type. You can squeeze em.
I also like how they explain things in a way that doesn't smell like ass.
Energetic, generally good natured, seem to make good friends. Useful people.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
i love their plays on words, their energy, and their optimism. i also like how i feel so protected when im around them.
ESFp-Fi sub
6w7 sx/so/sp
One of my best friends is an entj. Him and i enjoy laughing heartily at really odd ideas. Like last night at a thai restaurant i started making up stories about the paintings on the wall talking in a shaun connery accent. He thought it was hillarious.
Hes just a cool dude. He just knows how to handle himself. He is basically universally liked. Always positive. Never seen him down really. The chicks think hes hot but somehow he remains perpetually single. he just doesnt care about picking up a great deal.
ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)
"And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaïs Nin
Worked with an ENTJ partner, best ever. They kinda think, like me just hyper. I make sure, if the road is not bumpy, so ENTJ can go straight-toward the main goal. If not, ENTJ is going to bring hell, for almost everyone, as an INTJ. Well, its a different story, more mutual respect, for each other and many more. Its all cool, more like win-win situation, for most part. Yes, some people might not understand what an ENTJ think like, hey thats why we're all different in the first place? We're all unique, in our own ways.
I was partnered with an ENTj for a school project one time and I know ENTjs are supposed to irritate me but working with him was great. He took the role of leader in our group and did an amazing job at it.
And all the ENTjs I know are really good with people.
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