instead of "xxxx are evil", how bout this (ESTp's)

[stevENTj]

Instead of all of the "xxxx are evil" or "I hate xxxx's" type threads how bout this instead. Help me to understand and better appreciate type xxxx. I think this is a little more positive and productive.

I'll start.

Help me to understand and better appreciate ESTp's better.

Of all the types out there, the ones I'm most likely to hate and think are evil are ESTp's. In generic stereotypical terminology that I've seen about this type, I can't stand the "I'm a stud, the world revolves around me" attitude, and the "it's not myyiiieeeee fault that..." lack of personal responsibility. I've known 3 real life examples of ESTp's, and I've seen this in all of them, and I hate it. Of course, I'm better than this. I know there are good and bad things about all personality types out there including my own (whatever it truly is ). I see the bad about ESTp's, but I'd also like to see the good. I've read Keirsey's PUMII so I know a thing or two about the good already, but what else is there? Show me the light.



And yes, this post was very :wink:

[Rocky]

And yes, this post was very :wink:

To be honest, that post sound more that of an introvert. If you truely ARE an introvert, then that means you don't see things as well in terms of "abilities", and how you stack up against other people. This is why an introvert might get frustrated at someone like an SLE for being a showboater; they don't think that the braggot has the goods he claims to have. And you might be right. But that doesn't change the fact that you see things diffrently and that the SLE doesn't really know what he's doing or trying to make you feel inferior or something.

[stevENTj]

rocky, the point of this thread was not so much that I don't understand ESTp's, how they're different, and why they are the way they are and how they can really hurt people or rub them the wrong way. Whatever my type is, I know that I can really hurt and rub some people the wrong way too, so in that respect I'm no different. Rather it's more along the lines of I really hate these "xxxx are evil" type threads. It's so bad on an ILI forum that it's become groupthink to think that a certain type or temperament is "evil" and anybody that says otherwise surely must be out of their minds. This pains me. I want people to understand each other, I want indifference to end, I want everybody to get along, and I want peace and harmony. That in itself is very , hence me mentioning it.

If anything, it's my now highly probable ISFj wife that can't see how and why people are different, gets upset when they are, and could really have a tendancy to villify and "hate" a particular type. I usually find myself tempering her out with to help her understand that people are different and not all people and types are going to choose to live their lives and value the things that both she and I value. I do understand ESTp's (my sister is one of the 3 I mentioned) but really this was just an exercise to maybe help reverse a trend that I don't like, and plus maybe there's some things I'm missing too.

Perhaps you're right and that it's Introverts that are more likely to not understand other people or foreign concepts to them. That isn't me though, so that'd be another reason to put me in the Extrovert category.

[Rocky]

OK...

Sensory-logical Extratim- Marshal
Napolean Bonaparte
Alex Rodriguez
Pedro Martinez
Clint Eastwood
Cher
Madonna
John Travolta
Arnold Schwarzenegger
John Wayne
Lyndon Johnson
Frank Sinatra
Burt Reynolds
Gloria Estefan
Bruce Springsteen
Mickey Mantle
Brett Farve
Arnold Palmer
Wilt Chamberlain
John Elway
Sugar Ray Leonard
Richard Petty

Now, all those people aren't evil, are they? SLEs are my contrast, so I get along with them OK from a distance, but you have to remember that all type relationships aren't equal, so if you have people at INTPcentral or whatever complaining about SLEs and how evil they are, that could possibally just be a Semi-duality relationship kicking in. People of diffrent types view others very diffrently, so what may look evil to you may be just fine to someonelse. If you really do have a problem with someone of a certain type, avoid getting into a close relationship with them. That's all.

[Megan]

Perhaps you're right and that it's Introverts that are more likely to not understand other people or foreign concepts to them. That isn't me though, so that'd be another reason to put me in the Extrovert category.

I disagree with the above statement. Some introverts like INFjs and INFps are much much better than most (I would go as far as to say all) in understanding and to some extent accepting people. Does an ESTj really understand and accept others? are they not extroverts? My experience strongly leads me to believe that people who are intuitive, feelers and observe people at a distance where they can still remain detached are usually best at really understanding people.

[Rocky]

Perhaps you're right and that it's Introverts that are more likely to not understand other people or foreign concepts to them. That isn't me though, so that'd be another reason to put me in the Extrovert category.

I disagree with the above statement. Some introverts like INFjs and INFps are much much better than most (I would go as far as to say all) in understanding and to some extent accepting people. Does an ESTj really understand and accept others? are they not extroverts? My experience strongly leads me to believe that people who are intuitive, feelers and observe people at a distance where they can still remain detached are usually best at really understanding people.

I don't think Extraverts are better at understanding people. The diffrence is that Introverts aren't as good at comparing their strengths and weaknesses to others. Actually, Introverts are better at understanding the relationships between people.

[Megan]

I think the aim of this thread is also a good one. I think it is a good idea to try to understand some of the less popular types around here especially those without representatives to defend them. Not to say that by understanding we should condone some of the less positive behaviors of others though.

[Megan]

The diffrence is that Introverts aren't as good at comparing their strengths and weaknesses to others.

@Rocky

Would you be so kind as to provide an example of this? I think that an actual example might aid my understanding of this point.

Would introverts undervalue or over value their abilities and why do you think that?

[Rocky]

I think introverts generally undervalue their abilities. I think this might steam from introverts seeing things in terms of the relationship between subjects and objects as oppossed to seeing the subjects/objects (the way an extravert does). Introverts don't usually stack up their abilities to others, and when they try it's hard for them to see exactly how they compare. An example of this would be complimenting an introvert on how they are attractive, and then having them either deny it or say something like, "Really? You think I'm cute? " even if they are obviously good looking (to everyone else).

[BigEars]

Instead of all of the "xxxx are evil" or "I hate xxxx's" type threads how bout this instead. Help me to understand and better appreciate type xxxx. I think this is a little more positive and productive.

I'll start.

Help me to understand and better appreciate ESTp's better.

Of all the types out there, the ones I'm most likely to hate and think are evil are ESTp's. In generic stereotypical terminology that I've seen about this type, I can't stand the "I'm a stud, the world revolves around me" attitude, and the "[i]

Imagine if you felt dead inside for not having that attitude. Try not taking a piss for a couple of days and that's what it's like for an estp not to be themselves. Understand we can not help this so called SUPEREGO, it just is.

[Megan]

I think introverts generally undervalue their abilities. I think this might steam from introverts seeing things in terms of the relationship between subjects and objects as oppossed to seeing the subjects/objects (the way an extravert does). Introverts don't usually stack up their abilities to others, and when they try it's hard for them to see exactly how they compare. An example of this would be complimenting an introvert on how they are attractive, and then having them either deny it or say something like, "Really? You think I'm cute? " even if they are obviously good looking (to everyone else).

@Rocky
Yes, I think it is true that many introverts do undervalue themselves.

Some ESTps seem to over value theirs. Male ESTps are a type that I avoid at all cost myself (perhaps without good enough reason). It does seem from what BigEars is saying that people are always giving them stuff(attention, compliments etc) and I am getting the feeling that they are quite irresistable to most.

[trey]

OT @ Rocky - where do you get these lists of people with a corresponding type from?

[Rocky]

A lot of them come from what I have either seen or read about them. Some of it comes from reading what people like Dmitri Lytov and Jon Niednagal have written and who they typed and trying to decide for myself if I agree with them. Charles Darwin, for example, I saw refered to by Jung as an example of an Extraverted Thinker, so that got me started thinking about him and I realized that he was probabley an LSE. I can sense a lot of Delta values in him, too.

EDIT: A lot of the athletes listed are straight from JN, because of his experience in that field, I trust him for the most part.

[stevENTj]

Imagine if you felt dead inside for not having that attitude. Try not taking a piss for a couple of days and that's what it's like for an estp not to be themselves. Understand we can not help this so called SUPEREGO, it just is.

oh well that I understand. :wink:

I know people are different and are just going to be how they are. ESTp's are just very very different from me and I "dislike" how they are and maybe even find it offensive. It's not personal, just very strange and foreign to me. I want to understand them better, though. My sister is an ESTp and we don't get along at all and don't even really speak to each other. This pains my parents too, and I feel guilty about it. So part of my motivation to understand ESTp's better is to help understand my own sister so that maybe we can have a more normal brother-sister relationship someday. It's sad, but I feel closer to my brother and sister in-laws from my wife than I do with my own sister.


But I think I'm making a lot of progress here so I'm happy.


And isn't this a helluva lot better and more productive than if I had turned this into an "I hate ESTp's" thread? :wink:

[BigEars]

Imagine if you felt dead inside for not having that attitude. Try not taking a piss for a couple of days and that's what it's like for an estp not to be themselves. Understand we can not help this so called SUPEREGO, it just is.

oh well that I understand. :wink:

I know people are different and are just going to be how they are. ESTp's are just very very different from me and I "dislike" how they are and maybe even find it offensive. It's not personal, just very strange and foreign to me. I want to understand them better, though. My sister is an ESTp and we don't get along at all and don't even really speak to each other. This pains my parents too, and I feel guilty about it. So part of my motivation to understand ESTp's better is to help understand my own sister so that maybe we can have a more normal brother-sister relationship someday. It's sad, but I feel closer to my brother and sister in-laws from my wife than I do with my own sister.


But I think I'm making a lot of progress here so I'm happy.


And isn't this a helluva lot better and more productive than if I had turned this into an "I hate ESTp's" thread? :wink:

If you truly wanted to help your sister you would appreciate her for what she is. MALE and FEMALE SLE/ESTp's are completly different according to an article I just read, so I really don't think my description of what we are will help. But if she's anything like me she would rather you stop trying to compare yourself to her. She has been winning contest her entire life, she's going to be this way. The best thing to get along with her is not to feed her bullshit, because she knows the difference. Arguing with her will make a situation worse, because in her eyes she is taking all the practical and logical evidence and applying towards the subject to come to a conclusive answer. Therefore, whatever she says is probably right and you are probably wrong. keyword=probably. I can't seem to get along with my brother, simply because he is always comparing himself to me and I am 7 years younger. I don't like that in itself and the fact that he would even do that is pathetic. I just tell him now and days "I don't want to hear it" when he tries to spark an argument or compare himself to me. I would assume that if your sister did this it would help as well. Also, blaze has an estp husband she might be able to tell you more about them.

[stevENTj]

If you truly wanted to help your sister you would appreciate her for what she is.

And that's exactly what this thread is about, trying to appreciate and understand her so that perhaps, someday, I can relate to her, sit down in a room with her, and actually have a conversation with her, and make my parents so happy that they tear up when they see it.

MALE and FEMALE SLE/ESTp's are completly different according to an article I just read, so I really don't think my description of what we are will help. But if she's anything like me she would rather you stop trying to compare yourself to her.

The comparisons were from others, not me.

She has been winning contest her entire life, she's going to be this way. The best thing to get along with her is not to feed her bullshit, because she knows the difference. Arguing with her will make a situation worse, because in her eyes she is taking all the practical and logical evidence and applying towards the subject to come to a conclusive answer. Therefore, whatever she says is probably right and you are probably wrong. keyword=probably.

This is precisely why I have so much difficulty relating to and dealing with SLE's. "all the practical and logical evidence" in the SLE world only relates to Sensory things, not iNtuititve things. here is how it goes.

1) SLE states their opinion/view with primarily Se/Si viewpoints.
2) LIE (me) states mine with primarily Ne/Ni viewpoints.
3) SLE does not see or accept that Ne/Ni even exists
4) SLE says my points are bullshit, I'm stupid, a moron, yadda yadda
5) SLE gets themselves into trouble again, maybe due to not seeing Ne/Ni viewpoint.
6) SLE starts with "it's not my fault that..." shifting the blame away.
7) LIE (me): sigh...

So I've learned to avoid SLE's in general because of this or if I can't, to at least avoid arguing with them because it's utterly pointless for me, especially my own sister. Anytime I open my mouth with her I almost immediately get the "you're so stupid" or "STFU" standoffish look even if I'm just trying to make conversation. Maybe it's something beyond a personality conflict, but I don't know. It's not possible to argue with her if I can't even talk to her in the first place. My father (INTj) has pretty much the same problem just trying to talk to her.

SLE's tend to live in the moment though. They don't think about the mistakes of yesterday, nor the consequences tomorrow. Just right now. So maybe they don't care, and they're perfectly happy with this. NT's are strategic long-range thinkers though, and that's probably a big part of the conflict. Any decision I make today, I'm also thinking about consequences of that decision months if not years or decades down the road. So if they don't care, why should I? So now I'm indifferent and just try to avoid whenever possible. But I'd still like to have some sort of "normal" relationship with my sister if I can...

I can't seem to get along with my brother, simply because he is always comparing himself to me and I am 7 years younger. I don't like that in itself and the fact that he would even do that is pathetic. I just tell him now and days "I don't want to hear it" when he tries to spark an argument or compare himself to me. I would assume that if your sister did this it would help as well. Also, blaze has an estp husband she might be able to tell you more about them.

Well, it's not about trying to compare. I wouldn't do that, and I haven't even really spoken to my sister in 10 years. Although maybe others in my family do. Maybe my parents try to say to her "you should be more like your brother", which pisses her off, and builds resentment both towards her and towards me. The rare times my sister and I are in the same room I can just feel the negativity from her towards me and I have no clue where the hell it's coming from. If my wife and I are together, she usually leaves the room. I think the scenario above that I mentioned with my parents could be for real, so I'll have to ask them about it.

I very much understand that she's going to run and live her life the way SHE wants to run it and doesn't want anybody telling her what to do, or how she should be. I never did this to her, as I'm her "little brother". Who am I to be giving my "big sis" advice? My dad says she's "FIERCELY" independent, and he's INTj. I think maybe he does try to tell her how to live and what to do. Since I'm similar to my dad and he and I do get along very well, he might use me as an example, and that could be where the resentment comes from. I don't know....


Anyways, I'm glad you're hear BigEars. :wink:

[BigEars]

It's like arguing with a wall, we don't like losing therefore, we don't. But I promise you your sister hates arguing, which might make her feelings towards you worse. When two people think differently it's always nearly impossible to come to a meadian, this is how wars start yay! I believe that if you are just nice to people they will be nice back most of the time. So try being nice to her all the time, don't worry about what she says or whatever, just be nice and positive results will produce. THIS IS PRECISELY WHY I KEEP QUIET IN SCHOOL! because I don't want stupid people trying to prove me wrong over something that is irrelevent anyway. We do live in the moment, but I think this is a beautiful thing. We live like everyday is our last, guess what? It very well could be

[stevENTj]

It's like arguing with a wall, we don't like losing therefore, we don't. But I promise you your sister hates arguing, which might make her feelings towards you worse. When two people think differently it's always nearly impossible to come to a meadian, this is how wars start yay!

No it isn't. Socionics, mang! Learn to understand and appreciate each other's differences. Don't go to war over them! :wink:

I believe that if you are just nice to people they will be nice back most of the time. So try being nice to her all the time, don't worry about what she says or whatever, just be nice and positive results will produce. THIS IS PRECISELY WHY I KEEP QUIET IN SCHOOL! because I don't want stupid people trying to prove me wrong over something that is irrelevent anyway.

I AM nice to my sis, or at least I try my best to be and bring the out, but I get cold hostility in return, which is what makes me think there's something else going on in the family that I don't know about.

We do live in the moment, but I think this is a beautiful thing. We live like everyday is our last, guess what? It very well could be

You're right. And if I get hit and killed by a drunk driver tomorrow, all of that NT-temperament long-term strategic careful planning will go completely to waste, and then maybe I should have lived my life like yours. But I can't. I'm an NT, not an SP. I have to be true to myself and who I am and will only be miserable if I try to be something that I'm not. I have to live my life in the way that makes me happy, just as you do with yours.