analyze this ESI criticism

[aestrivex]

in my most recent type thread i mentioned my being unnerved by moral criticisms of ESIs as one of the reasons that i have come to doubt ILI. a prime example of this occurred today, which will serve as an accurate report of what actually happened rather than a distant memory.



i was performing in the band for my school's graduation this morning at lincoln center, a renowned concert venue. the maintenance staff at lincoln center follows very strict union rules, which basically state that the performers cannot move any of the equipment; if you want your chair moved three feet, you have to ask a guy to come move it rather than move it yourself. or else.


while setting up to rehearse a piece with the school choir, some union worker guy came and started moving things that were already in the appropriate places around. i asked him something to the effect of "why did you move my damn chair?" he evidently disliked my use of the word "damn" and complained about it to the choir director, a surefire ESI. the choir director subsequently brought the union worker over to me, forced me to apologize (which i did, rather blandly), and claimed that i had acted wrongly by stating the word "damn." she continued reaming me out for some thirty seconds to my complete indifference and the rehearsal continued without further interruption.

i should explain that i was indifferent primarily because i felt that her accusations that i had done anything wrong were totally off base. i believe that both the union guy and the chorus director overreacted completely. nonetheless, i was rather distraught by the choral director's criticism and, in a sense, refused to accept its truth in a manner that i interpreted to be more Ti than Te, sort of like that i was outraged that she would actually bring up the point and that she was therefore wrong.

this perhaps brings up the issue of whether profane language is actually something to be particularly restricted; i throw it around all the time for the most innocuous possible purpose, while other people might see it as taboo. nonetheless, i feel that there are elements of this situation that are definitely applicable to socionics. by the way that the union worker reacted, i saw him as an insanely over-reactionary asshole and i frankly couldn't care less what that idiot thinks. i'm more dismayed by the way that the ESI handled the situation, which was to impose an arbitrary and (IMO) completely unjust moral standard.


what do you people make of all of this?

[Phaedrus]

Nothing non-ILI in your thinking and behaviour in that situation as far as I can see. To be unnerved by moral criticisms of ESIs is not a good reason to doubt ILI. It still unnerves me from time to time, but after having lived with an ESI for many, many years now, I can see much more clearly than I did in the beginning the many common quadra elements and that it is indeed an activity relation. Is there anything else you think suggests not ILI?

[Creepy-bg]

kill the bitch

[Creepy-bg]

what instrument do you play Niffweed?

[aestrivex]

trumpet. now please keep inane questions to a minimum.

[Creepy-bg]

sorry

[Quirk Satellite Div.]

This is an asymmetric power relation. How well do you even know your band teacher? If I assume this is just some teacher that doesn't really know you that well, the relation in an impersonal scolding is not something that can be predicted by Socionics. You weren't in a situation where you could so easily respond to the choir director's little lecture. There are also other factors to consider here: if the union worker actually complained about you, even if it was a complaint the choir director found trivial, the choir director might still need to put on an act of dealing with the problem. No-one wants to worry about the union worker complaining to higher-ups so the choir director probably tried to handle the situation on her own. ESI's are known to trying to avoid further conflict. Do you think the outburst was acted out or a genuine over-reaction?


What if there is some ESFp making talking with everyone within a two-mile radius about a party of Friday, while an ENTj physics professor is trying to explain the basics behind Bragg diffraction, and the ENTj finally interrupts and spends a half a minute making mocking her in front of the whole class? They are still activity partners, even if the ESFp believes that she could never get along with someone like the professor after the situation. Alright, I know this isn't the best example, but there exists impersonal asymmetric relationships that Socionics doesn't very easily predict.


Anyway, the ESI may think that she needs to show what you did is wrong, even if she ends up bullshitting and over-reacting. The ESI might not actually have a problem with the word "damn", but might be thinking, "I need to somehow make it clear to this kid that he shouldn't be so disrespectful to strangers". In the end, she ends up condemning the word "damn", even if it wasn't her real point underneath. Activity partners don't always need to have the same exact values, just that general life values are easily shared. I know I can be add complete odds about politics with activity partners where it causes strife, however there are some key values that can potentially work very well in a relationship.

Maybe you can go talk to this ESI chorus director later and gather more data about the situation, if you aren't done with school for this session.


Anyway, don't use this situation to gauge your ILI'ness. Go interact with more ISFj's to a point where you can actually analyze the avenue of relationships described by Socionics.

[olduser]

That rule is fucking retarded. I couldn't stand to apologize to someone who moves chairs thanks to a stupid rule. Your type is NT. I think INTp is likely.

[aestrivex]

That rule is fucking retarded. I couldn't stand to apologize to someone who moves chairs thanks to a stupid rule.

everybody agrees to the stupidity of the rule, but that doesn't and shouldn't connect to the events that followed.

[UDP]

Heath with another Fe porl... for the record, I do not have a problem with what happened. And also, you do not seem to understand WHY your instructor did that to you.



Look Niffweed, I said it before:

There is no debate, you do not want to face reality. You want to hide yourself from it. I understand you cannot be wrong in your stance, Niffweed -- if you were to agree with what I said, it would undermine your identity and many of your posts here on the forum.

if they have to be sacrificed to get dolts like dio to ignore their Se polrs and pay some attention to reality, so be it.

Yes, that is one way to put it. You are both avoiding different aspects of reality. Do you suppose that just because you want to ignore it completely, that people do not have feelings?

In your mind you see Dio as an LII, who is avoiding reality, avoiding his porl. Do you suppose you are any different, just because your porl is some other function?

Someone called you out on something you are avoiding and do not think was important. But then you felt guitly because you realize that, OMG!, some people do care about Fe, and sometimes, Niffweed, you are wrong and acting inappropriate. Your "distraught-ness" comes from someone using your dual seeking to spank you into realizing your porl was a problem.

Alas, "The Critic" was criticized, and done so in the realm of ethics.

this perhaps brings up the issue of whether profane language is actually something to be particularly restricted; i throw it around all the time for the most innocuous possible purpose, while other people might see it as taboo. nonetheless, i feel that there are elements of this situation that are definitely applicable to socionics

Do you really think an LII would go around cussing everyone out the way you do?

porl you have, Niffweed. I do not understand why it is so hard for you to see it. It should be clear to see, based on your interaction with this forum.

[hr:6f2dcb28a6]

i believe that both the union guy and the chorus director overreacted completely. nonetheless, i was rather distraught by the choral director's criticism and, in a sense, refused to accept its truth in a manner that i interpreted to be more Ti than Te, sort of like that i was outraged that she would actually bring up the point and that she was therefore wrong.

Explain yourself here ---- what does Ti>Te have to do with anything?

[XoX]

There exists potential traps.

First:

a surefire ESI

Surefire? Perhaps it was LSI? Perhaps something else? A little mistake here (we all know typing is not trivial, not even for you) and it turns your whole story around.

Second:
To assume that this "surefire ESI"'s behavior (and your reaction to it) in this particular situation can be used to disqualify the ILI hypothesis is perhaps a bit too much. I didn't read your story very thoroughly so there might have been something else included.

That said you are not necessarily ILI. It seems your ILI diagnosis is mostly based on certain vibe your behavior gives. Someone should do an Expat-style value evaluation for you. Fi vs Fe as a Quadra value might be quite easy to figure out. Perhaps Si vs Se too. Or Se vs Ne. Which ever would show the clearest preference. In my case it has been said preference for Fe>Fi has become very obvious in the long run. I'm slowly agreeing with that. There might be a pair of functions which in your case are also "obvious" and help assigning you to a quadra or at least cut out some quadras.

You could start by stating your own opinion about Fi vs Fe and Se vs Ne. I am not quite sure you have Se>Ne preference. At the same time I have some problems seeing you as INTj but everything is possible. Perhaps you have Fi and Ne as values and you are e.g. ISTp?

[aestrivex]

This is an asymmetric power relation. How well do you even know your band teacher? If I assume this is just some teacher that doesn't really know you that well, the relation in an impersonal scolding is not something that can be predicted by Socionics. You weren't in a situation where you could so easily respond to the choir director's little lecture. There are also other factors to consider here: if the union worker actually complained about you, even if it was a complaint the choir director found trivial, the choir director might still need to put on an act of dealing with the problem. No-one wants to worry about the union worker complaining to higher-ups so the choir director probably tried to handle the situation on her own. ESI's are known to trying to avoid further conflict. Do you think the outburst was acted out or a genuine over-reaction?


What if there is some ESFp making talking with everyone within a two-mile radius about a party of Friday, while an ENTj physics professor is trying to explain the basics behind Bragg diffraction, and the ENTj finally interrupts and spends a half a minute making mocking her in front of the whole class? They are still activity partners, even if the ESFp believes that she could never get along with someone like the professor after the situation. Alright, I know this isn't the best example, but there exists impersonal asymmetric relationships that Socionics doesn't very easily predict.


Anyway, the ESI may think that she needs to show what you did is wrong, even if she ends up bullshitting and over-reacting. The ESI might not actually have a problem with the word "damn", but might be thinking, "I need to somehow make it clear to this kid that he shouldn't be so disrespectful to strangers". In the end, she ends up condemning the word "damn", even if it wasn't her real point underneath. Activity partners don't always need to have the same exact values, just that general life values are easily shared. I know I can be add complete odds about politics with activity partners where it causes strife, however there are some key values that can potentially work very well in a relationship.

i think that the anger on her part was very genuine; it may not have been so much that she was actually offended, but that she was offended because she embarrased at having to deal with the complaint. i don't know exactly though.

Maybe you can go talk to this ESI chorus director later and gather more data about the situation, if you aren't done with school for this session.

school is done; at this point it's ancient history anyway and nobody could care less about it anymore.

Anyway, don't use this situation to gauge your ILI'ness. Go interact with more ISFj's to a point where you can actually analyze the avenue of relationships described by Socionics.[/quote]

that is good advice.

[aestrivex]

Someone called you out on something you are avoiding and do not think was important. But then you felt guitly because you realize that, OMG!, some people do care about Fe, and sometimes, Niffweed, you are wrong and acting inappropriate. Your "distraught-ness" comes from someone using your dual seeking to spank you into realizing your porl was a problem.

Alas, "The Critic" was criticized, and done so in the realm of ethics.

i guess that's a fair explanation.

Do you really think an LII would go around cussing everyone out the way you do?
[/quote]

i believe that both the union guy and the chorus director overreacted completely. nonetheless, i was rather distraught by the choral director's criticism and, in a sense, refused to accept its truth in a manner that i interpreted to be more Ti than Te, sort of like that i was outraged that she would actually bring up the point and that she was therefore wrong.

Explain yourself here ---- what does Ti>Te have to do with anything?

it's not stated very eloquently. i don't know how to explain my state of mind at the time, but i perceived it to be an anti-Fi reaction, that i was devaluing the FiSe that i had been fed so that i didn't have to deal with it.


perhaps this is not so much Ti as a natural reaction, or something else. as a Ti type with Fi role, if you were put into this situation (ignore the fact that, being a Ti type, you might not get into this situation at all), how would you respond to this sort of criticism?

[discojoe]

If the ISFj in question tried to make me apologize, I'd be very uncooperative. The point here is that being a morally unenlightened ass (like these two plaintiffs were) isn't type-related.

Now, as far as how a stupid ISFj goes about behaving in this way, he only took into consideration that you said something that offended the twerp, but didn't seem to bother with the idea that what you said was very permissible and hardly something that can be seen as being disruptive or offensive (and if it happened to cause some disruption, it's not your problem, but the twerp's for being a baby). If the twerp approached me and complained about your remark, I'd be pretty annoyed at him and tell him to avoid you if he couldn't handle some mild words of discontent.

As to feeling offended by the ISFj, it is very natural to feel offended and pissed off when a flawed moral rule is imposed on you. You shouldn't have cooperated with the twerp's reprisal.

[FDG]

None of the ISFj-s I know give a shit about saying the word "damn", actually, they say it too.

[aestrivex]

As to feeling offended by the ISFj, it is very natural to feel offended and pissed off when a flawed moral rule is imposed on you. You shouldn't have cooperated with the twerp's reprisal.

i didn't; he went straight to the ISFj.

[aestrivex]

Surefire? Perhaps it was LSI? Perhaps something else? A little mistake here (we all know typing is not trivial, not even for you) and it turns your whole story around.

a clear ESI. i typed her after about twenty seconds of seeing her. nothing i've ever seen has remotely contradicted this.

[qupte]
That said you are not necessarily ILI. It seems your ILI diagnosis is mostly based on certain vibe your behavior gives. Someone should do an Expat-style value evaluation for you. Fi vs Fe as a Quadra value might be quite easy to figure out. Perhaps Si vs Se too. Or Se vs Ne. Which ever would show the clearest preference. In my case it has been said preference for Fe>Fi has become very obvious in the long run. I'm slowly agreeing with that. There might be a pair of functions which in your case are also "obvious" and help assigning you to a quadra or at least cut out some quadras.

You could start by stating your own opinion about Fi vs Fe and Se vs Ne. I am not quite sure you have Se>Ne preference. At the same time I have some problems seeing you as INTj but everything is possible. Perhaps you have Fi and Ne as values and you are e.g. ISTp?[/quote]

expat did type me in that thread of his; he came up with something to the extent of introverted, irrational, intuitive, and probably ILI.

what exactly are you suggesting that i do here?

[discojoe]

As to feeling offended by the ISFj, it is very natural to feel offended and pissed off when a flawed moral rule is imposed on you. You shouldn't have cooperated with the twerp's reprisal.

i didn't; he went straight to the ISFj.

That's the reprisal I'm talking about. I'd have told the ISFj that if he can't take some trivial heated dialogue in a work area he should fuck off and give his job to someone more qualified, and I'd absolutely refuse to apologize.

[aestrivex]

As to feeling offended by the ISFj, it is very natural to feel offended and pissed off when a flawed moral rule is imposed on you. You shouldn't have cooperated with the twerp's reprisal.

i didn't; he went straight to the ISFj.

That's the reprisal I'm talking about. I'd have told the ISFj that if he can't take some trivial heated dialogue in a work area he should fuck off and give his job to someone more qualified, and I'd absolutely refuse to apologize.

an admirable sentiment, but that would more than likely have gotten me into trouble for no good reason at all.

[UDP]

perhaps this is not so much Ti as a natural reaction, or something else. as a Ti type with Fi role, if you were put into this situation (ignore the fact that, being a Ti type, you might not get into this situation at all), how would you respond to this sort of criticism?

Hmm....

I would realize that I probably should not have said something like that, but it would not bother me because I know who I am.


I think you may be missing something, however......

And also, you do not seem to understand WHY your instructor did that to you.

There is much, much, much more at stake than your personal blunder, and it is very related to , and how you appear to others. See, you are not just representing yourself, it is not just about you....

i was performing in the band for my school's graduation this morning at lincoln center, a renowned concert venue. the maintenance staff at lincoln center follows very strict union rules, which basically state that the performers cannot move any of the equipment; if you want your chair moved three feet, you have to ask a guy to come move it rather than move it yourself. or else.

You are representing many things.

The rest of your band
Your instructor
Your school
And consequently, your school's ability to perform at a place like this ever again.

All of these things, especially as such a "renowned concert venue", are impacted. It seems like you are unaware that your conduct here has many far reaching consequences. You are representing many things and people, whether you like it or not.

Also, she had to set an example with you. If everyone started acting up, then that would be very detrimental. So although you had a minor offense, you had to be reprimanded. Also, something tells me this is not the first time you ever said anything like that in her presence, and you have complained about band before I believe. So she probably sees you as problematic already, based on your history --- so all the more reason to come down on you as she did.


PS: I did not even realize until now that it was for a GRADUATION CEREMONY.
Jeez, what do you expect? People are going to be tense about presentation as it is.
Total porl on your part, niffweed.
You endangered all of those things I mentioned above -- rest of band, school, instructor --- AND, all of the parents and people who were in attendance, the families of the your classmates. A huge amount of reputation was at stake, so some band member acting up and causing trouble would cause a lot of commotion, and it would be your band instructor's head on a plate if something happened that ruined your school's standing.

[aestrivex]

Also, she had to set an example with you. If everyone started acting up, then that would be very detrimental. So although you had a minor offense, you had to be reprimanded. Also, something tells me this is not the first time you ever said anything like that in her presence, and you have complained about band before I believe. So she probably sees you as problematic already, based on your history --- so all the more reason to come down on you as she did.

this is not true, but you are unaware of it because i left out information of the thread which i didn't see as central to the discussion.


this is the choral director. not my regular band teacher. i have played under her conducting a few times (as i'm one of the better trumpet players in the band, so i r regularly receive the "special" assignments). this, however, was the first time that i had to talk to her numerous times because the piece we played had a very small group of instrumentalists (five; four from my band).

she actually did say something to the extent of "this is the first time i've ever heard anything like this from you."



if i've done complaining about band, it's been about the assistant band director, who is dumber than tcaud, dioklecian, jarno, machintruc, and phaedrus combined. i would love to see him fired. however, i've never voiced complaints about him; the only thing he could possibly have against me is that i, along with everybody else in the band, never cooperate when he's conducting.


the actual band director loves me. no qualms there.

[UDP]

Fair enough.

What I said about reputation, your school's ability to perform at such events, and the impact of all the students and audience members, however, is still a major factor, regardless of your personal relationship with any of your instructors.

[aestrivex]

Fair enough.

What I said about reputation, your school's ability to perform at such events, and the impact of all the students and audience members, however, is still a major factor, regardless of your personal relationship with any of your instructors.

reputation maybe, although i think you're overplaying it just a tad.

for one thing, my school has done graduation there since the dawn of time. it would take more than a minor incident to prevent the use of the concert hall.

[UDP]

Oh. It was overplayed intentionally, yes. It seemed like your band going to that hall was a rare thing when I originally interpreted it, but originally it escaped me that you were there for a graduation ceremony, so it did not occur that you usually go there.

[discojoe]

As to feeling offended by the ISFj, it is very natural to feel offended and pissed off when a flawed moral rule is imposed on you. You shouldn't have cooperated with the twerp's reprisal.

i didn't; he went straight to the ISFj.

That's the reprisal I'm talking about. I'd have told the ISFj that if he can't take some trivial heated dialogue in a work area he should fuck off and give his job to someone more qualified, and I'd absolutely refuse to apologize.

an admirable sentiment, but that would more than likely have gotten me into trouble for no good reason at all.

Fuck trouble. Don't let people push you around.

[mikemex]

Forget about psychology for a moment, can you? The problem here is that rough language is indeed meant to be offensive (even if it becomes part of the everyday language over time); and in your situation it was uncalled for. You're used to be mean and think (wrongly) that the world must adapt to you. But it doesn't work that way.

You don't live alone, and whatever you consider appropriate or inappropriate is irrelevant. What matters is how others are going to interpret what you do. Being around your friends and other people who already knows you is going to make it easier to express yourself any way you wish, but most of the time you're going to face people that you don't know and that you're not sure how are going to react.

That's why social rules, norms, etiquette, etc exists. Those are universal rules of behavior that minimizes tension between the members of a society that would otherwise conflict. For example, hand greetings, which essentially consist in showing your hand's palm to the other person, started as a measure to show other people that you are unarmed.

Politeness has thus one and only one purpose: to demonstrate others that your intentions are not negative. You know that your own intention wasn't to be mean, but the other person didn't. And since you failed to demonstrate it, the conflict started.

[discojoe]

^No, the twerp would have wanted to tell on him for "yelling" and was just using the utterance of the word "damn" as an excuse. People like that are faulty and should be discarded. Sure, niffweed could have handled things more diplomatically, but saying "damn" at a person is hardly grounds to report someone. In the context of the entire situation niffweed didn't do anything wrong, and being forced to apologize was stupid on the part of the teacher or whoever.