How can one be an NT, intuitive and logical at the same time?

[KSpin]

Yeah well, I was half joking. A minute flash of fury though.

Like me to return to reasonable, open-minded and backed-up-with-evidence mode?

Basically, KSpin, I'm only going to consider another type when one is thrown in my direction. Either I'll look at it and say: "Yes, that is me" or "No, that is not, and here's why". I'll always back up my answers with evidence if they need backing up.

Why don't you tell us a bit more about yourself? Tell us who you find interesting, what sort of subjects you enjoyed at school/what you're studying now at University. What are your hobbies? What sports do you enjoy (if any), and why?

Don't look up what ENTjs would say and put those down, but actually tell the whole truth. (I'm not saying that's what you were doing before)

[Ezra]

Don't look up what ENTjs would say and put those down, but actually tell the whole truth. (I'm not saying that's what you were doing before)

KSpin, I swear to you that everything I write now will be the truth. There are no ulterior motives. This is coming from me, the whole me.

Prepare for an odyssey, by the way.

I'm a tough person to describe. I'm aware of how people perceive me, but not to the extent that I care as such. I take pride in the fact that I'm seen as someone who doesn't subscribe to the norm. It was more evident at school, because I was surrounded by uncultured and narrow-minded people from my home town (which was voted Most Uncultured Town in the UK by The Times in 2004), but even at college, I was aware of my difference. What I don't like is being told I'm rude or arrogant, I will always defend myself against this kind of criticism. I have a lot of self-confidence, and people often mistake this for narcissism. I like to speak out in class as much as I can, and sometimes I say certain things that are deliberately controversial to get a debate going. I love the attention too. I like to be asked questions about my views so that people can understand me. I don't approve of my classes turning into The Ezra Show, which has frequently happened in Philosophy, but it was probably down to me anyway. Often the way things come out of my mouth make no sense whatsoever to others. One minute I can be talking about being in a room full of hypocrites - "you all buy this capitalistic gear and wear it, so don't complain about sweatshops" - and the fact that I support capitalism, and that I think trafficking drugs is a legitimate form of business, and the next, I wonder why I'm not in south-east Asia rounding up an army Spartacus-style to give these American corporate fat cats a nuke a revolution.

I enjoy debating a lot, because of the possibilities it entails, and Philosophy which I've been studying for two years at college has given me almost full reign to do that. I often annoy my teachers with my aggressive, dominating and loud style of talking, and I want to know about what I want to know about - for example, if we're talking about economic philosophy - Rawls, Nozick and such - I'll somehow tenuously link it to Castro and his regime, because at that point in time, I'd be reading Che Guevara's biography in my spare time. Once a topic has grabbed me, I want to link it to everything we discuss. At one point, when I was 14 - 16, I went through a phase of having a passion for all things Asian. I bought a fouton, bamboo plants, played as the Japanese, Chinese and Koreans on Age of Empires, began learning Japanese, got into the philosophies of Taoism and such... the whole deal. Then, it faded out. I also like English literature (which I've finished studying), but I don't have a full passion for it, which is why I'm going on to study Philosophy in September at Manchester University. I've always been told English is one of my talents, by both teachers and parents alike. It's mainly my ability to articulate well what I'm thinking or want to say, I think. I can write quite well, and have been told that I write academically by my Ancient History teacher. I find Ancient History fascinating. I can get deeply pulled in by the period of history, and can become obsessed with ideas about it, like, for example, Athenian politicians like Perikles. And, yes, you guessed it, I link it in with my Philosophy somehow.

I get on quite well with my family. My father is the only one I can really have a proper talk to about philosophy and theories like the Enneagram, MBTI and socionics more recently. My brother, sister, and mother feel disconnected, and even often excluded. My father's laziness can get quite irritating, and my mother's bossy nature is infuriating for all of the family. I myself fulfil my duties as a member of the household, but get annoyed when too much is asked of me - I generally stick to myself until someone engages with me, unless, of course, it's talk about theories and such. I have two friends in this little shithole that I hang around with on a regular basis. Both are childhood friends, one I go to college with. I interact well with them, as much as we are completely different from each other (one is a romantic aspiring film-maker who is very successful with girls for his talent to make them feel a million who shares my passion for film, the other a quiet, coldly analytical sort who shares my passion for philosophy). I often dominate a lot of the conversation, but it's generally equally split in the time we give each other. We all like to party, but while those two are in small doses, I like a lot of parties PROVIDED the people are interesting, there are opportunities , and there is a generally good atmosphere.

I love film. I often have a habit of seeing the reviews then having a formed opinion in my mind, but recently I've become more independent in my choices. I love music too, my favourite being downbeat electronic music (some would call repetitive and boring) and fusion of world and electronic, and soundtracks are also high up in my list of genres. I like to completely immerse myself in music and zone-out, but I normally just listen to it in the background while I'm working, playing on the Xbox (which I can do for hours and hours - I essentially numb out on it and get a headache after 6 hours), or reading non-fiction which can be read whilst listening to music.

I like to work-out and run, but I go through phases of doing it. Normally I'll keep it up throughout the year, but then I'll stop for a few weeks. It makes me feel good and healthy, which is important to me, to my balance and equilibrium.

I don't like people trying to control or dominate me, which is why said dominating mother can have a negative impact on me, and, consequentially, her. I don't like people who start fights for no good reason - I believe everything happens for a reason - and if they are making an attack on me, I see it as weakness and fear on their behalf. Counterphobia.

I can go through phases of being very, very quietly active. I don't initiate any conversation or anything; it's normally because I'm engrossed in a project I'm doing, or on here (the net). I can be perceived as passive, and - if something is required of me - passive-aggressive. On the other hand, I can be intensely in people's faces, and very energetic and loud, laughing at anything and for prolonged amounts of time. Once I start something, I find it very hard to stop, unless it's completely draining me. Even then, I'll often carry on if I know it's doing me good. I love the rush I get from working (and working-out).

My life is quite routine-orientated. If I'm not at college, I have a shower, breakfast, and come on here to check my stuff (which is neatly laid out in order on tabs) and the go upstairs to work (revising currently). I like to do a lot, so that I feel like I've achieved something, then lie back for the rest of the night.

I like interesting people. People who are straight to the point. People who aren't hyped up like little children fed on sweets. People who enjoy good times, and can have good times when necessary. I like motivated people; I have no sympathy for lazy, uncommitted people. I like people with imagination, but not too sprawled ones, and caring people who bring out the best in me; people who are attentive/physically aware of the warmth I will give them if only they reach my little soul child. People who go off on tangents can be quite annoying ('stick to the point') and here I am hypocritical, because I often go off on tangents in conversation.

I often wonder to myself where I'll be in a given amount of time. I like to think: "that will become reality if I work". It's a good motivator for me. I only ever compare myself to others if it has fruitful effects.

That's all I can think of right now. Let me know if you need any specifics or want me to elaborate on certain areas.

[Mea]

I see lots of
I think ENxp. IMO.

[KSpin]

I see lots of
I think ENxp. IMO.

With the intense routine being a shield for their temperament?

[Gilly]

I might almost go to Ti-ILE for Ezra based on this, although Ti-SLE certainly still isn't out of the picture.

[Gilly]

Put it this way, Expat. Ss do not know of a larger works. They go along with what's in front of them.

Start reading Socionics literature, and in a year or so you might be able to correct Expat or tell him something he doesn't already know about Socionics. None of us are infallible, but you have a long way to go before you have amassed nearly the understanding or amount of knowledge regarding Socionics required to discuss it intelligibly. Most people who have been here for a year or longer still aren't very confident in their true understanding of the system and/or typing ability.

So basically, if you want anyone to take your opinions seriously, and if you want us to stop calling you an idiot for saying things that you have no clue about....start studying.

[Ezra]

So basically, if you want anyone to take your opinions seriously, and if you want us to stop calling you an idiot for saying things that you have no clue about....start studying.

Hahaha.

I learn as I go. What use is studying intensely then talking if you can learn much better by talking, getting mauled for it, and learning from your mistakes? Already, after 3 weeks, I've grasped some of the basic concepts of socionics. And that hasn't just been due to reading. In fact, I bet if I'd just read about it, I'd still be wanting to know what a function is. It's because of your not taking my opinions seriously that I'm learning so much quicker than I would otherwise. I feed off your criticism.

[KSpin]

So basically, if you want anyone to take your opinions seriously, and if you want us to stop calling you an idiot for saying things that you have no clue about....start studying.

Hahaha.

I learn as I go. What use is studying intensely then talking if you can learn much better by talking, getting mauled for it, and learning from your mistakes? Already, after 3 weeks, I've grasped some of the basic concepts of socionics. And that hasn't just been due to reading. In fact, I bet if I'd just read about it, I'd still be wanting to know what a function is. It's because of your not taking my opinions seriously that I'm learning so much quicker than I would otherwise. I feed off your criticism.

Your comments actually remind me of my INTj friend, who just bounced ridiculous notions off of me. He would say crap as if it were a fact, waiting for me to get riled up because it was a load of nonsense.

Edit: Which would of course indicate ENTp, if you think you're extroverted.

[Slacker]

So basically, if you want anyone to take your opinions seriously, and if you want us to stop calling you an idiot for saying things that you have no clue about....start studying.

Hahaha.

I learn as I go. What use is studying intensely then talking if you can learn much better by talking, getting mauled for it, and learning from your mistakes? Already, after 3 weeks, I've grasped some of the basic concepts of socionics. And that hasn't just been due to reading. In fact, I bet if I'd just read about it, I'd still be wanting to know what a function is. It's because of your not taking my opinions seriously that I'm learning so much quicker than I would otherwise. I feed off your criticism.

>

[Gilly]

It's just annoying having you run around acting like you know shit when all you really need is at one website - socionics.us. If you just go there, read the sections on theory, functions, Model A, etc, then you'll have a great jumping point and you won't have to annoy the rest of us with absurd generalizations, MBTI-hangover bullshit, and general nonsense (although this last part doesn't really ever escape many posters here, so that's more up to you and whether or not you have a good brain and more free time than is generally healthy).

FWIW I'm a purporter of your approach as well for general learning, but Socionics is something that is going to take probably a few years of that alone to understand. You're going to need to do some independant research.

[Ezra]

I like the way you think.

I use that as my main source, by the way. Refer to it every now and then for reference when someone says "what the fuck are you on about? Here, read this on socionics.us". I always do. I also like to gaze over and over at the information elements to determine my type. Never works.

[KSpin]

I like the way you think.

I use that as my main source, by the way. Refer to it every now and then for reference when someone says "what the fuck are you on about? Here, read this on socionics.us". I always do. I also like to gaze over and over at the information elements to determine my type. Never works.

Take a gander at the Wikipedia page, too.

[Ezra]

I found this somewhere, can't remember where:

http://wikisocion.org/~wikisoci/en/i...itle=Main_Page

It's half-done, but if you all expand on it, it can become another quality source of info like socionics.us.

[Gilly]

Yeah, and it won't, either. Rick's full functional descriptions are pretty damn good, but he only had two last time I checked, Ne and Fe. Read those and see if they ring any bells.

[Ezra]

Oh yeah, I've heard great things about Joy. She got shit on EIDB for a bit too. She was the one who lead me to this fantastic source of mystery and entertainment. Apparently everyone hated her.

[aestrivex]

Oh yeah, I've heard great things about Joy. She got shit on EIDB for a bit too. She was the one who lead me to this fantastic source of mystery and entertainment. Apparently everyone hated her.

lol

[Gilly]

although Ti-SLE certainly still isn't out of the picture.

Oh, please no.

I think we've got Joy 2.0 here now.

What, you think I'm any happier to admit him as an ILE?

I think he's more like Me 2.0, if anything. He's got the ego and intellectual preoccupation, at least (thankfully I've nearly rid myself of both by this point...)

[Ezra]

Yeah, and it won't, either. Rick's full functional descriptions are pretty damn good, but he only had two last time I checked, Ne and Fe. Read those and see if they ring any bells.

Interesting article. Fe rang no bells, Ne... some bells.

Could someone please explain to me - sorry - give me an example of the Ne's ability to connect unseen ideas together? I find examples are the best way to get my head around potential type.

[Gilly]

Ganin actually gives a good example in his "ENTp - Uncovered" description: combinatory lateral thinking.

If you want to think about Ne as a dominant function, I'll tell you the ways in which I notice Ne in myself on a daily basis.

1. The first part about Ne that you will hear is seeing "possibilities." Example - Everywhere I go, I see improvements that could be made. When I see a billboard, I immediately think of ways to make the ad funnier, the colors more attractive, the message more compelling, the punch line more ironic...when I see a car, I think about how they could have traced the fender lines differently to make the car more attractive, or how they could have added a spoiler to give the car a more aggressive feel...even when I look at my TV remote, I see about a billion more logical ways in which the buttons could be organized. Ne sees connections and possibilities everywhere; determining whether they're feasible/realistic or not is not even part of the thought process that conceives them, and 9/10 times isn't even of much interest to the Ne type.

2. The second part of Ne is seeing through to the "essence" of a concept. Example - In my head, everything gets "summed up." When I listen to someone talk, without even trying I summarize what it is they're saying in my head. When someone expresses an idea to me, 9 out of 10 times I can give it back to them in about half as many words. Ne sees concepts and ideas in their simplest terms, as opposed to their conceptual whole: it likes to summarize and break down to the most basic terms, the simplest way in which a concept or idea can be understood.

[Expat]

Oh yeah, I've heard great things about Joy. She got shit on EIDB for a bit too. She was the one who lead me to this fantastic source of mystery and entertainment. Apparently everyone hated her.

Not here -- not everyone. I like her and so do others.

[Expat]

because I was surrounded by uncultured and narrow-minded people from my home town (which was voted Most Uncultured Town in the UK by The Times in 2004),

Before people get the wrong idea -- it's quite a wealthy town. That's where the UK headquarters of my last job there used to be.

I agree with Gilly, perhaps I was too quick to rule out dominance, but I still think SLE is more likely than ILE.

[Ezra]

Not here -- not everyone. I like her and so do others.

Yes, I was told a few people loved her. I personally saw nothing wrong with her when she came to EIDB, and the one or two posts I caught here before she left were fine. Why didn't people like her?

She got 13104 posts - that is (an) insane (20 posts a day!); 5919 is the next one down, and that's rmcnew.

[Ezra]

Ganin actually gives a good example in his "ENTp - Uncovered" description: combinatory lateral thinking.

Yes I read that a week ago or so. Interesting insights. It partly rings true actually.

1. The first part about Ne that you will hear is seeing "possibilities." Example - Everywhere I go, I see improvements that could be made. When I see a billboard, I immediately think of ways to make the ad funnier, the colors more attractive, the message more compelling, the punch line more ironic...when I see a car, I think about how they could have traced the fender lines differently to make the car more attractive, or how they could have added a spoiler to give the car a more aggressive feel...even when I look at my TV remote, I see about a billion more logical ways in which the buttons could be organized. Ne sees connections and possibilities everywhere; determining whether they're feasible/realistic or not is not even part of the thought process that conceives them, and 9/10 times isn't even of much interest to the Ne type.

Instinctively, no, I do not see this in me. But thinking about it, there have been occasions whereby I look at something and want to improve it. I always thought it was due to my organisational skills (and often it is - for example, if I see misplaced apostrophes), but some of it is aesthetic. For example, I see a shop with blue comic sans font and a yellow background I think "what the fuck is that? That is awful. Why choose that regular blue and yellow for the backing? It would look better if you changed the font to a different colour, like silver, and had it protruding out of the board, and then changed the backing colour to black or something more fitting for it". But I'm not sure I'm as obsessive about it as you seem to be.

2. The second part of Ne is seeing through to the "essence" of a concept. Example - In my head, everything gets "summed up." When I listen to someone talk, without even trying I summarize what it is they're saying in my head. When someone expresses an idea to me, 9 out of 10 times I can give it back to them in about half as many words. Ne sees concepts and ideas in their simplest terms, as opposed to their conceptual whole: it likes to summarize and break down to the most basic terms, the simplest way in which a concept or idea can be understood.

I can see this. It explains my trying to simplify socionics and just having "it's much more complicated than that... you need to do more research" or "go read about it you fuck" thrown back at me. I see it more in me than the first one. I'm annoyed by people who a) overcomplicate matters, b) use "like" and "sort of" to extend everything but the essence of the point they're trying to make and c) can't articulate themselves properly in general. Again, the hypocrite in me emerges. As I've said twice before, people often see me as incoherent. In fact, I bet the only reason you can really understand me now is because this is a message board, and hence I a) can look at what I've done, b) am forced to be more systematic, c) can rearrange my thoughts to do this and d) I am more controlled, because I'm typing while thinking, not speaking while thinking (which accelerates time passed immensely). In short, I slow down and organise.

[Expat]

I think that Gilly's second point is more + than pure , unless Slacker Mom agrees with it.

[Ezra]

because I was surrounded by uncultured and narrow-minded people from my home town (which was voted Most Uncultured Town in the UK by The Times in 2004),

Before people get the wrong idea -- it's quite a wealthy town. That's where the UK headquarters of my last job there used to be.[/quote]

It is indeed - one of the best areas for entrepreneurs in Cheshire too, apparently, which probably means one of the best in the UK. In fact, I'm sure it's amongst the top 5 richest towns in the UK.

Was it AstraZeneca? There's also another business ending in "-us" but I'm not sure what it is.

But I heavily recommend anyone planning to live in the UK to stay away from Macclesfield.

I agree with Gilly, perhaps I was too quick to rule out dominance, but I still think SLE is more likely than ILE.

I'll keep that in mind.

......

Wait... Expat, how did you know I live in Macclesfield? I didn't give that information.

[Expat]

Wait... Expat, how did you know I live in Macclesfield? I didn't give that information.

because I was surrounded by uncultured and narrow-minded people from my home town (which was voted Most Uncultured Town in the UK by The Times in 2004),

[Ezra]

because I was surrounded by uncultured and narrow-minded people from my home town (which was voted Most Uncultured Town in the UK by The Times in 2004),

Hahahaha. You searched on Google. Classic.

[Slacker]

I think that Gilly's second point is more + than pure , unless Slacker Mom agrees with it.

Yeah I don't think I do that.

[Blaze]

I think that Gilly's second point is more + than pure , unless Slacker Mom agrees with it.

Yeah I don't think I do that.

and not sure i do either, actually. Ne is a little different than that.

[Ezra]

My best friend told me about how he perceives me today.

It was interesting that he came up with some very different ways of how I perceive myself.

For example, I did the Johari Window, and then we found the Nohari Window, and he wrote as one of my flaws chaotic. I found it very interesting, because I never really perceived it in me.

I've started seeing ENTp in my a lot. I can cover it all up with this organisation and methodical, calm logic, but that is not the way I operate in real life. I'm as ENTp as they come.

By the way, is Socionics like MBTI in that you can develop parts of you i.e. if I am ENTp, and want to be more organised, can I do so? I s'pose I already do (that's why I mistook myself for ENTj).

[Exodus]

Ganin actually gives a good example in his "ENTp - Uncovered" description: combinatory lateral thinking.

Yes I read that a week ago or so. Interesting insights. It partly rings true actually.

1. The first part about Ne that you will hear is seeing "possibilities." Example - Everywhere I go, I see improvements that could be made. When I see a billboard, I immediately think of ways to make the ad funnier, the colors more attractive, the message more compelling, the punch line more ironic...when I see a car, I think about how they could have traced the fender lines differently to make the car more attractive, or how they could have added a spoiler to give the car a more aggressive feel...even when I look at my TV remote, I see about a billion more logical ways in which the buttons could be organized. Ne sees connections and possibilities everywhere; determining whether they're feasible/realistic or not is not even part of the thought process that conceives them, and 9/10 times isn't even of much interest to the Ne type.

Instinctively, no, I do not see this in me. But thinking about it, there have been occasions whereby I look at something and want to improve it. I always thought it was due to my organisational skills (and often it is - for example, if I see misplaced apostrophes), but some of it is aesthetic. For example, I see a shop with blue comic sans font and a yellow background I think "what the fuck is that? That is awful. Why choose that regular blue and yellow for the backing? It would look better if you changed the font to a different colour, like silver, and had it protruding out of the board, and then changed the backing colour to black or something more fitting for it". But I'm not sure I'm as obsessive about it as you seem to be.

What you're describing is Si, and maybe Ti too.

As for being chaotic, that is just EP temperament; IMO it doesn't point one way or another.

[Ezra]

As for being chaotic, that is just EP temperament; IMO it doesn't point one way or another.

But it surprised me, because I've always seen myself as somewhat organised. Never chaotic. I think he meant physically I am very organised, but it does not reflect my mental status - mentally I'm messy and disorganised, and I have ideas being generated very quickly; it's a high energy area.

He, by comparison, is a lot more methodical and systematic in his reasoning and logic. He will clarify his points, and hates not knowing something - he can't leave something open ended. I've picked up this trait.

[Exodus]

I think that EP are spontaneous in that they are more responsive to the uncontrolled stimuli, such as idea generation, outside space configuration change, etc. and EJ first, on an unconscious (not the model unconscious) level receive this signals which immediately are fed into their program judging in the same block, e.g. Te for ESTj (Si would receive signals of aesthetics, health of a person, etc., look of the things around), so in essence, they already have a plan, so to say, where as EPs can contemplate further and postpone action, because they don't have to process their signals through the rational function unless choose to, where as EJs literally are wired to be non-stop. Does thehoteleambush agree?

Yes, as dynamics EJs are more evenly in contact with their environment, whereas EPs tend to seem more spontaneous because they switch back and forth suddenly between active and inactive states. Likewise IPs are more evenly inactive than IJs.

[Ezra]

I think that EP are spontaneous in that they are more responsive to the uncontrolled stimuli, such as idea generation, outside space configuration change, etc. and EJ first, on an unconscious (not the model unconscious) level receive this signals which immediately are fed into their program judging in the same block, e.g. Te for ESTj (Si would receive signals of aesthetics, health of a person, etc., look of the things around), so in essence, they already have a plan, so to say, where as EPs can contemplate further and postpone action, because they don't have to process their signals through the rational function unless choose to, where as EJs literally are wired to be non-stop. Does thehoteleambush agree?

Yes, as dynamics EJs are more evenly in contact with their environment, whereas EPs tend to seem more spontaneous because they switch back and forth suddenly between active and inactive states. Likewise IPs are more evenly inactive than IJs.

This is very good in explaining how I am.

Why do EPs do said switching?

[Exodus]

I think that EP are spontaneous in that they are more responsive to the uncontrolled stimuli, such as idea generation, outside space configuration change, etc. and EJ first, on an unconscious (not the model unconscious) level receive this signals which immediately are fed into their program judging in the same block, e.g. Te for ESTj (Si would receive signals of aesthetics, health of a person, etc., look of the things around), so in essence, they already have a plan, so to say, where as EPs can contemplate further and postpone action, because they don't have to process their signals through the rational function unless choose to, where as EJs literally are wired to be non-stop. Does thehoteleambush agree?

Yes, as dynamics EJs are more evenly in contact with their environment, whereas EPs tend to seem more spontaneous because they switch back and forth suddenly between active and inactive states. Likewise IPs are more evenly inactive than IJs.

This is very good in explaining how I am.

Why do EPs do said switching?

Because they are static, and tend to perceive reality as being in binary, on/off states, instead of in continuous change like dynamics do.