Ignoring and demonstrative function fears

[drake]

.
Function of Concrete Art
strong
producing

Your function of concrete art is a function which automatically creates for yourself and helps others with. You typically are not even aware of this function as a skill.

... phobia - the fourth and eighth functions

Source: http://www.the16types.info/models.php

Now. Please, explain on a concrete example. If a person has eigth function as a phobia (according to the description), how is it possible for this function to be a skill??

If I fear something (phobia), how can I help others with my fear?

Be brief and clear.

Thanx.[/quote]

[Slava]

Our own fears are what we focus on the most, and thus we are best at solutions regarding those fears. Someone with mental problems is the best person to go to for help with mental problems. Someone who fears alergic reactions is the persony ou would go to to ask questions about medications. This also applies to perceptions. If one is afraid of the future because they cannot see it, they most likely have an arsenal of advice for making your future a good one (unless they are still ignorant about the existance of their fears)

[Rocky]

You have a PHOBIA for using your 8th function directly... but you still gain knowledge in that area through your 2nd functon.

[Waddlesworth]

From my understanding the 8th function is ignored consciously, but the act of using the 2nd, by environment, manipulates Te automatically.

You don't focus on the practical application of it, but the practical application just happens. Like making a puzzle or something. An ENTp can be pretty good at this, finding their own way of doing it. They aren't usually good at making a puzzle based on someone else's instructions, since they are dominant intuitive in the static ring. They produce using their creativity Te, but are not so much consciously aware of this since they are too busy exploring possibilities. the type is fixed, you are always stuck in it so you can never sufficiently and consciously practice Te, it just happens automatically when you logically substantiate a possibility.

So when someone asks you to do something, like solve their puzzle in front of class(Te), I'd imagine an ENTp would not usually be up for such an activity. ENTp's don't follow rules, they make their own.

[Angel von Himmel]

The reason why the 8th function need concrete examples [rules, guidelines] is because it would realize itself chaotically. As far as the function goes, it would have no clue how to restrain itself otherwise.

[Rocky]

The reason why the 8th function need concrete examples [rules, guidelines] is because it would realize itself chaotically. As far as the function goes, it would have no clue how to restrain itself otherwise.

No offense, but can you just explain why you think that's what the 8th function is? That seems to be diffrent from my (and apparently Waddlesworth's) understanding of it.

[Angel von Himmel]

No, I basically said the same thing ... I was basically explaining why it was referred to as the "function of concrete art" in that description. I am vague like that sometimes.

[Angel von Himmel]

Actually, to further clarify what I ment ... I was implying that the 2nd function suppressed the activity of the 8th. Waddles had already clarified that, so I did not bother repeating what he had already said.

[Waddlesworth]

Yeah, I think we're all sorta in agreement on that.

You can only consciously manipulate one side of it, the other side just happens naturally, you just can't ever really fully realize that side because you are always looking at the other side.

looking at it linearly. Say Ti is east, Te is west. with each new step down the line of Ti, the last step behind you automatically becomes more Te. You know you did it, it is there, but you are still travelling east. What was east would now be in the west. Sorta strange, but makes sense in an intuitive way.

[indigoroom]

http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18

[Cone]

Here's something about the 8th function that everyone will benefit from.

Let's start with a few axioms. The first function is your foundation; this is the function you use to explore the world. The second function is your spontaneous realization; this function only comes into play when you focus on a task that requires it. Also, the second function is subservient to the first. Anything that the second function focuses on is to further enhance and understand the first function's products.

Now let's show how the 8th function is derived from these two ego functions. I will use myself, an INTp, as an example.

The first function of the INTp is Ni. We can derive from the symbol that it is both reflective in nature (i) and seeks out possibilities (N). Thus, the second function will seek only to enhance these two concepts. Now, the second function of the INTp is Te. Te is both extrospective in nature (e) and seeks out logical reasons (T). So in general, the INTp seeks to explain his reflections of possibilities with extrospective facts, or rather, known facts.

Now, the thing about introversion and reflection is that they are reductionist in nature. So to dispel a popular myth, it is not only Ti but rather all of the introverted functions that seek the so-called "essence" of a concept, whatever form that concept may take. One may argue that even the extroverted functions, when they are in the first position, seek the essence of a concept. However, it is only in the introvert that this is a more direct process, as this is his main concern. The extrovert will get at the essence, but only through expending huge amounts of energy, as he is more interested in connecting ideas than reflecting on them.

Let's say the INTp is checking out possibility X. By his nature, he will constantly reflect on this individual possibility, reshaping it and creating new possibilities out of it. He will also start to reduce it to its more basic forms. However as of now, the possibility is still in the intuitive state: vague and undefined.

Then he decides to write about his possibility. He begins to verbalize it by utilizing Te. This is the process of definition, and with this process, he realizes that he may not have looked at everything in his possibility. He now either proves or disproves it, fixes it, makes it consistent, defines other possibilities, etc. Now he has a more useable idea which is understandable to whoever he addressed it to.

With this comes the definition of the essences from Ni. Products of Ni basically turn into products of Ti. With the spontaneous realization of Te also comes Ti.

The basic mechanism should be the same in all types. Also, the nature of the 8th function may show why quasi-identicals look similar.

About the phobia: I don't know. Am I afraid of Ti? Maybe, maybe not.

EDIT: And for a crazy-ass theory: perhaps the products of the ego are manifested in the 8th function? Thus, IxTps give off Ti concepts in the way ExTps use Ti, and vv.

[Cone]

Ni does not turn into Te. Ni uses Te to turn into Ti.

[Slava]

How do you guys track your thought process while thinking? Wouldn't that taint the observation by itrusive use of functions to watch other functions?

[Cone]

You don't track it while thinking; instead, you track it by remembering a past thought process, like the one you just thought 5 seconds ago.

[Slava]

I can't really think about my thought processies actually i can but its all a blur.

[Cone]

I/E difference?

[Slava]

If so its an interesting discovery. Might improve testing. I do think a lot but its not concious to me. People tell me I analyze or overanalyze, but I don't even realize i'm thinking... i just look around let my eyes jump from one place to another to see cause and effect or to anticipate an effect, and when i speak i unconciously break down what i see into events, actions, and components because i dont see things as a blur, but as real things happening that can be explained in words. But I can't think about thinking while im thinking about something. after i finish thinking about something only a feeling of the result remains. I can only rationalize my thoughts if i concluded them by saying them. Sometimes i respond to peoples questions with statements that amaze even me, and im like where did i pull that out from? Sometimes i want to be asked questions so that i can teach myself the answers by replying and hearing myself say them.

[The Exception]

Could you give some examples of how the 7th and 8th functions would manifest in an INTj?

Laura
INTj, mixed subtype