ETHNO-SOCIONICS

[SFVB]

Anyone familiar with this branch of socionics? Very interesting stuff. I've read a little on it in some Ukrainian articles, but it seems to be one of those "way to out in left field, even for socionists" to spend a lot of time in. If anything, I think it's one of the more fascinating applications of socionics. It attempts to "type" the cultural ethos of a country or ethnic people. For example, according to ethno-socionics, the cultural type of Japan is ISTp, England ESTj, etc...I have my own thoughts on this, but I thought it might be an interesting topic for those who feel a little limited typing only celebrities and dead world leaders.

[MysticSonic]

By any chance, do you two know each other?

[SFVB]

No, I'm pretty sure we don't. California's a big state though. More than enough room for multiple people sharing the same personality type.

As to ethno-socionics, I'm glad to see someone stasteside is also familiar with it. It's fascinating stuff...just for sh*ts and giggles, I'm going to post my own deductions on various countries (cultures)...(I might add that very little research has gone into this on my part, it simply results from my own knowledge of these cultures and some thinking.)

USA - ENTj
JAPAN - ISTp
ENGLAND (English culture, I wouldn't want to lump in the Irish, Scottish, and Welsh) - ESTj
GERMANY - ISTj
SPAIN - ISTp
ITALY - ENFp
FRANCE - INFp
RUSSIA - ESTp
UKRAINE (according to a Ukrainian website) - INFj
SWITZERLAND - INTj (I'm a little skeptical of this one, even though it's my own. Love to have anyone's thoughts on it.)
INDIA - ISFp
KOREA - ESFp
CHINA - ISTj
CANADA - ESFj

That's all I've given thought to.

[Creepy-]

Canada strikes me as being more N than S.

Haha, very cool stuff.

[Creepy-mn]

If I remember correctly, Lev Kamensky typed Malaysia as ENFJ in his website.

[SFVB]

Interesting. Thanks for the addition!

[LevKamensky]

india - isfp? how did u come to that conclusion?

[SFVB]

I look at Indian culture as being very isolationist in relation to extraverted cultures (such as England ESTj) not a lot of conquests or major wars in their history beyond tribal wars within the confines of the sub-continent and foreign invaders forcing war on them. Animals play a large role in Indian culutre (particularly bovines, but many Hindu gods take the form of animals as well.) ISFps are very connected to animals and their obsession with and devotion to them, if you've ever known one well, can border on extreme. Ghandi was most likely an ENTp (feel free to argue this point), which would make their national hero of the twentieth century, the dual to their culture. India gives the impression of being a very colorful society, with unique and aesthetically pleasing styles of dress and architecture. They have never been a particularly industrious culture (Te), which you could argue, but I would counter with the fact that the Indian sub-continent has more natural resources per square mile than Japan and yet they have never managed to industrialize to the level of Japan or most nations with the degree of resources India has access to. (Yes, you may argue that British colonialism ruined India, but they still use a british legal system in their courts and English is an official language, so it can't be ALL the fault of the british.)

I suppose I could go even deeper, but then it starts to get a little ridiculous. Remember, this is TYPING cultures, and is of little practical use beyond maybe understanding diplomatic relations a little better. It still comes down to the individuals that are conducting the affairs of state. I will also say again that VERY little time has gone into my thoughts on this, and is strictly for amusement. I readily admit I could be grossly inaccurate in my analysis.

[LevKamensky]

Very interesting analysis. I lived in Malaysia, where there is a huge community of Indians, and most of them acted very extraverted. Especially the men. On the other hand ISFp is probably one of the most extraverted introverts. But one thing I know is that ISFps are NOT very cyberverted. And Indians ARE. Also we must consider that each caste, probably has its own integral type. Nevertheless, I like your analysis.

[LevKamensky]

Oh yeah, and my girlfriend is an ISFp, and she does not love animals so much...

You know who really loves animals? ESFjs! This would make the dual type -- INTj. And that would explain all the great abstract systems that Indians invented like Vedic medicine, Yoga etc... Indian intellectuals were definitely introverts, not extraverts (meditation)...

India has some of the best programmers, system analysts etc (NT). These guys, are usually quite introverted. (logical subtype of INTj)...

So how about ethical subtype of ESFj??... At any case, probably Alfa Quadrant.

[Dmitri Lytov]

Good illustrations of ethnic stereotypes can be found in a series of books called Xenophobe’s Guide and published by Oval Press two or three years ago. Of course these are not serious books – they are funny. All these books have been written according to the following rule: each book should be written by a foreigner living in that country, or by a person originally coming from that country who later moved abroad. Difference is always easier to notice in comparison.

Let me also express my own opinion (by the way, it is also supported by many Russian socionists):

IRRATIONAL (LABILE) TYPES.
Intuitive-logical extrovert: no idea.
Intuitive-ethical extrovert (pseudonyms: Tom Sawyer, Psychologist): Spain, Israel.
Intuitive-logical introvert (Balzac, Critic): probably India.
Intuitive-ethical introvert (Bradbury, Lyricist): Russia, Ireland.
Sensory-logical extrovert (Zhukov, Legionnaire): Serbia, Turkey, Chechnya, the ancient Rome.
Sensory-ethical extrovert (Caesar, Politician): Georgia (not the US state!), Greece (both ancient pre-Roman and modern, but not Byzantine!).
Sensory-logical introvert (Jean Gabin, Craftsman): Finland, Australia, probably also The Netherlands (not Belgium).
Sensory-ethical introvert (Dumas Jr., Mediator): Italy, maybe also Belgium??

RATIONAL (RIGID) TYPES:
Logical-intuitive extrovert (Jack London, Entrepreneur): USA.
Logical-sensory extrovert (Sherlock Holmes, Administrator): England, Japan.
Logical-intuitive introvert (Descartes or Robespierre, Analyst): Sweden, Czech Republic.
Logical-sensory introvert (Maxim Gorky or Harry Truman, Inspector): Germany, Estonia, maybe also China?
Ethical-intuitive extrovert (Hamlet, Mentor): Austria, Poland.
Ethical-sensory extrovert (Victor Hugo, Bonvivant): France.
Ethical-intuitive introvert (Dostoyevsky, Humanist): Canada, Belarus.
Ethical-sensory introvert (Dreiser, Keeper or Conservator): Switzerland, Ukraine, Scotland.

So, my list does not distinguish a lot from that of SFVB.
However, I’d like to warn against confusing ethnic stereotypes with countries’ governments.
For example, SFVB, you identified Russia with the type ESTP (the Legionnaire). Well, in regard to the actual influence of various mafia groups in Russia, or its long experience of dictatorship, one can make such conclusion, but it is wrong. In fact, generally Russians are emotional and at the same time socially passive; it is this social passiveness that makes possible all kinds of dictatorship. Russians do not like to count each cent, to act according to procedures, and for this reason our country develops impulsively – sometimes great achievements, sometimes deep crises; and in crisis situations, a “strong arm” is just the necessary thing to control such a big and passive country. The interest of Russians to foreign cultures is superficial; such international cities as Moscow and St. Petersburg (where I live) are much different from other Russian cities where life flows very slowly.
I’d propose a criterion to distinguish the own type of a culture from its “socially desirable stereotypes”, i.e. the dual type – the second is admired but somewhat exaggerated, gives many examples of excesses.
The same with Spain. Although “macho”, toreadors etc. are favorite stereotypes among Spanish people, the average Spaniard is emotional, spontaneous and chaotic in his/her actions.
A remark about Belarus. It is the last dictatorship of Europe, and maybe you wonder how I could describe the type of this country as “humanistic”. Well, it is simple: do not confuse the ruling regime and the nation itself! An average Belarusian is of very mild nature, curious and democratic by its behavior. In addition, the dictatorship of Lukashenko has a different nature than that in the Northern Korea or Turkmenistan: I’d rather compare it with Mexico in XX century: opposition exists quite legally, often demonstrates and explicitly criticizes the government, but never wins elections. In my opinion, Lukashenko’s dictatorship is not ideological, but totally economical by its contents (and thus reminds, for example, Kemal Ataturk’s dictatorship in Turkey). I have recently been in Belarus and noticed: Lukashenko is criticized by everybody, but people are passive, they do not want revolutions (why do we need so much blood?).
Japan. Often European and American literature describes Japan as a “closed”, “introverted” culture. It is a wrong impression: Japan was closed for Christians (because Portuguese monks, frankly speaking, made very bad impression on them), but not for other Asian cultures. The Japanese political system is an absolute copy of that in Great Britain in XIX century. There is one more trait that makes Japanese similar to Britons and Americans: these are the three nations known for their respect for money, business, procedures, technologies and lawyers, which in socionics associates with the function of Extroverted Logic.

[SFVB]

Dmitri,

Brilliantly composed. I've read a number of your articles and I have the greatest respect for your knowledge of socionics. I very much see how you reached the conclusions on the cultures that you named in your post, and I easily defer to your experience in the matter which is significantly greater than mine. I find it interesting that you label Russia as an INFp (as you would certainly know better than I), and it would make an interesting analysis to see why a cultural stereo-type like this has such a long history of very rigid and totalitarian regimes. Thanks for the list. It's interesting food for thought.

[Dmitri Lytov]

In fact, ethno-socionics was invented and developed not by me, but by two psychologists from Kiev, Alexander Bukalov and Victor Gulenko.

And Bukalov presumed that each ethnic type contains a "dual image" from the very beginning, i.e., one should distinguish the COMMON national behavior (which reflects the ethnic types) from SOCIALLY ACCEPTED but rare manifestations of the "dual image".

He wrote an interesting article about the American ethnic type, which is, unforunately, not yet translated (I promised to him to do it, when I have more or less spare time, and I still don't (

So, in this article Bukalov considered the manifestations of ISFj in the American culture. For example, these are:
1) "political corectness"
2) religion (America is even the most religious country in the world, except for Musleem countries)
3) very high moral requirements to politicians
4) etc.

[LevKamensky]

"toreadors -- istp"

i don't think so. istps love animals more than humans, and would certainly never harm an animal. i still think southern spain is esfp.

[LevKamensky]

most hispanic intellectuals are intp...

i think enfp is only barcelona

[SFVB]

Fascinating. I'd love to read it when you get a chance to translate it. I wholeheartedly agree about the values of the ESI mandifesting themselves in american culture.

[CuriousSoul]

I would quite agree that Finland is an ISTP country soft blankness; internal independence; hard to impress; not easily excited; (emotionally) cool- and indeed the traditional Karelian culture is the accepted ENFP dual playfulness; tinge of irony; acceptance; frivolous; warm curiosity about people and relationships. There is definitily something to these theories but are there any ways to prove them: does anything follow from these ethnotypes or can they predict anything that could also be proven wrong?

[Dmitri Lytov]

The methods of describing ethnic types are still vague, but this hypothesis allows some kind of forecasting, i.e. political trends in certain nations: which politicians will be more socially accepted than others.

Very often politicians belonging to the "native" quadra make really great resonance in the history of the corresponding nation (even when, years later, they get blamed for all sins). For example, in Finland it was Carl Gustav Mannerheim (ESTj, 4th quadra). In Russia - Lenin, Stalin, Nicholas I, Peter I, Paul I, Trotsky, Ivan the Terrible and some others.

[CuriousSoul]

Actually Mannerheim was almost certainly ISTP. I have studied his biography closely. I will probably write another article about him later...

[Dmitri Lytov]

Maybe, but for sure he was from the 4th quadra.

[LevKamensky]

[link]http://www.oxpe.net/playboy/index.html[/link]

integral types probably change every thirty years. compare the standard of beauty in the 1950s (clearly Beta, ENFj) and 1970s.. Alfa? 1990s Gamma.

[MysticSonic]

Speaking of how certain people in a certain country "are" is absurd, as even those whom live in the country do not truly understand how others in a different class or different locale behaves. Of course, this problem may be especially pronounced in the United States due to the great deal of geological differences in terms of weather, as in comparison to Russia, whose land is roughly frigid throughout all of it's territory.

Thus, generalizations such as "ethno-stereotypes" are not, in any way, shape, or form, a valid manifestation of the behaviour of the citizens, nor the average behaviour of the average citizen. As I have noticed, the great majority of your typings come from the political agenda of the country, and the stereotypical views of it. Even countries whom seem to have very little political agendas in action, the state of the countries whom usually are in such a position is in horrible economic states, and the quality of the life is horrendous. The only countries which I believe may have yieled some sort of ethical-type were the communist countries, whom supress the inividiual and make a homogenous clay which the government does with as it pleases. However, even then the accuaracy of these ethno-types are limited to only a small percentage of the population, although labeling a certain percentage would be rampant speculation upon my part.

In conclusion, ethnic-types are HORRIBLE examples of the people whom live in the country's behaviour. Do not mock and insult the country with making conclusions based upon their political agenda and common stereotypes. However, labelling their POLITICAL AGENDA seems more feasable and realistic. In fact, much more feasable.

[Slava]

So what happens when a country falls in love with another country? Do they dualize, or do they just euqalize. I think america is more ESTJ, especially based on statistics. If you picture a room full of types, and america as ESTJ, america would naturally assume possition of the leader. It would be interesting to computer the relations between countries using this. I also wonder if humans within a society make up a larger concious being that isn't aware of the humans themselves other than just components. and if this is the case then that concious being can control what the group does on a large scale even if it is against the will of the humans that make up the being.... lol, now im just getting creative. But america's hidden agenda as ESTJ would be to be perfect, and as ENTJ, to be wealthy. both seem to fit.

[discourse]

Estonia seems to be either LSI or ESI type of country. I personally think, that we are more of ESI, cause we have a lot of LIE politicians in coverment.

[Slava]

Hahaha they do LIE often.

[Chae]

*bump bump*

A comment on Germany, ISTj is a very suitable type for the culture here. Found a good example from our most popular television news programme, the "Tagesschau" (roughly translates to `Review of the Day´). The speakers usually stick to a very factual and coherent speaking style. Everything is linear and makes sense, no alternative perspectives, no contradictions. The programme itself runs since 1952 at exactly 20:15 pm, every single day.



Notice the Fe-suggestive element, very expressive pictures are used in the background. What's also very Fe, people have a lot of fun creating blooper videos of the show on YouTube.

[totalize]

*bump bump*

A comment on Germany, ISTj is a very suitable type for the culture here. Found a good example from our most popular television news programme, the "Tagesschau" (roughly translates to `Review of the Day´). The speakers usually stick to a very factual and coherent speaking style. Everything is linear and makes sense, no alternative perspectives, no contradictions. The programme itself runs since 1952 at exactly 20:15 pm, every single day.



Notice the Fe-suggestive element, very expressive pictures are used in the background. What's also very Fe, people have a lot of fun creating blooper videos of the show on YouTube.

This is SO German LOL

[Chae]

This is SO German LOL

You just got #supervised. And as I figured - that from an outside perspective, it's coming across as 100% generic

[Chae]

Ok, here's more. The German series called "Tatort" ("Site of crime"). This show runs since 1970, every Sunday evening. It's basically about two police inspectors (Ti) catching criminals (Se) - it can't get any more LSI. Every episode there's a new couple of inspectors in a different city. The whole thing is cyclic (Ni), the dyad returns in every season.

The intro:



The most famed inspector couple:


@totalize

[Pallas]

@Chae Yay, the whole country of Germany can be my dual! I mean, not like that guy... But still, Germany is just pretty beta in general, I've already said, and that it's LSI is also pretty widely agreed. Would Austria be EIE by any chance for a Right in the Gulenko sense general cultural overtone? (That seems fitting considering the history of those countries.) I don't know what the heck Switzerland is, whatever the neutral type is

Plan for finding duals:

- Go to Germany
- Check out all the guys who like crime shows
- See if they're my dual (not that way)

Problem solved

[Chae]

@Chae Yay, the whole country of Germany can be my dual! I mean, not like that guy... But still, Germany is just pretty beta in general, I've already said, and that it's LSI is also pretty widely agreed. Would Austria be EIE by any chance for a Right in the Gulenko sense general cultural overtone? (That seems fitting considering the history of those countries.) I don't know what the heck Switzerland is, whatever the neutral type is

Plan for finding duals:

- Go to Germany
- Check out all the guys who like crime shows
- See if they're my dual (not that way)

Problem solved

You have a point, Germany is like, going all aggressor on Austria (see, I use your terminology) here and there. A romance for centuries.

Switzerland is Fi-lead, I feel at home there. Money, kindness, mountains. A LIE paradise. I sat on a train in Zürich in September and the people were cute, old-fashioned but polite. Going through the streets, it felt like time stood still there. ESI can be neutral I think, EII is anti-war with Se polr so that is probable as well.

Please do everyone a favor and skip Germany. Dualize Putin asap instead before Trump either wins and presses a button or loses and bribes Russia into something world peace threatening

[strangeling]

Switzerland is Fi-lead, I feel at home there. Money, kindness, mountains. A LIE paradise. I sat on a train in Zürich in September and the people were cute, old-fashioned but polite. Going through the streets, it felt like time stood still there. ESI can be neutral I think, EII is anti-war with Se polr so that is probable as well.

Socionics aside, that sounds really nice. I've wanted to go to Switzerland for awhile.

Anyone ever been to Sweden?

[Capitalist Pig]

why are we bumping this very old, racist thread

[GuavaDrunk]

Please differentiate between typing a country based on what they say about themselves, what your specific culture thinks of them, and what other cultures think of them. Then realise stereotypes R lyfe.

[The Reality Denialist]

Yes, all the cultures are the same there is no difference. Nothing to see here.

I live in a very deltaish place. Well, it is at least stable, accepting and very rooted. Quite a bit resistant towards enthusiasm and expressiveness. Without having something to stand on I wouldn't move to USA. Seems quite a bit terrifying how it handles things.

[Tigerfadder]

Socionics aside, that sounds really nice. I've wanted to go to Switzerland for awhile.

Anyone ever been to Sweden?

Sweden is kind of delta st'ish. With a history of delta st leaders, also gamma nt leader, it kind of is valuing Te as a country. Others have said the same. Overall it is good I believe, Stockholm is very beautiful with its water and you find snow here in the winder.

[FDG]

Switzerland is Fi-lead, I feel at home there. Money, kindness, mountains. A LIE paradise. I sat on a train in Zürich in September and the people were cute, old-fashioned but polite. Going through the streets, it felt like time stood still there. ESI can be neutral I think, EII is anti-war with Se polr so that is probable as well.

Yeah I agree that german speaking switzerland seems gamma rational from a stereotypical point of view, especially the area all around Zürich.

[The Reality Denialist]

Sweden is kind of delta st'ish. With a history of delta st leaders, also gamma nt leader, it kind of is valuing Te as a country. Others have said the same. Overall it is good I believe, Stockholm is very beautiful with its water and you find snow here in the winder.

Well, Sweden is certainly not Fe PoLR variation of delta...
nordics.png
It has some alpha elements.
Makes even Fe HA type like an alien at times.

[Exodus]

why are we bumping this very old, racist thread

Racist?

[Chae]

why are we bumping this very old, racist thread

Racism is about the oppression of a deprivileged class of people, not countries per se.

I bumped it because I provided an example and the idea of seeing cultures through interaction of the IEs seemed interesting to examine.