Do LIIs-INTjs feel comfortable initiating relationships?

[jewels]

The INTJ I know seems very comfortable with initiating. I could tell she was introverted, but very confident. She approaches guys much more often than I would, strikes up conversations w/ strangers, etc. I only initiate if the situation makes it really easy to do so...or if someone's standing right there and it'd be rude NOT to talk to them, etc. Where as she will venture into talking to the guys at the next table at a lounge, etc., where I would be afraid to.

I'm not sure if she's like forcing herself to do it or not, but I always thought it was cool she was so confident like that.

I think outgoing-ness and shyness can be type related, but can also be just random and not related to type.

[Creepy-]

Absolutely. After one long 'encounter' with an ESE, I resolved to completely remove myself from it, and not let it affect me. But that doesn't change that it is my dual seeking function. I am indeed wary about too much Fe exposure, especially if I am not in a solid relationship. Such would be intolerable and unbearable, and I of course consciously guard against that.

This made me a little sad. I am sorry you got hurt (I assume) by an ESE, but we're not all bad, and niether is Fe... it's what ESE's live on, in a way. Anyway, I think it's fascinating the way INTJ's can just block themselves sometimes; I can never seem to do that, and then [I]I[I] seem to be the one getting hurt (damned SLE's, lol). Anyway, I just wanted to offer some commiseration here

I can't stand it.
It totally destroys everything
But at the same time it seems the only way to a close personal relationship.

What do you mean when you say it destroys everything?

, however, 'appears' as the sweetest thing. Everybody uses it in different ways, and everyone will react to their dual-seeking function regardless of how it is used.

Can someone please explain to me the different ways is used by different people? How would a person recognize various uses/manifestations of ?

[ataronchronon]

It may seem counterintuitive, but an LII MUST initiate the relationship, even if it takes several weeks or months. Of course, the question is kinda loaded. I don't like to think of relationships as having a beginning or an end. It's very stressful to try and judge our relationship with someone and it only makes us uneasy. It's very relieving to think of it in terms. I feel more at ease around someone if their emotions are right in my face. Like the previous metaphor, if being in a social situation as an LII is like walking into a play that I haven't been casted in, then talking to an ESE is like someone running up to me with some cue cards and a comfy chair.

Ultimately, it's about control. If I ask a girl out, it's me who made the decision and if I screw it up or she doesn't like me, I can just say I should be more careful, or I should just be myself, etc. If I ask the girl it's because I'm interested in getting to know her.
If a girl asks me out I'll probably go along with it, but only to be nice and I probably wont be very interested. A long time ago in high school I went out with a girl that asked me. She was a total bitch (ESI in retrospect) and I just wasn't interested. After a few days I had a friend tell her I didn't want to go out anymore and she got really mad. Anyway, it's a bad idea to ask the LII out because he/she probably wont be interested. It's best to let things flow naturally, or somehow trick the LII into thinking it's not a date, or something like that. It's hard to explain, we are confusing people. Remember, we are passive to so it might be the case that if you like an LII and hang around him/her for long enough and provide enough and it might just turn into a relationship on its own. Don't think in conventional terms. Touch is very important. If you touch the LII and it is well received... mission accomplished. I can either spaz and reel from an unwelcome touch, or melt into a pile of babbling goo from the right touch.

A great movie about an LII with lady trouble: "Lars and the Real Girl". It really parallels my own life in a way, even down to the way he doesn't like being touched, though I will say that I've never dated a mannequin.

[Mediator Kam]

good question, my father "just happened" to be in the places where my mother was. That was how he showed his interest, by just being around her.

If that is initiation, then yes.

[Exodus]

That sounds exactly like something I would say. Introversion and FiSe superego make it really hard to approach people, even if you want to. It's always "what if I say the wrong thing?" or "what if he/she doesn't like me?". But by the time you think it all through the opportunity is gone, and all the thinking just makes you lose confidence more. Spontaneity in communication (especially with strangers) is something I'm really striving for these days.

[Logos]

That sounds exactly like something I would say. Introversion and FiSe superego make it really hard to approach people, even if you want to. It's always "what if I say the wrong thing?" or "what if he/she doesn't like me?". But by the time you think it all through the opportunity is gone, and all the thinking just makes you lose confidence more. Spontaneity in communication (especially with strangers) is something I'm really striving for these days.

That would be the case with me as well.

[fivemoreminutes]

I have never initiated a relationship in my life without having prior knowledge of the other person's interest; and my own desire to do otherwise really has no bearing on anything. I simply am paralyzed to act most times if I cannot already know the outcome will be positive.

[Ms. Kensington]

That sounds exactly like something I would say. Introversion and FiSe superego make it really hard to approach people, even if you want to. It's always "what if I say the wrong thing?" or "what if he/she doesn't like me?". But by the time you think it all through the opportunity is gone, and all the thinking just makes you lose confidence more. Spontaneity in communication (especially with strangers) is something I'm really striving for these days.

ditto

i find out rather quickly when ive started a random convo with the wrong quadra

[DirectorAbbie]

Most people, sure

But types with Fi in their super-ego are afraid of people getting close to them while people with Fe in their super-ego are afraid of being alone.

Fortunately, I'm never alone. I can always talk to God. When I'm physically alone, I'm bored and often productive.

Huh? Fear of rejection? Why would anyone be afraid of being rejected?

They are plenty of better things to be afraid of, like diabetes, serial killers, and politicians.

The only joy in life is to love and be loved.

If you hate the world and the world hates you, it's like Hell and you won't care whether you die.

[RSV3]

Okay. I was hanging out w my INTJ friend yesterday, and I asked him how he would feel about a girl approaching him. His answer was that he would be "really relieved." He said he would have no problem with it whatsoever, especially because he wouldn't have had to worry about it or miss the chance to meet someone he otherwise would not have.

I find this very interesting since it is not at all what I would have expected him to say. Traditional as he tends to be, I expected him to say he would be flattered but taken aback/uninterested/yadda yadda. So what do you other LIIs have to say about his answer?

I think there's a fine line when it comes to showing interest in an INTj. I'll appreciate a girl giving me as many signals of interest (e.g., flirtatious body language, initiating casual conversation, etc.) as she can. Strong hints are appreciated. The point where she can cross the line is when she stops trying to get me to take the bait/lead and starts pushing her agenda on me (e.g., directly asking me out). Once the girl starts trying to control things, that's when I'll disengage.

[UDP]

Hmm. I know songofsappho wrote this a while ago, but I'll try to answer it. I made the post when I thought I was LII some time ago. My life was also very different then. I think my post is... interesting. Espcially about how "Fe" destroyed me, heh.

Anyway, I'll combine my original with song's questions....

Absolutely. After one long 'encounter' with an ESE, I resolved to completely remove myself from it, and not let it affect me. But that doesn't change that it is my dual seeking function. I am indeed wary about too much Fe exposure, especially if I am not in a solid relationship. Such would be intolerable and unbearable, and I of course consciously guard against that.

This made me a little sad. I am sorry you got hurt (I assume) by an ESE, but we're not all bad, and niether is Fe... it's what ESE's live on, in a way. Anyway, I think it's fascinating the way INTJ's can just block themselves sometimes; I can never seem to do that, and then [i]I[i] seem to be the one getting hurt (damned SLE's, lol). Anyway, I just wanted to offer some commiseration here

I do not remember the encounter that I am referring to here.
I still find myself as being wary of Fe coming from people, and, more recent experiences with INFps have furthered this.

I realize now that from INFjs is much more my brand because ... too much exposure, or using it flippantly, bothers me. And in relationships, I take its use very seriously (so to say).

In that light, this situation could be seen as me "thiking" that Fe was my dual seeking function, and not really knowing how to deal with it. Again, going back to my updated understanding of things, I see my take on "proper Fe use" fits in well with INFjs (particularly the more reserved, Fi subtype ones), as they only really get or express emotions when it "really means something".

Fe valuing types seem to use Fe as a means to spark relationships, emotionally appealing atmospheres first. For me, I need to have a relationship developed in order for emotions to have significant meaning to me.

I can't stand it.
It totally destroys everything
But at the same time it seems the only way to a close personal relationship.

I have developed a close relationship with an INFj, however, which is not that way. But that is through maturity and understanding, and less of raw socionics compatibility. The INFj, of course, is spectacular in terms of my mercenary standards, and as such qualified.

What do you mean when you say it destroys everything?

Hmm. "Destroys everything". I *think* what I was referring to at the time was that such emotional involvement is no good for me, particularly before a real relationship is established. I think I made this post, as I said, when I was still "sure" or "pretty sure" about being an LII, so, my reference to an EII there is kind of interesting (perhaps it was socionics compatibility, which I disregarded at the time).

So, yes, at the time, I think "destroying everything" had something to do with getting emotionally involved and playing on a deep emotional level, in terms of emotoinal expression (from my partner and from me). In retrospect, I believe that my experiences with Fe dominants were problematic because they constantly left me feeling drained (or, "destroyed") - referring to being emotionally drained; what they were wanting from me I couldn't give them easily.


To that end, EIIs are so much more appealing because they don't require that. For some time though, because of my early experinces with Fe dominants, I kept assuming that everyone wanted me to act like Fe dominants did... so, I don't think I had the full appreciation of what EIIs have (in terms of dominance and being more placid), until more recently. In comparison, I don't ever feel "destroyed" or "overhwhelmed by Fe" from an EII, nor do I feel overwhelmed by Fi from EIIs.

, however, 'appears' as the sweetest thing. Everybody uses it in different ways, and everyone will react to their dual-seeking function regardless of how it is used. One important aspect of duality is someone who uses your dual seeking function very well, in just the right way. ESFjs IME are the best at that, and as described in the "what does it feel like to have someone use your dual seeking..." thread, it can have devastating impact(s).

Can someone please explain to me the different ways is used by different people? How would a person recognize various uses/manifestations of ?

Hmm. I'm trying to remember what I was trying to say here.
Again, at the time I made this, I was confused about what your dual seeking functionw as supposed to be like, so, you may want to just disregard everything I said there.

Although, it you recall what I just wrote earlier in this post -- about how I like how an INFj uses Fe better, compared to an ESFj -- it may work. At the time, I think I equated Fe (meaning, emotional connection and vibrance), with love. That is somewhat based off a simplistic and wrong understanding, at the time, of what Fe was.

Basically, I was associating Fe with the feeling I had when I felt really close to someone. That "feeling" now, as I understand it, isn't really "functionally related", and I don't particualrly think it is Fe or Fi.


I think my comments about "devastating impacts" is also telling that I didn't understand things at the time. It's probably not a good idea when you feel "devastated" by your "dual seeking function". Again, I believe I inherently see in terms of how an INFj would use it, which, in terms of a real, personal relationship - is used with great care -- it has meaning. This is not to say that when an ESFj or ENFj uses it it's diffferent or "less", but it's with a slightly different focus. dominants feel responsible for the mood of the people they are around more so than dominants (among many other differences)... so again, how an EII will use or deal with Fe is different. And how they use it is much better for me, I believe.


Hopefully that makes sense, but it's very complicated because I was writing in a much different mindset at the time. I tried to explain things and connect "then" and "now", but I'm not sure how useful it is or clear it came across.

[Nevero]

That sounds exactly like something I would say. Introversion and FiSe superego make it really hard to approach people, even if you want to. It's always "what if I say the wrong thing?" or "what if he/she doesn't like me?". But by the time you think it all through the opportunity is gone, and all the thinking just makes you lose confidence more. Spontaneity in communication (especially with strangers) is something I'm really striving for these days.

would you say that subtypes make all the difference then, that Ti-INTj is more likely to miss out on these opportunities than a Ne-INTj?

[The Ineffable]

Yes they can, just like the sitting dude:

[Suz]

It may seem counterintuitive, but an LII MUST initiate the relationship, even if it takes several weeks or months. Of course, the question is kinda loaded. I don't like to think of relationships as having a beginning or an end. It's very stressful to try and judge our relationship with someone and it only makes us uneasy. It's very relieving to think of it in terms. I feel more at ease around someone if their emotions are right in my face. Like the previous metaphor, if being in a social situation as an LII is like walking into a play that I haven't been casted in, then talking to an ESE is like someone running up to me with some cue cards and a comfy chair.

Ultimately, it's about control. If I ask a girl out, it's me who made the decision and if I screw it up or she doesn't like me, I can just say I should be more careful, or I should just be myself, etc. If I ask the girl it's because I'm interested in getting to know her.
If a girl asks me out I'll probably go along with it, but only to be nice and I probably wont be very interested. A long time ago in high school I went out with a girl that asked me. She was a total bitch (ESI in retrospect) and I just wasn't interested. After a few days I had a friend tell her I didn't want to go out anymore and she got really mad. Anyway, it's a bad idea to ask the LII out because he/she probably wont be interested. It's best to let things flow naturally, or somehow trick the LII into thinking it's not a date, or something like that. It's hard to explain, we are confusing people. Remember, we are passive to so it might be the case that if you like an LII and hang around him/her for long enough and provide enough and it might just turn into a relationship on its own. Don't think in conventional terms. Touch is very important. If you touch the LII and it is well received... mission accomplished. I can either spaz and reel from an unwelcome touch, or melt into a pile of babbling goo from the right touch.

A great movie about an LII with lady trouble: "Lars and the Real Girl". It really parallels my own life in a way, even down to the way he doesn't like being touched, though I will say that I've never dated a mannequin.

This is actually how i see it as well (everything described here). And ive used the touch thing before to gauge someone's interest. He was probably LII too.

[tejing]

There's a bit of a paradox here. In theory we like it when other people initiate social interaction, but the way most people do so steps on our super-ego functions, and we hate that.
So:

• Initiate, but don't push. At all. Make sure that we not only feel free to make our own decisions, but that the atmosphere will stay comfortable whatever that decision may be. If we pull away or shut down, you probably hit this one.
• Avoid formulaic relationship stuff, or at least, if you do it, make sure we can tell that the "etiquette" of the situation isn't important to you.
• Don't try too hard to define the status of the relationship... just let it grow naturally.

[The Ineffable]

Talking of pushing, there's this saying of an LII friend of mine when you come to him with a proposal: "don't push me cause I get dizzy". LIIs need to think out thoroughtly everything, analyze, first. They don't do a thing spontaneously, unless they already, coincidentally thought it out and it is clear to them or had it in mind already. But if it's new, "hold on, hold on!"

[ClownsandEntropy]

Talking of pushing, there's this saying of an LII friend of mine when you come to him with a proposal: "don't push me cause I get dizzy". LIIs need to think out thoroughtly everything, analyze, first. They don't do a thing spontaneously, unless they already, coincidentally thought it out and it is clear to them or had it in mind already. But if it's new, "hold on, hold on!"

Haha, oh I love that! I usually say "Hmm... that's interesting. I'll think about that." when the person is clearly expecting a rebuttal or for me to agree with them. I just don't say anything and tell them I need to think it through cos I hadn't thought about that before.

[wacey]

Talking of pushing, there's this saying of an LII friend of mine when you come to him with a proposal: "don't push me cause I get dizzy". LIIs need to think out thoroughtly everything, analyze, first. They don't do a thing spontaneously, unless they already, coincidentally thought it out and it is clear to them or had it in mind already. But if it's new, "hold on, hold on!"

This drives me nuts about them. EII are similar in this regard. An old roommate of mine probably LII would just freeze up if I came into his room and said hey do you want to go for a hike with me right now? He often seems to have to think about it. So eventually I learned to ask him a few days before something like..."hey I might go for a hike this weekend you should come". So when the time came to be *spontaneous* I could usually expect a "For sure- where are we going?!"

[The Ineffable]

EII are similar in this regard.

Oh yes!... What annoys me about EIIs is that it doesn't seem they have something to settle something in their minds, the same thing will be tomorrow and a year from now (to me). On the other hand, unlike LIIs, I kind of expect that from them, they are inertial, so it is not a big suprise: any proposal to them is more of a routine "oh, yeah, yeah, sure", you know? Like I said, LIIs surprise me sometimes with immediate readiness when not expected, as well as resilience when everything seems clear. :\

I am afraid, though, your case is not that illustrative for this behavior of theirs. I mean when I think how busy I am for a while now (sports, dog and whatnot obligations) it is hard for me to escape the schedule for such spontaneous pursuits and ask people make the proposal in advance. Please don't make me an LII. On the other hand, true, in most cases I take the decision on the spot, even when the action is delayed or scheduled (though there is a possibility I change my mind if something intervenes).

[Froody Blue Gem]

I have gotten better with taking initiative when it comes to just the platonic friendship level. I think there should be mutual agreement romanitcally but as a whole in any type of relationship, I prefer the other person to take the lead. I don't quite know how to go about being the leader or the initiator of the tango without messing up. Admittedly, there is a fear of rejection there, and knowing how to go about it is just not natural for me. There is also the aspect that the other person might not be on the same page as me if we are talking romantically, and I don't want to force anything on them.

On the flipside, I've been in many situations where people wanted a relationship with me, but I didn't feel the same way, it stinks having to be the rejecter too. People may also hear yes, or it's still a possibility if you are not clear about the no. I know that it's frightening on some level for most people. I've been in situations where I've gotten rejected, and it takes me a long long time to get over it-- sometimes I never fully recover.

[Rebelondeck]

I have almost always made the first move toward introductions but I much preferred women to take the lead in progressing a relationship any further. Most introductions, I initially treated like a project so was never really disappointed when rejected; I may have reflected on any errors that I might have made but easily moved on. With respect to relationships getting amorous, I've never ever initiated that phase because in my generation, I thought that women had much more to lose........

a.k.a. I/O

[Lord Pixel]

Most people, sure

But types with Fi in their super-ego are afraid of people getting close to them while people with Fe in their super-ego are afraid of beng alone.

Is this a thing, this is definitely true for me.

[Lord Pixel]

I'm not afraid of initial rejection at all. In the past I more afraid of abandonment, and now I don't know know if I'm afraid of that kind of stuff or not.

How the hell? Are you human?

[Adam Strange]

How the hell? Are you human?

I'm not afraid of initial rejection, either, but I'm making no claims to be human.

[Lord Pixel]

Okay... new question about INTjs... well, and I guess about any type as well.

Do you think it's much easier to communicate feelings through affection rather than through words, particularly in the beginning stages of a relationship?

I would prefer this, but it could get weird. I feel like you have to really feel the situation out to see when it's ok to be physically affectionate, but it's so much easier to convey how I feel physically than to find a non awkward way to say "I like you".

[Lord Pixel]

I'm not afraid of initial rejection, either, but I'm making no claims to be human.

Well I always thought you were like a cyborg or something.

But in all honesty this is like someone telling me they don't breath oxygen.

[Joy]

How the hell? Are you human?

It just means I'm not compatible with the person. That's good info. Also, I would typically make a move before I was super invested to see if things could progress in that direction. If so, green light to head in that direction and see what's up. If not, time to switch direction.

I'm a lot different these days though. I don't follow that program by default anymore.

[The Reality Denialist]

This stuff is heavily Fi. I suppose LII's can learn to handle it.
ILE's just waddle in either by having a good time [even just by themselves] or roasting others and therefore need someone to tell them "follow me you weirdo and be innocently offensive, please".

[FreelancePoliceman]

Assuming my type is right:

It depends on what’s being initiated. I’ve always disliked mental passivity, in myself and others, and I tend to recognize that if I don’t act at some time, I may not get a chance in the future. So if there’s a girl I want to spend time with, and I wouldn’t see her regularly otherwise, I often directly ask to spend time together. I wouldn’t say rejection bothers me much in the immediate sense. Over a longer period of time I might brood over it and wonder if I was acting embarrassingly, but this doesn’t tend to affect my behavior in the moment itself. I have no problem, for instance, asking someone to dance.

When it comes to anything involving feelings it’s more difficult. I have never been the one to initiate attempts at making a relationship status official, and I generally don’t talk much about my feelings toward the other person, though I do try to express — usually non-verbally — that I like them. Incidentally, though I’m usually playful and joking when in a good mood, I’ve never flirted, at least not until after I’m in a relationship. Not out of principle or anything, but because the idea wouldn’t occur to me if I actually felt anything toward someone, it wouldn’t come naturally to me, and I wouldn’t know how to respond if it were directed toward me.

I can’t express or formulate certain kinds of feelings well. My former girlfriend mentioned that I seemed closed off emotionally. I’m not sure I’d agree with that, but in any case, my difficulty expressing them is probably related to why I have difficulty flirting.