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Thread: How to argue with ESIs-ISFjs

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe
    Can you really have a logically inconsistent system which is true? And what does "true" here mean?
    You can't, but this misses the point. I'm saying that a person who is less logically constrained may believe something that a more logical person says is impossible and still be right.
    True, you don't have to actively use logic in order to arrive at a correct conclusion. This is pretty closely related to what FDG said in the previous post. However you have no real means of evaluating the correctness of your conclusion unless you can analyze it with logic. So it becomes a belief. Belief can be correct but can also can be incorrect. There is no reliable way of measuring that except logic. I would think people learn to trust their beliefs if they find them to bring them practical material or immaterial benefits (which can be seen as indirectly prooving the correctness of their belief). In science world this is not acceptable. However in business world it is. If your ideas bring success to the company and increase the bottom line it "prooves" that your ideas are "correct" without a need to formally logically explain them. This is prolly related to Ti vs Te value difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by jsb'07
    My mom and sis are ISFj. They are easy to live with. This type often is very hardworking. But they lack a bit logical thinking. They don't like to analize. So they expect that others will explain things instead of them. They really appriciate when someone explains to them in easy steps, how to get done the work they are doing at the moment. Often times a man with golden hands is the someone they concider to be a perfect match. Which off course can many times make them fall into ISTps.
    I'd say they mostly lack confidence in their thinking more so than capability - more often than not they're right in the logical steps, but they are not sure about the rightness.
    Some types don't require something to be logical for it to be true, (and it is not always the case that things which are true are logical) which in my opinion results in this kind of thinking (being able to think logically but not being confident about it).
    Careful, dj, you're starting to sound like mikemex.
    Why would you compliment mikemex?
    You're missing the point.

    Given that you believe yourself to be ISFj, I can't help being reminded of "Fi logics".

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe
    Can you really have a logically inconsistent system which is true? And what does "true" here mean?
    You can't, but this misses the point. I'm saying that a person who is less logically constrained may believe something that a more logical person says is impossible and still be right.
    True, you don't have to actively use logic in order to arrive at a correct conclusion. This is pretty closely related to what FDG said in the previous post. However you have no real means of evaluating the correctness of your conclusion unless you can analyze it with logic. So it becomes a belief. Belief can be correct but can also can be incorrect. There is no reliable way of measuring that except logic. I would think people learn to trust their beliefs if they find them to bring them practical material or immaterial benefits (which can be seen as indirectly prooving the correctness of their belief). In science world this is not acceptable. However in business world it is. If your ideas bring success to the company and increase the bottom line it "prooves" that your ideas are "correct" without a need to formally logically explain them. This is prolly related to Ti vs Te value difference.
    This is true because there is no way to formally predict the multiplied outcome of all the action of all the inviduals in society and so it is impossible to predict which idea is more "correct" in terms of marketshare via logic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    You're missing the point.

    Given that you believe yourself to be ISFj, I can't help being reminded of "Fi logics".
    I didn't miss the point at all. What I said was apparently too subtle for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    But mom really, how can I show the value of things to ISFJs?
    What I have seen from couple of (male) ENTJs is that they are very open to be corrected. Spontaneously saying things like I may say or do insensitive things but if you tell me what to do instead I am willing to change. ISFJs appreciate that. Also ENTjs is a kind of visionary type, but these visions tend to be of more personal nature, some arty/farty project and/or weird and often factually incorrect opinions that holds some special significance to them. Sharing these beliefs in an air of fragile seriousness (Ni is the function that allows you to believe in shit as Transigent memorably put it) seems to create bonds of intimacy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    You're missing the point.

    Given that you believe yourself to be ISFj, I can't help being reminded of "Fi logics".
    I didn't miss the point at all. What I said was apparently too subtle for you.
    OK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    ISFj is the perfect psychiatric hospital nurse, like the one in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

    If you want that kind of company...
    Mike could you explain that?
    Well, my brother is disabled and I did go to visit him to the hospital almost daily these last weeks. The first day I saw this nurse I recalled that movie...

    ISFj are good people... except that, like ISTj, they can only see one side of things.
    I would say this is true for every type in regard to matters of the superego block; for example an ISFj has no problem seeing both sides of an ethical argument, however he/she won't be as easily able to see both sides of a logical argument.
    In theory yes, in practice not. Not all functions are the same. Some functions are "widening" while others are "narrowing". Narrowing functions are Ti Te Se Si while widening functions are Ne Ni Fi Fe.

    For example, Ti operates on simple statements, so things must be decomposed (="noise" removed) in order to work properly. Ne, on the other side, "assembles" complex systems from simple statements.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    ISFj is the perfect psychiatric hospital nurse, like the one in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

    If you want that kind of company...
    Mike could you explain that?
    Well, my brother is disabled and I did go to visit him to the hospital almost daily these last weeks. The first day I saw this nurse I recalled that movie...

    ISFj are good people... except that, like ISTj, they can only see one side of things.
    I would say this is true for every type in regard to matters of the superego block; for example an ISFj has no problem seeing both sides of an ethical argument, however he/she won't be as easily able to see both sides of a logical argument.
    In theory yes, in practice not. Not all functions are the same. Some functions are "widening" while others are "narrowing". Narrowing functions are Ti Te Se Si while widening functions are Ne Ni Fi Fe.

    For example, Ti operates on simple statements, so things must be decomposed (="noise" removed) in order to work properly. Ne, on the other side, "assembles" complex systems from simple statements.
    Ok, makes sense: you basically say that well-defined functions are narrowing, whereas not-well-defined functions are widening; thus, my reasoning is correct only for ISFjs and does not apply to ISTjs, right?
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    maybe its something to do with having an isfj mother, but i agree w/ FDG on this one. in my experience isfj's dont like to make decisions, they like other people to make the decision so they can go along with it, they will speak up if they dont want to do a certain activity so otherwise just make plans and have a good time. most of the time they will enjoy themselves as long as you are enjoying yourself and including them in the experience.

    as far as arguing with them, you're not going to win, that is if by win you mean convince them that you are right. they are always right in their own eyes, and if they dont feel that they have won the argument they will sulk. the basic strategy i use when fighting with my mother is to stick up for myself until she runs out of steam and leaves.
    the problem with this aproach is that it probably wouldnt be a good idea when dating someone, it works well in the family situation because they arent going to leave. however, they dont forgive very easily when they are hurt, so i would be careful in the beginning stages of a relationship or you will lose them.

    and before anyone questions my experience on this, like i said i have an isfj mother, i have 21 years experience arguing with them
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    Quote Originally Posted by timeofurlife42
    maybe its something to do with having an isfj mother, but i agree w/ FDG on this one. in my experience isfj's dont like to make decisions, they like other people to make the decision so they can go along with it, they will speak up if they dont want to do a certain activity so otherwise just make plans and have a good time. most of the time they will enjoy themselves as long as you are enjoying yourself and including them in the experience.

    as far as arguing with them, you're not going to win, that is if by win you mean convince them that you are right. they are always right in their own eyes, and if they dont feel that they have won the argument they will sulk. the basic strategy i use when fighting with my mother is to stick up for myself until she runs out of steam and leaves.
    the problem with this aproach is that it probably wouldnt be a good idea when dating someone, it works well in the family situation because they arent going to leave. however, they dont forgive very easily when they are hurt, so i would be careful in the beginning stages of a relationship or you will lose them.

    and before anyone questions my experience on this, like i said i have an isfj mother, i have 21 years experience arguing with them
    Well you are taking an approach like, the ISFj is necessarily less attached to the relationship than you and so she'll leave. Let's say both people equally care about it, then they usually try to avoid the conflict by saying..."look, I think I'm always right, you think you're always right, so let's just not even get started or it'll never end, ok?"
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Don't argue?

    If you really really need to, maybe you should try the "endurance arguing" card. It may last many hours, though, so be ready to waste an entire day.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Either don't argue, or wage a protracted war of attrition on them by being the more stubborn party (this applies to IJs in general IME).

    Oh, a 3rd option if you really want to shut the person down, is to be the bigger asshole and lace your counterarguments with caustic sarcasm and ridicule that makes them feel stupid. Then they learn never to argue with you again.

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    you can kind of be annoying when you argue -- inflammatory and all, have you considered a different approach to the situation?

    I mean what are you arguing about, how is he being illogical and what are you trying to gain out of arguing.... are you trying to persuade them, defend your case, discuss something controversial, or just flame them for the fun of it... each motive has a different strategy I would think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by octo View Post
    Or at least I think he's ESI. Either way, he's, um, special. He doesn't seem to have a coherent/consistent train of thought (and a range of people who have talked to him think so too), and he keeps trying to convince me/others of his argument by reassuring them that it's not their fault etc.

    He generally has good intentions and general ideas, but then he jumps to rigid, one-size-fits-all ways of implementing them that are both illogical and impractical.

    It's really difficult to argue with someone whose thoughts aren't coherent. Any tips?
    Ask Maritsa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by octo View Post
    Have you considered that if you were a fair bit smarter, you'd feel less threatened ("annoyed") by good arguments?


    ^How was that, Ashton?
    I'm being serious are you referring to me or someone else, my advice could actually come in handy because I tend to see things much differently than you do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by octo View Post
    Have you considered that if you were a fair bit smarter, you'd feel less threatened ("annoyed") by good arguments?

    ^How was that, Ashton?
    Decent, but if you're arguing with an ESI, it's best to come off as detached and coldly impersonal about it as possible. That rattles them more deeply.

    What's an example of an argument this guy makes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Decent, but if you're arguing with an ESI, it's best to come off as detached and coldly impersonal about it as possible. That rattles them more deeply.

    What's an example of an argument this guy makes?
    Yea I agree with this, I wasn't really threatened by what she said, it was kind of cute and snappy, and jokingly arrogant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    Yea I agree with this, I wasn't really threatened by what she said, it was kind of cute and snappy, and jokingly arrogant.
    Lol, yeah it came off kind of playful to me too (though that approach can work well on some people).

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    Quote Originally Posted by octo View Post
    So... in other words, convince another ESI of my case?
    It's not really like you convince ESIs (especially the males, god forbid) of stuff by presenting a long argument with a logical backing, in my experience. It's more akin to inception and it has to be done slowly and sneakily, as if they think it was compeltely their own idea.

    Otherwise going for a prolonged, incessant fight is the only way to change their external behavior, I'm afraid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekpyrosos View Post
    Ask Maritsa.
    Yep.

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    ESIs seem the worst debate counterparts for us, the SCIENTIFIC minds.

    Play it stupid a la Socratic method. I really seriously suggest this. They tend to say if they are let to express their self-contradicting views. The key is the questions set.

    Depending on the level of stubborness; he might not agree with you nor admit any flaws nor even correct his exact misuse of concepts in his statements, but you can usually make him feel stupid and/or make yourself meet smart. That is incentive enough for me at least.
    And that stubborness can sometimes be countered with a humble demeanor.

    In my opinion, you're intelligent, consistent and, although I hate the word, objective.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athww View Post
    Sounds like ESIs have a pretty huge dumbfuck potential in general.
    The catch is, ESIs aren't generally terribly confident in the real of ideas. Thus the situation described by octo isn't really frequent.
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    I cannot imagine even wanting to argue with an ISFj. I could probably argue with my brother, a very hard-headed ESFp, but there is absolutely no point. Instead, I offer alternative solutions that are better. Otherwise, its a huge waste of both of our time, energy, and emotions.

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    Play dumb and get them to argue your point for you. IOW, ask retarded questions as though you don't already know the answers, getting them to "explain" to you, and lead them through your questions to understand "on their own." It takes patience, and you have to know what to ask to get them thinking the direction you want them to, but on some people it's easier to take that route than directly arguing with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    Play dumb and get them to argue your point for you. IOW, ask retarded questions as though you don't already know the answers, getting them to "explain" to you, and lead them through your questions to understand "on their own." It takes patience, and you have to know what to ask to get them thinking the direction you want them to, but on some people it's easier to take that route than directly arguing with them.
    Like I said, use Socratic method.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    The catch is, ESIs aren't generally terribly confident in the real of ideas. Thus the situation described by octo isn't really frequent.
    mY thoughts exactlY. i'll argue facts, and then tangiblY try and prove them. but i'm more open with ideas, i need time to let them settle usuallY but i alwaYs have mY own opinion. i just think arguing over the intangible is exhausting and if the other partY is set in stone one waY then i don't consider it worth mY time to change what people think.
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    Argeuing with an ISxj on spiritual matters can be like taunting the gorilla behind the glass at the zoo. Of course, make sure there is a actually something physically separating you...

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    Don't argue with an ESI. You both get dirty, and the ESI likes it.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    Argeuing with an ISxj on spiritual matters can be like taunting the gorilla behind the glass at the zoo. Of course, make sure there is a actually something physically separating you...
    What is this spiritual thing you speak of?

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    Well here is my two cents, if the person is actually an ESI then the most effective manner to debate them is by using facts and Ti. Do not try to use Fi. Let me elaborate...

    Some people argue or debate with different techniques, some will say use a tactic of pointing out you mis-spelled something. This is not really a strong point, it doesn't win an argument or debate but it may irritate them which causes them to loose their cool, give in to anger and make a fool of themselves and maybe loose track of their point or say something careless in anger. Using a tactic like this is effective in tandem with say someone who you have already called stupid or illogical (Depending on how classy you argue/debate) and they are defending themselves. It's especially effective on individuals with a low confidence on with their intellect. If a person recently has won a nobel prize and is recognized around the world as a smart and logical person and sometimes is criticized for being too logical or robotic, calling them illogical is not likely to get under their skin, but rather balance out their fears of being too logical.

    So lets look at three principles -- how the person reacts to what you say based on confidence, timing of what you say, and their stance. In the above example I'm referring to using the spelling trick is effective on someone who is slightly insecure about their intellect (confidence), someone who is on the defensive about this (their stance), and at a time in which their irritation is mounting to a climax (timing).

    With the ESI let's examine these three aspects. First, confidence... the ESI has their PoLR in Ti and is generally weak in terms of intuition and thinking. So capitalizing on this, rather than emotional manipulation is key. Trying to make an ESI feel detached from the group and humiliated generally won't work as they are confident with Fi. It is however effective with some thinkers, say SLE's and ILE's will not appreciate alienation because it's a PoLR hit. Also this is more complex than calling an ESI stupid... that is not a Ti PoLR hit, because stupid is a character judgement about someone... it could be ethical in nature. A Ti PoLR is them being confronted with their inability to think logically and systematically. Pointing out something they say and placing it under logical scrutiny, trying to rephrase their attempts at logical assertions in a way that exposes a fallacy. For it to be effective it has to make them and everyone around them kind of go "Ohhhh..... yea that does sound kind of stupid when you phrase it like that lol".... this is a PoLR hit. It's very effective if it's short and simple and makes them look stupid or hypocritical. They are likely to react to this with outrage and anger but they will be unable to logically counter it, they will sort of stumble over the subject and instead try to appeal to the humanity or ethics of the situation. A good example would be an ESI who is outraged at an ethical issue in business but unable to fully see the logical framework of economics beneath the situation, when exposed to this framework, they may feel at first angry at it, combating it from the standpoint of how it's heartless and inhumane but fully realizing their own illogical assertions. They will want to make a logical point but will stumble over it, feeling as though they are unable to articulate what to them is truth, but truth in an ethical sense.

    Being able to master this PoLR hit will likely make you an unstoppable force of nature in dealing with the ESI but also kind of dick or sociopath.

    Lastly this PoLR hit must be employed with the timing of a master duelist, small jabs when they let their guard down for a split second, and the coup de grace when they open themselves up. In order to do this you must pay attention to their stance.... if they begin to go on the defensive, this is the best time to push.... if they begin to go on the offensive, try to segway as fast as possible back to something that will place them on the defensive while maintaining indifference to their criticisms, playing to the crowd is useful when people are around... keep your focus not only on you and the other person but the crowd also. When you feel like they are in retreat and defensive, this is when you push the most.

    This is the best advice on how to win an arguement or debate and if you master timing, reading the other person's stance (and the audience), and looking for their weakness you will win everytime... but you'll also kind of be a huge dick in my eyes.

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    HLD: ESIs have Ne polr, not Ti.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    HLD: ESIs have Ne polr, not Ti.
    Ahh right you are lol, so I was thinking of SEE for some reason, um so yea NeTi is basically the PoLR hit.



    Edit: wow not doing great today.... lol
    Last edited by male; 03-07-2012 at 03:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    Ahh right you are lol, so I was thinking of SEI for some reason, um so yea NeTi is basically the PoLR hit
    SEIs have Te PoLR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozz View Post
    SEIs have Te PoLR.
    wow.... fixed lol

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    A PoLR hit (well, more like "every weak function hit") for ESIs is generally much simpler than that ime, HLD. You just have to talk in very theorethical and abstract terms, quickly lacing together a variety of thinking patterns. The ensemble might very well be completely meaningless, actually, it will usually be completely meaningless and useless - but they'll feel bad. I don't do it purposefully but I've seen it happen.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  36. #76
    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Introverted Fi as a base function may have incoherent thoughts; this is because what is external expression of thought (Te) is in the person's subconscious. They, like myself, are only really capable of reacting to certain things, sometimes intensely so. I've had a lot of good practice in engaging in calming my emotional reactions and seeing the problem as though it's not some personal attach on my moral compass, then what begins to happen is that I approach the problem as though I were a third party, in helping the Maritsa understand what the issue is from many perspectives, then helping her come up with many possible scenarios or situations in how to deal with it; this way, I'm not attacking the person in front of me as though they were not trying to be helpful, because I've had to tell myself several times, that most people don't really have bad personal intentions towards you.

    My duals have taught me to think and approach a problem in an external logical manner; they are great at removing their personal and subjective emotions when solving other people's problems and offering up many solutions. Taking this advice back personally, it helps the Fi base type to calm down, which is the most important part, because fueled emotions and deep seated passions can cause a tunnel vision, and suppression of thinking logically about the person and the situation at hand.

    In the following thread, you will observe my posts in reaction, not thought of what is presented, and my reaction stems from my subjective values, or outlook on this matter as well as my judgment of how this matter should be:

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...865#post829865
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 03-07-2012 at 11:05 AM.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  37. #77
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    edit 2: btw, what's your (temporary/current) take on this trait?
    i think it has a lot of potential, which is a euphemism for saying it's useless because any potential it has is just potential and none of it is being realized.

    but, if Viktor Gulenko is right about the way ID functions work, this trait is to some extent underrated. it is more structural than has up to this point been supposed. it parallels static/dynamic in certain sense. it could be taken as a basis for its own set of "temperaments" if only the proper interpretation was known, Aristocrat/Democrat being the counterpart dichotomy in that instance. but this is pie in the sky talk.

  38. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    A PoLR hit (well, more like "every weak function hit") for ESIs is generally much simpler than that ime, HLD. You just have to talk in very theorethical and abstract terms, quickly lacing together a variety of thinking patterns. The ensemble might very well be completely meaningless, actually, it will usually be completely meaningless and useless - but they'll feel bad. I don't do it purposefully but I've seen it happen.
    Yea this makes sense, and I think probably happens a lot with out it being intentional, what do you think?

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    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Introverted Fi as a base function may have incoherent thoughts; this is because what is external expression of thought (Te) is in the person's subconscious.
    What's internal expression of thought? Just adding more words to a sentence doesn't make it more sentient.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    [...]because I've had to tell myself several times, that most people don't really have bad personal intentions towards you.
    You have to keep telling that to yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    My duals have taught me to think and approach a problem in an external logical manner; they are great at removing their personal and subjective emotions when solving other people's problems and offering up many solutions. Taking this advice back personally, it helps the Fi base type to calm down, which is the most important part, because fueled emotions and deep seated passions can cause a tunnel vision, and suppression of thinking logically about the person and the situation at hand.
    @to all
    How is Ti different from this and why doesn't it help a Fi base? How would the Fi base react?
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Local Hero Saberstorm's Avatar
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    My closest friend is an Se-ESI-C - they are like mafia kingpins crossed with Roman Catholic Bishops. You don't argue with them. You tranquilize them. If not, you must unlock their hidden potential for vengence and set them off on a tangent that somehow triangulates something you support. Think rouge elephants, polar bears, or sleeping dragons. Really, stay away from them. They are quite obdurate (yes, go look it up! It is a good word for them!)

    The Fi-ESI will tend to retreat from discussions. They are quite soft and will not discuss things that they strongly oppose. They will then regroup in another room with their supporters, and (sometimes quite haughtly) make an announcement concerning their position, only to retreat again if confronted. (Think Barack Obama.)

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