Extinguishment/Contrary Relations: stories and experiences

[Ms. Kensington]

Sometimes ENTjs are so cute.

[Mea]

INFps are cuter!

[Jimbean]

INTp's are freaken awsome!

[raisonpure]

Sometimes ENTjs are so cute.

Yeah =/ My ex-friend had been angry for more than 30 hours over being slighted? Or being unable to find a friend of hers, not sure. The result was the following blog entry:

Damn... What the hell am I so angry for?
I've been angry for thirty something hours
Hmph, this is exhausting
It's not good for my body, indeed
Let's not be angry, it's none of my business anyway
(swear word)... What am I angry for?
Hmph, my life is very precious
Besides, isn't it just an trivial matter?

Hoooooo......

Okay, I've forgotten it all

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmph <- a hmph from out of nowhere

I thought that was totally cute... It's also cute how she wants everyone to be concerned for her (attention whore at heart) and gloats at the knowledge of having secret admirers. Ok, except for some shocking jokes, I find almost everything about them cute

ENFps... Hard to think "cute!" or "awesome!" when they've made me feel pwned just by studying next to me. More like "hell, I wish she'd stop looking over at my work like she's comparing my intelligence to hers" and "damn, even if she's a genius at solving the most complex of problems, does she have to make it known to the rest of the world? It's not like everyone is as gifted as she is"

[Blaze]

yeah i like intp's; i don't have that much trouble getting along with them, despite the "contrary" relation.

[Joy]

My contrary is my favorite type from my opposing quadra. They're great unless you live with them.

Super egos aren't too bad, either, unless you spend a lot of time around them or they are emotionally invested in you. Ugh. Quasi's are interesting but frustrating.

[Blaze]

yeah i like super-ego's too. esfp's are a blast! yes it's easier for me to get along with contraries than quasi's.

[Expat]

yes it's easier for me to get along with contraries than quasi's.

I agree (and it has nothing to do with your being my quasi, too).

Of the opposing quadra, to me, in decreasing order of ease, superego> contrary > quasi > conflictor.

[FDG]

The reason why contraries get along well is obvious. Each other reacts to the other one in the way he/she expects from the dual, that is, either "you are great you could do even better" "why do I suck so much" etc etc...this way a "superficial" interaction that doesn't require actual handling of anything "concrete" but just, let's say, emotional support, works wonders.

We could say that for example the ENTj is as emotion-creating and as positivist as an ESFj and thus he/she will be able to "entertain" and "rev up" the INTj even if on the long run the ENTj cannot keep up with the necessary Fe.

[implied]

The reason why contraries get along well is obvious. Each other reacts to the other one in the way he/she expects from the dual, that is, either "you are great you could do even better" "why do I suck so much" etc etc...this way a "superficial" interaction that doesn't require actual handling of anything "concrete" but just, let's say, emotional support, works wonders.

We could say that for example the ENTj is as emotion-creating and as positivist as an ESFj and thus he/she will be able to "entertain" and "rev up" the INTj even if on the long run the ENTj cannot keep up with the necessary Fe.

agreed. i nearly posted about this the other day. which is also a reason i'm slightly against the "you're great and can do even better!"/etc. typings since they can lead to ESFjs as ENTjs and ISFps as INTps if used without anything else to back them up.


i recall cone once saying he sort of had a thing for really bitchy INTj women.

at any rate i'm sort of in the boat with cone where i think the bitchy INTjs can be hot albeit irritating/nervewracking sometimes.

[Exodus]

I've realized that I had mistyped a lot of ENTjs as INTjs. I tend to get along quite well with them, except when they try to force Fi on me. My favorite teacher is ENTj, btw.

[Exodus]

The reason why contraries get along well is obvious. Each other reacts to the other one in the way he/she expects from the dual, that is, either "you are great you could do even better" "why do I suck so much" etc etc...this way a "superficial" interaction that doesn't require actual handling of anything "concrete" but just, let's say, emotional support, works wonders.

We could say that for example the ENTj is as emotion-creating and as positivist as an ESFj and thus he/she will be able to "entertain" and "rev up" the INTj even if on the long run the ENTj cannot keep up with the necessary Fe.

Uh, construct-creating.

Another thing: I think Superegos and Contraries actually can get along really well, way better than Conflictors and Quasi-Identicals. I get along better with ENTjs than ISTjs, for example.

[Danielle]

I would like to request that there be more discussions about the intertype relations, besides duality. To me, intertype relations are the heart of Socionics, and personally it is impossible for me to understand Socionics without understanding the intertype relations better. There are many I only have a vague understanding of because there isn't much information out there about them. If there could be detailed discussions of what is happening with the functions in these situations, that would turn me on in particular. The Wiki needs help on this topic.

Right now, I would like to know more about Relations of Extinguishment, or Contrary Relations. For some reason, lately I've been noticing ENFjs in my life a lot more. So there is the potential for me to understand this one better. All I can do is describe how I relate to ENFjs, but I can't connect it to Socionics. Also, I suspect my parents have a contrary relationship, and it would help to know more about it because then I might finally be able to nail down my father's type.

I will describe my interactions with ENFjs: They do almost all of the talking. They encourage me to talk but every time I say anything they use it to launch into another long segment of their own. I usually ask them a lot of questions because they seem to love telling me what they know and telling me about the interactions they've had with others. Very, very rarely do they ask me any questions. I often feel like I am being lectured by them, and one in particular is always saying "I'm not lecturing you", even though that is exactly what I feel like he is doing. For example, he wants to see me at religious services more often, and he goes on about how it would benefit me to be there. But the way in which he describes the benefits aren't actually related to me. He describes what the benefits have been for him. In fact, it seems that when I am having a conversation with an ENFj, they are mostly talking about something to do with them. But I get the feeling they really think this will be beneficial to me.

I usually find the conversations to be interesting. They have a lot to say and they say it well. I could happily attend a lecture given by an ENFj. I don't find conversing with them to be exhausting per se, just not really stimulating once it's over.

Another thing I have noticed is we seem to look at health concerns differently. I've known three ENFjs well. One I just talked to for a couple of hours tonight. All 3 of them panic about stuff health-wise or they completely disregard their health. One or the other. In conversations with all 3 they talk about health a lot, but usually as if bad health is some sort of obstacle. To me, ill health is a sign that the body needs some more respect, and I take sickness in stride. They also like to stay constantly busy and none of them like to relax. Those are the only things I can directly connect to Socionics.

As for my parents, I know my mother is an ESFp and I suspect my father is an ISFp, but I am not sure. I'd like to understand these types of relations better so I can know what to look for or whatever.

[Joy]

I was married to my contrary. I'll post about it later.

[Blaze]

on enfj's:

the way you are describing these individuals is congruent with the type of enfj, i think. they are the motivators of large groups of people not so much with the one to one interaction. i could see why as an Fi dominant this would feel overwhelming to you and seem to not value the one to one aspect of your relationship with them. enfj's are into drama and usually are pretty opinionated, at least the ones i know. they're better in groups to put it bluntly. they're kind of larger than life or something. (as an aside, i notice that some infj's are much better one to one than in groups)

on contrary relations:

ganin talks about how the better position belongs to the introvert partner in these relations and i agree with this. intp's usually will best me somehow in a group situation...but i get along really well with them one on one. they have interesting ideas and usually they're quite pragmatic and practical. i supervised a staff member who was this type and our supervision sessions were quite productive. it was hard for him to acknowledge his feelings of frustration (Fe polr) with his clients but he was able to do so in one to one supervision. in group supervision, his practicality and thoughtfulness worked well to rein in the Fi types who were too relationally focused with clients. but an aspect of our relationship was that he always felt that he was saying the wrong thing to me, because of how i'd interpret what he'd say. i thought that he would not always follow direction the way i wanted him to.

on the issue with how much time we spend discussing intertype relations at the forum:

i totally agree with you. the "any relations" threads don't get anywhere near enough attention. i'm not sure what the reason for this is, since this part of the theory is really the most interesting, rather than blow by blow analysis of information elements and personality type expression. you post something in these threads and months could go by before you get a response.

[zenbrat]

I have a mirror relation with an ENFj. Your post describes my experience EXACTLY.

I no longer answer the phone when they call, because they immediately launch into a monologue about people I do not know (and do not care about) even though I told them point-blank that I do not enjoy "gossip" about other people. They never ask me how I am, then proceed to interrogate me about who I'm with, where I am, and make statements about what I "must be doing" - then pause, and wait for me to correct them so they can essentially "ask me without actually asking me". I ignore it and let them assume what they like, with no response to their subtle questions either way.

My response to this stuff (including letting calls go to voicemail) causes them to cycle through hostile withdrawal and cloying guilt trippiness. They are always lecturing and guilt-tripping me about just being myself and not being what they expect (want) me to be.

The "friendship" only has 1 good day out of 5 - all because of the ENFj's behavior patterns and vacillating approach/avoidance/come-find-me/you're-so-mean-to-me drama (sigh). It constantly forces me to take on the dual role of a stoic ISTj to keep from exacerbating nothing.

He's nice, but not (lots of emotional manipulation, which I abhor) He just seems to really need a friend... and I try to be there... but I can see why all the rest of them ran away!

.

[Christy B]

Yikes! My mother is ENFJ. I have just moved back home and am feeling the effects of this intertype relationship fully. Maybe I will describe more about this later, but right now it is too tiring. . .

[Jarno]

To me, intertype relations are the heart of Socionics, and personally it is impossible for me to understand Socionics without understanding the intertype relations better.

YES, keep this in mind at all times.

To get on topic, my experience with contrary relations is minimal, the only knowledge I have is from what I've read. It seems that the extravert gets the most "pain" out of this relationship as it feels betrayed by the introvert.

They seem to want to correct eachother when in large group settings.

[Danielle]

Blaze, that's an interesting observation, what you said about ENFJs doing better in groups than one on one. One of my ENFj acquaintances is new to our "circle", and I've been trying to think of activities he would enjoy. Which I will then suggest to my ESFj brother so he can handle the arrangements .

It's the Extinguishment/Contrary factor that I need to understand. So it's harder on the extrovert? I can believe that. The introvert has the option to retreat, if not immediately then as soon as they have a chance. I can simply not answer their calls. If I live with one, I could do like my father does with my mother and go in the basement or something. The extrovert is the one who is seeking. But it doesn't seem like the extrovert would continually seek unless they have to (for example, they're married). So this relationship could work so long as the people aren't close and don't have to be. But not far beyond conversations and other superficial endeavors. Nothing requiring continued cooperation?

And what is it that makes it contrary? What is being extinguished? What is going on with the functions here? Taking the example of the ENFj/INFj, what's going on that causes this dynamic?

[BLauritson]

I don't know where "extinguishment" originally comes from (I've seen it written before but don't know the origin) or what it means, but I think it's also called "contrary" because one partner's ego block functions are the other partner's id block functions. An example with the INFj and ENFj:

ENFj ego block: Fe leading, Ni creative
INFj ego block: Fi leading, Ne creative

So I think "contrary" comes from the fact it's the same type of function, but opposite direction (to borrow a bit of MBTI terminology as I know not else how to describe it). But I think one could say that, for example, Fe is "contrary" to Fi, hence the relationship name. Apologies if I haven't explained this well, it's occurring to me lately that I'm not very good at explaining things properly.

[redbaron]

I think I posted about this relationship awhile ago. One of my best friends from college was my contrary--ENFp. Of course I didn't know this at the time. We got along great before we moved in together after college and that was a disaster because we shared a bedroom (bad idea) and had nowhere to retreat to get away from each other. We had similar interests (art and photography) which is where we met and where our friendship started. She would go on and on very dramatically about every crisis in her life and my role was to listen. I was fine with that and amused by it at first but it got old. We would go on photo-shoot adventures together and then spend hours in the darkroom (ooh, I'm really dating myself here) developing the film and printing photos. Mostly it was great fun. It's hard for me to talk about functions and what exactly was going on, socionically (is that a word?) speaking, but since then we have tried a couple of times to reestablish our friendship via phone and email. We both have kids now and I still really like her but each time we try, after a few long emails back and forth, we get irritated with each other and one of us drops off, just won't return the email. I suppose because I don't share her passion for the specific issues she's struggling with. Or maybe it's because I don't readily take her advice. I listen but ultimately do what I want. She can seem kind of bossy. I can't figure it out though. It's weird because I want it to work but I can only take a little bit of her at a time. Too much and I feel like running for the hills. That is the only experience I've had with my contrary. She indeed did extinguish a lot of my energy when we were living together. I couldn't do it anymore.

[munenori2]

In my limited, spotty experience, I haven't actually gotten off half bad with my contraries (though I have to admit that I seem to identify more closely with my quasi-identicals). In many ways, I can respect what they have to say while also holding to myself that I think along differing lines. I'm very generally an easy-going, accepting kind of guy so I was wondering if that in and of itself is telling (that the interaction seems that acceptable). I'm probably speaking out of far too little experience since I've only typed one person as ENFj in my actual life and we seem to get on relatively fine.

On the other hand, I can't really imagine anyone who I'd really detest unless they were a total ass. This also confuses me because I find most of the other self-proclaimed ESTp's to be fascinating individuals. Perhaps that has more to do with the type of contact (online), but I'm typically interested in what they have to say. That's not to say that ESTp's should come off as asses generally. Hell, I get on with pretty much anyone unless they insult me or the people I care about, so maybe that's not a good indicator at all. So, yeah, your experience with your contraries?

[munenori2]

Also, it's probably worth noting that what spurred this topic was a friend of mine that get's on pretty well with what I've typed as two of his contraries. However, his interest in hanging out with them seems to stem from material factors (they are providing him something he wants which he'd otherwise be unable to get himself).

In some ways it makes me wonder about how he's doing, since things aren't going well for him at all atm. A lot of what he does these days appear to be because he feels obligated (particularly owing money to certain parties that he feels necessary to compensate with his time and company). Maybe it's me that's doing the compensating though. Perhaps I've mistyped them all and they simply appreciate each other's company. I don't know. It just seems like he's unhappy with the way his life is going, yet feels unable to change them (or at least is holding off on having to deal with it). Interestingly enough, he graduated with a psychology major, though he has no idea what he's going to do with it yet.

[FDG]

Very cool, esp. the Ne subtypes.

Generally, contraries have our dual temperament, share the same club, and are opposite on the asker-declarer dichotomy and negative-positive dichotomy. It's like having a dual that values different functions.

[tiny_dancer]

I get along well with INFps... Haven't ever dated one, though.

As for INFj-ENFj, I've seen it go both ways. My INFj coworker has had explosive arguments with two ENFjs that work here (although just about everyone has, but theirs are definitely the worst). INFjs can yell? Yes, yes they can. Step on their polr about every five seconds with grade school behavior and watch what happens.

My best friend knew an ENFj in school, and they were 'school' friends. Haven't spoken since graduation..

[aka-kitsune]

So, yeah, your experience with your contraries?

I like 'em.

If I were to venture guesses on types -- my Mom, brother AND one of my close friends are all ENFps. I find that while we aren't always in agreement, there's often an easygoing familiarity and shared goofiness that makes for really fun interaction. The only thing that has persistently caused tension (my POV) is the E/I polarity -- I'm naturally inclined to need less external stimulation than they do. They sometimes seem to perceive me as a stick-in-the-mud, when I'm just more likely to check in with my internal mood and beg off some kind of activity that will take "too much" energy.

I'm also not as spontaneous as I could be and more self-inhibited then they...

But I really am attracted to their energy and often wish I could commandeer their attention and interest more effectively.

[Angel Alliterator]

Rarely met an INFJ, but I would think we would both like to be in charge of the situation and get into it.

[Minde]

Rarely met an INFJ, but I would think we would both like to be in charge of the situation and get into it.

No, if you want to be in charge I'll let you.

I'll just more likely go do my own thing if I don't like what you're doing. Unless you back me into a corner.

I certainly wouldn't want to "get into it" if I could help it.

[UDP]

No, if you want to be in charge I'll let you.

Now, along the same lines, when ISTjs don't let me be in charge, that's when I have issues.

When there is a real atmosphere of being on the same level and the same team, it's fine. But the attitude of "you don't need to know this" is deeply unsettling, and I believe it bothers them quite a bit when I don't just comply with that.

Aside from that, they are good workers, sturdy. Like all clubs I guess, if we're working on something together that is sort of in our field, then it's great. But there is definitely a break in terms of quadra atmospheres when we are relaxing or not working.

[tiny_dancer]

the attitude of "you don't need to know this"

Whoa. That is one of the things the INFj has gotten into arguments with the ENFj over. They are the same education level, age, and rank in the company, and the ENFj will subtly imply that, which to the INFj is saying, "I'm more important than you, therefore you're on a 'need to know' basis only." Basically the INFj thinks he's a Lundberg.

He does this quite often. He patronizes the principles too... is that balls, sheer arrogance, or massive stupidity? I'm not sure which.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Now, along the same lines, when ISTjs don't let me be in charge, that's when I have issues.

Is ISTj your contrary relation? Why do you need to be the one in charge. Maybe if you backed off a little and found a common ground?

When there is a real atmosphere of being on the same level and the same team, it's fine. But the attitude of "you don't need to know this" is deeply unsettling, and I believe it bothers them quite a bit when I don't just comply with that.

Why don't you comply?

Aside from that, they are good workers, sturdy. Like all clubs I guess, if we're working on something together that is sort of in our field, then it's great. But there is definitely a break in terms of quadra atmospheres when we are relaxing or not working.

It's not until I get to leisure time that the real issues arise. They are too inflexible to hook in to my version of fun.

[UDP]

It is what an ENFj relative of mine does too, and I was unsure of whether or not to call him out on at a recent gathering. It bothers me sooooo much. I have to make sure that when I react to it, it doesn't play into their hands though.

I mean, the ENFj could just be doing it because it feels threatened. If everyone is on the same status, then, the ENFj will ruffle things up or try to distinguish itself somehow. If it is the exact same as the INFj, all the more reason to start stuff, it might feel threatened that it is not special enough.



I'm not sure - actually, I want to ask beta quadra right now...

[UDP]

Is ISTj your contrary relation? Why do you need to be the one in charge. Maybe if you backed off a little and found a common ground?

Why don't you comply?

What the hell? Why don't I comply?
What kind of a question is that?

Why should I comply? I have absolutely no reason to do such a thing. I want to know what's going on wherever I am, "you don't need to know this" is no excuse, and it actually pisses me off even more when people think it is going to work on me.


I'm an E8... but I suppose you don't know that.
That's right - Sig's going back up.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

What the hell? Why don't I comply?
What kind of a question is that?

Why should I comply? I have absolutely no reason to do such a thing. I want to know what's going on wherever I am, "you don't need to know this" is no excuse, and it actually pisses me off even more when people think it is going to work on me.


I'm an E8... but I suppose you don't know that.
That's right - Sig's going back up.

I didn't know your E number

Hehe. ISTj's do tend to withold knowledge in my experience. It just seems to be in their nature (infact I think its tied in with their 3rd function-but don't quote me) , which if it isn't an excuse its still a justification-kind of. Sometimes I've found that the less I ask then the more they end up saying. At the very least they'll still say nothing and therefore they will have told me just as much and I'll have saved myself the aggro

Although in my experience ESTj's seem to know everything thats going on. How do you guys manage to do that?

[UDP]

How can you really be comfortable with not knowing what is going on?

You could also say it is related to the LSE's third function, too. polr leaves no room for mysticism or uncertainty about things. So like, LSEs like knowing things because they prefer to know rather than not know - they don't like leaving things up to chance. They don't believe in it. It seems pointless.

It could perhaps be driven by fear just as much as by an honest desire to understand things as much as they can.

Perhaps it is sort of the opposite of the ISTj, who feels better if people "know" less. The ESTj feels better if things are more transparent. Like, if you are actually hiding something from me, (and maybe this is just me, I don't know), but that makes me want to find out even more. It is like bad news, because it really agitates people sometimes that I won't let things go. So I have to balance between letting things go and knowing when it is ok for me to just force people to tell me what I need to know.

Most of the time it is not because I am nosy or anything like that -- I just want to be assured that things are going to plan and things are going well. My first complaint among joining one organization was that "I don't have enough information to progress in this area". And for me, it took more time than I would have liked for them to reveal things or discuss things enough. I guess they are just not used to new people having such an interest or wanting to know stuff. Anyways, enough about that.


So to answer your question of "How do you guys manage to do that", I would say it is a combination of both a dislike or uneasiness about not knowing things, and also a standpoint of "the more I know about this, the better I can make it, the better things can progress, the higher quality that can be achieved", so to say.

Knowledge is very powerful, a very valued asset. So intentionally withholding it from me is in some ways a threat, or perhaps even an insult. It is entirely unnatural for me to not "know what is going on".

[xyz]

What the hell? Why don't I comply?
What kind of a question is that?

Why should I comply? I have absolutely no reason to do such a thing. I want to know what's going on wherever I am, "you don't need to know this" is no excuse, and it actually pisses me off even more when people think it is going to work on me.

You have no entitlement to any and all information, sir.

[Angel Alliterator]

I usually like to be in charge, but I love to get others involved in the process like some big group fun.

I am in charge though, but if I see that someone is competent enough with leadership I won't mind being Co-leader.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I usually like to be in charge, but I love to get others involved in the process like some big group fun.

I am in charge though, but if I see that someone is competent enough with leadership I won't mind being Co-leader.

Do you like to force people to have fun?

How would you asses someones competency?

[Angel Alliterator]

I sometimes do (force people into group activities) others want to do their own thing which really annoys me.

You can tell pretty quickly who has competent leadership skills. They too have a vision and an ability to guide people without question. Their judgement and assessment is what usually determines the level of competency.

It's all about vision of the group, the leader enforces the vision, the group follows.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I sometimes do (force people into group activities) others want to do their own thing which really annoys me.

You can tell pretty quickly who has competent leadership skills. They too have a vision and an ability to guide people without question. Their judgement and assessment is what usually determines the level of competency.

It's all about vision of the group, the leader enforces the vision, the group follows.

Cool.

When you say guide people without question, I'm not sure I understand, does this mean you would look to lead a team of yes men? Or that the leader doesn't question there own abilities or methods?

Do you think leadership and management can be two different things?