What have been our experiences with these? Rick's description differs from that of DarkAngelFireWolf69....are these relations of "growing laziness" or where partners "do more, but talk less"?
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What have been our experiences with these? Rick's description differs from that of DarkAngelFireWolf69....are these relations of "growing laziness" or where partners "do more, but talk less"?
My personal experience was that the relationship was absolutely euphoric... until we decided to live together. It was about 5 months into the relationship and under not so great circumstances, but we both loved the idea of living together. He and I very rarely fought before we moved in together. When our relationship began, he seemed so perfect for me. He was my ex's contrary and seemed to be everything that my ex wasn't. Anyways, the very first day we were technically living together we were shopping for things we needed for the house and we got into a big fight in the middle of the store. Travis (who was then less than two years old) started making some noise and he barked at Travis to shut up... I lost it. I said, "Do NOT tell him to shut up." He didn't seem to understand why it was such a big deal. Some lady who was nearby commented that I was right, and he yelled at her, too. I still get pretty pissed off when I think about someone yelling at my son to shut up. Anyways...
From there on out things got pretty shitty. There were a whole lot of bad circumstances involved... very, very low income due to both of us getting mono and my illness and surgery, stress with our room mate and his friends, and simply being in different life stages. Regardless, before we lived together we were very connected and communicated openly and honestly with each other. Once the relationship was shifted into "the real world" we were suddenly disconnected from each other, and he started allowing his friends to be more important to him than our relationship. It was a ridiculous mess that I don't often think about. The whole thing took place in just under a year, but when I think back on my life, he doesn't come to mind unless something else reminds me of him. At the end of the day, I'd sum up the whole mess as an embarrassment. Especially since I broke up with him like 4 times, and each time he managed to somehow smooth talk me into taking him back (something no one else has ever been able to do).
I can see how being with my dual under the same circumstances could have turned out much, much differently.
Ugh. Enough about that.
haha this photo is a good summary of our relationship... he's such a dumbass
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...irony/scan.jpg
I wonder is he's still alive :(
Sounds like the DarkAngelFireWolf69 description runs truer for your illusionary relationship Joy. I take it he was an istj?
I have had two of these kinds of relationships so far. The first one is hard to figure since he was smoking weed the whole time and I was an active alcoholic at the time. When I got into recovery I left him. The latest one is only a couple of months old and it seems great so far, but it seems he has the issue of "seeking independence" and wants to be sure I understand fully what that means.
We have this head over heels attraction though. And can talk for hours. Seems like I like to be more active; he stays more relaxed.
Do you think that living with your dual understand similar circumstances as your illusionary would have had similar results?
No. It would have been rough, but it probably could have worked out if he'd been my dual.Quote:
Originally Posted by diamond8
huh, kind of like the illusionary relationship cannot withstand a lot of stress or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
looking for more comments, peeps, has anyone else had this relation?
I haven't had a romantic relationship with an ISTj, no. I am good friends with an ISTj guy and with an ISTj woman, both over many years.Quote:
Originally Posted by diamond8
I think "illusion" is an appropriate name since at first, at the beginning of the relationship, you may have precisely the illusion that it's your dual.
Basically what happens, as you get closer, is that you reach a sort of -- barrier, beyond which the relationship doesn't progress. While in duality, in principle, all things being equal, the best you can do is be yourself, in illusion you realize that there is a point that if you are fully yourself, you annoy/confuse each other. So the relationship requires a bit of watching your step.
One of my ISTj friends have quite recently become involved with an ENTj in a romantic relationship. I have only met her once, so I am not yet 100 % sure that she is an ENTj but the only other possible type for her is ESTj, and ENTj seems much more likely. Does anyone want to make some more predictions on how that relationship will evolve?
i always think that the relationship of Ross and Rachel on "Friends" is an illusionary relationship - entp-infp. they are madly attracted to one another but then something always goes wrong and they break up. but then they get over it and get back together. again and again.
my personal experience with 4 Illusionary relations/friendships is everytime the same.
- You like eachother.
- In a group environment you prefer the company of your illusionary partner.
- And you get lazy or tired while being together...
And I even noticed this behaviour with an other illusionary couple too.
I find Illusionary the most easy to notice relationship. It's also possible to notice it really early, sometimes after 5 seconds.
That's a good way to describe it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat
Basically your hidden agenda is being fulfilled and it's awesome, but as time goes by, problems or distance arises because your dual seeking function isn't being fulfilled.
Perhaps your hidden agenda provides stimulation and your dual seeking function provides security?
Well, I was in an illusionary relationship and let me tell you, all of this is very true.
However, I still believe it is one of the better intertype relations you can have, and if you work @ it, a relationship CAN work pretty well.. especially if your subtypes seem to match up. Ti & Fe I mean. I was INFp Fe and he was ENTp Ti I believe. I ended it not really because of disagreements.. it was just me not being attracted physically anymore, so to all you out there, Illusionary CAN work XD
Plus, I generally really enjoy the company of ENTps. They are fun people and yeah, I notice that the Hidden Agenda being fulfilled really does provide a ton of stimulation.. I love it when ENTps get all "AWW, AWESOME JOB" because of them thinking they're good at Fe XDXDXD.. but yeah ...
Yeah, illusionary definately can't handle stress. My ENTp had just broken up with an ESFp and went on to me. The ESFp was one of my good friends so naturally this caused a lot of drama. I was very indecisive and the ENTp couldn't handle it. Eventually, we did get together somehow, it was really nice for a while, but there was always something missing. Plus everyone was against it (More stress). Then we started talking less, doing more blah blah, cheating ensued. Yeeey.
Diamond, you say you talk alot? What do you like to discuss? When I was with the ENTp, it seemed like he didn't find anything I had to say as very interesting. Or we would chat, but never get deeper into anything. Like he didn't think I could handle his feelings on life and such. How do you view INFp's?
I think it's both "growing laziness" and "do more, talk less". It's like, if we were just laying around doing nothing, we'd just fall asleep, get bored after a while. But if we were out eating, or walking around the park, it was okay, but felt a little forced... Also, when I was feeling down and mopey, he tried to lift my spirits, but I guess I needed Se or something. I couldn't be enthusiastic about anything with him. Felt like my energy was drained. And when I tried, it felt like it was in vain. I dunno how much of this is because of socionics or because of the cheating, I guess the stress and illusionary combined did it.
yeah i was thinking that illusionary is actually better than semi-dual since you don't really like to hang out with the same people as your semi dual does. i think rick says this too. i've never been in a relationship with my semi dual, i don't think i'm attracted to delta/gamma groups. i also identify more with Fe hidden agenda than si dual seeking. it's hard for me to pin point si dual seeking behaviors or even to pin point satisfaction in getting a massive dose of si from others.
but yeah scarlettlux i think you do have to do a little more work than with your dual. and make sure your expectations are in line with what your illusionary partner can give.
@eliphalet: on talking, we talk about everything. all my crackpot theories and ideas including socionics, observations from the mental health field i work in and from his job, funny observations about people in general. he makes really really funny jokes and talks even more than i do about almost anything random. we can stay on the phone for like three hours. we talk about trends and how things can develop over time, possibilities, anything.
we are a little more lazy right now since it is the beginning and you tend to stay inside a lot (LOL). but slowly we are moving outside and doing more stuff and are on the verge of meeting more of each other's people.
i ask him if he needs forcefulness and he says i'm pretty forceful already. i dunno...maybe a relic of mine from living with an estp for 15 years? hahaha i've been estp'd over the years.
i'd have to say he is Ni dominant and i'm Ne dominant which is where a lot of our talking comes from. then we give each other the right doses of our creative functions i guess. his Fe is pretty creative not overwhelming like an enfj guy i dated briefly. sometimes i feel like he knows how to change my mood and i know how to help him think about a problem or issue or something.
erg, i hate these kinds of threads because i dont know what my type is. back when peter used to be entp and i was infp, i thought that was illusionary and fit pretty well but NOPE. and then i thought my boyfriend was entp, but now i think he is an INTp or ISTp. and now my type is either infp, isfp, enfp, or esfp.
yeah, that's where socionics starts to seem astrology-like for sure :?
We are a ENFp-INTp couple and it is true, you can't be yourself.
She wants someone who is more purposeful and simpler. I'm simply just too intellectual and we often have disagreements about such stuff, specially religion. I bet INTp prefer more "dumb" ESFp who do not challenge but just listen to them, without analyzing anything.
I want someone who is calm, easy to live with. She's too unstable and negative and always find a reason to be worried about something. I reasure her one day and the next week she's in doubt again. Also, while she is N she's really not interested in abstract theory, nor is she very willing to just listen to me because I need it.
Thing is, we love each other, but I'm thinking that we love more the idealized person than the real one.
the16types.info on Illusionary Relations
Does anyone have an experiences with Illusionary Relations they would like to share? For example, with a family member, coworker, friend, lover, etc.
Also, do you believe there is any truth to the idea that you see a "false self" in your illusionary partner? If so, what is it exactly that you are perceiving you have in common and what is the basis for this?
Um, well, my boyfriend is ENTp, and I'm INFp...its comfy for the most part.
Except my need for Se and such...kind of like right now I need it but my attempts to get it out of him failed.
False self, I can identify with that. I have to act differently than what would be ideal to cope, and he does the same. So basically we just have to work a bit harder when problems come up, and work in a way we are not entirely comfortable, but are able to.
Have in common? I'm not sure what that follow up question means..
What qualities about your ENTp partner do you think you have in common?Quote:
Originally Posted by Clover
False self is a strange description, I felt that we shared many interests. I could also feel we were drawn to eachother, and the feeling of lazyness I felt with everyone, with the exception of one person.
Illusionary pairs are pretty compatible... My parents are ESI-EIE and they really get along each other.
Not sure what you mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by astralsilky
Your illusionary partner shares the same temperament as your dual, and the same creative function. So it's faitly easy to have the "illusion" that they're your dual, especially as long as the relationship remains fairly superficial. As it gets deeper, problems and misunderstandings start to arise.
what kinda Se you looking for aurora? :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Clover
hot! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by diamond8
+2
*poof*
I deffinately like the "let me tell ya somethin motherfucker...." part :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by diamond8
I dated my illusionary for about 3 months. I definitely identify with the "false self" part: we thought about lots of the same things, had many of the same ideals, enjoyed plenty of the same activities, etc etc. There was also an obvious complimentary part of the relationship, which I feel like we tried to develop, but it just wasn't there; it all basically went downhill when we strayed from the focus on commonality and began to actually *need* things from one another.
what did you need from her, in practical terms?Quote:
Originally Posted by GillySaysGoodbye
@BG: yeah that phrase is hysterical....am i right or wrong about philosophy you think?
Well, I was extremely depressed, so really I needed someone who could tell not just that I was in a bad mood and try to cheer me up, but that there was something seriously wrong with me, and actually help motivate me into helping myself instead of just letting me wallow in my misery and depend on what little time I had with her for happiness. At the end of our relationship, she told me that I made her feel "inadequate" because she couldn't help me like she thought she could.
(For the record, she may have been EIE.)
depends on how the philosophy thing pans out... like if it's just off the top of your head freestyle philosophy (think stoner talk) I'd be all over it. But if your like quoting Nitchze or whatever like some damn fool it would get old quick and lead to much :8*... actually I'd probably just tune it out or redirect it into something else if you were doing that. Probably tease you about it afterwards or turn it into sexual inuendo too.
As far as intellectual topics go... I like the random "hey listen to this cool shit right here!" sort of stuff (I do that alot myself with my friends). It's all about being a catalyst for more "stoner vision" sort of thinking though. Like "how can we use this to make our own army of monkey assasains to take over the world with?"
@Gilly: huh. i could see that. is that Si? who broke up with who? i ask because i was in a relationship with an enfj, i broke up with him, he was really cool the best boyfriend i had when young, really, but you know i just needed to be on my own or something and he couldn't help me. (but alcohol sure did, at least i thought so at the time).
@BG: yes i'm more random. i wouldn't quote Nietsche (sp?). but i'm so done being a stoner, i only like to joke about it these days. as in "who spilled bong water all over this newspaper??" hahaha
This is your entry speech for your official induction into the Alpha Quadra :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
More like S in general. It didn't help that she was Ni sub.Quote:
Originally Posted by diamond8
:DQuote:
Originally Posted by GillySaysGoodbye
Yes!!! when's the induction ceremony??Quote:
Originally Posted by GillySaysGoodbye
LOL yes I can! :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by diamond8
LOL!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
I just came out of a 6 1/2 month relationship with an INFp...
- "growing laziness"
This was really weird: after a few hours of interaction I'd find myself unable to keep my eyes open while looking at her, I'd have to look away to feel comfortable, and i'd begin to feel trapped. It was like having a bright light in my face. One time it went away after I talked to her about some journal articles i'd read the night before that had made me excited. So I think this must be a symptom of leading function suppression - I've found the same thing with two ESFp's only with them it happened immediately.
However she, (the infp) couldn't empathize with this feeling so it may be just me.
- dissatisfied dual-seeking functions
The few times in the relationship when i felt completely fulfilled were immediately after she'd done this thing where we'd be facing each other and she'd slowly, tenderly, cover my cheeks with kisses with this look of contentment on her face. I spent a lot of time feeling starved of affection, wishing she'd be more hedonistic. It annoyed me she was usually too anxious about uni to allow us the time required for to get in the right mood to make sex. "I'm not aroused right now and i don't want to let myself be aroused" - i never understood this. From her point of view - she wanted me to be confident and to not be needy - when I felt starved of affection she could see it and it would make it impossible for her to feel affectionate. A downward spiral of mutual dissatisfaction.
Just consider how an ESTp would have reacted.Quote:
Originally Posted by porntips
estp would have, er, moved forward, one way or another....lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Expat
Quote:
Originally Posted by astralsilky
We both seem to think we are more right than the other at times.
We like to do a lot of the same things, we have similar taste in other people.
I suppose we both have a "be proactive so we can relax" attitude.
@diamond8- the sexy kind
and whats with all the deleted posts from j00?
I created this topic so that we can share our experiences with illusionary relationships and in response to blaze in another thread which I did not want to take off topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaze
@blaze
I find it kind of hard to exactly explain what I have observed with these relations especially the ones that have been going on for quite a while and particulary one between an ISTj and an ENTj that I have observed quite closely but will not discuss in this post.
In illusionary relations, the parties seem relaxed almost to the point of being "asleep" around each other a lot of times and no matter how hard they try to assist each other with outside goals it is like the assistance doesn't go very far. I think in illusionary relations it can seem like the people struggle to be really ambitious about things outside the relationship and even about the relationship itself. It is not that their outward ambition dies after a while, it is more like there is a struggle to keep it alive and move towards their goals. They both want to move forward with their goals but they are somewhat stuck and just can't really move effectively... especially the :Se: valuing person when involved with a none :Se: valuing person. In simple terms, outside :Se: provides a kind of strong drive or movement for the people in whom it is weak yet valued. In the same people, :Si: provides something more like a feeling of stagnation, retreat, decline etc eventually.
I have not closely observed any illusionary relationship between an INFp and ENTp like the one you are in, perhaps the sort of relaxed go with the flow nature of some INFps and the :Si: values of ENFps may make them have a different quality to say one where two :Se: valuing types are involved. I suspect that even though an INFp may enjoy the relaxed nature that illusionary relations can have, they really do need strong :Se: to really get them moving which is actually what they deeply need rather than something that resembles :Si: type relaxation which they really like. Illusionary relations seem to be not bad for certain types of friendships though and in general the illusionary relationships that I have observed have been going on for a long time despite the under current of vague dissatisfaction and gradual decline in the ambition/growth of the people involved. People in illusionary relations regardless of the types involved to me always seem mentally and psychically frozen(illusionary relations are not usually as obviously antagonistic, tiring and aggravating as some other relations and the parties usually truly admire aspects of each other, 2nd function related) their dreams and progress are passing them by while they are in a half unaware immobilized "relax" state depending on the types involved. They give me the impression of being destructive to the partners in a stealthy way which is not really easy for them to perceive or fight against though in ISXj/ENXj ones, the parties are often more critical of each other and more overt with their expectations.
If the illusionary relationship is working for you then that is indeed great. If you are happy and satisfied with it then perhaps that is all that truly matters. I think you mentioned somewhere about once being in an illusionary relationship with an overly relaxed weeding smoking INFp?
yes i've had 2 illusionary relationships. the first one the infp was a weed smoker....i ended it after 3 years mostly due to his lack of desire to get involved in my recovery or to do anything about smoking weed. it is really hard for me to analyze this relationship from a socionic perspective though since i was an active alcoholic through out most of it, complete with the worst behavior that an entp demonstrates :oops: and he was lazy lazy lazy. but we still achieved goals...got our own apartments and got our careers launched after college. he responded well to Ti logic and i to Fe. i think he really wanted to stay friends but the new man, estp, who i eventually married, would not have that, soooo.....
i'd have to say that a big part of the attraction to estp though was that his energy level was more similar to mine. and we did achieve a lot of things together. constantly were working on external goals. in fact, that's pretty much the whole relationship. i can see why they call this relation business because we could get a lot done together. rick's description of extravert-extravert relationships fits to a T for my marriage.
with the current infp man, his energy is lower, but he gets stuff done. right now we do not live together, so we are on a track of doing our own individual work....mine is mostly "inside" work right now, my feelings, my inner life etc. his work is mostly "outside work" taking care of outside responsibilities and goals. we are both motivated to become stronger so we can bring more to the relationship and to life. i do not know if we will make a permanent commitment or not, since i want to get more time away from my divorce before i make up my mind.
but at our age it's different. our careers are well established and we have a lot to bring forward from our married lives, materially and as far as relationships with people. so we don't have to do as much "building" although there is some building to do, saving and such. mostly it's planning for retirement and getting older.
the other thing i've noticed is that we've both developed our dual seeking functions pretty well. this causes me to wonder how much i need it from others. i've concluded that the only time i really need it is when i'm highly irritated and stressed out, usually with some Fi related fuck up of my own. but now i know this and i can directly ask for assistance. for him, good logic and persuasion seems to do the trick most times. he knows what he needs to do to get going.
but i do see your points about Se dual seeking....i think people who seek this really need this to activate from time to time, so the infp in this case would be more dissatisfied than the entp, since just being around an IP is pretty relaxing even if they don't have Si in the ego block. there is a gender angle to this, also, in that most women have to do the Si thing to some extent. for myself there has never been anyone in my life giving me the Si. my mother had it as a creative function, but what with an infj, entp, enfp, and intj in our family, there simply wasn't enough to go around. so my point is that i am a pretty independent person, not very "infantile" at all.
but then again, i lived with my estp for 15 years, so i sort of think that his Se rubbed off on me.
then again, this whole post could be completely self serving, so what do i know? i'd like to hear from other people about illusionary relations, too.
I find ENFjs attractive from a distance, mainly because they tend to be very perceptive, which I find extremely appealing. Likewise, they always seem attracted to me because of my assertiveness and quiet confidence. Upon closer inspection, however, ENFjs simply drain my energy and always seem to want something I can't give them.
This is not to say it can't work, as my experiences have all been the bad examples of this relation, but if you want to really stimulate each other you better start learning your role function.
I feel like ISTjs are expecting something from me. I don't know what. They want me to chat a lot? I don't have a clue. But they kind of "like" me in a way I sometimes can find creepy (the males). It's okay if the females like me, I enjoy the attention.
In any case with my father the Te Ti difference is obvious. Whenever we are doing something practical, he asks me many times "why" "why" "why" in order to form a system in his head. Whereas I personally know the workings of objects, but I don't necessarily know the reason as to why they work that way, nor I am willing to go find them. We complement each other on typical Ni-Se things, though. Also being double emotion-creating doesn't work well: I rather prefer to be the one doing most of the talking and the silly one, and given that he has the same preference, we end up not exchanging ever any relevant information :lol:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan
megan, my observations are nearly identical to yours. i've witnessed this with an ENTp/INFp couple. although what i've witnessed is nothing like blaze has described, there seems to be a real slowdown in terms of what the couple actually gets done. it seems as if it's too relaxing for both of them, so from my pov both of them have sort of "stalled" and gone backwards in terms of growth, goals, etc, during the relationship.
it probably depends on the pair, but in my experience a semi dual relation is more energizing than an illusionary one. I do feel comfortable with ESTjs but just feel no interest in what they are interested in.. if i find things they do interesting it's not usually why the ESTjs are doing these things. It's what I've added myself.. in any case there is a feeling of disconnect that makes you feel like that partner is just dead weight.
Although I don't get why people think a relationship is going well only when both people are striving towards more and more external goals. Maybe they just prefer to relax at that point in the lives? What would the problem be? Not everybody puts success as a priority. Luckily.
exactly. the outside stuff isn't everything although it is important when you are trying to get your career going and have children and buy a home and such. case in point is the lookalike relation, where extraverts especially focus on the outside stuff at the expense of the internal health and connectedness of the relationship. the older i get the more i see the outside stuff, while important, is definitely not everything. you need a good relaxed supportive internal balance also. all that striving for material and external goals gets tiring...and for what? so you can keep up with the joneses in your community? just being happy and chillin like an older couple sitting on a porch is where it's really at. which is part of what people may be seeing in illusionary relationships they are observing but not in.Quote:
Originally Posted by FDG
it's also hard to know what is really going on in someone else's relationship, too, unless you live with them (like your parents). even if one partner in the couple tells you, you're still only getting half the story.
i'd like to hear more from people who have been in illusionary relationships, not just observed them.
I always see couples that are together when they're old as being more happy than when they're in their 30s striving to get up the social ladder. Economists and social scientists tested multiple times happiness over lifespan and the conclusion was always that it's V shaped with an minimum at around 40, and peaks in childhood and as elders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaze
Of course a balance is better since you're not able to enjoy the calmness if you haven't gone through rougher periods. But yeah, measuring happiness only over external sources is clearly stupid. This said, duality should allow for presence of both things together (the ability to accomplish external goals as well as moments of relaxation).
.
It's probably not very helpful, but ESFj's always make me feel like I'm being hosted/taken care off. They seem to cater to my needs. However, my experience is just with relations of mine, so in the naturally limited contact I've had, it's really just seemed like awesome times (i.e. playing board games, guitar hero, telling/listening to jokes, eating fantastic meals, etc).
Other than that, I agree that it seems like we speak the same language...it's just our focuses feel just slightly askew.
i have now had two illusionary relationships. the first one was when i was about 24 years old and the other is now. the first one fits the description of illusionary pretty well. the one i'm in now seems closer to being a duality relation but not quite, but 100% better than the first illusionary. i have to go to work though so i'll comment more later.
Good relationship for friendships. No problem at all when being one-on-one, but me and ISTjs are attracted to very different social groups.
interesting. the wikipedia is wrong since with illusionary your dual seeking is the other person's role function; it's not in their id block. and actually this fits perfectly....each partner's dual seeking is not quite adequately met by the other person, but it's not like it's not there at all or anything.
i'm still not 100% on whether i am an ILE or an SLE or what. like i could be an ILE and i've developed Se/Si really well from being with my ex for so long or i could be an SLE who was raised in an Ne valuing family so i developed Ne more. i'm really not sure but the main thing is that i do have a pretty forceful personality and i also have a very active Ne imagination so i kind of think i'm strongest in Ti and i kind of straddle the fence between Se and Ne. and i feel comfortable with and attracted to both alphas and betas.
ok so first possible illusionary relation:
i was incredibly drawn to this guy he just touched me somehow. we had great sex. and had a pretty good similar rhythm of life but just to give an example, the thing that ESTP is complaining about in her thread is what i would have complained about when i was 24, very push pull and a lack of certainty. he was pretty lazy and would be very flaky about making plans and getting together. this made me feel very insecure in the relationship. but the problem was actually also external...yet related to our personalities. he was a weed smoker and i was an active alcoholic at the time. knowing what i know today i would say that his weed smoking was kind of related to his HA/Ti - it made him feel creative and like he understood things better or something. plus it made him even more lazy than he already was Ni style. my drinking was a direct connection to my HA/Fe -the need to be kind of emotionally free, reduce anxiety, and undo the negative consequences of Fi polr. but anyway, then i got clean and he would not get clean nor would he take my recovery from alcohol seriously or get involved in it. but all this was further complicated by the fact that he was definitely not ready to make a commitment to marriage or even moving in together. i honestly don't think i was either, so we were kinda like, boyfriend and girlfriend and we would help each other out and hang out but we were not meeting one another's needs very well. not that we really understood what our needs were or anything. it was very hard to break up with him but i eventually did because he couldn't break up. but most of my dissatisfaction with this relationship was with his flakiness and laziness. i think he'd get ticked off by me trying to push for a better status of relationship. but this behavior of mine had to do with my insecurity with myself not really him. but anyway the thing that totally trumps socionics in the relationship is the substance abuse, it kind of covered everything else. if it were not for that, i bet we would have done fine together. we were together about 3 years.
at this point i met my SLE ex, who at the time very much looked and acted much more emotional and introverted than he really was, but who at the same time had tons of drive, motivation, and energy. but anyway, my ex was also in recovery, and we totally bonded and fell head over heels immediately. his energy was like a tonic; it matched mine. we'd do do do stuff together. rarely would disagree about what to do and we would both try anything. it was so great after the laziness of the first IEI. we moved in together really fast too (big mistake).
ok so second possible illusionary relationship with infpman is totally different i think for a few different reasons. first, no substance abuse. second, we're in our 40's and we both have developed our weaker functions pretty well. third, both have a failed marriage which makes us highly motivated to practice good relationship skills and not make stupid mistakes again. fourth we ask for what we need directly. we know how to manage each other. and we have a great mutual spiritual commitment. over the last year, we've been running a series of gauntlets together. they involved whether to see other people, how much time to spend together, how we expected to be treated, what was acceptable or unacceptable behavior in the relationship, who is in charge of what, how we will resolve disagreements. a lot of times we were not sure we would get through these things. the relationship seemed at intervals to be on the brink of not working. but yet every single time we evolved to a higher level and figured out that we wanted the same things and were able to resolve stuff. he would typically withdraw at these times and i would typically become more forceful. and we would both be right. and now we are feeling incredibly close and deep.
at times i want a little bit more demonstration of caring and concern from him...but he usually responds if i ask. at time he wants a little bit more space to himself....if he asks, i usually let him have it. and it's like ok.
but anyway i am not an infp or anything but i have had relationships with them so i figure i can post. sorry for the super long post hopefully it's not too overwhelming.
I think the dual-seeking and HA functions really need to be satisfied in tandem. Getting your HA satisfied but not your dual-seeking function is a bit like drinking salt water - it wets your tongue but doesn't satisfy your thirst.
ILE needs SiFe. SLE needs NiFe. Neither type's thirst is completely quenched with Fe alone.
Everytime I talk to my ENTp, he communicates one or more physical ailments/concerns and sorta prompts for me to comfort him. I thoroughly suck at comforting physical concerns - I invariably respond with "you will be fine" (period, next topic). He needs immediate (xSxx) satisfaction of an immediate sensory concern, which I as an xNxx cannot provide.
Si(Fe) dominant types would be much better at responding to what ILE is prompting for:
Quote:
The avoidance of discomfort is one of the primary motivations of these types [Si dominant]. Feelings of internal discomfort can arise from a tense psychological atmosphere, working too hard and sapping the body's resources, being pressured by other people or by numerous "things to do," and from unsatiated or oversatiated physical needs. These types tend to quickly recognize and be quite vocal about discomfort that arises and either take clever measures to dissipate it or simply get out of whatever is bothering them. They are very receptive to other people sharing feelings of discomfort with them and can help alleviate the tension and offer good solutions. Wikisocion
On the other hand, my ESTp's always communicate concerns related to the outcomes of current events/projects. They are looking for NiFe, i.e. "everything will be fine because of this, this and this...". They get irritated with SiFe's who start physically comforting (petting) and constantly asking "How how do you feel? Are you feeling, ok? Did this bother you? What's wrong? What do you need to feel better?" This line of questioning is really uncomfortable for SLE, so they stop communicating their concerns and sort of close off from the SiFe over time.
yeah i think i read somewhere that it's harder for sensing types to survive some relations than for intuitive types
i know this is side bar to the topic, but fwiw i never do this.Quote:
Everytime I talk to my ENTp, he communicates one or more physical ailments/concerns and sorta prompts for me to comfort him. I thoroughly suck at comforting physical concerns - I invariably respond with "you will be fine" (period, next topic). He needs immediate (xSxx) satisfaction of an immediate sensory concern, which I as an xNxx cannot provide.
i do this also.Quote:
On the other hand, my ESTp's always communicate concerns related to the outcomes of current events/projects. They are looking for NiFe, i.e. "everything will be fine because of this, this and this...".
but i don't get irritated when somebody asks me how i'm feeling or what i need.
Some ISFp's can get a little hover-y and smothering with it. Especially Enneagram 9 ISFp's. They are extremely uncomfortable around people in low spirits and will stay on them til it's "all better".Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively
From you I get a very grounded presence, with lots of practical wisdom (which probably taps into my Se and Ti needs), so I always enjoy reading your posts. Do you ever test around 50/50 on S and N?
zenbrat avatar = hot.:D
ah thanks i do so enjoy reading yours also it seems you're always on to something! you always seem to be posting something that gets me wanting to discuss and analyze or something. you've got good theories and observations, and you catch dynamics really well.Quote:
Originally Posted by zenbrat
well i don't usually test as SLE but sometimes those tests are not great ways of diagnosing type. but i am up in the air about my type and am considering an alternative theory for how the types express themselves over time, over the lifespan.
it's something like you become more balanced as you age and as you get around a long term partner over time. your long term partner influences you quite a bit and you learn from them. i think this happens in a different way when your partner is NOT your dual. you change a lot being around a nondual or something. like i have pretty good Se for an ILE, if i am an ILE. also i don't really seek Si but i do enjoy it, but at this point i've lived so long without it that i've kind of learned how to fulfill these needs in other ways.
it's almost like i've learned that Ne really bugs a lot of people when it's used indiscriminately and i've learned how important it is to pay attention to power dynamics, facts, details, people's needs and desires, practical application vs theory, and to toughen up because life is tough. so i really do feel like i balance between Ne and Se, even though in the past, like 15-20 years ago, Ne came more effortlessly to me. these days, i try to use Ne more consciously and diligently than in the past.
you know we talk a lot on this forum about duality as the be-all end-all. it's not always practical to find your dual. i think it can come a little bit more easily when you are young esp if you know about the theory, since there are a lot more fish in the sea at that point and your life isn't very complicated yet. then again, when you are young, you might not know yourself that well yet and you might misdiagnose your type. but life has a way of teaching you about who you are....marriage will do that to ya....and so will a career. sometimes these lessons are sure a pain in the ass.
as you age, there are all kinds of other complications and considerations in picking a partner. do my kids like him? do his kids like me? can we talk? do we live close enough to be able to see each other often enough? what's his ex like? what's the financial situation? where would we live? do we have similar spiritual beliefs? yada yada yada. my experience when young, by way of contrast, is that back then you're more open to building, you don't have that much yet, so it's more of a creative process with your partner. when you're older you already have a lot built and a lot of responsibilities and relationships so things are not quite so loose.
if i take something from socionics at the age that i am i say find a person who is basically psychologically compatible. for me this would be relations of activity, duality, illusion, semi-duality. but know yourself, your strengths and weaknesses and what you need. be ready to ask directly for what you need. if you have a person who is even in the ballpark of compatiblility then they will likely be willing and able to help you. but you hafta ask....so it's like, make the unconscious conscious. this willingness to learn and grow and negotiate and set limits and to forgive....these are the truly essential components i think. and any type can practice these skills.
one thing i really like about my current man is how we can talk endlessly about all kinds of interesting ideas. he has a pretty strong Ni, which i actually find totally helpful and interesting. now why would i find Ni helpful? theoretically, i would already have this as am embedded strength. but whatever, i am not sure i would get the same level of talking and intellectual consideration from my dual. so it's like a trade-off. but a good deal for me all things considered.
wow i went off on a big tangent here to a simple question, but i've been wanting to share these ideas for awhile. lol. dunno....zenbrat...what do you think about this?
Just wanna say--great post, Sunshine. I very much resonate with a lot of what you've said here. There are so many more factors as you get older. And I do wonder how one's significant other (especially when not a dual) affects one over time. How can living with someone like that NOT have an affect?
thanx redbaron....:oops:....glad you read my post. i always get afraid that people's eyes are going to glaze over when they see something long. but yeah, once socionics is more developed it would be great for somebody to take a look at the developmental process of type expression over time, and how people change based on their close intertype relations over time.Quote:
Originally Posted by redbaron
Thank you :) I usually feel like no one here 'gets' what I'm seeing because I don't believe socionics theory is the be-all-end-all of a personality. I love to observe and interact with people, then sort of flesh out their psychic paradigm - pulling info from various realms of psychology, behavioralism, the Enneagram, Socionics, MBTI and personal experience. I find merit in every system since these patterns apply IRL, consistently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively
Plus, I'm 33. I've known a LOT of people, had relationships of every possible kind, raised kids, worked jobs in various environments, etc. Experience really is the best teacher - I rarely argue the theoretical principles of socionics because there are so many systems of thought than can be applied to 'understanding' an individual (including good 'ol intuition).
I agree with this concept of life span evolution, 100%. I believe that we incorporate and strengthen functional skills as we are faced with various life circumstances and interact with people who are different from ourselves.Quote:
well i don't usually test as SLE but sometimes those tests are not great ways of diagnosing type. but i am up in the air about my type and am considering an alternative theory for how the types express themselves over time, over the lifespan.
it's something like you become more balanced as you age and as you get around a long term partner over time. your long term partner influences you quite a bit and you learn from them. i think this happens in a different way when your partner is NOT your dual. you change a lot being around a nondual or something. like i have pretty good Se for an ILE, if i am an ILE. also i don't really seek Si but i do enjoy it, but at this point i've lived so long without it that i've kind of learned how to fulfill these needs in other ways.
Here's something you might find interesting, from MBTI:
Quote:
The Leading Role (Dominant) (sometimes referred to as the 1st function)
The process that plays the leading role is the one that usually develops early in childhood.
The Supporting Role (Auxiliary) (sometimes referred to as the 2nd function)
Once we have developed some facility with our leading role process, we are more likely to feel comfortable engaging in our supporting role process.
The Relief Role (Tertiary) (sometimes referred to as the 3rd function)
Usually, in young adulthood we are attracted to activities that draw upon this process.
The Aspirational Role (Inferior) (sometimes referred to as the 4th function)
The aspirational role usually doesn’t develop until around midlife.
http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/16types.html
Agreed. I love my duals - they are mindmates, soulmates, playmates, but rarely ever 'heart-mates'. As an IEI, I do fall into the blind infatuation phase for a while, but eventually I begin to need that enduring spark/heat which is missing from duality. My best relationships were look-a-like, illusionary and activity. Second comes supervision.Quote:
you know we talk a lot on this forum about duality as the be-all end-all. it's not always practical to find your dual.
if i take something from socionics at the age that i am i say find a person who is basically psychologically compatible. for me this would be relations of activity, duality, illusion, semi-duality.
My dual relationships are/were often fraught with early conflict, disappointment and eventual ennui. Duality is like a pair of comfy socks, a safe haven, a psychic resting place - not a hot romance. My duals and I usually remain long-time friends but find other romantic partners... strangely enough though, they tend to decide that I am "The One" a couple of years after I've determined they are not. Strange thing duality.
I have *never* gotten the same level of mental stimulation from SLE that I get from my dearest ILE :D. We can talk about everything under the sun for hours and hours. He even helped me work through some of my 'committment issues' by challenging them daily LOL. Sometimes he just bowls me over, like a full-frontal psychic blast that leaves me stunned and wondering "holy christ, what was that?!" I love it though - shakes me up and gets me out of myself.Quote:
one thing i really like about my current man is how we can talk endlessly about all kinds of interesting ideas. he has a pretty strong Ni, which i actually find totally helpful and interesting. now why would i find Ni helpful? theoretically, i would already have this as am embedded strength. but whatever, i am not sure i would get the same level of talking and intellectual consideration from my dual. so it's like a trade-off. but a good deal for me all things considered.
If I compare our interaction to the descriptions of Illusionary relations, I wouldn't say that we 'deactivate' each other. We just wear each other out and sort of (gladly) monopolize each others time because the interaction is so focused and intense. We do have to take a break from one another to deal with the other areas of our lives, or nothing would ever get done.
Great tangent! We seem to have a very similar mindset and I really enjoyed your insights.Quote:
wow i went off on a big tangent here to a simple question, but i've been wanting to share these ideas for awhile. lol. dunno....zenbrat...what do you think about this?
I think non-duals force us to develop inferior processes. Duals never challenge them or force us to put them to use. Looking at it that way, I think duality may negatively affect personal growth but positively support self-esteem.Quote:
Originally Posted by redbaron
Just for what it's worth Zenbrat I don't relate with the stating physical ailments about myself at all. Sometimes I'll say I'm tired to others if I really am tired... in those instances I'm not looking for sympathy at all, but mostly just want to be left alone to sleep and become my energetic self again. If anything I feel like the self depleting type who never complains about any physical ailments to the point where my body starts to give out on me. I feel like Si types would normally just see that and help me to relax and to worry about my health concerns and relaxing more.
Very, very insightful post zenbrat. I love to read your experiences w/ Duality ... seems like you've had quite a few? I'm really jealous.
So it really does feel very comfortable, but less of a spark? Hm isn't it supposed to like ... noone else really "gets" you in the long run & this is why you run to your dual when hell breaks loose and shit hits the fan? Tbqh, I'd rather have a real "hot" romance as opposed to comfort AT THIS STAGE in my life :P But I dunno, duality is strange to me.
I prefered her other one; the black-haired woman with red lips and (actual) white skin.Quote:
Originally Posted by cracka
Thanks :DQuote:
Originally Posted by EzraI prefered her other one; the black-haired woman with red lips and (actual) white skin.Quote:
Originally Posted by cracka
I wonder if a :Si: type would begin a conversation with "how are you feeling"? I tend to only ask if a person exhibits signs of stress or malaise. If ENTp only communicates these things when run down, maybe there aren't enough :Si: types in his midst to ask, so he's learned to volunteer?Quote:
Originally Posted by Suomea
OMG, don't be jealous HA! SLE's are... wicked and wonderful all at once. I was raised by Ti SLE's (father and grandfather), so I think I am naturally drawn to this male archetype.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
How can I explain it... it's not a romantic high. It's more of an 'inseperable' feeling but it's very comfortable. You just know that you can't stand living without them, and vice versa. Commitment is a sticking point, especially with Ti SLE's, but after a couple of years, they begin to realize how emotionally attached they are. When I was younger, I just didn't understand this. I always left around the 1 year mark. I was always surprised to find out how devastated they were - if you don't know the signs, it's easy to think the SLE isn't nearly as attached as you are.
exactly. "i hafta pay my bills, man, see ya later." lolQuote:
If I compare our interaction to the descriptions of Illusionary relations, I wouldn't say that we 'deactivate' each other. We just wear each other out and sort of (gladly) monopolize each others time because the interaction is so focused and intense. We do have to take a break from one another to deal with the other areas of our lives, or nothing would ever get done.
great post though zenbrat you've got similar insights as i do about illusionary.
tell me, though, is sigma right? that in illusionary IEI misses "that tasty Se"? or ILE misses that "sweet Si"?
I too find duality has alot of stumbling blocks and takes A LOT of effort to work out. I honestly can't see myself dating an ESTp girl in the near future, the best way to make duality work seems to be going out and doing things together but that's fucking expensive lol, likelihood of INFp or ESTp having stable income in their 20s is like 1/10th of 3%, divide that by 2 for the probability of both doing so. Really I like being lazy and find I can have just as much fun playing with imaginary/abstract things, thus my illusionary(ENTp) or Mirror(ENFj) seems like a more suitable option. I suppose in like 10 years or so though I'll have the motivation to maybe seek out my dual and save her from the sleazy grasp of the dead-end philanderers she seems so apt to cycle through... but not right now
It's been interesting observing the marriage of my brother and SIL. They're duals (he's INFp, she's ESTp) but they are in their mid-30s and still unsettled, career-wise. They work together VERY well (independent artists and make their living doing whatever my SIL is into at the moment) but it's hard to see them having a family because they are fly-by-the-seat-of their-pants people (economically and in terms of where they are living). I admire them very much on the one hand and I'm a bit jealous of their closeness. On the other hand, I fear that if one of them died, the other wouldn't know how to survive and might not even have the will to live. It's a pretty intense relationship yet very comfortable also. I love them both and it's great fun being with them. But I'm not sure I would trade what I have for what they have.
To me, ILE is 'arier', more verbal, lighter. It lifts me, and ILE meets me there mentally and physically, but SLE grounds me. I experience a feeling of being grounded, held firm - this is what I need.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively
Sometimes I feel like I am going to slide away or shake apart. ILE keeps me from sliding donward but can't keep me 'still'. I just spin and hum inside, out of sorts and shaky. Mental energy can run too high and I need to cling to something solid and unmoving.
ILE interaction is exhilirating and uplifting. SLE interaction is calming and balancing. Both are great, but very different.
Like...
I'm the wave. ILE is the boat. The boat is in motion. I crash into the boat and it crashes back. Back and forth - energy is continually produced. Eventually we just exhaust each other - but there's nothing within us to calm or restore the other.
I'm the wave. SLE is the shore. The shore is unmoving. I crash into the shore and spread out. The shore calms the force of the wave. It balances my energy and warms me. I am restored. The wave recedes and I find balance, congruency again.
That is seriously an awesome analogy. Fabulous. I need the shore....where o where is the shore.....Quote:
Originally Posted by zenbrat
i really think i am XLE then. infpman says i hold him accountable. that i ground us. he calms me down. and we both energize each other. i find his Ni to be both stimulating (when we are exchanging a lot of ideas) and soothing (when i've got a problem that i can't see the end of). he finds balance in my Ne/Se.
guess i'm a cross-type.
dual-type theory, baby. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively
werd baby.
LOL
so where are the tidal wavesQuote:
Originally Posted by zenbrat
I knew a guy who may have been my Illusionary, but I'm not sure. We got along extremely well, and we had similar interests. Our energy complemented each other; mine is frenetic and spurting/flashing, while his was more stable/moody/deep. We were very good friends - never physically or romantically involved, but I loved him and vice versa (in a non-romantic way). Very close. He viewed me somewhat as someone to look after, I believe. I don't know how we would have done romantically; I might have driven him crazy. Then again, perhaps not. I only got mad at him a couple times. Both times, he tried to clear things up, and I wasn't interested. Very patient guy. Anyway...Great to hang out with, wonderful to talk to, and definitely fun, even if he wasn't physically high-energy (though I never noticed it back then). I don't think we'd get the important things said, though, not at least without many efforts/a long deciding period or both. I don't know how much we'd get done, either. *shrugs* He was at least responsible enough to pull a B average. Can't say whether he'd motivate me.
I don't know whether that would be Illusionary or not.
sounds like a decent relationship....you have not tried to type him retrospectively?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis
I have to. We no longer speak...for complicated reasons not at all pertaining to our ability to get along.
I just realized an odd pattern with illusionaries. Maybe this is what the desciptions mean when they say that illusionaries "deactivate" each other?
At a distance, verbal/textual interaction with an illusionary is 'euphoric'. It makes me smile & laugh. It sorta revs my pulse and makes me feel mentally/emotionally elated. It's a humming sort of giddiness that leaves me feeling "chuckly" and warm toward my illusionary.
In person, there seems to be a deactivating physical quality; a physical energy drain for no apparent reason..
Whenever I hang out with my illusionary for more than 5 or 6 hours, we're utterly exhausted. Just lying around, feeling drained and mentally foggy. All of our plans for the day dissipate into nothingness - we can barely make it off the couch for food. We went to Oceanside CA and Tijuana once and ended up sleeping for 12-14 hours each day, even though we did almost *nothing* for the rest of the day. [When apart, we're both pretty active people though I couldn't hold a candle to the ILE's energy levels (LOL).]
My SLE friend has an illusionary that he sees on a fairly regular basis. After hanging out with her for a couple of days, he is almost catatonic and complaining of having zero energy. We hang out for a day or so and he's fine again - relaxed but not manic (like he is when we dont see each other for a while) or catatonic (like he is after too much time with his illusionary).
Duality descriptions claim that duals achieve a positive energy balance (i.e. restoration) through proximity, even without speaking. This is part of the draw - a need to be restored; to reclaim a feeling of safety and rest. From what I'm observing, illusionaries have the opposite physical effect.
interesting. i could see how things could go this way. don't know any SEI's to compare to and haven't noticed it myself with IEI's, more evidence of cross type.
i'd say that me and infpman could tend toward physical relaxation, but one of us will always do something to get us both going. i'm not sure how i'd explain this socionically. it's like i'll just start moving and getting stuff done. this motivates him to do the same. at other times, we'll be all lazy and relaxed and he'll be like c'mon let's get up, now! and we'll get moving on something. for example, i'm remembering a time when something had to be moved out of the basement and into the garage, he was lazy and like let's do it later and i'm like no, c'mon, let's do it right now or we'll blow it off later. then i just started moving and he did too.
we'll go to bed early a lot, but not so we can sleep. :p lol.
it seems like we have similar social needs, too. like i need about as much time with my friends as he needs with his. we need similar amounts of time together with other people, together alone and lazy, and together busy doing something. i would have to say though his energy level is lower than mine, but then again, his job is more physical and mine is more desk, so that could account for the difference.
Wow. This is SPOT on with ILEs and me. The "euphoria" is so addicting, we can not keep away from eachother for too long despite that physical draining thing you mention. It's sad really, that something so euphoric at first will never quite live up to it's idyllic promise, eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by zenbrat
But it's not that bad.. we are always drawn to eachother anyway and I do always feel warm and fuzzy towards ILEs. It gets awkward with too much time in person, almost as if there is this one barrier that is stopping us from being perfect together.
Are all relationships illusions ??
Is life an illusion ?????
God I sound like an INTp
It seems like you two have a wonderful relationship. You guys seems very balanced as individuals too, which can only make relating that much easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively
I need a TOTALLY JEALOUS smilie :D
yeah i love his ass. he loves mine too. we put each other in our places too. sometimes i know i need that, unfortunately. but i do feel very lucky to have found such a great guy after all that shit connected to my divorce from SLE man.Quote:
Originally Posted by zenbrat
keep your mind open about compatibility i say....life has a way of working on you and others to develop strengths you never thought you'd have....and don't forget the spiritual aspect, too. faith can help transcend compatibility failures if there are any.
but as you say zenbrat...you kinda like SLE and ILE, so from my point of view, it seems like you are already there! your perfect man could be on his way or right there in front of you :-)
It seems that duals miss each other in the beginning, and the extrovert is especially likely to overlook the introvert. Is it the same between illusionaries?
I'm guessing it would be, since your illusionary's creative function is the same as your dual's....
I love you too, songofsappho.
Blah. SLIs and ILIs are some of my favorite people, and I seem to know so few... maybe I really am missing them :? Any tips for spotting you guys? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by aixelsyd
Illusionary love :love:Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterpark
Chess Club, Wall Street, the Pentagon, and here, the internet.Quote:
Originally Posted by songofsappho
lolQuote:
Originally Posted by songofsappho
I don't quite understand this "overlooking" aspect so much, typically I don't find SiTe and I in areas of the same interests. I tend to encounter more NiTe if I had to make a guess, and I tend to have a strange interaction with them. This deals with influences other than type, but I feel like male NiTe at first don't really take me seriously when I talk about shared interests, but find me entertaining just to watch or almost toy with. There's something special about the attention of an NiTe though, similar to SiTe in a sense, that is nice to have when it's in moderation. I tend to prefer the company of my semi-dual (SiFe), but it's possible I've only met NiTe men who happen to be jerks.
I hope NOT!Quote:
Originally Posted by songofsappho
I think overlooking can happen at first, but I have two illusionary female friends both of whom I enjoy very much.
no ime, quite the opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by songofsappho
In groups you are automatically drawn to eachother. they feel safe or known for some reason.
I think I can spot my dual fairly easily now, at least the female ones. Illusionary I tend to get drawn to in a crowd, not needing to spot them at first, it's more natural I think. I suppose in this context we are working towards the same thing, which is said to be of help in illusionary relations, in this instance the same thing is socialising.