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:pQuote:
Originally Posted by LokiVanguard
Hmm i would like to say that probablly when anyone posts something they have their own agenda, but i didn't want to portray him in a bad light. Its hard for me to replicate his clear cut and logical points. Plus it is an emotionally charged issue for him as it was about his sick brother ;)
I've met people like this though, who basically use the logic "well if it worked for him, then it'll work for me too!" instead of "If it worked for him, it might work for me too". They basically stick to whatever thought they had beforehand, even if new evidence might come up that suggests otherwise.
But fuck, that must be some pretty awesome juice.
The word on the street is that it rox. Ive heard its even better than these guys juiceQuote:
Originally Posted by LokiVanguard
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRTSZ...eature=related
I don't believe in any of this type of crap. And I wouldn't give a fuck if someone (anyone) told me that Goji juice has (or hasn't) worked for them. It would mean nothing to me. The only thing I could be interested in hearing would be a logical (scientific/medical) explanation of why and how it has worked. Like what ingredient had this or that effect on this or that aspect of the problem, and why.
Now LokiVG wouldn't want to meet me either. I am worse than ISTjs lol
I don't know, I mean, wasn't there a logical/scientific explanation for why cholesterol (esp from eggs) was super bad for you?
Now they're flip flopping and saying "oh oh no! there's GOOD and BAD cholesterol!"... I'm like why the fuck didn't you say that in the fucking first place.
I just tend to think a lot of times scientists (especially nutritionists) are talking out of their ass.
haha This reminds me of one of my old bosses who was obsessed with Penta water. Went around spreading the gospel of engineered water, but nevermind the fact that he was on 10 different drugs and drank every night. Water, though, that'll kill 'ya!
(I'm not drawing any sort of parallel between the two of them - my boss was beyond psycho - this thread just brought up some amusing memories)
It's all about business. They must have that attitude in the media in order to support the food products marketplace. Products with cholesterol must be sold too, you know.Quote:
Originally Posted by LokiVanguard
Yeah, that does make a hell of a lot of sense. It's gotten so bad that I always ask myself now "does ANYONE get a profit from this...". If so, the message is usually pretty warped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterpark
I read about it. It appears to be rich in anti-oxidants and vitamins and has 19 amino acids.
Ah damn, if it got to 20 I'd buy it )c:Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
(c:Quote:
Originally Posted by PotatoSpirit
Holy cow 19... that has to trump even KFC. It only has 11 herbs and species (i mean spices). When he gets it we will monitor his levels and if my dad turns into a man with super human strength i will let you all know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
You are the son my father never had Loki. (semi serious).Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Not necessarily. Science is inexact and often can't always account for every contingency. Individual genetics is really still quite a wildcard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterpark
Goji juice sounds like the biggest gimmick ever. The backstory of a stupid berry from the Himalayas is too much of a fantasy. Like when they were searching for a cure for aids in the rain forest in the mid-late 1990's. Pop culture produces the most bizarre marketing angles. If it was such a miracle, it would be distributed for free like the polio vaccination in the 1950's.
Anti-oxidants by themselves are useless, it has been proved over and over again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Diets rich in anti-oxidant foods are healthy, but who knows why that is... could be something else that happens to be in the same foods, which may or may not act together with anti-oxidants.
Yeah, I do it for your neck problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by anamericancer
.
LOL, your signature is brilliant Loki =D
I have observed closely two IEE-LSI relationships.
The first one concerns a LSI guy and an IEE woman. They are of almost exactly the same age, and they have been working in the same place (an university lab) for decades. To outside observers, they seem like good friends, and often do things like joint birthday parties and the like. The IEE likes him and often jokes with him, and he likes it.
However, although he likes her, he is sort of bewildered by her. Her husband left her and they were having a very difficult divorce. Talking about it with him, the LSI said, "well to tell you the truth I'd also have divorced her. She'd drive anyone crazy. She keeps forgetting appointments, she keeps forgetting where she puts things, and she's full of crazy ideas like buying 'green coffee' or refusing to buy things online because it 'keeps people apart' or the like. I keep wondering if anyone can actually be like that, or if not some kind of mask she wears for whatever reason".
The second story concerns a place I worked at. The plant manager was a LSI guy, and the main salesman, an IEE guy. The IEE kept coming with new ideas which were shot down by the LSI as impractical. IMO each of them was right in about 50% of the cases. The LSI seemed to see the IEE as slightly nuts but respected his drive and skills as a salesman; the IEE was sort of terrified of the LSI even as finding him uncooperative and pessimistic.
This illustrates a good point. Conflict, and bad relations in general, are not so much "I hate this person" as ":confused: How could anyone ever be like this?" We all subconsciously want to believe that other people value the same things as us - or consciously believe that they should.Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat
That is very inmature, sorry i am not defiending my dual or anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
Yes, I was just thinking the same thing as I read Expat's story. That's how the conflict relationships end up working out where I work. It's more a matter of disagreeing with how people do things and wondering why they think that's a remotely intelligent approach to a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by thehotelambush
I wonder how differently would an SLI take this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat
That and things of the like are crazy indeed. Pure laughable nonsense. :p It reminds me of someone who told me that porn degrades love or something....Quote:
refusing to buy things online because it 'keeps people apart' or the like.
Wow, that's really random about the egg. I also would have no clue why she was angry. I'd just consider it a matter of personal preference.
I only know one LSI closely enough to conflict at all - my best friend's father. He gets very irritable in traffic and it sets me on pins and needles. Other times I'm just not sure how to 'be' around him. At first it's fine because we can rely on social pleasantries and discuss whatever has been going on in each other's lives up to that point, but continuing conversation after that is difficult. I don't think he'd enjoy my random associations of thought. I say whatever comes into my head and it can be a very large jump. Oftentimes I'll say something completely absurd and I do it purely for a laugh, but I don't think he'd understand my sense of humor at all, so I just turn into a generic 'politely social' person. I have more open conflict with EIEs. Not my friends, but clients and coworkers.
Unfortunately, two of my cousins who are half-brothers are LSI and IEE. They don't particularly like eachother, and they fought a HELL of a lot when they were young. As in literally nearly all the time they were together they fought. Back then, I assumed it was just normal for siblings to fight like that (considering I had no siblings of my own) but looking back on it, and knowing now their types, it's pretty obvious to me that it was more than mere sibling rivalry. I don't really have any detailed stories or anything, although I know the LSI perceives the IEE as being weird, since the IEE is, by many standards, eccentric (which is actually one of the things I like about him). I get on with both of them, but I prefer the IEE and generally always have done. I suppose some of that is to do with who they are individually though.
PORN FTW!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterpark
I'd say that this, to a degree, sums up my interactions with the IEE I know. The random thought process is often funny, but eventually becomes tiring, leaving me wanting to just scream out "WTF?! How did we get here from what we were just talking about?? Can I get a second to catch up please??:confused:" In return, i'd say his only problem with LSIs is thier need for "everything to make sense".Quote:
Originally Posted by tiny_dancer
There are never any major heated arguements between us, just disagreements over the most petty of things. For instance, as a school project our earth science teacher had us go to the Museum of Natural History. Our group, which consisted of an SLI, the IEE, an IEI, someone whose type im unsure of(but might be an SLI) and myself had decided to get some food before we started working. When we got to the food court everyone minus my IEI friend had decided that the prices were way too high(it's Manhattan, what do you expect?) Sheepishly following the IEE, the other two decided they'd go with him to the pizza shop we had went to the last time, but only after about five minutes of arguing with me over me decision to stay and eat there instead of wasting time going somewhere else even though it was alot more expensive(I didn't even have enough money to pay for everything I had, so my IEI had to add $2 to the money I had.)
This movie is centered around a beautiful example of IEE-LSI conflict. Batman, as LSI, fights to protect the stability of society, while adhering to a strict moral code, and the Joker, as IEE, plays vast psychological experiments to reveal people's "true essences", eschewing the attempt to assign his actions any kind of logical justification or plan (Ti + Ni). He introduces chaos by showing the inadequacy of society to cope with things that do not obey its preconceived expectations. But the message of the movie was that, although morality and societal structures (Ti) may not represent anything permanent or universal (Ne), they are important nonetheless. It's a somewhat Nietzschean philosophy.
There is also the Smilexian concept of rationality: Bruce Wayne is defined by his object of thought. He is Batman because he has to be, because people need him to be Batman.
That law vs. chaos analysis seems about right.
Dark Knight was Gamma v.s. Alpha.
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitta
yesQuote:
Originally Posted by Logos
Batman was clearly a force representing law, order, and Beta mentality. That was as plain as day.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitta
Which I said in another post is possible, Gammas represent laws and order though, they just aren't aggressively producing. This is actually a hard thing to say for Batman, I just don't think hes the type of person represented in the movie that likes eccentricity. To me, he seemed overly stable, and he felt as if he was actually doing the service of the people. Theres a lot of things that make me think Beta though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Logos
Also, to me, its almost as if Nolan wanted everyone to feel sympathy for the Joker's goals. From, the thing that *spoiler*....... batman did with the cellphones to spy on each other, to the Joker's horrifying dialogs with Batman, it was as if you were actually given the option of understanding the Joker. People say that the Joker was psychotic and other things(and he appeared so by his mannerisms and stuff), but the Joker's message wasn't really incorrect.
You are mistaken: societal laws and order are more representative of Beta than Gamma.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitta
No, actually they are both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Logos
Difference between Gamma and Beta is that Gammas are about following the law, and Betas are about creating the law.
The Joker and Batman are both right, and to me Joker isn't really a villain because he's so kick-ass. I was siding with the campy, fun-loving Joker more than I was the serious, stoic Batman... that's for sure.
Technically didn't Two-Face kill more people than the Joker anyway? The Joker is more like a Jigsaw or Hannibal Lector or psychological villain and I love those.
Joker was a victim obviously, because why else would he do that 'social experiment' at the end. He wanted proof that humanity was good- and he seemed to soften a bit when it happened. The Joker rocks. He's like the bad boy you go and fuck and not tell your mom about.
I understand you may think the Joker was cool and all, but how in the world can you sympathize with someone who clearly has Antisocial Personality Disorder?
Though Batman shows aspects of having Paranoid and maybe even Schizotypal personality disorders.
I was wondering - from LSIs' points of view, what annoys you about IEEs? From my experiences listening to an LSI bemoan an IEE's behaviour, it's usually to do with the IEE being disorganised, having to wing things at the last minute. But it seems to work for them, so I don't see what the problem is.
IEEs - how do LSIs make you feel when they push you?
Cheers.Quote:
Originally Posted by dee
End of thread.
It seems to me (assuming my typings are correct) that it's kinda one-sided in that the LSI thinks of the IEE as inconsequential like you said - even simply stupid - while the IEE is sort of just at a loss as to where he's going wrong. Feeling that he can never win. I guess it seems to me that the IEE takes it personally - that he's just never going to live up to the LSI's standards, but at the same time doesn't really blame the LSI or expect the LSI to change .... whereas the LSI naturally assumes the problems are all the IEE's and will try to make him see the light 'til the cows come home.Quote:
Originally Posted by jxrtes
I had a relationship with an LSI for almost a year.
The pushiness was unneccesary because I work better under pressure/time crunch. Of the two LSI's Ive come in contact with, one I loved, the other I dislike heavily. From my point of view, he sticks too rigidly to conventional norms, and doesn't question the world around him. Somewhat robotic, not wanting to take chances, seems scared of life. boring.
Thats what bothered me.
Also close-minded.
uhhhhhhfgf.
When we were younger i wasn't a huge fan of her because i said to my parents that she was bossy. Anyway i haven't seen her much for years but shes now moved to my city a couple of days ago. I saw on facebook that it was her birthday so i rang her up and said i would take her out for dinner.
Anyway so we were sitting there and im listening to her talk about variable interest rates and shit like that and her house hunting. All about her. Then shes talking about how she was the acting manager of her last role and how shes now has a huge pay rise. She was talking about how much guidance everyone else needed and how she was telling them what to do. She called herself my rich bitch cousin. :?
So anyway i payed for her dinner it wasn't that cheap. $65 + a few beers and i go to catch the bus and realise the next one isn't for an hour and a half. I mention this to her and she says thats a bummer im getting a lift. Im like oh you live in casurina too dont you. I dont typically like to impose on people but 1 hour and a half wait in a 90% humid climate when everything is closed is not cool. Finally she offers me a lift (they lived about 5 mins away from where im staying). Anyway im trying to talk to her in the car but she is totally not listening and playing with her other cousins baby in the back seat. We arrive and i try to point out my room to her and she doesn't respond too busy with baby. I hadn't even seen her for like 8 years lol. I had to say bye about 3 times before she said bye to me.
So now shes just poked me on facebook..... :rolleyes:. And she tells me how she loves me :whistle:
She said she wants to come to any uni parties i have. Man no way she is ruining my harmony too many times again. I actually have no fear telling a relative i dont like them lol.
/Rant
wow, she does sound like a bitch! But I've actually had a lot of female friends who are ISTJs are are really nice. Of course, we didn't always agree, but they were generally friendly and wouldn't do things like that! That is just rude to not offer a ride. And rich bitch should've picked up the tab if she keeps bragging like that.
You paid for her dinner and she wont offer you a ride? even her Dual is ashame of her! my goodness that ISTj cousin of yours.
This kinda sucks if you're struggling with shit. I hate people that come out with this sort of bullshit..but it all depends on it's delivery, it may have been OK. For instance there's a girl I know who's been taking an interest in me in a romantic way and i'm considering going out with her: she talks about financial plans and variable rates and jobs and stuff-she's on the ball and tbh for me i'm personally sick of women I know being shit with money.Quote:
Originally Posted by meatburger
Well, you did offer to take her out for her birthday, but it is kinda shit she didn't offer you a lift straight off. As to paying you attention, well, she had been with you for a while and babies are babies, they take up time and attention..you could have played with baby too ;)Quote:
So anyway i payed for her dinner it wasn't that cheap. $65 + a few beers and i go to catch the bus and realise the next one isn't for an hour and a half. I mention this to her and she says thats a bummer im getting a lift. Im like oh you live in casurina too dont you. I dont typically like to impose on people but 1 hour and a half wait in a 90% humid climate when everything is closed is not cool. Finally she offers me a lift (they lived about 5 mins away from where im staying). Anyway im trying to talk to her in the car but she is totally not listening and playing with her other cousins baby in the back seat. We arrive and i try to point out my room to her and she doesn't respond too busy with baby. I hadn't even seen her for like 8 years lol. I had to say bye about 3 times before she said bye to me.
At least you made a good impression lol. Does she have a boyfriend? Prolly just wants to come to uni parties with you to meet a guy, but, I do think she likes you, just that from your short text she sounds like someone who is used to getting her own way.Quote:
So now shes just poked me on facebook..... :rolleyes:. And she tells me how she loves me :whistle:
She said she wants to come to any uni parties i have. Man no way she is ruining my harmony too many times again. I actually have no fear telling a relative i dont like them lol.
/Rant
Oh.. And as she is Beta, it's very possible her talk about being rich and a manager and all that is just bullshit, or at least a large amount of it. Beta's like to keep up appearances and "with the Jones'".
Oh, horse shit. Anyone can be a conformist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops
@meatburger: not sure if any of that relates to her type (sounds like she could be an enneagram 1), but while reading it, the image of Rachel McAdams in Mean Girls popped into my head, lol.
What's horse shit is that your going around this forum like some sort of militant internet addicted self appointed socionic police. I've said my piece. It's correct and it stays.Quote:
Originally Posted by strrrng
Well, I know most of us are calling her mean but maybe it's because she just did not know the "proper" thing to do, that is, to offer you a ride as a pay back.Quote:
Originally Posted by meatburger
I do not know if this is quadra related but I just assume that a favour will be returned sometime in the future. Sometimes I forget there were any such favours owed to me and sometimes not. On the other hand, I usually remember when I owe someone.
I think in her case it might be that she is truly inconsiderate, or it just didn't cross her mind and she couldn't immediately catch the hint that you somehow expected a ride from her, which you have the right to. In sum, I am saying that it might be an innocent mistake. She is, after all, showering a lot of attention to you, meatburger. :)
If we want to get into Socionics then maybe: Si is devalued, so she won't be able to detect this particular need/want of yours. Lack of Fi and Fe-seeking would be she does not know the 'proper'/'right' thing to do in this situation and would have probably appreciated it if you just demanded/asked for it out loud rather than through implication.
Well you are right there. She invited me to her house for dinner last night :oops:. Perhaps i was being a bit harsh and mean to her im a bit prone to that lol. I wasn't totally upset about the lift in itself, it was more of the prospect of her being ISTj lol. That is something in socionics that makes me a bit sad, that i will likely have big problems connecting with certian people.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Greeter
I will have to wait for an event that all the betas on campus are hanging out and invite her and hope she takes over on hitting on some guys. Getting her laid could be a step in the right direction.
Same here, although I come gradually to the final conclusion that I can't relate to everyone, and to do so will just me more harm in the long run. At least socionics explains why.Quote:
Originally Posted by meatburger
Still, you'd probably get on with your cousin OK if it's occasional interaction, rather than more indepth or regular interaction.
Lol.Quote:
I will have to wait for an event that all the betas on campus are hanging out and invite her and hope she takes over on hitting on some guys. Getting her laid could be a step in the right direction.
I hate to dredge up an old post (honestly!) but seeing as I've just experienced this I actually would like to discuss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubicon
What you've said here is in my opinion right on the money. The IEE is thought of as inconsequential until some kind of snapping point with the LSI. Then bam, the LSI basically lets the IEE know that they'd been "putting up with them," that the relationship (in the broadest definition) was merely pretence on their behalf. No explanation, just "I don't like you, go away." -- which is the worst thing you can do to an IEE! At least if you give reasons we can work with that, figure out what it was exactly that x person didn't like. But by that point the LSI really doesn't care anymore. =)
This is my experience and it's only one. I really thought this person actually liked me but turns out I was wrong. And I definitely took it personally! Just because I wanted to know "what the fuck did I do?"
Anyone else had experiences that they can relate?
Why not just not interact with the LSI and leave them alone? It's really not their fault to not accept you, that is their choice.... I am not criticizing anybody, but I think that's how we can avoid conflict with our conflictors.
I have no problem with that. It was more just the unexpectedness of the assault. I really didn't see it coming. If I had seen it coming I would have avoided them altogether. I'm not bitter towards them, there's not much point. I just found it interesting how offguard I was. And now am curious as to others experiences. =)Quote:
Originally Posted by 07490
By this I didn't mean to try to "fix" the relationship or anything. Just to satisfy some inner curiosity as to what the actual problem was. Perhaps I'm not really making sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrong Way Ticket
Numbers is my conflictor and HE KICKS ASS! :love:
:o
Speaking for myself, I get really uncomfortable with spontaneity or randomness. This doesn’t mean I’m strictly adhering to a daily schedule or anything like that but when things are very unfamiliar or undefined, I don’t know what to do with myself and will either do something to define it, find something to work towards or completely zone out. At worst, I will totally escape the situation. What I choose to do will depend on how important I evaluate the situation to be.
I’m not sure how one-sided the relationship is though. IEEs really misinterpret my Ti. They have this sensitivity to it and think of it as an absolute when there’s more underneath it all.
With that said, I keep in regular contact with an IEE and while I restrain myself around her I think we do value each other and we do appreciate each other looking out for the 8th function to keep that sort of respect.
You really do kick ass too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterpark
I think my randomness was the most offputting Which I can understand if not appreciate. I still have a lot of admiration for the LSI in question though. I find the conflictor dynamics as interesting as they are frustrating.Quote:
Originally Posted by shakealittle
Oh, well thanks J. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by 07490
Well, in my experience with LSIs, before I knew about socionics, I thought they were stupid and that something was fundamentally wrong with them. Like, do you really need specific instructions to operate a postal meter? And can't you figure out on your own why that rule doesn't apply or is unnecessary here? They seemed to think I was an undisciplined rebel.
This hits strangely close to home to me, but I can't think of any specific instances where this has happened. I just have this strong sense that this has happened to me a number of times in my life and it happened just like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubicon
My dad is an LSI and my brother is IEE. He always lectures my brother on things like how he shouldn't let troublemakers into his life, how he needs to get his life together, how he shouldn't be rude to other people, there really is no end to the amount of advice he has to give my brother. I suppose it doesn't help that he still lives at home after 8 years of going to college without a degree.
Of course he has lots of advice to give, but never offers any concrete help with anything, which I'm assuming is what he really needs. I can't really blame him for not trying to really help because my brother will never give a straight answer for anything, although I can guess he doesn't in order to avoid another lecture, and he's really flaky, and never commits to anything.
I dunno, maybe growing up with an angry LSI can really hurt an IEE's ego.
Would have messed me up, no doubt about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by fear of sleep
My dad is an LSI. I feel sorry for your brother lol. My dad is always telling me what i need to do in life. Always telling me i should use filing cabinets and think about what i say before i say it. He watches everything i do like a hawk, ready to take over when i screw it up. I have had problems with confidence and im sure its partially to do with that. In your case the poor bugger also has a supervisor for a brother. At least for me i have a lovely ISFj mother who kept me sane.Quote:
Originally Posted by fear of sleep
And here kind of lies the problem. The LSI will rape the ENFp's life while the ENFp doesn't really inflict themselves on the LSI at all. By the way i agree with what Slackermom said about LSI's not always being as intelligent as they seem. My dad rang me up a few nights ago with computer problems and he bought a new keyboard. I asked him if he reset his computer and he didn't think of that. This type of thing does happen constantly, although he always makes me look dumb too with the practical things.
My cousin is LSI and i secretly dislike her a lot. Basically she talks about herself and her job or shes telling me off. Im sure its partially projection because she reminds me of my dad. Like if i muck up or do something when we are out its always these little digging comments. One of these days i wont take it any more im sure.
With all this being said i know my dad tries. Hes a very good provider and man. Basically in my household i didn't use any Ne, so i just developed superior Fi. My Ne has probablly been handicapped but at least i can deal with people very well.
I had problems with an LSI at work. It came to a head when the LSI screamed at me and told me to fuck off out of the blue. A full scale barny ensued, my gloves were off. This resulted in an uneasy truce.
Anyway, some staff changes came to pass, where there was more delta types, and an ESFp. A lot of people made fun of the LSI, who's now on sick leave for work related stress. Oh dear.
I sometimes get the impression that LSI's can piss everyone off.
Hey Cyclops ;)
They aren't too bad on the inside i do recognise that. Dad cried when i left home so he is quite soft on the inside.
These days i dont really mind. It always kind of annoys me but i just do most of it to appease him. Typically the ideas he has are in someway beneficial to me or the family so its actually good for me to do them. Sometimes his ideas are annoying though, like he will tell me to do something that i percieve as clearly unncessesary. Like he will tell me that i need to photocopy and print out a document that is in my email, or ring an organisation and ask a question that im 95% clear on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubicon
A couple of times in my life he has pushed me quite heavily to do things that i did not want to do. Things that actually hurt me emotionally and physically. Kept incessantly pushing me. Recently i resisted him head on about something i was very clear about. The trouble arised when he could not see that what he thinks is right is not right for someone else. In all honesty he probablly deserved to be punched in the mouth for it.
for some reason ISTj girls tend to want to be friends w/ me.
I know one ISTj guy I can't stand. He talks overly loudly (even in a quiet area) and sort of raises up his chin and looks down at you. It comes across as insecurity to me. He then says absolute things. And he likes to start sentences with "No, no, there is no way they would ever consider XYZ" and then will relate some historical information to that "because in the state of Kentucky, they voted to do XYZ back in 1992." I find it kind of boring and usually irrelevant to what is going on NOW. He's often wrong as well, as he leaves out some info in his Ti system (that may be outdated, etc.)
But the ISTj girls, I can handle because when they say something absolute, I convert it to a softer statement in my mind. So... "Mexican people are the best salsa dancers" becomes "some Mexican people are the best salsa dancers, and others may or may not be good at salsa dancing." That way, I keep myself from jumping at them to start arguing. I think they actually mean the latter sometimes, but can't phrase it openly enough. I don't mind their structured approach because I don't get that close to them. I mostly go and do "fun" things out in public with them. I do appreciate their loyalty, logic and toughness.
At one point I was friends w/ a very unhappy ISTj girl who had this Ti system of all guys being jerks who want to screw you over and they're only good for their $ (and she continued to choose jerks). So I told her she was wrong and we talked about spirituality -- I explained I was only doing this because she was a good friend and I cared. She actually appreciated it and it helped her. Then she dated a poor starving artist who actually loved her (prob an INFp). They didn't stay together, but it was a first for her. And she also could only paint copies from photographs and I helped her loosen up a bit and do some more creative paintings and she started to paint more from the heart. But then I got tired of it all and we lost touch.
There is a new woman at the post office who is an LSI. No matter how I try, I always seem to do something that irritates her. But since I know about socionics I can sort of explain it a bit.
For example, I told her that I wasn't receiving notifications for packages. That's a statement... kind of Te. I wasn't implying that she wasn't doing her job or anything, but she seemed to take it personal. With grinding teeth she allowed me to check the book.
Funny thing is that I've done so a million times before. I use the mail a lot and everyone at the post office knows me. It is this particular woman that I can't really get along with. I've come to the conclusion that Fe valuers are quite sensitive to raw statements, generally applying negative connotations when there are none.
Whatever, I get anxious speaking to this woman and I suspect it works the same both ways.
Yes so and I've experienced it. Not saying its the case but you should be able to tell yourself.
why? why? am I rebelling against socionics? Of course all the burlesque dancers were ENFjs. I was totally out of my quadra.
You're currently experiencing inner conflict, probably due to an excessive prevalence of Beta waves in your brain.
you are walking into a trap. soon he will bed you and be done with you
you are walking into a tarp. soon it will be over your bed and you will be done with it.
http://www.survival-school.org/Portals/10/tarp2.jpg
*hugs*Quote:
Originally Posted by jewels
Come on back to delta land.
in nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritūs Sancti... :p
LOL. I like the tarp/trap thing.
It may have been a trap that I narrowly escaped! I was not overwhelmed by Fe burlesque-ness so I was able to avoid it...this time. Don't think there will be another time.
and now, back to our regularly scheduled quadra. ISTps!!! I need some lack of emotional expression in my life.
Lol, that's a funny way of putting it, but I know exactly what you mean. It can be fun and amusing for a little, but there's such thing as too much. (I think that's why dry humor attracts me.)Quote:
Originally Posted by jewels
All the problems I had with my confidence as a kid was my LSI mom's fault!
How funny because my dad is INTj, and he bought us kids filing cabinets from a young age (like maybe 6 or 7 years old) and we were expected to keep files of everything, lol. I just assumed all kids had filing cabinets, but maybe not? haha.Quote:
Originally Posted by meatburger
I can think of two instances, which I feel if anything help validate my self-typing.
-I was 10 years old and was staying over at a cousin's house; he and his friends had this courtesy thing while playing Halo, where after getting a kill, you had to allow the person to respawn and get his weapons back or something like that. For whatever reason, probably as a joke, I decided to ignore it and from then on it turned into this downward spiral where I ended up doing some things that were really stupid and passive-agressive retrospect. I hate myself for it and pretty much deserved most of it. I was a pretty stupid kid. I think I even joked about how it'd be a good idea to hit some girl who was bothering us which he called me out for - just shameless. It got so bad that his dad pretty much urged me to leave because we were stressing him out, and it's all kind of ironic considering the fact that he'd been my favorite cousin up until that point, and we were always being set up on play-dates from an early age. It was also around the time of the 2004 election and he got pissed off at me for naively supporting John Kerry, along with a bunch of other little things.
-There was also a dean/teacher/coach in highschool who I had an awkward dynamic with. I originally met him as a teacher during a workshop before my freshman year. I was really shy at the time and once school started we would pass by me and ask me how my day was and I would just nod awkwardly, thinking he'd take it as a greeting. He took that personally and even brought up a few years later. There was also another time where he'd try to engage me in small talk, by talking about his travel experiences which were somewhat relevant since he'd noticed that I had taken an interest in Southern European culture based on the questions I would ask my history teacher during after-school hours (they shared the classroom), and I just tuned him out completely which was really shitty on my part. As if nothing he said interested me. There were also a bunch of other instances that rubbed me the wrong way and perhaps him also, which I don't really care to get in-depth into. Some involve him repeatedly telling me take off my hat during a school basketball game, calling me a groupie in front of the team as a joke in order to liven up the atmosphere, asking me why I wander the halls with my friend instead of going down to the lunchroom, etc. There was one instance however when he confronted this one ILE who was a jackass directly about a bullying incident he was a part of, involving a freshman girl 4 years younger than him, which was honestly really satisfying to watch. He actually seemed kind of nice and worthy of respect from a distance so it's weird that I would be put-off by him.
again,maybe that's an age thing. I still feel bad, as well ,about having been so awkward, pushing people away while they were trying to built some sort of rapport. In terms of functions, you may be a Fe ego who's not developed their (their? D= ) strong points in such a poised way and feel bad at being "bad" at what they're supposed to naturally be "good" at .You perceive all those interpersonal nuances/dynamics and how you could have acted on them in much better ways but didn't and you kind of hate yourself about it. (totally not sure but) maybe that's something an ENFp or Se ego would bother much less about , but apparently you still linger on those moments. maybe you should give yourself more opportunities to work on those aspects and see how that goes. I mean, after a while you don't really walk in the dark, since you get to know people better,noticing patterns and knowing better what fits the occasion. Also wtf@old man getting pissed off at 10 yo for supporting other party.maybe he was mad at ur parents?
also,your avatars remind me of raf simons imagery
Ha, thanks. I was actually still talking about my cousin, who was 9-10.Quote:
Originally Posted by sevjenn
I came here searching informations about IEE-LSI relationship, and I think other people may get here in the future.
So, I'm resuming this to add my experience.
"Conflicting" could sound exaggerated at first as a term for this relationship, but going deeper you understand better "why" and at what extent they are conflicting.
To me these people are better when they are just friends (so, when they have not a love or job relation) and so their main characteristics don't collide.
It looks as an happarent duality when this conditions are met.
Very often I noticed that IEE uses LSI's logical structure to fill their Ti Polr, taking LSI's thougths as "Te" material for their mob, despite the latter may be erroneus and not "Te-derived". Maybe this could be due to the fact LSI expresses his structure also through Se (IEE's role), so it is perceived by him a lot similiar to a Te product.
Making this short: they see in LSI's logic a truth and easily trust it (if they have a good friendship with them and the IEE respects him).
On the other side, the LSI may feel very safe near this type, because IEE is gregarious and not judgmental in general. The IEE gives to the LSI the impression that there can be no inconvenience in dealing with them, assuring their Ni.
However, the structural problems are very clear when the relationship is more intense.
The IEE is "too" open to possibilities, often not filtering out the positive ones from the negative ones and "trying them out" sacrificing the judgment on datas avable. This is not a very appreciated method by the LSI, who prefers to maximize everything also according to its principles: "it is useless to start something that, according to all present datas, is very likely to fail".
On the other hand, the IEE thinks that the LSI is too unwilling to experiment with new things and letting himself go.
What you can't expect even in friendship:
When the IEE tells the LSI his love-related problems, he will receive very cold and aromantic, as well as purely logical, advices. How to go about regaining dignity and honor lost; how to think about how meaningless a relationship with a person is given the information that promised "bad" from the start, ecc.
The word "dignity" was not random: the LSI probably did in the past the same choices the IEE is doing now, but has learned that it is not possible to missteps, or he would find himself in risky situations where his weak feeling could be exposed. He knows that he is fragile, which is why he preserves himself and advises others to do so too.
This is going to be written from my own point of view and experience.
I think IEEs like my Si, and I appreciate their Fe. I can help them in day to day matters, have good aesthetic sense, and this they seem to like. I like the energy they give off in social situations (making jokes, poking fun at others).
But ultimately, I can't take the discussions I have with them very seriously, as they don't seem to weigh their words very carefully to say the least. I had one IEE lie to me about her relational status, which in itself seems unrelated to type or Ti inhibiting. I don't think honesty is type related. But the way she went about it (letting the possibility of a relationship float ambiguously) was pretty Ne, which is something I couldn't protect myself against. Ultimately, I'm not comfortable with ambiguous situations, that is, situations where the endgame is not clearly communicated.
I've had some decent IEE friends, usually chill and non-imposing yet sociable. I think if it stays at the stage of just casually hanging out, it can be fine. But when things become more demanding, the communication feels imprecise and ambiguous.
When it comes to romance, I like to know where things are going, and settle for someone, IEEs prefer keeping options open which makes me feel unsafe, not in a physical sense, but more like "when will they decide on ME". I read in Strat's description of IEE that Huxley prefers to give the impression of attracting as many people as possible. While it would never occur to me to do something like this, this is how SLIs pick up on a "worthwhile" person potential-wise, according to this description. With EIEs I know they want me, if that's the case; with IEEs, I'm just another possibility. IME.
I actually relate to this. I would never start something unless I have sufficient data confirming it's likely to work and that there are no obvious obstacles. For instance, I wouldn't move around or swap furniture unless I've measured everything and envisioned the new layout both in terms of looks and practicality. Someone who's going to come and say "hey, lets move this over here and see how it looks" and starts moving things around without a plan or without considering practical implications would piss the crap out of me. In the best case, I would see something like this as a stupid waste of energy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesri
On the flip side, I would sometimes plan out an entire project to the smallest detail, and when I go ahead and implement it, stuff I didn't foresee comes up and the project fails or doesn't accomplish what I wanted it to accomplish. In this type of scenario, I get disappointed and start beating myself up for not being smart or competent enough. But then, someone like the IEE you described may come along and say things like "hey, don't worry about it, it's no big deal" or "so what if it didn't work, life is all about trial and error; you had a good idea and you tried to materialize it, which is all that matters" which can be psychologically liberating.
I don't think I'm necessarily attracted to people who maximize their likability and want to attract as many people as possible. Even less so if giving "an impression" of likeability/amicability is what matters to them. I also don't like feeling like a disposable option in any form of a serious relationship.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evergreen
Yes I can imagine that would actually come off “fake” to most SLIs. Also, IEEs seem to emphasize “authenticity” so forcing an impression of “likeability/amicability” would probably go against the goal, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Park
I don't know. Most of these things are very broad and generic. I don't think authenticity is type related, but different types would probably go about it in different ways. As for presenting yourself in certain ways and being image-conscious or image-oriented, I guess would correlate better with certain enneagram types, such as 3s, and certain pathologies like narcissism, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by EIE H
A lot of issues first stem from IEE. I think a central conflict theme here is all about internal sensing.
IEE recruit helpers and LSI quickly sees the nature of that game and refuses to play. After seeing that there is no horizon, always new ones, always some new thing being opened up and started, the currency IEE is able to pay does not cover the costs of the constant aggravation.
"What's in it for me?"
"Why should I help if you are not going to help yourself?"
Similar to LSE activation, except LSI sees little merit at all in being logistical support for "a flake".
Yeah I agree. I'll add more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Park
Some authors, like Niffweed, or those from the WSS crowd, really made this idea popular: that somehow seeking authenticity in oneself or others was connected to valuing Fi. I just don't see it.
The term "authenticity" might mean different things to different people. But even if one does value authenticity in oneself, and defines it as "being true to one's values", this doesn't mean the person is Fi valuing. This is really primitive socionics. That just because a person says "I have my own set of values" people jump up and down saying "Fi". What a load of shit.
First of all, people can say what they want, it doesn't say anything about where their energy is focused. Self-reported information is pretty useless if taken at face value.
Second, having a set of values one adheres to could very well be something related to Ti or Fe.
Hell, rationality in general makes one define oneself in a certain way, and the stronger the rationality, the more a person defines themselves in a rigid way, which usually is the way they want to see themselves at that moment and not the way they actually are in a deeper sense.
I think that having a set of well-defined values/principles and being relatively non-compromising about them is closely related to both Fi and Ti. It's just that one is primarily concerned about people and relationships, whereas the other is concerned about logical structure and inanimate systems. Both deal with people and both include "thinking" and "feeling" (to borrow MBTI terminology), it's just that the focus and priorities are different. A Ti type would optimize for logical/objective consistency of actions and how they fit into larger frameworks and concepts (including interpersonal relationships), while an Fi type would optimize for personal/subjective consistency, seek and utilize opportunities for collaboration, and develop an acute awareness of how strong interpersonal bonds can influence, improve, and/or extend larger systems/organizations/institutions/etc. And perhaps a point of contrast with Ti would be that Fi types would regard developing intimate interpersonal bonds as an end-goal by itself, but I'm not really sure, as in theory, they should also be the masters of making use of these bonds to make other/greater things happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavebury
I agree that rational types, especially Ti and Fi ones, have the most rigid self-image and behaviors in general.
Freestyle riffing on the Fi description above, but I think I should be mostly on point.