Integral Types of Countries/Nations

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Originally Posted by FDG

But that's not what I meant at all. I exclusively meant that that guy & girl I posted are examples of ESTp-INFp GIVEN their ethnicity, not that their ethnicity well-represents those types.

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That's what I meant as well, we have no disagreement here. I personally believe there is not much difference between ethic representatives of the same type. But perhaps this only means you and I look at different things when focussing on people's types.

Take , for example, the pic Slater posted in reply to yours. Now that is what I consider an IEI, although at the 'harder' end of the the IEI spectrum in terms of softness vibe. The woman in the pic you posted, to me is outside that spectrum, but she is, to me, on the softer end of the EIE spectrum.

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Originally Posted by consentingadult

That's what I meant as well, we have no disagreement here. I personally believe there is not much difference between ethic representatives of the same type. But perhaps this only means you and I look at different things when focussing on people's types.

Take , for example, the pic Slater posted in reply to yours. Now that is what I consider an IEI, although at the 'harder' end of the the IEI spectrum in terms of softness vibe. The woman in the pic you posted, to me is outside that spectrum, but she is, to me, on the softer end of the EIE spectrum.

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African-American ISTj

http://imagenesfotos.com/wp-content/...el_jordan7.jpg

European ISTj

http://www.biografiasyvidas.com/biog...tos/stalin.jpg

American ESTp

http://scheirmad.files.wordpress.com...ptain-kirk.jpg

Klingon ESTp

http://www.wanderinggoblin.com/wp-co...-with-Sign.jpg

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Originally Posted by Cyclops

I'm presuming the Hollanders are have high brows.

afaik this is where definition of "high brow" and "low brow" comes from, apparently non-germanic people have lower brows, also non-germanic peoples are associated with being less intelligent or capable according to aspects of Nordic thought and such.

Anyway, random piece of information, whether it is useful or not.

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Clement Greenberg sounds like a germanic name to me. Personally I'm not a big fan of the modernists elitism.

Removed at User Request

Removed at User Request

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Originally Posted by consentingadult

of course I am ;)

The Netherlands, with their calvinist approach to things, is delta indeed. More in particular, one could say SLI (as in 'going Dutch'), and this to some extent still applies to th rural parts of out country. Of course, in cities like Amsterdam, IEE attitudes rule. Gay marriage, Red Light District, Weed and hasish rich in THC at every street corner, we've got it all! And lets not forget the ridiculous number of bicycles (=Si). IEE women in Volendam costume are so sexy!

http://www.stzk.nl/stzk/images/Verhu...%20(Small).jpg

PS. Brabant, the region where Jarno is from (I myself am from Holland proper) is more alpha, I believe more SEI.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRfluaMKoOY

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Originally Posted by 1981slater

European ISTj

http://www.biografiasyvidas.com/biog...tos/stalin.jpg

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You're such a dumbass.

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Originally Posted by somavision

YouTube - Police in Amsterdam - Harry Enfield and Chums - BBC comedy

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There you have it: a problem is not a problem until someone sees it as a problem. Other countries could learn a lot from us ;)

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Originally Posted by consentingadult

There you have it: a problem is not a problem until someone sees it as a problem. Other countries could learn a lot from us ;)

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indeed.

Removed at User Request

With regards to the topic on "Types of Country":

U.S.: Te-ESTj
Japan: An Alpha type which attempts to be a Delta type
China: Se-ISTj
Singapore: Ti-ISTj
Korea: Delta
Australia: ENFp
New Zealand: ISTp
Philippines: ESFj

This site seems to agree with a lot of what people are saying here. I find it fascinating.

Introduction into Socionics

"Macrotypes (Ethnic Unities)
Do socionic types describe only people, or also greater entities?

Starting from the XIX century, many historians wrote about “ethnic types”, about “national characters”. Under these “national characters” we mean traits cultivated in any particular nation for a very long historical period of many centuries; these traits allow distinguishing “our people” from “not our people”.

Lev Gumilev, a Russian historian, created a very detailed theory of birth, development and death of ethnic entities, whose existence, according to him, lasts for approximately 1000 – 1500 years. Thus, Italians represent a DIFFERENT ethnic entity than ancient Romans; Germans and Austrians represent DIFFERENT ethnic entities, even in spite of the common language; at the same time, Jews, even speaking various languages, represented ONE ethnic entity until recently; however, the Jewish nation in Israel has slightly different values and principles than the Jewish community in Europe and USA. The things that makes people one ethnic entity is often called “national character”.

Can this “national character” be described in terms of socionics? We have too little time to describe the details; let us just present preliminary conclusions (according to Victor DarkAngelFireWolf69, Alexander Boukalov and our own ideas). Americans: logical-intuitive extravert [ENTj]

Armenians: ethical-sensory extravert [ESFj]

Arabs: ethical-intuitive extravert [ENFj]

Argentina: ethical-sensory extravert [ESFj]

Australians: sensory-logical introvert [ISTp]

Azeri: sensory-ethical introvert [ISFp]

Belarussians: ethical-intuitive introvert [INFj]

Brazilians: sensory-ethical ...vert [XSFp]

Bulgarians: sensory-ethical introvert? [ISFp]

Canadians: logical (or ethical?)-intuitive introvert [INXj]

Chechens: sensory-logical extravert [ESTp]

Czekh: logical-intuitive introvert [INTj]

Chinese: logical-sensory introvert??? [ISTj]

Danish: ethical-sensory introvert? [ISFj]

English: logical-sensory extravert [ESTj]

Finns: sensory-logical introvert [ISTp]

French: ethical-sensory extravert [ESFj]

Georgians (Caucasus, not USA!): sensory-ethical extravert [ESFp]

Germans: logical-sensory introvert [ISTj]

Indians (Hindu, not American!): intuitive-ethical introvert? [INFp]

Irish: intuitive-ethical introvert ? [INFp]

Italians: sensory-ethical extravert [ESFp]

Jews (Europe, USA): intuitive-logical extravert [ENTp]

Jews (Israel): intuitive-ethical extravert [ENFp]

Koreans: ethical-sensory introvert? [ISFj]

Mexicans: intuitive-ethical introvert? [INFp]

Norwegians: logical-intuitive extravert [ENTj]

Poles: ethical-intuitive extravert [ENFj]

Portuguese: sensory-ethical introvert? [ISFp]

Romanians: intuitive-ethical extravert? [ENFp]

Russians: intuitive-ethical introvert [INFp]

Serbians: sensory-logical extravert [ESTp]

Spanish: intuitive-ethical extravert [ENFp]

Swedes: logical-intuitive introvert [INTj]

Swiss: ethical-sensory introvert [ISFj]

Turks: sensory-logical extravert [ESTp]

Ukrainians: ethical-sensory introvert [ISFj]

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Originally Posted by 1981slater

Roman Empire Ti-ESTp

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After some lectures about the ancient romans, I get a Gamma vibe. They invaded countries with their full power and showed their whole strength (Se maybe). But once their enemies surrendered, they immediately drew back, and started to cooperate with those who capitulated, unlike the 'beta' Nazis. They demonstrated also much Se, but they continued after they won and left scorched earth where they fought. They weren't even interested in any cooperation, the Nazis just wanted to conquer the area. The roman way of conquering (which was also brutal of course) appears rather like a 'hostile takeover' to me as we know it from the economical term.

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Originally Posted by MegaDoomer

After some lectures about the ancient romans, I get a Gamma vibe. They invaded countries with their full power and showed their whole strength (Se maybe). But once their enemies surrendered, they immediately drew back, and started to cooperate with those who capitulated, unlike the 'beta' Nazis. They demonstrated also much Se, but they continued after they won and left scorched earth where they fought. They weren't even interested in any cooperation, the Nazis just wanted to conquer the area. The roman way of conquering (which was also brutal of course) appears rather like a 'hostile takeover' to me as we know it from the economical term.

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Makes sense. Julius Caesar is reputed to have been an SEE, which makes sense, as I've noticed a trend of great leaders being in the same Quadra as their country (****** being EIE, the dual of LSI Germany, for example).

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Originally Posted by Krig the Viking

Julius Caesar is reputed to have been an SEE, which makes sense, as I've noticed a trend of great leaders being in the same Quadra as their country (****** being EIE, the dual of LSI Germany, for example).

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Yes, exactly. He's even one of the paragon SEEs in some russian sources. I wouldn't say the people of the roman empire were ILI (since I guess there is no state/nation on earth which could be called that) but why not something like ESI?

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Originally Posted by MegaDoomer

Yes, exactly. He's even one of the paragon SEEs in some russian sources. I wouldn't say the people of the roman empire were ILI (since I guess there is no state/nation on earth which could be called that) but why not something like ESI?

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I would've guessed LIE, but it sounds like you've studied the subject more than I.

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Originally Posted by MegaDoomer

Yes, exactly. He's even one of the paragon SEEs in some russian sources. I wouldn't say the people of the roman empire were ILI (since I guess there is no state/nation on earth which could be called that) but why not something like ESI?

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Sorry Mega, but...what does it mean? The "people of the roman empire" were mostly poor peasants, at least in its italian part (less so in greece and ex-magna-grecia). I don't think it's easy to determine their emergent sociotype in a bottom-up way. However, I agree with this:

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After some lectures about the ancient romans, I get a Gamma vibe. They invaded countries with their full power and showed their whole strength (Se maybe). But once their enemies surrendered, they immediately drew back, and started to cooperate with those who capitulated, unlike the 'beta' Nazis. They demonstrated also much Se, but they continued after they won and left scorched earth where they fought. They weren't even interested in any cooperation, the Nazis just wanted to conquer the area. The roman way of conquering (which was also brutal of course) appears rather like a 'hostile takeover' to me as we know it from the economical term.

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Obviously, I always thought the roman empire's expansion strategy was the best among the available choices, but I can't say I'm not biased XD

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I would've guessed LIE, but it sounds like you've studied the subject more than I.

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Caesar Augustus was LIE, Julius Caesar SEE. Scattered all around the website, you can find some good posts by Expat where he analyzes thoroughly these typings.

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Originally Posted by Krig the Viking

I would've guessed LIE, but it sounds like you've studied the subject more than I.

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Haha, not necessarily. I just got to know the roman empire a bit and the way they conquer. This attitude is different from the most other conquering nations. While others want to destroy the enemy completely, it's enough for them to crush their will/resistance and then let them become a part of the empire. Btw: Machiavelli and his books are also very Gamma in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by FDG

Sorry Mega, but...what does it mean? The "people of the roman empire" were mostly poor peasants, at least in its italian part (less so in greece and ex-magna-grecia). I don't think it's easy to determine their emergent sociotype in a bottom-up way.

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I actually think typing the people nation is fun, but not too useful at all. However, you get a kind of sterotype by that. I just wanted to suggest a type in the Gamma quadra since Krig said great leaders are often in the same quadra as their people. In fact, I can only guess. I know almost nothing about the citizens of the roman empire because history focuses on their administration, archtitecture and military.

[provide unverifiable opinion, pat self on back]

USA- LSE-Te, 3w4 so/sp (ESTJ)
UK - LIE-Ni, 8w9 sp/so (INTJ)
Japan- ESI-Fi, 3w2 so/sp (INTJ)
Canada- EII-Ne, 6w7 so/sx (INFP)
Italy- ESE-Si, 7w6 sp/sx (ENTP)
Spain- ESE-Fe, 7w8 sx/sp (ESTP)

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Originally Posted by Aleksei

Spain- ESE-Fe, 7w8 sx/sp (ESTP)

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Spain is a gamma SEE-Se nation. Even if I acknowledge ESE Fe is a very common type in the South, the obssession for religion, the way people despise science, the fact that very few people read books (and, those who do so usually read novels), etc etc make me conclude that SEE is the type which represents Spain. And, on the whole, SEE is the most common type around here.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...m-ideas-3.html

Yeah, SEE-Se 6w7 makes sense for Spain.

I was reading http://www.socioniko.net/en/articles/lytovs-intro3.html and realized they don't have Japan; I decided to figure out Japan's macro type.

There could be a lot of arguing over how they are punctual and orderly but secretly have a lot of undisclosed emotions etc. (Pulling this from a general tongue in cheek description of the type I think they are). So I opted to figure out what they are based on their relationships with other nations an line that up with reasoning that fits not for scientific, but rather layman's reasoning.

The survey asked who they (Japanese) would like to date, from foreign nations, numbers look something like this:

1. USA – 4,194

2. Italy – 3743

3. UK – 3,467

4. France – 3,249

5. Korea – 2,706

6. Spain – 1,535

7. Russia – 1,256

8. Germany – 1,195

9. Brazil – 396

10. China – 296

WARNING: Non English site. If you are paranoid don't go.
http://cache001.ranking.goo.ne.jp/cr...ROSXsBwdk_all/

So I typed them as ISFjs. Cross referencing DarkAngelFireWolf69's macro types we get the following relationships with ESI.

1. USA - (LIE): Duality

2. Italy – (SEE): Mirror

3. UK – (LSE): Semi Duality

4. France – (ESE): Contrasting

5. Korea – (ESI): Identity

6. Spain – (IEE): Supervisor

7. Russia – (IEI): Beneficiary

8. Germany – (LSI): Look Alike

9. Brazil – (SEx): Quasi/Mirror

10. China – (LSI): Look Alike

I simply matched the first to be the duality and let it unfold; turned out to be very fitting across the board. Though Mirror relationships are rather low ranked they are still in the same quadra and would therefore bear a curiosity; hence Italy's ranking. The rest were popular countries and lined up nicely. There is a sharp decline for Supervisor/Beneficiary (Half that of Identical Korea). Japan has had somewhat of a negative history with Germany, what with a world war leading to atomic surrender etc. Brazil and China are the largest sources of immigrant workers in Japan.

It seems the US and Japan have had a duality relationship for decades already and nobody is the wiser. It's face-palmingly obvious once you think about it. Japan has an air of honor, respect for traditions, conservative immigration policy, everyone looks like they spend an hour on their looks, proper service. America is accepting to new ideas and ventures and won Japan over through innovation, competition and productivity. Literally sweeping them off the ground into a sort of forced relationship.

Furthermore on the very front page of http://www.najc.ca/, Japanese/Canadian website it shows statistics about how Japanese intermarriage in Canada are among the highest of all Asian groups. CBC Radio also does occasional world pieces about this trend in both Canada and America. Their macro-types affect down to the base levels of society.

Remember: Japan has been for 60 years and is now, OCCUPIED by the US. They do not have their own military, their military is America's. The fact that such an occupation has had no problems, past or foreseeable, is outstanding. By contrast Canada's French wanted to separate from the rest of the English, and consider all of the former Soviet nations demanding independence.

Expanding this idea Britain as an ESTj, Canada an INFj, you can create an analogy of the world. Old Grandma Britain (Long live the Queen) has a very friendly duality relationship with one of her sons, Canada; kind of quiet and but very loyal who still drops by her house and makes sure she's alright. While the other son is a bit more of a go getter and decided to strike out on his own, has occasional arguments about doing what is conservative vs doing what is enterprising. The two brothers share a semi-dual relationship and get along swell. They join forces beat up the vandals savaging their mother's neighborhood (Europe). The one brother (America) saw that one of the girls in the gangs was not from the neighborhood, rather exotic and probably just misguided; broke her spirits and took her as a girlfriend. We end up seeing a sort ESTj-INFj ENTj-ISFj health club going on. Only a passing knowledge of history reveals how Britain has had nothing but problems from Europe, and I would wager my money on them eventually leaving the EU for a western union.

Buck up Gamma Delta Js. You embody 4 of the most powerful nations on earth, and potentially the "Western" empire.

it looks like a generic list of well-known, prestigious nations roughly ranked by economic prosperity.

so they're gamma introverts?

oh and THANK YOU FOR TYPING MY NATION AS HAVING NO LOGIC

Pre-modern Japan can be seen as stereotypically Delta rational I guess, particularly during the 200+ year Tokugawa/Edo period. For Modern Japan though, I may lean towards Alpha NT that still self-types as Delta NF (Eunice suggested this, and I think it works). Lots of Japanese people like to consider themselves to be emotionally restrained and overly polite (which they tend to be on average), but a part of that feels more like an external image or definition that they feel obligated to uphold; it's like they're trying to wear a mask of what they think Fi is but it's all done in a Merry sort of fashion.

The Japanese culture as a whole seems a lot more obviously E6 to me. A lot of how the Japanese people interact with others is based in a "what did he really mean" mentality, meaning that there's a lot of digging for subsurface character in people, trying to parse the other person's true intentions from their slight and subtle actions.

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Originally Posted by Galen

A lot of how the Japanese people interact with others is based in a "what did he really mean" mentality, meaning that there's a lot of digging for subsurface character in people, trying to parse the other person's true intentions from their slight and subtle actions.

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There are some aspects about Japanese culture that sound really appealing but I've heard this and it sounds complicated and annoying. How did you adjust/deal with it while you were over there?

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Originally Posted by FDG

so they're gamma introverts?

oh and THANK YOU FOR TYPING MY NATION AS HAVING NO LOGIC

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I'd say a lot of countries have taken their stupid pills lately.
But then again, being a type with strong T doesn't mean you aren't stupid, as we all know. . .

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Originally Posted by FDG

so they're gamma introverts?

oh and THANK YOU FOR TYPING MY NATION AS HAVING NO LOGIC

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Japan is colloquially known by a lot of Americans, and a particular Australian based critic, to be "Xenophobic dicks." Gamma SFs have that sort of "Us Vs Them" mentality. Quadra "verts" are hardly a fair comparison having only their "vertness" in common. The Logic arguement is really very immature, not being a T type does not exclude you from having any thinking at all. It simply means they are on the relational aspect of reality instead of the business aspect. They have the latter in abundance not because it is standalone but because is it properly counterbalanced by the former. I also didn't type Italy, the leading researcher in the field of Socionics, in one of the world's only established socionics research institutes did.

Commercial commenting on Japan: "Japan, a land of honor, a land of ritual, a land of sense, the only thing that doesn't make is their Television, *Rock Montage* Crazy Japanese everything*" Top Gear did a show in Japan and their behaviour is exactly what you would expect from a semi-duality relationship. How can a country full of so much BS still make pretense in all of their rituals. This is a prime example of ISFj.

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it looks like a generic list of well-known, prestigious nations roughly ranked by economic prosperity.

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That's exactly what it is. The peculiarity is the alignment of favouring. The US is ranked at the top (Duality), followed closely by Britain (Semi Dual) and finished off with Germany, China (Look alike, Quasi, Mirror)etc. Which aligns with typically accepted relationship ranking. (According to Socioniko table and matching various other calculations)


Consider also the distinct divide between US and Japan. From reading an article about "Herbivorous Males" (Google it) it spoke about how for a long time males in Japan were spoon fed relationships with co-workers, wives, family etc. This sounds exactly like an ENTj life support system. Everything a businessman needs was systematically provided by an ISFj system. Business thrives, technology booms.

The US is an E3, probably 3w4 with elements of 1 slowly shifting to elements of 7 over the last century. Its a dog eat dog world. Make it on business ethics, networking, profit, motivation. All of our relational needs (Fi needs) take the form of business. Self-help books, self-help seminars, self-improvement, pills, prescriptions, faceless X in organization Y, sheeple, bottom line, conglomerates, Fox news. You have a non-business need, there's a business for that. You need to make friends, Facebook; you need to lose weight, Jenny Craig; you need to do X, there's an app for that. The true embodiment of American ISFj-business is the 4/5 star hotel system. Everything you could possibly need, if the price is right. Mercenaries: Violence for profit, the two hallmarks of western society. Land of Opportunity; clean slate. You are defined by what you do and can do, not who you were. Originally built on ideals, conservative principles, founding fathers (E1) and now moving onto everything all at once, melting pot, everyone gets a chance, just try do it (E7). Not to say that opportunity is a bad thing, but that moving towards co-operations (E6) is better than inventing something to get ahead of the pack and stay ahead of the crash (E7).

Japan would naturally disintegrate into being overly business oriented (E6 to 3), while the US would shift in the reverse (E3 to 6). This feeds into their darkest historical times (disclaimer I only know a passing layman's knowledge of Japanese history so don't get upset) in the pre-WWII era where they decided to become expansionary. This was Japan's genocidal era, where they were disintegrating into E3, trying to prove themselves. Typically it was always like that, when they became achievement oriented instead of peace oriented they suffered setbacks, with the reverse being true. This accounts for Japan's explosion in the technological sector ever since US occupation. By accepting a partnership and having their E3 abilities blocked off (or accomplished) by a forced E3, they had only one place to move, to E9. Paraphrasing random Japanese pundit sources, once they became the embodiment of greed (back to 3) they suffered decline. Granted the recent disaster, its a natural disaster but the coincidence is staggering. After this "humbling" (a resetting back to 9) with the condition that they accept foreign aid (healthy 6 attitude) they will rebuild very quickly only to repeat the cycle.

I guess my point is that everyone has a point, and all of them are valid, and they all fit without any contradiction. It would not be a stretch to say that America probably has the lowest approval rating with a lot of countries, but for Japan it's still on top. In Canada everywhere outside of Toronto the US has huge approval ratings. While in Britain, their house is in Europe but their hearts and minds are in the west.

Huh. That's fascinating. I especially like the parallel with Britain and Canada. You've convinced me, Morbid.

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Originally Posted by Bardia

There are some aspects about Japanese culture that sound really appealing but I've heard this and it sounds complicated and annoying. How did you adjust/deal with it while you were over there?

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I think if you're just sympathetic and demonstrate concern in regard to how you act towards other people/how you come across to others, there shouldn't be too much of a problem.

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Originally Posted by Galen

Pre-modern Japan can be seen as stereotypically Delta rational I guess, particularly during the 200+ year Tokugawa/Edo period. For Modern Japan though, I may lean towards Alpha NT that still self-types as Delta NF (Eunice suggested this, and I think it works). Lots of Japanese people like to consider themselves to be emotionally restrained and overly polite (which they tend to be on average), but a part of that feels more like an external image or definition that they feel obligated to uphold; it's like they're trying to wear a mask of what they think Fi is but it's all done in a Merry sort of fashion.

The Japanese culture as a whole seems a lot more obviously E6 to me. A lot of how the Japanese people interact with others is based in a "what did he really mean" mentality, meaning that there's a lot of digging for subsurface character in people, trying to parse the other person's true intentions from their slight and subtle actions.

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Interesting stuff there. :thumbsup:

Muahahahahaha.

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Originally Posted by eSDe

Muahahahahaha.

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hi

Galen is resident Japanese expert. All heed the weeaboo on this important topic.

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Originally Posted by Galen

Pre-modern Japan can be seen as stereotypically Delta rational I guess, particularly during the 200+ year Tokugawa/Edo period. For Modern Japan though, I may lean towards Alpha NT that still self-types as Delta NF (Eunice suggested this, and I think it works). Lots of Japanese people like to consider themselves to be emotionally restrained and overly polite (which they tend to be on average), but a part of that feels more like an external image or definition that they feel obligated to uphold; it's like they're trying to wear a mask of what they think Fi is but it's all done in a Merry sort of fashion.

The Japanese culture as a whole seems a lot more obviously E6 to me. A lot of how the Japanese people interact with others is based in a "what did he really mean" mentality, meaning that there's a lot of digging for subsurface character in people, trying to parse the other person's true intentions from their slight and subtle actions.

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I've heard of research surveys that would suggest that Japanese individuals often consider themselves to have an entirely different sense of themselves depending on their social context (such as who they are with or what they are doing), as opposed to a Western individual's tendency to consider him or herself unchanging regardless of context. Have you observed this at all?

OLIVIA SAYS SO IT MUST BE TRUE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLjC8SM_MnI

yeah, ESE is good

looks like you're stupid

SEE and confirm.