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Let's type some nations...or stereotypes!
Spain - ENFp :Ne: :Fi:
Italy - ESTp :Se: :Ti:
Germany - ISTj :Ti: :Se:
USA - ENTj :Te: :Ni:
England - ESTj :Te: :Si:
Canada - INTj :Ti: :Ne:
Japan - ENTp :Ne: :Ti:
France - ISFp :Si: :Fe:
Norway - INFp :Ni: :Fe:
Russia - ESTp :Se: :Ti:
Australia - ISTp :Si: :Te:
China - INTp :Ni: :Te:
I <3 this forum :)
(everybody make sure to stick around for next month when we'll be typing ****** and Einstein!)
LoL ... yeah, this forum never gets old.
Russia is :Ni: :Fe:Quote:
Originally Posted by 1981slater
Spain might be :Ne: :Fi: , but it might also be :Fe: :Ni:
Italy - :Se: :Fi:
Japan - an extraverted country???
I'm for :Fe: :Si: for France
Norway strikes me as a Delta Quadra country, either :Te: :Si: or :Si: :Te: , but I'm not sure.
hmmm.... Perhaps it just never gets new? :PQuote:
Originally Posted by rmcnew
When I first encountered the idea that Sweden is INTj, I didn't understand what those Russian socionists had in mind (my own guess would have been ISXj for Sweden). But when I saw a very interesting TV documentary/discussion program about Swedish mentality (consisting of seven 30 minutes sessions) all the pieces suddently fit together and it all made perfect sense. The Russian socionists were right -- Sweden really is an INTj country.
what the hell does any of this mean?
Uhh, no.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1981slater
Although I don't claim to know exactly, if you've been to a foreign country the differences are obvious.Quote:
Originally Posted by niffweed17
if somebody can show me an example of duality between foreign countries and an example of a foreign country's weak functions, i might consider assigning socionic types to foreign countries.
I don't think that's what it is meant, obviously.Quote:
Originally Posted by niffweed17
Countries have a different "feel" or "social atmosphere" or "unspoken rules" or whatever. As has been noted, in countries such as France people generally value dressing well much more than in the US. So it's valid to say that France values :Si: + :Fe: more than the US.
Also, try finding a bookshop - a real bookshop - in a Belgian town. Then try finding a bookshop in a town of the same size in the UK. I can assure you that it is infinitely easier to find it in the UK than in Belgium. So, it is fair to say that the UK values :Te: more than Belgium.
In some countries, if you, as a young man, don't obviously ogle every woman who walks in front of you, you are gay. In others, to do that is seen as rude and showing an embarrasing lack of self-control. So the former value EP and the latter, IJ temperaments.
Etc.
I've said before that types don't translate ideally to nations or groups, which are designed to be self-sufficient and expansive -- as opposed to people, which are designed to cooperate and be interdependent. So the logic of intertype relations doesn't carry over well.
So you're right in questioning intertype relations between groups or countries. There may be a few intriguing examples, but far too many exceptions to take it very seriously. Sympathies between countries shift a lot as things go in and out of fashion.
You can see in Russia, for example, a distinct rejection of the Anglo-Saxon life philosophy and governing style. They are very sensitive about it and find a :Te: -based worldview almost evil. On the other hand, Russians as a group have always been sympathetic towards Germans and Germans culture (their "activators") despite the world war (!).
The English are prone to honor all sorts of useless traditions just because they "go back a long time."
Italy and other :Se: countries have a macho culture where men look at women's butts and whistle as they walk past, or walk up to them to offer to take them somewhere. Sex is discussed constantly, even between strangers. At the same time, the Italians can't overcome corruption, because :Fi: habits (informal solutions and personal connections) are built into the system at every level.
Strict observance of procedures and "faith in the system" are built into most logical cultures. Americans, for example, are incredibly trusting of organizations and procedures and are routinely deceived in ethical countries because of their gullibility and assumption that strangers will take care to keep their word and only say things if they intend to do them.
In Spain and other countries with strong :Fe: , people routinely ask strangers about their relationships and discuss their own relationship woes. This is taboo for other cultures where this is seen as being "personal." Americans ask strangers about their work and profession and go into great detail about their own activities, which is taboo in places like Russia, where this is perceived as being too "personal." Each culture perceives some information aspects as being more personal than others.
I think there are good reasons to apply socionics to large groups like nations, but it has its limits.
Also, as Expat said, :Te: is usually associated with the availability of useful information like "how to reserve a hotel" or how to get anything done. The English and Americans are kings at this -- just look at instruction manuals from the U.S. where everything is spelled out "for idiots." Here in Ukraine people are always shocked and impressed by these instruction manuals, but end up laughing at them. In Ukraine there is a chronic lack of useful information at every level. It's just assumed that if you need to know something, you will somehow automatically know it or will ask someone who will tell you. In the U.S., it is extremely easy to find out anything. Every single organization or activity is surrounded by accessible useful information in the form of informative websites, instruction manuals, handbooks, broschures, etc. etc. Not so in most other countries!
Typing nations seriously is very difficult or impossible, because national values change.
Spiral Dynamics stipulates that USA is currently ORANGE ; USA will seem ENTj... until shifting to the next level, GREEN ?
For example, even vMemes (PURPLE, BLUE, GREEN, TURQUOISE) are introverted by nature (i.e. stability-oriented) and odd vMemes (BEIGE, RED, ORANGE, YELLOW) are extroverted by nature (i.e. initiative-oriented).
Countries which seem E-types are possibly RED or ORANGE and those which seem I-types are possibly BLUE or GREEN.
http://www.12manage.com/methods_grav..._dynamics.html
No problem :PQuote:
Originally Posted by he died with a felafel
ESFP: modern Greece, Athens, Palestine, South Korea
INTP: Sparta, India,
ESTJ: Persian Empire, Iran, England,
France is more SEI than ESE, because although french people are sociable, they're not very initiating...
Except, Sweden often seems to be typed as LII.Quote:
Originally Posted by he died with a felafel
Norway does not strike me as Delta either, I could say ESFJ.
Are you trying to type nations into quadras or are you merely claiming nations for quadras?Quote:
Originally Posted by he died with a felafel
jaQuote:
Originally Posted by Logos
In as far as nations have types and this topic is not overdone, I would say that England is definately very delta, types like ENFps and ESTjs are looked upon very favorably there...ISTps and INFjs a little bit less, I think they (the English)value being outgoing and "bubbly" very much now contrary to the former reserve they had in the past.
:Si: rules there and most of Europe. England is like :Ne: heaven. :Se: is not valued there at all and it has always sort of confused me how much their people expect their government to provide for them and make their lives more comfortable in terms of welfare, housing etc. There is just far less "up by your own boot straps" thinking there and i get a sense like i am living in the past or something even though aspects of the country is quite modern.
The USA is not ENTj in my opinion though it seems that way. I think :Fe: is very prized and looked upon more favorably in the U.S than nearly anywhere else... hence why people like Oprah Winfrey are so successful in the USA. Oprah Winfrey would not get very far in England.
On the :Ti: / :Te: issue. When I first went to study in England I seriously (yes it is true)wondered how anyone learnt or knew anything there. The information sources you need is very much there but you have to search for it proactively and the search for it never stopped feeling to me like the search for a needle in a haystack ...information is not sort of put upon you neatly packaged like in the U.S.
I think IXFps in particular would find it far easier to be more academically successful in the USA because in the USA you are sort of bombarded with information which is somewhat analysed and the connections between things made clear in a very structured way for you. In England and in their educational institutions in particular, it feels to me like you are given little pieces of information which you must go away and put together yourself and decide what is important and what isn't more independently. They also seem to value on the spot problem solving/thinking more and their people just seem to read far more in general...bookshops everywhere in even the smallest towns like Expat more or less said. The USA is probably most beta/gamma but I think it is probably a more diverse place values/quadra wise than most other countries.
USA is schizophrenic...
Here in Italy the most valued types are definitely ENTx in most situations, the least valued is probably INFp.
As far as overall type:
Norther Italy - ESFp
Center - ISFp
South - ISFj
Right now the US is a psychopathic ENFj.
And being led by an ESTp president who is upsetting the INFj hippies and protesters.Quote:
Originally Posted by discojoe
There have been many threads about Bush where I claimed he is ESTp but majority always came to conclusion that he is either Te or Fe dominant. I'm still not sure. Good arguments were thrown which made me seriously reconsider his type.Quote:
Originally Posted by Logos
Anyways about Scandinavia...Finland is often considered ISTp. So is Japan btw. I'm not sure about Finland's type. I know that in Finland engineering as a profession is highly valued (way more than e.g. business, arts or pure science). Also I know that if you have to actually read a manual or ask an advice before you can do something you are a failure by definition. American style manuals are totally laughed at. Heavy drinking is also quite usual here. I can see how Si and Te is at least somehow manifested and of course Finnish people are not known for being emotionally expressive or talkative (especially when you first meet them).
And Finland is not technically part of Scandinavia. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by XoX
Well yes if you use the minimalist definition based on geography only Sweden and Norway are :) I just kind of naturally think of all the so called Nordic countries (i.e. Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark, Iceland) when I talk about "Scandinavia".Quote:
Originally Posted by Logos
And Denmark technically is a part of Scandinavia.Quote:
Originally Posted by XoX
Ok..let's define Scandinavia (or different "Scandinavias") more accurately. It is not such a simple and well defined area. The references are from Wikipedia:Quote:
Originally Posted by Logos
The minimalist definition is based purely on geography and covers Sweden and Norway and a little part of Finland:
"The Scandinavian Peninsula is a geographic region in northern Europe, consisting principally of the mainland territories of Norway and Sweden. The name Scandinavian is derived from Scania, a region at the southernmost extremity of the peninsula. A small section of northwestern Finland is also on the peninsula and on its isthmus."
The definition you are talking about comes into effect when you add some cultural interpretation to geographical interpretation and adds Denmark to the mix:
"Scandinavia is a historical and geographical region centered on the Scandinavian Peninsula in Northern Europe and includes the three kingdoms of Denmark, Norway and Sweden."
This can be again expanded by including Iceland (and Faroe Islands):
"In linguistics and cultural studies, the definition of Scandinavia is expanded to include the areas where Old Norse was spoken and where the North Germanic languages are now dominant. As a linguistic and cultural concept, Scandinavia thus also includes Iceland and the Faroe Islands."
This can be again be expanded by including Finland:
"As a cultural and historical concept, Scandinavia can include Finland as well, often with reference to the nation's long history as a part of Sweden. Although Finland is culturally closely related to the other Scandinavian countries, the Finns form a distinct linguistic and ethnic group, with a Finno-Ugric population that has incorporated features from both Eastern and Western Europe."
I usually don't make a big difference between the term "Nordic Countries" and "Scandinavia" as Scandinavia cannot be that accurately defined but Nordic countries can:
"Although it depends on context which countries are considered Scandinavian, the term the Nordic countries is used unambiguously for Norway, Sweden, Denmark (including the Faroe Islands and Greenland), Finland (including Åland) and Iceland."
Moral of the story, it should not be easy for Scandinavia to just be claimed for Delta without a case being made.
Ireland: ESFj
Isn't Ireland normally typed as IEI? What makes you say ESE?
The only instance of "normally" was Dmitri Lytov. But if I think differently should I just go along with it? Anyway, the Irish people (both those of Ireland and the remnant Irish culture in New England America) definitely have an :Fe: element, but I do not believe that it is Creative-:Fe:. Most of the Irish people who I have met have been big on Creative-:Si: in order to make visitors and friends feel like they are at home. They are also the sort of gossip-hens that is very similar to the characterization of ESEs. The only way I can figure out how Ireland got typed as IEI is the conjured up romantic image of the Emerald Isle and the assumption that they would be conflictors with England (often typed as LSE). I just do not see the :Ni: in Ireland.Quote:
Originally Posted by snegledmaca
I did notice that when I was in Paris.Quote:
Originally Posted by machintruc
Good one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Logos
Don't talk about your dual like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by discojoe
Hello again.
Now it looks obvious to me that USA is ENTp:
Role :Se: people trying to look so (not to expose their weaknesses in the quality of outsiders), but such is not in an emergency situation is so - "I know how little there, but this is really just you get on a full programme
Perhaps being bully makes USA feel safer
PoLr :Fi: people on it accumulates information, but not sure of its capacity, these principles should be more in words than in deeds because decisive action on their own 2 - making functions and chaos in the experience of 4 - and functions. Sometimes this person may exercise the functions of a rare stubbornness, conservatism and resentment: it may itself understands that needed improvement, but on their own they are not in a position to provide. To criticize this feature useless - helping here only target boards, including already ready solution.
Learning Socionics is a way to fight against one's hidden agenda. USA tends to classify people into groups in order to be able to know what to expect from them
Hidden agenda :Fe: "To be popular" USA alternates success with failure
Germany is ISTp >>>>>>>>> ISTj
Definitely Fi-valuing with Fe PoLR (if anything)
Hey, and they make the best cars - how much more ISTp can it get?? :p
No. Definitely not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kim
My local pub is probably Delta -> ISTp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1981slater
wtf?
If you haven't lived there, you can't know. The ISTj crap is all based onQuote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus
stereotypes. The lifestyle there is not as rigid and opinionated as people assume. It's also not as efficient as people assume.
Edited to add: It could be another type, but it's not ISTj. I would not have survived there for 25 years if it were...
Haha, for some reason this makes me think of a pub I used to frequent for free poker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops